Step Up from Middle Management to Senior Leadership

14:02executive coach:I absolutely felt stuck in that sort of middle management type role. You're responsible for keeping your team motivated, keeping them trained, keeping them rowing in the right direction. I was very attuned to making sure that I did a really good job, that I like understood what all of the expectations were. and was doing all of that and more. I found myself in a couple of different situations, being a middle manager, leading a team of individuals, but having the senior role above me open. So I was essentially doing both. And so threw my name in the hat to say, hey, I'm doing a lot of this role now and would like the opportunity to take on that title, take on that responsibility.

14:53executive coach:And I was passed over for that promotion, was told that they needed to hire someone from the outside who had done the role before, had a proven track record. And that's the kind of thing that actually gets me really frustrated. Because how am I going to get experience doing the role if you're required to have experience doing the role before you'll have an opportunity to do the role, right? So it's a little bit of a catch-22. Right. The guy they brought in was, in fact, not super expert, didn't bring additional value. And I now had to train him on how we did things around here and was continuing to do a lot of his work that he was now delegating to me.

15:47executive coach:That was the impetus that led me to leaving that company and taking on a new role elsewhere. But that expectation that you have the experience has been a notable theme. And the hard part is you don't have the experience until you have an opportunity to have the experience.

16:09COO 2:Yeah. Well, as you said, a total catch 22. Lauren, what about you? Did you reach out to senior management and say, I want a promotion, I want a senior role? Yeah.

16:22Amy B:So I will say, I know I'm fortunate in the organization I work for, the culture is a little bit more like kumbaya than I think in some for-profit spaces or even another, some other nonprofit spaces. And so I am fortunate that I felt like from the most part, when I started, I had supervisors who really cared about my development and my growth and that they really poured into me. But what I was finding was that it was still going to be on their timeframe and not on my timeframe. And I know lots of times we give so much flack to the younger generation because they're like, I want to come out and I want to be a CEO on day one of my employment.

16:57Amy B:And we realize that that can't happen, right? And so I really took some time to think about, is this what I'm doing? Am I expecting something more than what I should expect at this stage of my career? I always came into spaces for the most part being the youngest person of my peers. And I think when you're also the youngest person and then one of the few females in the space, I think that can also be something. And then I've typically been in a lot of my career, the only person of color in that space as well. And so it's like this multitude of things that I'm walking in and trying to really evaluate and make sure that I'm not feeling something that's not really there or making excuses of something that, you know, that I've just made up.

17:37Amy B:And so I did have conversations with my supervisor to say, this is what I want to do. I'm ready for more. And this is why. I felt like it was very important for me to come with the examples of how I'd proven myself and the examples of how I had done the things they asked me and exceeded those things and taken on additional projects. And in this particular instance, when I felt stuck, I was proposing to make a transition to shift from an operational role to a leadership development role. And I felt that I had done a lot of things that proven why I had the experience in that field, why I would be a good fit for that position.

18:14Amy B:And when I was having those conversations with them, they said, oh, yes, like you have done these things. We agree. This is great. You know, we're really interested in seeing you in this role. And then nothing really happened with it. And I followed up and I said, I'm just checking in to see what the status of this is. And they said, oh, we're still having some decisions and conversations about what this role might look like because it was going to be a new role in the organization. And then it was only after they found out that a YMCA from a different state was recruiting me to come work for them.

18:45Amy B:And it was only then that they said, oh, well, maybe we need to think about this role and if it's something that you'd really be good for. And so that was frustrating in a lot of ways because I felt like it shouldn't take you being concerned that I'm leaving for you to see my value. So you've talked a little bit about this evaluation process.

19:03COO 2:You kind of sized yourself up. You sized the organization up. Lauren, talk us through how that worked for you. You know, am I ready for this? How did you go about answering that question for yourself?

19:15Amy B:It's interesting because in my role now every day, even in my role as COO, I ask myself all the time, am I ready for this? I don't know. But definitely, you know, I think when I started my career, I would have thought that I was ready for everything and had all the skills I needed. And, you know, like, yes, I can learn, but I'm already I'm already pretty good. And I think obviously, as you're confronted with different challenges, every single day you realize, oh, there are a lot of things that I still have left to learn. And I went through a development program where the whole goal was really focused on helping people go from a program level role to become an executive director.

19:50Amy B:And in that part of it was self-evaluation. He did a lot of self-assessments. And at the end of it, you get this report that was really robust. And the feedback that you get, it's a self-assessment. Nobody else put in on this but you. And a lot of the things that came out of there were really eye-opening for me.

20:08COO 2:Like what? Give us some examples.

20:10Amy B:One, the one that jumps out the most, because I argued about it, even though I self-assessed, I did a self-assessment, was it said, Lauren has little regard for people's health and personal well-being. I shared this with my friend and I said, what are they talking about? I feel like I'm, you know, a fairly caring person. And she said, oh, no. And she rattled off pretty quickly three examples.

20:32COO 2:Wow.

20:33Amy B:This was in a pre-pandemic world, so I'll preface that. But it was somebody, and the example she gave was I had a staff person call me one day and said, hey, like, I have a sore throat. I'm not going to be able to come to work today. And I said, OK, fine. But I was upset. I was annoyed. I rolled my eyes. I mean, the person was on the phone, so they didn't see me. But I said, a sore throat. Come on. Come into the office. And it was some of those instances that once I had time to reflect upon how I evaluated to myself how people were viewing me. And I said, there's nobody else that is causing this issue except me.

21:05Amy B:There's no one else that's telling people who are sick, oh, you should just come into the office. And even though I didn't say those words to them, that was the attitude that I had. So obviously that came across in any kind of conversations I was having with them about if they needed additional time or if they weren't able to maybe meet assignment deadlines because they weren't feeling well. And then there was another one about how I would get really excited about the beginning of a project, but I would really lose interest partway through and then sometimes not complete it with the same enthusiasm that I had started the project.

21:38Amy B:That is 100 % true. And I think what it allowed me to do, though, is also better evaluate what roles I should be in. You know, like, do I need to be in that role where I am the doer doing it every day? Or am I better in a strategic role where I'm having that conversation and generating ideas to then pass on the actual day-to-day and the detail work to somebody else. But it's very interesting when you have to hold the mirror up to yourself and recognize like, these are skill gaps that I have, or these are emotional intelligence gaps that I have. And how do I take control about going and fixing that rather than kind of using it as an excuse for why I'm not getting the roles I want or why I'm not excelling in the ways that I wish I was.

22:18COO 2:Yeah. So Megan, how about you? Was there a process where you sort of evaluated yourself to figure out whether you were ready for that big leap into senior management? What did that look like?

22:33executive coach:So I joke about this because if you don't laugh about things, you might otherwise cry. But the year I turned 40, I was a senior vice president in a large insurance organization. And that happened to be the year that I, number one, got divorced, number two, left my job, and number three, did some real soul searching on what it was that I wanted to do going forward. And so less about the feeling stuck in a middle management kind of role and wanting to break through to that next level, more around just being at the next level isn't necessarily enough, Right. Like there's still an element of are you passionate about the things that you're doing on a day to day basis?

23:25executive coach:Do you get motivated to show up to work in the morning and actually coach people or set strategy or ensure execution is happening? And the answer for me was no. the role that I was in, even though it was senior leadership role. And I felt like, okay, this is where I thought I wanted to go. It wasn't filling me up in all those ways. And as you just heard, like, there were other ways in which I felt stuck. Right.

23:52COO 2:Right. I want to ask two questions of both of you. One of them is, you know, was there a trigger that sort of set you on this path into senior leadership where you said, you know what, enough. I've been doing the job. I'm not getting the promotion. Or in your case, Lauren, I've got all of the technical skills. I'm working on the soft skills. I've had it. Is there a moment where you just said, I've had it? Lauren, I'll ask you first.

24:26Amy B:Yeah, so this actually, in the original example, I gave, there was probably not that definitive moment. In a later time period, I definitely had that moment. I was in a situation where they promoted somebody who was my peer to become my supervisor. And when I asked about why that decision had been made, they said, oh, we felt that you needed some more wins. What does that mean? Right. Right. What does that mean? They couldn't really articulate it well. And what I then did was I said, well, this is what I see. This is what I see that other individual has accomplished. And this is what I see I've accomplished.

25:03Amy B:And it was nothing against this individual at all. We were just serving different communities. The community that individual was serving was an affluent community where there were boundless resources. And so people had money and they came and they did and they partaked and revenue was great. The communities that I was serving were not that way. We were having to do a lot more with a lot less. And so I said, you know, let me explain to you the wins I feel that I've had. And this person has those two, but they're different. And if you were to put that individual into my situation, I don't think they would have been as successful because they just don't understand how to work within the finite resources that we had available.

25:43Amy B:But I realized in that moment that I wasn't going to change their opinion on that. And so at that moment, I actually said to, I still sometimes don't know what possessed me to say this, but we had our leadership transition. And so it was the COO at the time that I was sitting with. It was the first time I'd ever met him. And we're having this conversation. I'm explaining to him that I was frustrated that they'd promoted, you know, one of my peers without even a conversation prior to about, you know, what that was going to look like. And I said, it's clear to me that you all don't see my value here.

26:15Amy B:And I know my value. So I'm going to go someplace that will appreciate me. And so I told him, I said, I'll be I'll be gone by the summertime. Oh, boy. And he kind of just gave me this look as if to say, oh my gosh, like what did I just step into? Because, you know, he was new and he was making decisions under the guidance of people who had been there longer than him. And so I think in that moment he started to think, like, did we make the right decision? And, you know, I don't know, Lauren, but is it worth losing her? I'm not sure. And so he just said, you know, I'm really sorry to hear that. I really hope that we can do something to change your mind.

26:49Amy B:And he's like, I don't really know you well, but, you know, I've heard good things about you and I hope that you will stay with us. And, you know, I did not.

26:59COO 2:Yeah. Yep. Well, OK, so now I want to hear your story of being fed up. Megan, tell us.

27:07executive coach:I had a similar experience. I wouldn't say there was like a switch flip for me, but I had the opportunity. I'd been promoted a few different times, but sort of still at that middle manager level. And I had a lot of exposure to executive leadership. And I had a multitude of opportunities where I was building skills, where I was running projects, driving impact, and had expressed my desire to grow my career, take on that senior level role, and was sort of rebuffed, right? Like you're in that succession planning, right? It's a promo within two to five years. And I'm thinking to myself, okay, you're trying to say the things that are going to make me feel okay.

27:56executive coach:But two to five years, that's a lot. Whoever stood up and cheered at, let's talk about this in two to five years, right? Right. Right. And at the same time, I was witnessing the way those executive leaders ran their businesses, showed up, set strategy, made big decisions that had real impacts on the organization, on the people who I had led at various points, who I interacted with on a day to day basis. And I was just feeling like, oh, I can do it better than that. Like, I have a way of actually driving forward the values that our company says we hold and pulling that through into strategy and execution and leadership and wanted my chance to prove that out.

28:50COO 2:Good. So one of the things I noticed as I look at both of your career paths is that you were both willing to take risks to get to the level you wanted to reach. So Megan, you moved from one insurance company to another. You did a tour of duty as a consultant, right? Yep. You also hired an executive coach. You knew something needed to change for you and you were going to make a change in order to achieve this level you wanted. Talk us through that whole line of thinking, that process.

29:25executive coach:Yeah, there's a couple of points that you just called out and they sort of build on each other. You know, I've talked through that frustration and feeling of stuckness as a middle manager. And given all the experiences I had had, I realized, you know what, it may be a risk, but it's worth taking it to apply for and become a senior level leader in another organization, because the company where you're working has their own best interests in mind, right? It's not personal. It's business. But they're used to me in the role that I'm in where I'm making a good impact. And so there's a deterrent. There's a downside to promoting me on.

30:11executive coach:When you work in another organization or apply to another organization, they see you for who you are today. They see you for the accomplishments that you're able to articulate and the potential of what you're willing to sign up for and do. And so that was a bit of a risk, but paid off in my case. And that's how I made that shift to senior level leadership. The sort of next shift that you described is hanging up my hat on the insurance industry. My entire career, nearly 20 years, was spent in that one industry, in that one trajectory. and now I want to do something different and I've got to figure out A, what it is, B, how to do it and C, gather the courage that's needed to do it.

31:01executive coach:So having an executive coach really helped me to do that, gave me some frameworks to kind of map it out, understand what's the stuff that I actually love to do and what might that translate into.

31:13COO 2:And so when you hired that executive coach, Did you hire that coach with the idea that he or she would help you get to this promotion?

31:24executive coach:That specific coach was aimed at helping me find a career pivot that is going to be more fulfilling. It wasn't with the end in mind of where I am now, but I will say doing that work, being open to that risk and having the courage to like try new things is very much what has led me to the COO role I have today at a technology company that is serving the insurance industry. And it's, you know, a nice full circle for me, but there's no end in sight, right? Like I am still learning, still growing, have a different, but also incredible executive coach now. Great.

32:09COO 2:So, Lauren, you know, you you kind of pushed yourself out the door. But talk about, you know, you actually relocated first for a VP job in Tampa, then a COO job back in Boston. How did that that willingness to take the leap factor into your career path?

32:32Amy B:Yeah, so I knew very early on when I started at the YMCA that I loved the organization and I loved the work that it did not just in my local community, but across the globe. And I felt strongly that I would probably not leave the Y. They also have a great retirement plan. So I was like, you know, this is probably the place where I'm going to be for the long term. And fortunate enough that I made a lot of good connections over the years with people from across the country working for the Y. And I knew that I was passionate about serving people and helping to contribute to positive change in the world.

33:09But I didn't necessarily always see that exact thing replicated at the Y where I was.

33:15Amy B:But I knew that it existed at YMCA's out there and whatever version that looked like for the next evolution of Lauren and who I was. And so when I got into these spaces where I was feeling stuck, where I was feeling like this space is no longer, you know, aligning or serving me, it was comforting in a way to know that I could have change, but still also have familiarity. And so I could seek change in a new role, in a new location, but with an organization that I knew and content that I felt really comfortable, I could do well. And so I was fortunate that I had a really good support system. I was married at the time and he was very supportive of me following my path and where I wanted to be.

34:01I have kids that are very much look at, you know, a new city as a new adventure, and that's not always the case.

34:07Amy B:And so a lot of the reasons I think people are afraid to relocate didn't exist for me. A lot of people say, oh, my kids would be devastated or my partner maybe wouldn't be supportive or, you know, all of the different reasons. And thankfully, a lot of those people were very supportive in my life and made it very easy for me to really look at the opportunity and say, is this a good opportunity for me, for us? Can I go to a place where I feel like I can really help contribute and make things better? And does it keep me on what I felt as my journey and my path? And I say that because I was in a program years ago and they brought up the idea of career mapping.

34:44Amy B:And they said, you know, where is it that you want to be when you retire? And what age are you going to be when you retire? And then what you need to do is then work backwards. And then I'll tell you how many different career moves you have left between now and when you want to retire. And that was really helpful for me because it allowed me to see, because of that great retirement plan, I plan on retiring early. And so I said, okay, I don't have a ton of moves left to make necessarily. And I want to make sure that each one counts and gets me closer to where I want to be. I think sometimes when we do things without intention, we end up following and chasing shiny objects or, you know, things that maybe sound like a really good idea, but really aren't putting you any closer to where you ultimately want to be.

35:25And so having that career map done, it was easier for me to look at the opportunities and say, is this really something that's just good for right now?

35:32Amy B:Or does it really help get me closer to where I ultimately want to be?

35:36COO 2:Well, your story really resonates with me. That self-reflection, but also that honesty, that really astringent honesty that you don't have that many career moves left. So that sobers you up real fast. But then also the courage, both of you, Lauren and Megan, it took guts to make those moves. You were willing to take the leap with the idea that, you know what, it might not work, but I'm not happy right now, so I need to do something. So you are taking responsibility for yourself. And that really resonates for me. It's how I got to Harvard Business Review. It was realizing, I mean, I don't know if I said I was stuck when I was thinking about it, but I sure had to own what part of it was my responsibility.

36:24COO 2:And then I had to really put myself out there and try for something I wasn't sure I was going to get. It represented a huge step up for me. And moving across the country, the prospect of moving from San Francisco to Boston was somehow less daunting to me than the prospect of finding out that, you know what, I actually didn't deserve the job. the fear of rejection, that was almost harder for me to deal with. So that's what I mean. I put myself out there. I sort of dared myself to handle that. And man, am I glad I did. But that fear of rejection is part of what kept me stuck in place for too many years.

37:15COO 2:Does that resonate for either of you?

37:18Amy B:Yes. I joke with my mom all the time that I feel like I've been probably not qualified for every job that I've applied for and gotten. So there's always that fear. And in actuality, you know, like I was qualified. I had what it took. But there's always that part of you, that self-doubt that just says this is not for me or I'm not good enough or this is not my opportunity. And I think it definitely makes sense that we have that little inner voice that tells us all these different things. And we sometimes just have to knock it out and say, no, I've got this.

37:51executive coach:One thing I just want to add and agree, having the courage to take the risk is absolutely a factor. I also think that the so-called risk is blown up to feel bigger than perhaps it really is. And hear me out for a moment. It's like, as I'm thinking about moving companies so that I could take on a promoted position, the risk is I don't get that job and then I stay where I am and there's really no impact. or the risk is I do get that job and I hate it. Well, what's the outcome? It's not that I end up penniless and incapable of caring for myself, right? It's like, okay, well then you find a new job or you go back to the old company.

38:46executive coach:I share that only to say like, I know I have felt ingrained in me that these kinds of things are very risky. Right. But that's like my inner critic, the one that's telling me, oh, well, you may not be successful at doing this. But if you actually step back and you look at the data, it's like, oh, this isn't that big of a risk. And so it is one that I'm willing to lean into because the upside potential here is absolutely worth it.

39:14COO 2:And the downside, the certain downside of staying where you are.

39:17executive coach:Exactly. Exactly. And recognize that not everybody has the same set of circumstances and the risk could be different to others. But I do think that there is a bit of like, you know, it's our evolution. We are, we have a negativity bias. Like we think that it is more risky than it is. And if you look at it, it could actually be a much easier swing to take.

39:40COO 2:And particularly if your goal is to get the promotion you believe you deserve, to reach a level that you feel that you have earned, there is way more downside to not taking the leap. I have another question for you. So Cynthia talked about the importance of making yourself visible to influential people outside your organization. Megan, did you think about that as you were thinking about your next big move when you didn't get the job you wanted?

40:15executive coach:That is an awareness and something that I have gotten much more intentional about as years have gone on. Probably not something I was doing terribly effectively in those earlier stages or when I was in that middle management position. I, and I think probably falsely, believed that essentially the fastest equation to get me from where I was into a senior leadership role was to do a better job at the specific role mandate that I already had. And I took that to mean, okay, spend all my time and energy focusing on doing as best a job as I possibly can on every single one of my sort of accountabilities.

41:04executive coach:When what might have been true is that point that Cynthia brought up, which is I poured plenty of extra hours and energy into, you know, an area of diminishing returns, right? Making sure that every I was dotted and every T was crossed on every single attribute of my job description versus redeploying that energy some of those hours to being visible, creating relationships, and perhaps creating coaches or mentors or sponsors outside of the organization. So I didn't do that at the time, but I think it's very relevant because that is a big part of what I did when I was leaving the industry, creating a consulting organization.

41:54executive coach:And then in that consulting organization, getting to know all types of other leaders of other businesses and exploring the ways in which relationships there could actually create more opportunities to do different and more fun things.

42:16COO 2:Yeah, that's one thing that surprised me as I moved up through various organizations was how important it was to develop an external reputation and how much more important it got as you moved higher and higher. How does that sound to you, Lauren? Yes, networking, I think, is key and it is a big part of how I'm in the seat that I am in today.

42:41Amy B:So while I've spent most of my career with the YMCA, I've been in four different YMCA. So each one is kind of operating like its own separate company. And I was very intentional about developing relationships with people that were in different YMCA's, in different roles, in different parts of the country. and having connections to them allowed me to be chosen to serve on national groups and project teams, planning committees for different conferences that gave me a different level of connectedness to the overall organization, but also exposure to different people. And so, you know, when this opportunity, this role that I'm in right now, when it came up, the CEO here was new to the YMCA.

43:24Amy B:He, you know, hadn't had any experience with the organization, but he did make phone calls to different leaders around the Y movement to ask for possible suggestions of people you should talk to for this role. And my name came up from several different people. And that is because I did, you know, step out of my own location to ensure that I was building those relationships. And so it's definitely been key to me, even though I've, you know, been with the YMCA for most of the time.

43:51COO 2:Very strategic of you. So I want to ask for you both to give advice to our listener, Maggie, who wrote to us about feeling stuck in her current middle management role. So let me describe the situation. Maggie's worked for her company for 19 years. She was promoted to manager about eight years ago. And over the last year, she's applied for a number of senior management roles and has been vocal about wanting to be promoted. But so far, nothing has panned out. She's actively seeking career mentorship from leaders within and outside her department and has completed leadership courses that she's been nominated to attend.

44:36COO 2:And while she's described her leadership style as more quiet and that she prefers to lead from behind, as she puts it, she can be more authoritative when she needs to be. Despite her efforts to be seen as a leader, she's having a hard time getting other leaders to see her leadership potential. While her performance reviews are excellent and the feedback is essentially to keep doing what you're doing, she's been told indirectly that she's not ready for senior management, that her career role suits her because she's good at it, and that she's too nice. Her mentors have suggested that to help her case, to support her case, she should start offering her opinion on things that she's not an expert in to help leaders see her as a source of insight on more than just her narrow areas of expertise.

45:26COO 2:So what do you guys think of that advice?

45:31Amy B:I would not do that, personally. people can sense when you don't know. And I think sometimes it's more dangerous to offer advice on something that you really have no knowledge of rather than just to be honest and say, you know what, I don't know. I mean, honestly, in this case, I feel as though her organization has shown her time and time again, what they think of her and how they value her. And I think they do value her, but they value her in the role that she's in. And I don't see her value beyond that. And so I would say for her, are you okay with that? Because they've shown you very consistently that that's what they think and that that's what they're going to continue to do.

46:14Amy B:And the frustration of not having any valid feedback, essentially, about how she can improve, I think for me, that just says they're probably not invested in seeing her get promoted or have a future beyond the role that she's currently in.

46:28COO 2:Anything to add, Megan?

46:29executive coach:I completely agree with Lauren. Eight years in a current role with stellar feedback, but zero support or direction towards developing into that next role. The message is pretty clear. I guess I would also encourage her not to take it personally, to really separate that out. like her employer does not get to decide her inherent value, right? She is deciding her inherent value. And in fact, the data says she's adding incredible value in the role that she's in. And if she'd like to take on new challenges, then it probably is time to look for other places where there might be more opportunity to add value immediately in that sort of higher level way.

47:21COO 2:So do you think there's any way for her to change the perception of her potential within the organization? What do you think, Lauren?

47:33Amy B:This is probably a personality test, right? Between how somebody would choose to go about this. For me, I would look at it and say, I don't want to be in an organization where after 19 years, I still have to fight for you to see me, you know, to see the potential in me. So for me, I would say it's not worth, it's no longer worth my energy and effort. I'm going to just go on to other places.

47:56COO 2:Do you agree, Megan? the one extra thing that sort of occurs to me is how can she maybe try another tactic

48:07executive coach:that would be beneficial to her in addition to giving yet another opportunity to this organization i don't disagree that like they've essentially made clear who it is they are but there could be a way where Maggie could have some additional fun and build some additional skills, which if we go back to needing to have the experience before you have the opportunity to have the experience, right, could fill some of those gaps for her. To the extent that there are opportunities to do work that is independently motivated, that is self-guided, which would be identifying a problem that exists or an opportunity that needs to be filled.

48:56executive coach:That could be something for her to do some project work. Really vet that out, create a plan, create a framework, get people involved, mobilize teams to sort of fill that need, and have some fun while she's doing it. It's an opportunity to potentially engage some other leaders than her direct chain that's been giving her kind of meh feedback. Could be an opportunity to create a sponsorship type relationship. And either way, if she finds a niche or a problem statement or a gap that makes her excited to do some extra work to create solutions, that could be a way to build some skills, build some relationships and give it another shot to see, OK, I'm fulfilling what you would expect of senior leadership, which is not executing existing strategies and guidance, but instead identifying challenges.

49:57solving them, you know, mobilizing the team to do work and use that as a platform on which to

50:04executive coach:talk about her further development.

50:06COO 2:Well, the only thing I would add to what you both said is that this is exactly the time to start working on reputation building. Get out there, go to conferences, post on LinkedIn, don't weigh in on topics you don't know anything about. That's not going to get you anywhere. But do project your value, your knowledge, your experience out into the world and see what it says back to you.

50:35executive coach:Yeah, absolutely.

50:41COO 1:That was Women at Work host Amy Bernstein speaking with COOs Megan Bach and Lauren Reyes. And before them, career coach Cynthia Pong. Those conversations were part of an episode originally titled, How to Manage, Rising from Middle to Senior Management. HBR on Leadership will be back next Wednesday with another handpicked conversation from Harvard Business Review. If this episode helped you, share it with your friends and colleagues. And follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. While you're there in the app, consider leaving us a review. And when you're ready for more podcasts, articles, case studies, books, and videos with the world's top business and management experts, find it all at hbr.org.

51:32COO 1:This episode was produced by Hannah Bates and me, Amanda Kersey. On Leadership's team includes Maureen Hoke, Rob Eckhart, Erica Trexler, Ramsey Kabaz, Nicole Smith, and Anne Bartholomew. Music is by Coma Media. Thanks for listening.