How Leaders Undermine Their Own Authority

14:52Peter Bregman:Peter, I do agree with you that he needs to learn how to play the game of office politics a little bit better. But I think that's very hard to do against someone who's not playing the game of work, too. His competitor in this situation, you know, is someone who's not doing the actual work and only doing the office politics. And that seems like a rigged system. So I really understand his frustration.

15:16Dan McGinn:So you're saying he's a show horse, not a workhorse? Yeah. And you want it to be both? Exactly.

15:22Alison Beard:Yeah, I want both of them to be both. So it's probably like one of them is a show horse and not a work horse, and the other one might be a work horse and not a show horse. But imagine that you actually start to play the game, and I don't even really think of it in this negative way of playing the game. I think if you're going to work with a whole group of people, it's really useful to develop the ability to create real substantive relationships with the people around you, especially also the people in power. And then what if you did that and actually brought him in? and didn't think of him as an opponent and didn't think of him as someone you're working against, but thinking of someone that you could collaborate with in order to help him to be successful and you also to be successful.

16:04Peter Bregman:I don't think this guy needs any help being successful.

16:07Alison Beard:You know, he probably does need some help being successful, at least with his colleagues. So it doesn't sound like he needs help being successful with the higher ups, but it does seem like there's a movement against him.

16:19Dan McGinn:I do wonder whether this almost becomes a question of values for the person who wrote the letter. If this is an organization that really prizes and rewards glibness and polish and doesn't necessarily respect deep technical expertise, I wonder whether this might be a situation where there's kind of a values mismatch.

16:44Alison Beard:I would push back a little bit and say, is it that you're frustrated by this one person and it's safer to say, well, this, you know, this culture will never appreciate what's really, really important anyway. Or, you know, and is that true or is it something you do to protect yourself from, you know, the challenge that you're facing with this guy and feeling like you don't have the skills, you know, to sort of operate in this environment in a way that can both leverage your technical skills and also have you seen by leadership. And here's a feeling that I have also about people who want to leave a situation because they feel like they can't be effective in it or change it.

17:31Alison Beard:To me, that's the worst time to leave an organization because your risk of the consequences of failure are zero because you are about to leave anyway. But if you choose to stay, you could take real risks with people. You could do what you believe is right. You could take risks to show up the way you've always wanted to show up, which is probably very, very scary. But the consequences of failure, which would at worst be firing, are where you would have ended up anyway.

18:04Peter Bregman:From my perspective, this guy could be unstoppable if he applies his technical expertise to his work as he's already doing, and then he learns how to become more visible in the right way. So I think what I disagree with you on, Peter, is that he should learn from this colleague who seems to be doing it the wrong way. I think what he should do is build those skills that you're talking about, but in a way that feels honest. And I think that that's not by ignoring the problems on your team and taking only the pretty slides to the higher ups. You know, it's by taking those pretty slides, explaining exactly how the work was done and crediting everyone else on the team for it.

18:50Alison Beard:I love that. And where we might disagree is I think he could still learn from this guy without learning the bad stuff with the good stuff. I think people aren't all good or all bad. So there's some things this guy does where he's very skilled and there's some things where he's obnoxious and a value mismatch. And this might be, by the way, not a values mismatch with the organization. It might just be a values mismatch with this guy. And yet, even with someone whose values you totally disagree with, maybe he's all brown-nosing, but he probably does some things that's worth looking at and going, huh, you know, what's he doing to develop those relationships?

19:28Alison Beard:And how can I learn to develop those relationships in the same way while also bringing the substance and the authenticity and everything that I believe is important to me and my values and creating the kind of workplace I actually want to be in?

19:43Peter Bregman:I think we all probably agree that he should focus more on himself than on this pier.

19:50Dan McGinn:Swim in your own lane.

19:52Peter Bregman:Exactly. Yeah. Dan's favorite piece of advice.

19:55Dan McGinn:The piece of this that worries me is the brown noser seems like he's on the fast track and it seems like there is a reasonable chance that he will end up the boss of this department. And our letter writer thinks he's a charlatan. That's a really strong word to use. That's a really strong position. If this person does become the boss, that's going to be a pretty tough situation.

20:16Peter Bregman:I agree because they are swimming in the same lane, right? This person does or doesn't do but is supposed to do the same work he does. So I think if the organization continues to reward him, even if our letter writer gets better at all the things we're talking about, that's a huge red flag. Yeah.

20:33Alison Beard:And I think if he becomes the boss, that's a total game changer because if suddenly you're reporting to this person and you have zero respect for them, that's harder to live with than if you're a colleague to this person and you're watching them, you know, get an advantage that you, you know, believe has no foundation to.

20:52Dan McGinn:We've published research that shows that among the traits or characteristics that an employee want in their boss, one of the most important ones is the boss has to have the ability to actually do the job. We tend to be less happy if we think the person above us lacks the chops to actually do the substance of the work. And that's really what the situation is. This charlatan is not the boss yet, but that trajectory seems to be what's driving a lot of the angst for our letter writer.

21:19Alison Beard:You know, Dan, you made a really interesting point in the last question about being public. And I think that applies in this situation also, which is, you know, so let's say the person goes to a meeting and then doesn't share anything about it. You could always email this person and copy everybody on the team and say, how did the meeting go? Can you give us any specifics? So, you know, a way of publicizing the situation in a non-confrontational way, but in a way that makes it harder for him to not share what happened in that meeting. Rather than whisper it in the halls, publicly ask the question so that he would have a hard time not responding.

22:06Peter Bregman:So what are we telling the guy with the brown-nosing colleague?

22:10Dan McGinn:So first, we recognize that where one person sees a brown-noser, another person sees a savvy political operator. As distasteful as our letter writer finds this person's behavior, clearly this brown-nosing, non-technical employee has the ability to connect with people. He's persuasive. He's ambitious. It's going to be uncomfortable to try to lean into these behaviors that a technical person who values technical skill above all else finds so distasteful. But we do think trying to find the learning opportunity here is really the first step. The thing that gives us the most pause is when he calls the colleague a charlatan.

22:52Dan McGinn:That suggests there's a values conflict here. And in the long term, there is a chance this person will become the boss of the department. And if that happens, that's a game changer. And at that point, it probably would be time to look for a new job. But for now, we think staying in the organization and trying to learn what you can from this political operator is probably the best course.

23:14Peter Bregman:And now for our last ineffective leader. Dear HBR, a year ago, I joined a startup. My boss is brilliant at his job and a great mentor. He's also extremely prone to office gossip and politics. I'm not comfortable sharing my personal opinions about other people at the office. When he vents about members of the leadership team, I find it demoralizing. Some of his comments suggest that our co-workers are unprofessional or incompetent. Other comments get personal. He might talk about someone's style of dress or love life. I don't respond and try to stick to discussing the tasks at hand. I think he realizes why I withhold my opinion, but it hasn't deterred him.

23:55Peter Bregman:Maybe he feels that as a professional I should be able to handle it. In fact, I sometimes get the impression that my lack of reaction frustrates him. When it comes to interacting with the team that reports to me, he prides himself on being transparent. But that translates to him sharing more information that I think is necessary. For example, he offers his personal opinions on broader business decisions. This leads the group into an us-versus-them mentality, which I'm unable to effectively steer them away from. It's hurting their morale. I'm trying to set boundaries with him and my group. I know I can give him candid feedback on certain matters, but the way he gossips and denigrates others and gets emotional in conversations, it makes it very difficult for me to trust or respect him.

24:39Peter Bregman:It also makes it hard for me to stay engaged in my work. What should I do?

24:44Alison Beard:My reaction is there's, first of all, this is hard. There's a power dynamic. There's, you know, he's a man. He's the boss. he's it creates a there's a role and rank and societal dynamic that's I just want to reference and say it's hard to work with right I mean this is a a challenging situation and position

25:07Dan McGinn:I wonder if there's a way especially given the gender dynamic here she can take advantage of the fact that we're living in a time when things that seemed like they might have been okay five or 10 years ago in terms of a personal comment probably aren't okay now. When the boss is talking about the way someone dresses or talking about their love life, there's really not a place for that in the office. And I wonder if alerting him to this in a caring and protective way might not only help solve her problem, but also protect the boss from saying something stupid that might come back to hurt him.

25:45Alison Beard:A hundred percent in agreement with you. And it's hard for me to tell the relationship that she has with her boss. One thing that I noticed was that in the question, she says, I'm not comfortable, you know, sharing her personal opinions or something like that. I kind of want her sharing her opinions with him a little more. And rather than withhold her opinion, you know, when she feels uncomfortable, I think there might be room here to be able to help him out, to be able to say, you know, it kind of makes me uncomfortable when you share that. Or I like that person. Or, you know, I don't know exactly what the boss is saying and how she should respond.

26:23Alison Beard:But especially with her team, I would say, hey, I'm trying to run my team a certain way. And I want them feeling really good about each other. So I want us to be really careful. And I'd love your help and being really careful about what you say in front of them about each other, because that to me kind of hurts the morale I'm trying to create on my team. So be willing to speak up, not in a way that shames him, right? That's hard, but finding your voice to create the boundaries without shame. Let him know what you're uncomfortable with.

26:55Peter Bregman:Yeah. I mean, I think there's a real opportunity for reverse mentoring here, Right.

27:00Alison Beard:Yeah.

27:00Peter Bregman:By trying to shut him down or change the subject or walk away when he's trying to gossip. I feel like that really misses the point. You know, he's trying to sort of establish more trusting, more intimate, you know, in an office setting relationship with her. And I think that her response to that should be to not gossip with him or engage in what he's trying to do, but just sort of say, hey, hey, so help me understand the problem that you're having with this person. You know, I didn't really see it that way. Or, oh, wow, okay, I see that underlying issue. Maybe next time with him we can address it in this way.

27:40Peter Bregman:You know, specific comments like you're talking about, Dan, love life, dress, et cetera. Maybe she should shut down in a friendly way. But I think there might also be real work conflicts that she can help him with in this context.

27:53Alison Beard:I think that's absolutely right. Right. And I think part of the question before she does that or in, you know, as she thinks about doing that is to ask, why is he sharing with you? Like, what's he like? Is he looking for connection? Is he trying to build his own confidence? What's the point? Now, I wouldn't necessarily talk to him about that, but to understand that because you could shift the dynamic in part by giving him what he needs, but in a cleaner way.

28:21Dan McGinn:That's a fascinating idea. I tend to think of the motivation for gossip is to kind of show off that you're in the know and enjoy information with another person. You saw it as a potential attempt at bonding. And I think there's research that says people who use inappropriate language in the workplace are sometimes doing it to try to bond with the other person because it's a minor rule breaking kind of thing. Gossiping is something you're not supposed to do in a company. The boss might be doing it as an attempt to show, hey, you know, I want to be close to you. It's a misguided and it's not the greatest behavior, but at least it's a benevolent kind of motivation to it.

28:59Yeah, we've actually published articles about the fact that gossip can be good when it's used to share information that's important and even spread it through back channels if it needs to be spread that way.

29:11Peter Bregman:And also, as I mentioned before, to sort of indirectly surface conflicts. if it's not done in a negative way that's denigrating people. Unfortunately, it sounds like he's doing it in that sense. And so what she needs to do is steer him away from that bad kind of gossip into the good kind of gossip because it is great to be able to share information with your boss and also to let him vent to you once in a while when he's really frustrated with something because then you can problem solve with him.

29:38Alison Beard:You know, and you just made me think, Allison, that when he's venting to you, one specific language that you can use is to say, hey, I get it. And that's really frustrating. But just so you know, you should not share that with anybody except for me. And that's a subtle way of saying like, you know, without shame to say like, I get that you're angry, but don't go talking. That's going to hurt you if you go talking around, you know, he'll begin to get the signals of what's okay to talk about and what's not.

30:06Peter Bregman:She also doesn't want to be his confidant anymore. She is uncomfortable with it. So while we are encouraging her to push her comfort zone, at some point, you know, she doesn't want to be having as intimate a relationship with him as he seems to want. So how does she handle that?

30:23Alison Beard:That's right. So maybe what she could say is a version of, well, I completely understand that you're venting. Definitely don't talk about this outside the room. It even makes me uncomfortable. Right. So you're able to kind of say like still be in relationship with him, still not shame him, say it's really not something you ever want to share. And I don't even like hearing it. And it signals really clearly this is something that's really out of boundary.

30:49Peter Bregman:And it doesn't seem that she has clearly articulated that yet. She says she senses that he understands her discomfort, but she hasn't flat out told him she's really uncomfortable.

31:02Alison Beard:I think she seems to be avoiding having that conversation and it's a difficult conversation. And I think it's one of those difficult conversations that she should just have. So the absence of a conversation doesn't really communicate strongly enough, especially when someone is in a blind spot. And this sounds like it's his blind spot. And so this is a time not to be subtle. And, you know, again, one of the things that I talk about in Leading with Emotional Courage is how to start a really hard conversation, which is lead with the punchline. So one way to do it is to actually sit down, not during one of those comments, but to say, hey, I want to talk to you about some comments that I've heard you say that make me uncomfortable.

31:41Alison Beard:Boom. You've like opened up the conversation. You've said it right at the beginning. And then to say, I want to give you some examples. I know you don't mean it badly, but I don't know that you know the impact that it has. And I think this might be a blind spot and I want to share it with you. So be super direct and be caring as you're super direct, But don't make the assumption that when you're uncomfortable, he realizes it because that's probably not happening.

32:07Dan McGinn:Let me underline something here. You know, she says in the first line, my boss is brilliant at his job and a great mentor. You know, he has a weakness and it's a weakness that on some days might be driving her crazy. But it seems like in the overall context here, this one seems completely fixable.

32:24Alison Beard:And if you think about the two other questions that we've had, both of them were much more difficult in that way. One, indecisiveness, his goodwill might be there, but it's very, very hard to shift from indecisiveness to clear decisiveness. And the other problem around being political and maneuvering and unsubstantive, that's also a very difficult thing to resolve and solve. This is really clear. And in terms of offering advice as to how to handle it, you could create some very clear and simple boundaries.

32:59Dan McGinn:How big a problem is it when he makes clear that he doesn't agree with business decisions that are made? Is a boss supposed to fall in line and sort of stay with the company line after a decision is made?

33:10Alison Beard:You know, ultimately, when you're making this business decision, you could disagree as much as you want to. But when the decision is made and you walk out of that room, you walk out of that room as though you own the decision itself and it's yours. And the worst thing that you can do in terms of productivity, in terms of collective and aligned action moving forward, in terms of the culture, is to walk out of that room and go, well, I disagree with the decision, but we're going to disagree and commit. That is building both tension and discord between parts of the organization, which is one of the things that gets in the way of organizations moving forward most profoundly.

33:49Alison Beard:So I would say that's a really serious issue. And I would say when he walks out of the room, having made the decision with whomever he made the decision with, he's got to own it.

34:00Dan McGinn:Peter, I think you're right about that. Business is a team sport. And I think for our letter writer, if she can find a polite and respectful opportunity to say that she thinks her boss is hurting her team when he publicly voices his dissent, it will take some courage. But I think it's something she should raise. So Allison, what are we telling the woman with the gossipy boss?

34:22Peter Bregman:So we think she should understand why he wants to gossip with her. Is he trying to build a more trusting relationship? Is he trying to get her feedback on difficult situations? Does he really just want to vent and figure out whether she can help him in a way that feels comfortable for her? We think that the idea of walking away or refusing to engage might be a mistake because it's really an opportunity for reverse mentoring. She can push back, not in a way that shames him, but that does explain her position and her perspective, also tell him when he's making her uncomfortable and might make others uncomfortable.

35:00Peter Bregman:Really, her ultimate goal should be to correct the bad kind of gossip and steer him to more productive problem-solving.

35:08Dan McGinn:Peter, thanks for helping us find solutions for these people and finding a more effective way forward.

35:13Alison Beard:It was really great, really fun talking with you guys. Thank you.

35:19Peter Bregman:That was Peter Bregman, the founder and CEO of the executive coaching firm Bregman Partners. Peter's the author of the 2018 book, Leading with Emotional Courage. And he's the co-author of the 2021 book, You Can Change Other People. He was speaking with Dear HBR hosts, Alison Beard and Dan McGinn. HBR on Leadership will be back next Wednesday with another handpicked conversation from Harvard Business Review. If this episode helped you, share it with your friends and colleagues and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening right now. While you're there on the app, consider leaving us a review.

36:02Peter Bregman:And when you're ready for more podcasts, articles, case studies, books, and videos with the world's top business and management experts, find it all on hbr.org. This episode was produced by Kurt Nickish and me, Amanda Kersey. On Leadership's team includes Maureen Hoke, Rob Eckhart, Erica Trexler, Ramsey Kabaz, Nicole Smith, and Anne Bartholomew. Our music is by Koma Media. Thanks for listening. Thank you.