Make a Mid-Career Industry Change with Confidence

25:40And she made so much progress because of the focus. So that weak focus really allowed her to get a ton of emails out. It really allowed her to get interviews set up, informational interviews. And so all of that progress fed her. And she was able to move into a role at Amazon, leveraging the project management experience that she has, she's still there and happy.

26:15Amy Bernstein:So Nina, making this leap requires that you understand what's driving you so that you can tell an honestly compelling story. So with that in mind, I'd love to read the question from the listener who inspired this episode. She works at a school where she develops the curriculum and coaches teachers. So let me read what she asked. She says,

27:06Amy Bernstein:earn the primary income for my family of five with three kids in elementary and middle school. So I can't afford to start in an entry-level position or take time off for retraining. I feel stuck in my field and would love advice on navigating this change. Okay. There's a lot going on there. There is a lot going on there. And the first thing I have to say is I can really empathize with this particular listener because so many people enter careers thinking that it's going to be one thing and then realizing that it's something else, right? First of all, I commend the listener to be able to notice and say that they're ready for that change and that they've identified some really good transferable skills because, yes, that is the first stage, right?

27:56And I would push the listener to think about what other soft skills they bring to bear because there's probably a number of other things that they bring to the table. What is scary is to think about, I could go to this industry and go to that industry, right? So she's named several other places that she's not sure how to get into. My suggestion is to say, well, let's look at the industries and let's talk about the roles, right? Let's actually let the industry go for a minute. And let's talk about what you think you want to be doing all day long, right? Right. Because it is not industry that makes us happy at what we do.

28:35It's what we're doing and who we're engaging with all day long that brings us some element of joy in our work. And so let's get clarity on role first. So let's talk about different kinds of roles and let's have conversations with people who are in different kinds of roles. I would call that easy networking because people like to talk about what they do, and you're not asking them for a job. You're asking them to share what their day is like, and you can find folks who are able to do that. Once you do that, then you can start to narrow down and say, ah, this is the title that I think I'm after.

29:12And then you can say, then what industry do I think I want to do that in?

29:18Amy Bernstein:Right? And let's prioritize. You've got, you know, this particular listener identified several. Well, let's prioritize each one and why there's some pull towards that particular industry. And so let's pick your top one and let's just begin the process of exploring that industry. Let's take a look at job descriptions using the role that we've identified in that industry that we've now prioritized. And let's begin to think about what it looks like shaping the story and the narrative for that space. So you could see that it really is about taking one step at a time and not looking at the big challenge of a change, but carving it down into these little steps that help you get clarity.

30:05Amy Bernstein:So our listener, she mentions that she has three kids and she is the primary breadwinner. How does that affect your guidance to her? So I'm listening to that really carefully because I know that in the process of job change, there's going to be a lot of fear, right? The fear of I've got to support my family will show up multiple times in this process. So I have to make that listener feel safe in this transition. It's interesting because when we are moms and we have children, the fear of making a move at that juncture is harder, right? And so I am thinking about one individual who really needed to make a shift because she was just incredibly unhappy where she was.

31:03And there was a mental toll to that that actually impacted how she showed up at home, right? And so there was some other aspect that we could look at that gave her the focus and the means to look at staying as a risky thing to do, right? So for this particular individual, we were able to think about her challenge in a different way. Then it was, you still have a family to raise. You still have children at home. So maybe doing this work in the evenings is going to be a little bit challenging, right? Because you may not have the freedom to stay focused in the evenings with kids moving around. So it was sort of, are there a couple of days where you might have the ability to go in a little bit later?

31:57Kids are dropped off at school. You can at least find an hour and let that be an hour where you're getting off a couple of emails to set up some informational interviews. So it takes a little bit to work with the reality and the challenges that many women have when they're trying to do these job changes when they are responsible for their families, either as breadwinners or just moms. And it might take longer than you'd like. That's exactly right, which means the process of keeping the person going, you need to try different things. So you have to build in these different means to stay focused and to stay energized.

32:39Right. And so you say energy and it makes me think of that moment that you've done all of this work, you've laid all this groundwork and you have gaps in your resume or this is not a logical career move. How do you tell your story?

32:57Amy Bernstein:How do you think about this? So first I tell them that you can make anything sound logical. So my challenge to them is always, okay, let's put ourselves in the seat of the interviewer. What do they need right from this role? What are the problems that they're trying to solve? Let's talk about how you've solved those problems before. Let's be ready with a story from your past about how you've done that and what you've learned. They don't always have to be the shining examples of perfection. But here's what I learned in the things that went wrong and the things that went right. Interviewers need to feel an element of authenticity in a conversation.

33:38And when people come to the table with, I'm good at everything, that doesn't feel authentic. What feels authentic is when someone is able to come to the table and say, this is what I'm good at. These are the areas that I'm looking to also grow in. This is what I think I can do for you. This is the environment that is right for me. And maybe these are the environments that may not be right. That last comment of these are the environments that may not be tells the interviewer that you're thoughtful about what is the right space for you.

34:12Amy Bernstein:So, Nina, you've gotten the job. You've made the big leap, right? And now you are in a responsible position in an industry you're not all that familiar with in a company that's new to you. How do you not sort of, you know, just shrink from all that you don't know? How do you turn the gaps in your experience into a strength? Yeah. Yeah. So sometimes we are excited about the change and then all of a sudden, right, all that newness brings up that imposter syndrome. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And so you have to be really clear on who you're trying to be. We have to recognize that we were selected for that role because we are bringing new energy, new information, new ideas and sit in the strength of that versus the fact that, oh, I don't know how to do this thing yet.

35:11So again, that work of I'm a learner and everything new requires learning. So my noticing that I'm feeling like I don't know something and that feels bad, just notice it. Notice it and then shift to what am I bringing here?

35:31Amy Bernstein:Nina, this has been great. I wish you had been by my side 15 years ago, 20 years ago, 30 years ago, but it was so nice to have you here today. Thanks for having me. It's been a real joy. As Nina said, the best way to make switching careers feel attainable is to pay attention to examples of people who have done it. So that's what we're going to do for the rest of this episode. Hear from a couple of women from within our audience. First of all, thank you both for being here. Yeah, of course. It's awesome. Thanks for having us. Renee, you moved from working in residence life in higher ed to learning and development.

36:09Amy Bernstein:And Lauren, you moved from defense policy at the federal level to consulting at a private tech company. What drew you to your respective new careers? And I'll start with you, Renee. Yeah. So for me, as I was looking at my career in higher education, I was looking at where I thought I might want to go. When I first started my career, I thought I would become a vice president for student affairs. I thought I would head up the ladder of that trajectory within higher education. And as I began to look more closely at what my leader was doing, I began to go, is that really what I want my next step to be is to become a senior housing officer, right?

36:44Amy Bernstein:Is that where I want to go? And when I began to really process what I love about my job and what could I do more of is when I landed on, I really loved working with adults in the workplace. And then what I began to do next was just to look on LinkedIn and look at job descriptions and go, okay, what transferable skills do I have? What am I missing? What could I begin to job craft within my current role to prepare for what that type of next step could look like? And just beginning to process what does that type of career shift mean? Okay. And Lauren, talk to us about what drew you to your new career.

37:18Amy Bernstein:So I have been in and around national security and defense policy for the last 15 years. And so for me, it was something that I always wanted to do, serving our country and working at the federal government level. And it felt like the culmination of a lot of hard work and study to get to where I had gotten. But as I looked around me, it's sort of actually similar to Renee. I saw that there were other opportunities that were interesting to me that allowed me to use the issues that I was passionate about and my desire to learn about the world and help translate global events into decisions and effects for stakeholders.

37:59Amy Bernstein:And I wanted to grow professionally. For me, that was like a really big driver in leaving. I was in a role where I was basically, I wouldn't have been able to grow very much more without changing something up. And so the question for me was, how did I want to change it up? And again, sort of similar to Renee, I spent a lot of time thinking about what skills I've developed in government, how my government experience could be translated to the outside world, and then where the fit would be best for me. And so I landed in this space now where I'm helping a tech company think through geopolitical issues and the impact it has upon the company.

38:37Amy Bernstein:It's something that I'm very passionate about. I'm learning a lot, too, in this new role, which is really, for me, that's a big indicator that I made the right jump. Renee, Mina emphasized the importance of identifying interests and transferable skills and weaving a narrative around them. What is the story you're going to tell that makes sense of all this. Talk about how you did that. Yeah. So I think the way I was able to do that successfully was to go, okay, what is it that is a need within the corporate environment that I can help to fill uniquely that might be a skill set that frankly, within the higher education realm is kind of taken for granted.

39:16Amy Bernstein:And that's what I began to really to suss out. And frankly, a faculty member in the management program I was in was really helpful with being able to connect those dots a little more clearly and see that I had this value that I didn't fully realize would be appreciated in the corporate environment. I just need to make some tweaks to how I was communicating about it. What also helped was that I found that almost more important than going, I need to go work for a specific company or a specific type of industry was really looking closely at what type of corporate culture I wanted to work in. So as I began doing some informational interviews and talking with people in my network, I discovered that initially there were some companies that would have been top of my list to go find a job with and discovered that the things that I valued in terms of fast-paced change, ability to pull levers really quickly to be able to make a difference and make an impact were not necessarily in alignment with some of the companies I initially had in mind and discovering that those for me were not going to be a good fit in terms of the type of workplace experience I wanted to have.

40:16Amy Bernstein:So my ability to communicate that as well helped that I could understand a given corporate culture and how I could work effectively in it. So those were the couple of things that really seemed to help as I was navigating that change. Did you encounter much skepticism as you were interviewing for jobs in a totally different sector? Yeah, to an extent. But what also helped is I discovered others who've done it before. So actually, the company that I work for now, my predecessor also came from the same background, actually in residence life and housing, worked in higher education. And so they really valued that skill set and knowing that I had this variety of credentials around the types of assessments they want to do with employees or just overall my ability to be able to understand adult behavior in the workplace, make meaning of it to create change.

41:02Amy Bernstein:So it helped that I had someone else who had kind of kicked down that door for me before that and had demonstrated credibility in that space. But I'd also say that would be something really important to look at is to go, where else can I find others who've been down this career path before me? And is there something that I see similarly in the types of companies that they worked for, where they may be not only open to, but really receptive to someone with my type of background and experience and what that looks like to make that transition. So when you were telling your story, it sounds like you really did a very good job of understanding the market need and understanding the details where there was transferability from your old role, from whatever training you had done, whatever would help you fit?

41:48Amy Bernstein:Yeah, in some ways, it actually felt a little more like consulting, where I was coming in to go, I want to understand the biggest problems you face, and how can I help you to be able to solve those? And this is how I've done it before. And this is what I see as replicable to what I could help you all to be able to do going forward. I actually really enjoyed the process, which might not be common, just getting to know other people. And the way I saw it was even if something didn't land or didn't happen? Am I potentially expanding my network a little bit? Because when the right one did, I could tell when I was in that interview process with them of like, this is all connecting.

42:24Amy Bernstein:Like they're asking me the types of questions that, yeah, I want to be answering day in and day out with them. So you're talking about the need to listen and to tailor your message to what you're hearing and to mean it. But there's also something in what you're saying about attitude and essential optimism. And I'm wondering, Lauren, how does that resonate for you in your experience? Yeah, I mean, my track record was maybe a little more hit or miss than Renee. I had a lot of conversations spread out over the course of a year while I was really in the trenches working this process that never went anywhere.

43:01Amy Bernstein:I had job applications that were close to an offer letter that like it just poof disappeared. I got sort of ghosted, I guess, is the term of art these days. So for me, it was it always felt like one step forward, two steps back. But my positive spin on all of it was, well, one, I now have a much more expansive network than I did a year ago as I went through this whole process. But two, I really learned through the process of talking to people and doing all these interviews and, you know, writing tests and other metrics that went along with, I learned how to translate these very government specific skills into something that speaks to the people that hired me and got like the one hiring manager to not say, oh, her resume is nothing like the type of person we usually hire, but to actually see that my ability to interpret world events and put some order on the chaos to the world that we live in is a skill that is transferable in-house in the corporate tech company context.

44:07Amy Bernstein:So you mentioned networking and Nina, of course, says that networking is a very important part of making this transition. So Lauren, talk to us, you know, you said it was a little bit bumpy. Not every meeting worked out the way you wanted it to. Talk about how you evolved your approach to networking or your attitude toward networking as you were doing it to make this switch? Yeah, I think for me, where I started was I've actually never really liked networking. And it felt like just something that I needed to do a chore to find the next opportunity. But I think part of the challenge for me was like, I think one of the recommendations from Nina was take a week off and try and like sink some time upfront into networking.

44:54Amy Bernstein:my last job was so intense that I could not really carve out any time for my personal life, let alone to go out and start to network for sort of a week away from my job. So I think once I learned how to operate within the constraints that I had from my last role, networking became a lot more fun to me because it was something where I could just learn more about those that had taken and similar journeys, and frankly, even people that hadn't, but ended up doing neat things in cool companies across the country that were all having impact. So yeah, so it sounds like you were able to make an important attitudinal change.

45:34Amy Bernstein:You gave yourself a break. Did you do some self-talk? I mean, help me. I hate networking. If I wanted to switch sectors, what would you tell me? Uh, my question that I carried with me was always, what can I learn from this person? And if I could end a conversation being able to answer that question, that was to me like time well spent, coffee money well purchased. Excellent. So Renee, you started the process of switching sectors and making this pivot just about the time that you gave birth to your second child, speaking of constraints, right? So what actually triggered this move for you? How did you decide to make the big change at a time when you were under what must have been a lot of stress?

46:28Amy Bernstein:Yes. Yeah. What happened was a few weeks before I had my second baby, the university I worked for had a reduction in force. And typically I'm pretty pragmatic about things like this. Like I get it, like there's a business of higher education, There's decisions that need to be made. But when I saw the types of people who were let go in that reduction in force, it left me very disillusioned. And it was this realization of I had been riding on passion in my career. And what I found in that moment was going, I needed to become a little smarter about where I was spending my time and what decisions I was making.

47:03Amy Bernstein:So during that time of maternity leave, obviously, I was very much focused on this newborn who was very demanding and had a lot of needs. But also it was getting onto phone calls with mentors. And while I'm sitting there feeding her, I'm on the phone call with someone else who might be able to help give me some guidance. And what I also found at that time was that I had three other colleagues who worked at other universities in identical roles to mine who were going through the same thing I was. So we had some good text messaging threads going about, okay, what is the game plan here? What are you looking at next?

47:35Amy Bernstein:What is the plan? And so what was fortunate is that I had other people in my network kind of looking to go down a similar path and having that source of support was really essential. But then a mentor gave me a really good recommendation. I think others may appreciate this who also feel the constraint of time of, I just went, I'm going to spend 30 minutes a day on my job search. I set the timer and at least 30 minutes a day was plugging away on something, whether it was applying for jobs, updating LinkedIn posts, reaching out to connect with someone, whatever that is. Sometimes it was more than 30, But in any case, I set that timer and it was like, I'm going to plug away on this 30 minutes a day.

48:10Amy Bernstein:And the benefit of that was that I was beginning to see that forward progress and momentum that you might not gain if you kind of have a false belief of, I'm going to go all in. And in this week, I'm going to put forth all of these applications. I think as Lauren probably also experienced, you're not going to see the return on that investment for some time. Right? I think that is the really hard part about a job search, no matter what it is, is that it's the time it takes for that to be able to all unfold. And so giving myself that 30 minutes a day really helped me to be patient with the process, to focus on what I can control, because ultimately that's the hard part too, is that there's a lot of things that you might be able to influence a bit.

48:48Amy Bernstein:You could send out that message to the recruiter who contacted you to go, hey, just want to check in on where this stands. But at the end of the day, you can't control it. So I wonder if either of you were engaged with a headhunter at all as you were making these transitions. What about you, Renee? Yeah, I was not. Lauren, what about you? I did. So I engaged a headhunter because of what I felt the time constraints in my ability to navigate opportunities entailed. I reached out to a couple that worked specifically in the advisory and consultancy space and asked them really like for help on understanding the lay of the land and where the opportunities were at.

49:31Amy Bernstein:I'd never worked with a headhunter before that. So for me, it was honestly a learning experience in knowing what they want and how to navigate. But I will also say that I was fairly surprised when a couple of them came back and gave me a roster of companies to network with, all of whom I'd already spoken with in some form. So I actually quickly pivoted away from using a headhunter in this specific jump because I had covered that ground on my own networking instead. So how did you find the headhunters you got in touch with? One was recommended and the others I found through LinkedIn. And they were sector specific, I will note, too.

50:15Amy Bernstein:So they were working at the nexus of international affairs and corporate risk, which is a pretty niche field. And so there's a limited number of headhunters in that space. So I'm going to ask you both this question. You heard what Nina had to say. She offered really valuable advice. Is there any advice you would add for our listeners who are contemplating this kind of big move? I'll start with you, Renee. Yeah, the other piece of advice I would give is giving yourself some space to grieve. I think our careers are big parts of our identities, and I found I really had to reconcile that. If I had invested more than 15 years of my life in developing a career in higher education, I had a very hyper-specific graduate degree focused on that field and in that area.

51:02Amy Bernstein:And I remember at one time, it was like the stages of grief, and I was so angry, and I was yelling at my husband about it in the kitchen and going like, I wasted all this time on a degree that now doesn't mean anything. And it was not true, right? But I had to go through those stages of feeling mad and feeling, who am I if I'm no longer a professional in higher education? what value do I bring? Is my value in my work? Like there's a lot of like existential questions coming up. That's a lot of identity questions, you know, like who am I? Yeah, exactly. And I think a lot of successful women feel that, right?

51:37Amy Bernstein:Of like, you don't become successful at the work you've done because you only care about it a little bit. You've deeply invested yourself. And once I was able to better unlock like, okay, wait a second, these reactions I'm having are grief and I need to give myself the space to feel that, to talk with other friends who've been through it. But just knowing that that will come as a part of the process is really important. Yeah. What about you, Lauren? What advice would you add? Yeah, I mean, I feel like, Renee, I feel like I went through the same phases of emotions as you did in a lot of ways. This transition, it's very inherently wrapped up with identity.

52:15Amy Bernstein:And so learning how to channel a lot of those emotions as you're making this like very big change is really hard. But I think my biggest piece of advice is really to folks that are considering it, do it. It's hard and scary, but if you have a support network around you and you're confident in the choice that you're making, it's probably the right decision. I think that said, though, there's, I think, space to honor the career that you had. It's really important, in my view, to capture those memories and that time that you had, whether that's, you know, adorning your home office with mementos from your last role or having a killer goodbye party as you transition from one career to the next.

53:03Like, it's appropriate to celebrate that, but it's also appropriate to use Renée's

53:08Amy Bernstein:words to grieve it. And for me, it's not really been grief as much as it's been about finding other ways to still stay plugged in with areas that spark my fire and light that passion that I took to my last job. And so if there are means or mechanisms for side hustles, board positions, other opportunities where you can continue to channel that passion that took you down that original career path and you're able to balance that alongside family and everything else, that's certainly something that I would recommend others consider as well. So you don't have to say goodbye to all of it. No. Right.

53:49Amy Bernstein:Thank you, both of you, for sharing your stories with us, Lauren and Renee. This has been a great conversation. Thank you, Amy. Thanks for having us. That was Women at Work host Amy Bernstein speaking with Renee Dowdy and Lauren Dickey, and before them, executive coach Nina Bowman. Those conversations were part of an episode originally titled, How to Leap Mid-Career from One Industry to Another. HBR on Leadership will be back next Wednesday with another handpicked conversation from Harvard Business Review. If this episode helped you, share it with your friends and colleagues. And follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

54:34Amy Bernstein:While you're there in the app, consider leaving us a review. And when you're ready for more podcasts, articles, case studies, books, and videos with the world's top business and management experts, find it all at hbr.org. This episode was produced by Hannah Bates and me, Amanda Kersey. On Leadership's team includes Maureen Hoke, Rob Eckhart, Erica Trexler, Ramsey Kabaz, Nicole Smith, and Anne Bartholomew. Music is by Coma Media. Thanks for listening.