How Prosus CEO Builds Winning Tech Culture | Fabricio Bloisi

27:23Because I imagine you guys are going to build some new things to test on iFood. Some other team needs to coordinate for dependencies because some other systems involved and blah, blah. and that person, like how do you like deal with like all that? That's why the magic I said on balancing ambidextrous culture. What you just described is related to a more mature company. If you need to innovate and iterate, just like a startup, you cannot have dependence. That's why we call it jet skis. We create a five people team. They can use the data, but they cannot change or commit the main systems. They cannot change the main product.

28:02Sometimes to have the kind of flexibility, if you need to do something with the main product, we say, this jet ski is the owner of a city. So iFood has 2 ,000 cities. It's quite common that we take 10 of them and we say, these jet skis run an app that only runs on this city. And then they can do whatever they want on that city. So to be fast and innovate, kill the dependence and let people be entrepreneurs and tests and make and fail until they find what works. Oh, very interesting. Okay, so you think about the system already so these bets can be completely independent. They are like a startup.

28:41You put five people and they can do whatever they want until they succeed. And they are going to fail 20 times before they succeed. And it's okay. Yeah, very, very interesting. But they cannot touch the billing system. They cannot touch the marketing systems because this one, you need the kind of discipline in the machine. Exactly. Very, very interesting. This episode of HD in HD is brought to you by a brand that's close to my heart, Brex. When we started Brex, it wasn't just about creating another financial product. It was about solving the real gritty challenges that founders and startups face every day.

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29:51If you look at different industries in Brazil, They kind of became like very competitive. So for example, if you get payments, right? Like you have Stone, you have PAGs, you have like a bunch of different companies. And, you know, e-commerce, you know, is like a bunch of different companies. How is it that iFood was able to get like such a, you know, big market share of the ecosystem? There is competition there. There is two Chinese companies that just entered the market now. You said you have 90 %? Yeah, yeah. They just entered like the last month. So there is a lot of competition, much more competition right now.

30:24But there was Rappi also, right? Like last couple years. That's what I'm going to say. Actually, people think, ah, food is very big for some structural reason. Actually, no. We were, when I invested in iFood, it was very small. And we have, it was like the number, the third or the fourth company in the country. So it's not the number one. And food delivery? Yeah. What was it? What else was there? There was other three or four. What are the names? Restaurante Webby was one name. Oh, yeah. I kind of remember that. Another one was, I forgot. But there was many others. And then we executed well. We have the entrepreneurial behavior that makes companies grow faster.

31:04Patient people working a lot, testing a lot, learning a lot, having very big goals, sharing the benefit with everyone that are behaving really like owners. And we create this culture of innovating a lot, but have lots of discipline, being aggressive in the growth, aggressive in marketing and taking care of the customer. So we had four or five companies. We became the number one. Then Uber decided to enter in Brazil and create a lot of tension for us. Uber is a global leader. What our mindset was, we can play against Uber and we can win. And we played very well against Uber. Uber left Brazil a few years later.

31:45And when we said less players, then actually Happy entered and Happy raised$2 billion. I don't know if you remember that. I remember SoftBank, yeah. Yeah. SoftBank said$2 billion too happy to fight iFood. How did you fight that off? Technology, passionate people. I think many people raise lots of money and they started to lose the discipline of spending because it's other people money. It's VC money. we're always a company with our owner not only me be a nova but the mindset of the owner the mindset of we don't spend money destroy money we are very disciplined and the quality of the technology and the products and the quality of the marketing i think we really outperformance all those competitors then we had a good position in the last few years now we have more competition and we are ready to move faster, take more risk, improve products, keep an amazing team.

32:46And actually, as you know, now I'm running Prozos. We just acquired Just Eat's Takeaway, the biggest one in Europe. We also have one of the biggest in India, Swiggy. We have a big participation in Delivery Heroes. So we have now a much bigger thing than iFood. I think we have some Brazilians here listening too. Brazilians sometimes have, they think we are not good enough. Brazilians many times think that. But the technology we developed in iPhone today is being used in many countries in the world. And I'm very excited about that. That's awesome. Yeah, no, it's an amazing case. I had, you know, Will from Deliveroo in the podcast before.

33:26And, you know, it was hard to fight Uber, you know, and like fight DoorDash and all that. And, you know, they had some other competitors. But in Brazil, you guys were able to like do it. But maybe like, let's talk a little bit about how was that transition from iFood to Prozis? Like what happened? I remember just seeing the news, I'm like, what? It's funny, people say that, now you're not a founder anymore, you are an investor or you are, nothing changed in my life. I'm still the same founder doing all the crazy innovation and moving fast and testing new things. So how was this change? It was similar when I moved from Moveli to iFood.

34:05Remember, I told you that Mobili had a better culture and execution and innovation. And I moved to iFood and I rebuilt that. Then I was running iFood for, I don't know, seven or eight years, seven years. I think iFood is doing quite well. And I was very concentrated in making iFood a$100 billion company. That was our goal. It is our goal for iFood, actually. And then one day, Prozos called me, the board of Prozos, and said, what about come here and run everything? We have like 100 companies. Now we're getting closer to$15 billion in revenue. So it's a bigger company. All around the world, we are a big shareholder of Tencent.

34:44That is an amazing company. We have things in India, Europe. And my first reaction is, I am not a portfolio manager that's just like put the$5 million here or 10 there and wait five years. But my dream is to create the best tech company outside the US, a company that is all around the world and innovates a lot, as good as the best companies in California. I love this dream. And if I can do that in Prozos, I go tomorrow. And the guys told me, that's no, we are calling you because we want Prozos to be different a little. So I confirmed that. Are you sure? They said yes. Then I took an airplane and moved here a few weeks later.

35:23And it was a great experience. I think Prozos, it has been a great experience. For me, I'm learning a lot. Now I have business in India and now around Europe and Africa and really learn about this global scenario. It's amazing. Very few, as you said, Brazilians are running tech business all around the world. You have people from US, people from India, maybe. But Brazilians is very, very, very rare. Very small group. Yeah. So I'm learning a lot. That's why I'm here, because I can learn and do better. And how would you describe what Prozis is, I guess? so this is not a picture it's a movie let me explain why and it connects to your last question when I arrived the process was much more managing this portfolio with many investments around the world little connection and worse than that little synergies between all the companies that's what process was today process is a tech company focused in just three regions that is India, Europe and Latin America and as a tech company, we run culture, management model and innovation globally.

36:36So we select people, we train them, we put all of them together, we share every week what's happening in all the world with all the leaders. Everything that works in a small company in India or in Romania or in London, we say, oh my God, this is working well. Tell all the other leaders of the companies around the world what is working and share that. Because we have this, I think great companies in Brazil or even in Europe, they don't have the ecosystem that like Google or Microsoft or Meta have here in the US. What I changed the process to be is like a tech company that has a very big muscle in terms of development and innovation.

37:16So what we are doing in AI today is like cutting edge AI as very few companies can do that all around the world. So I transformed the process from more of a manager of investments to a tech group that is really betting to operate the best e-commerce in the world through AI and innovate and have a big impact in the products we are creating, the technology we are creating. Culture changed completely. They focused on innovation, speed, experimentation, risk. And I'm very confident we are going to do good things. How do you choose what to centralize and what to leave it at the companies themselves?

37:58Because great question. What I don't do, I think big companies, they say that's how we operate. We have this process. Everyone has to follow. This kill all the smaller companies and kill the innovation and the grit and the passion of the startups. That's not how we do. What we do is we have a big vision of the future. Our big vision requires exceptional execution, exceptional innovation, and exceptional people. When we share this big vision, many of the companies say, wow, this vision is amazing and I can contribute. And the vision includes saying, your company is going to be the best in the world what you're doing.

38:37Our technology is going to be the best in the world in how to treat customers or partners or the interface that we are using with the customers or how we use AI. When you have a big vision, you start to deliver that big vision, everyone wants to go along because people want to win and want to be part of a winning team. So instead of I say, that's what you have to do, we try to define a vision and invite everyone to run together with us or faster than us and build this vision together. So many of the things that we are doing in the center, the companies are not replicating because we're not making a process and asking everyone to replicate.

39:19But a few things I centrally say, for example, being the best in your region in AI is a requirement. But don't come here and just follow the process. You have to hire the amazing people. You have to create your software. But we have all the knowledge open for you. So the best managers, they take all the knowledge, they learn everything, and they run like crazy to be the best, let's say, in India. Some people say, I don't care. And sometimes we own many companies. When the people say, I don't care, we don't try to enforce the process. We change the management. Because I want management that say, I really am going to be the best in the world.

40:07And sometimes people ask me, but I'm a minority in many companies. There are many companies that we are minority investors. And people say, but how do you enforce that this minority investment, they are going to really have the greed to be the best in the world in something? It's super simple. If your vision is good and you are really pushing for exceptional execution, the best founders in my experience, they say, wow, that is good. I can have 10 % in a company. And if they say what we are doing, what we call large commerce model, how we are using AI to understand better preference of customers, people say, I want to do that.

40:45Please open everything to me. We are going to copy that. And if a minority company says, no, I don't want, it's super simple, sell. I don't want to be a partner of someone that says, I don't care about how to use the best AI in the world. So either way, it works. Would you consider yourself a conglomerate? Is that a fair word to describe you guys or no? I see myself as a tech company that has many tech companies that own many tech companies and we work together. I guess my question was because I was trying to... I'm curious if you studied other companies that have similar characteristics that potentially grew through acquiring or investing in different companies around the world.

41:32Have you studied them? What did you learn? What are the other companies that you kind of... I studied many of them. Many of them are conglomerates. I just think that this is an old name for old companies. That's why I don't like it very much. But many of them, first, we are in the U.S. We are today in New York. The model that I'm trying to run works sometimes less here. But I think the market here, if you are an American, listen to us. It's going to make less sense of what we are doing. Because here we have so much capital. So much, it's so easy to raise more money and you have many people making bets and taking risks.

42:12Maybe that's why we have so many amazing companies here in the US. But if you look to Brazil or Europe or Africa or India or even Southeast Asia, you don't have a lot of capital in this capability of learning fast and hiring and moving faster. So being a company that has this ability to test a lot and when something goes well, you double down, you invest much more. It's a competitive advantage, I think, more outside of US, much more than here in US. And if you look to China, for example, you have many companies like Tencent or Alibaba or ByteDance that they have many, many business connected to them.

42:55Many in case of Tencent, thousands, hundreds. Alibaba, the same thing. If you look to South Korea or to many areas in Southeast Asia, you see also, or even Japan, this benefit of the scale of working together with companies where you can have some synergies. Yeah, no, it's super interesting. I always describe to people that, like, why don't super apps exist in the US compared to the rest of the world? And like, capital is really a moat outside of the US, right? Like, you know, here, like, you see a$100 million seed round every other week, you know, like, you know,$100 million in these other countries is...

43:31I have an idea. So it's$100 million. Yeah, exactly. That's not how life works. Yeah. Everywhere. Yeah, anywhere but California, basically. Exactly. But because there are so many important people here in the tech world, many of them really think that's how the world is. It's not. It's not, yeah. So I can do$100 million bet anywhere in the world. And this is a competitive advantage. And when I do that together with an ecosystem, the last two weeks we had 60 people in Amsterdam we have like AI house Amsterdam where we have every week five events per week where we just do people doing AI people in the valley can think wow that's normal in the valley who does that in Amsterdam it's us we created that and the last two weeks we did internal events 60 people really creating a fine tuning model so I took the QN model and we moved 60 people from around the world to create models to each one of our companies using the best technology we have to personalize on e-commerce.

44:40We had people from South Africa and India and everywhere. They don't have access to fly to a place and do that kind of training and learning and all the tools that we have. So they have access of the best tools and the best way that we can do that in a lab in California. And we just did it with 60 people from now around the world for 10 days without sleep to do that. So you see, we create this environment that people can learn from the best ones, know what works. And when something works, we can invest$100 million overnight. That's what we are. And what are other kind of nuances that you think that the average American entrepreneur investor underappreciates about how it is to do business in the rest of the world?

45:26Yeah, I think the Americans have amazing results. So I'm a big fan of the results of the Americans. But many of them doesn't understand the dynamics around, of lack of capital, of lack of ecosystem, of a very positive thing on the Americans. They are much more risk-taking and want to do things and let's do it fast and get to a result. Now I'm a Dutch-Brazilian. I am a little from Netherlands, a little from Brazil. And the mindset is a little different. I've been criticizing a lot Europe, not only criticizing, but I've been very active going to Brussels and talking to all our politicians saying it's time to change the mindset, to take risks, move faster, deregulate.

46:11So it's very different how the Europeans see that and the Americans. I think the Americas sometimes underestimate what is happening outside. So I'll give you a few examples. What the Chinese are doing in AI is very good, but it's quite common to listen to people here saying, yeah, they're just copying us. Maybe not. It's very good, very good. And I go to, I travel all around the world every month. In Beijing or in Shenzhen, people are innovating really, really, really fast. in robotics, they're doing really, really well. For example, China on AI. A second example, in India, Americans sometimes say, no, we are just going to make our companies work there.

46:56But the dynamics are so different, the cost, the purchasing power and the capabilities of the economics of the business are so different. So we have a company called Misho that's IPO in December 10. They are amazing because they sell, I don't remember their number now, I don't remember what is public, but like many hundreds of millions of items per month and number one in the country. But their average order value is like, it's less than$5. I don't know what's the public number, but it's less than$5. You see, a typical tech company in US, they work with a different world in terms of economics.

47:37So the quality of innovation inside Misho to operate with those costs is amazing. We have another company in India called Rapido. They double the size of Uber there. And most of their rides are on Tuk-Tuk. I don't remember how to say that in English. I think it's Tuk-Tuk. Yeah. And they charge like, the number is crazy. I'm from Brazil and to me the number is crazy. Like one cent. It's less than one cent of dollar for sure per ride. And they are the double of the size of Uber and like millions. less than one cent of their part so what they charge is unbelievable ship wow it's a number that I think how we can operate on that so the mindset of operating in a country with 1.5 billion people in the different economics many Americans doesn't understand this how efficient you have to be exactly and I'm saying the Chinese are not copying they are innovating and the Indian they are not like just like it's worst they are innovating to operate a big business with thousands of people and millions of orders per month, they have to be super good to do that.

48:45So I think appreciating all of that is... So what kind of business do you think works well in emerging markets? So because like clearly, for example, software and SaaS is like, basically doesn't exist outside of the US. But in the US, it's like one of the favorite kind of like, or was at least till this year, but... Yeah, it's true. And last six months, I don't know what this... But let's say for the last two decades, it's been kind of like a favorite. My intuition is always that the better ideas in Emergent Marge is really big ideas that are kind of like, they're not niche, they're kind of like core infrastructure for the country.

49:24But I'm curious, what are your views? And when you're looking at an idea outside of the US, what are the things that kind of make a good idea? I agree with you of the software SaaS preference here. When over the last one year that I'm in process, I also look to that in comparison to what I see elsewhere. I think the scale or the capital, the ability to invest capital in the long term and take risks here makes a very big difference. Because imagine if you are in Europe or in Brazil or in India, many of these software as a service companies, they start operating. They take many years to become profitable.

50:05They require you to invest, to grow internationally and lose a lot of money during this process. I think the U.S. is able to take risks on that and to fund that, take more risks in the beginning and then bet to expand internationally faster than everyone else. I don't think the technology to do that you have in the valley and don't have in the world. But there is this economics of the capability to invest to create really big winners here that enables US to have a successful business on this area. I think it's also because the US companies pay more for it, I guess, because like labor is more expensive.

50:50I heard some argument that like, you know, in India, it's like just cheaper to have like five people doing a thing than it is to kind of like do software. Yeah. But I don't know. Like, what do you think? I think US, you do software because it's more expensive and you have the ability to scale it in a format that's going to become very cheap to everyone all around the world. Because you're trying to create really a global business. It's much more different to say in India, for example, I'm going to create a global business. I just need$300 million. Like no one's going to give you$300 million in India to do that.

51:25So I think business that has like a more local connection or requires to interact with the local institutions, it's easier to create local champions when you require logistics or you require payments I know fintech is a business that's a big one in emerging markets exactly big one and you see you have the Brex case and the Stone case now you have the NewBank case and even Revolut also in Europe so you see it's an area that Europe and Latin America and in China also in India also China has the the WeShedPay and the payments from Alibaba. In India, also, you have the UPI, where you can do payments faster.

52:09So you see in fintech, that is more regulated, that is more local, and you need to consider much more the local connections. You have many, many global success cases. I think in the local commerce, that's an area that we are coming from with iFood. Also, you're required to have the local partnerships that you need to execute quite well locally. And you have many players around the world doing that as well. Yeah, makes a ton of sense. I guess, like, what's been something that after you joined Prozas that you're having to learn that you didn't have to learn before? Like, what's a new skill and capability you're having to acquire for this job now?

52:51I'm learning a lot. I think the reason I'm there, I'm here in Prozas, is to learn. I learned a lot in iFood in Brazil to create a very nice Brazilian business. But the beauty of going global is learn a lot. And I learned a lot going to, for example, India and China, because they are innovating in ways that we are not thinking about that in Europe, nor in the US, nor in Latin America. So I really learned a lot about India and China. to me Europe is an amazing opportunity so I'm very happy to have the opportunity to learn and also to influence Europe because you know Europe market is more or less the size of US a little less smaller now it was the same size 10 years ago now it's a little smaller 15 % smaller but you have $20 trillion in the top 10 companies here and maybe half trillion dollars or$1 trillion in the top 10 companies in Europe So understand what is the work ethics there and what people value in the culture and understand how to interact with them.

53:59Not only understand, but then try to influence because I think there is a big, big opportunity there in Europe. I guess Europe is a good one. Like what do you think is preventing more kind of like, you know, maybe trillion dollar European company? Well, yeah, I guess Nova Nordisk was almost there, but, you know, I think it's not. Which one? Novo Nordisk, the GLP-1. I don't remember their number now, but they're doing well. What's preventing? I think that is an amazing report. Many people don't know here in the US from Mario Draghi. We talked, have you heard about it? It's very, very famous. It's 20 years old now.

54:35We call it Draghi Report, but that is like another name, like competitiveness in Europe. But you could call Draghi Report. He was a former central banker in Europe. And he writes like 100 pages explaining what makes Europe moving slow. And the president of European Commission said, that's my strategic goal and I'm going to change that. And I think most of the politicians in Europe, they agree we have to change. So a few things. At last, I'm going to talk about work ethics, but like red tape. Europe, for 20, 30 years, they said, we have an idea, so let's start regulating. And they put people together in Brussels and they create rules about that new idea.

55:18It's crazy. The way you have to talk about sustainability and AI and reporting on everything in e-commerce, I have so many laws. Many people say this is Brussels' fault. I would say a more polemic thing. Yes, it's Brussels' fault too. But sometimes the European people, they are open to this bureaucracy. Many times I'm in a meeting inside the company, people say, let's check all the regulations. Let's see what is coming. I say, guys, stop regulation. You're talking about creating the future through AI. First, we create the future. Then we understand what is the regulation, how we make it work. Because if you start saying, let's read the red tape before you develop the software, you're not going to create something amazing.

56:02So I think that is excessive, not only in Brussels, but in the mindset on let's model the future before you create the future. I think it's a big mistake. But there is a second thing that maybe, I couldn't see it from outside. European Union is amazing, but it's still 27 countries with their own legislation, their own politicians. Culture. Language. Language. Yeah. And then you have on top of that some bureaucrats that say you have to do everything considering the language and culture and the requirements of each one of the 27 countries. So the reality is there's a big thing called the 28th regime or EU Inc.

56:41that says we have to make sure that for a startup, for technology, or for any business, you should register and follow one set of simplified law and you can sell in all 27 countries without having to adapt to all the local legislation. There is not one single capital market either. So you cannot like investing everywhere. And then there's something that I think it's a big mistake, big, big mistake, is that the mindset in terms of consolidation or the competition authorities, they really want to have in each one of the 27 local companies competing. So Europe didn't consolidate to have big telecom companies, nor big banks, nor big software companies.

57:23I just, we had two big food delivery companies and the European Commission asked us to sell one of the two. So here in the US, you want to create a global leader. In Europe, the competition authorities ask you to create companies in each country instead of understanding that the competition is not between Italy and France. is between Europe and US, Latin America, India, and China. So it's like, how do we create a local loser, you know, where like the Chinese and American ones have so much more money and comes and like wins the markets. And then you have five local losers that lose. The good news is that the politicians clearly perceive that we need to change that.

58:03Hope it will be in Silicon Valley speed. You didn't mention labor a lot too. That's at least the one I hear the most here in the US than like labor law in Europe makes it very complicated to hire and fire in. I will get to the work ethics was my last point. Labor law and labor mindset. Firing is very difficult. Sometimes you have to say, you have to get to an agreement to the people to fire someone. The people say, no, I don't want to be fired. And then spend one year or... Debating if they're going to be fired. Yes. Then you have to pay for a lot to the people leave. And then people can think, yeah, because you have to preserve the jobs.

58:42It's a big mistake because you preserve the job and the company fail. And then the company fight everyone or the company doesn't grow. So how many jobs we created here in the US because we have very successful tech companies, millions of jobs and trillions in value. And in Europe, you said, I'm going to preserve that five jobs and the company is not a winner. So there is a word ethics in terms of that and also a word work ethics in terms of really, I think winning. What we are doing there in Proz is, let me tell you the good thing there, the level of smart people with a very good education, talking about disruptive industries and technology is very high.

59:21So you have the education to create the future leaders, but you don't have the capital or the work ethics or the competition rules to do that. But in work ethics also, sometimes we need to think as winners. If you are in California, you leave it there, right? I live here. But used to be there before. There is this thing here in New York too. Like, I'm going to be the best in the world. 100%. Actually, you can meet a guy with like 25 years and he's going to say, I'm the best in the world on that. And what do you have with you? No, it's just me and my partner. And we are the best in the world. And this is normal, right?

59:59Very normal. This is the default. In Europe, sometimes you have a very different work ethic. of like, I have to talk about the regulation and what are my benefits and how I reduce my risk of being fired. So I think sometimes you miss the winning culture. Like, forget the rest. I'm going to be the best in the world because I'm going to work a lot all the time, including nights and Saturdays and Sundays until I create something that transforms the world. Many times, even companies in Europe doesn't think like that. and I think Prozos is contributing aggressively saying we are here to create the leader in the world and many people is living Prozos and it's part of life if it doesn't fit this culture but because we are reinforcing so aggressively that's our culture many people are also joining Prozos because they say that's what I want to build so I think we are in a moment of the full way is to say let's just keep working but we are now in a moment to say Europe has to fight back.

1:01:09Hope Proz is going to contribute a little if that's true. For, you know, any potential kind of, you know, we have a lot of people in finance listening and people who like to buy and trade stocks. I know Proz is a publicly listed company. If you had to, you know, explain the strategy that you have for the next five years of like why someone should be like a Proz shareholder, like what would that be? Super easy process today, as many conglomerates, trades on our discounts on our not-asset values. And maybe because a few people didn't see our vision. I think we didn't execute that well the last few years.

1:01:54But what process is today is extremely, extremely exciting. First, we focus in a few regions, as I said, India, Europe, and Latin America, and really creating champions there. In Latin America, we have iFood with many companies around. In Europe now, we have Just Eat. We are building an ecosystem around Just Eat. And in India, we have 30 investments, the best tech companies in India is part of our portfolio. But the best thing to me is not only good execution, it's how we are really innovating to create the future. So the two things that I'm more excited right now, what we call large commerce model.

1:02:28That means we take all our data and we have 2 billion customers and we train a model. We fine-tune models with all the data. It's a very different way to look how AI changes e-commerce. For example, iFood has 200 models running iFood. Now we take all the data and we train one model that can predict everything. And this is very, very magical. It's a chat GPT moment where we can understand about our customers, their demands, about how a food delivery customer, what are their demands to travel, for example, and our model can predict that because we have so much data on that. I think the innovation we are doing that is best in class in the world.

1:03:09Also in the agents world, we have today 20 ,000 agents and we are running agents, for example, to talk to restaurants, partners, customers. And we have today, we calculate around 5 ,000 extra people working in pros just because our agents are behaving as regular employees or newborn beings. So I think we are quite ahead in how to use AI to change our business. I'm very happy with that. At the same time, the company is really, every time, growing faster, and we are going to deliver a few billion dollars in profits this year and next year. So I think the process has been through a big change, and my suggestion is it's still on discount, so better to do it now than to regret later.

1:03:57It's awesome. Fabio, I know we're at time, but so grateful that you do this. Thank you so much. And it's awesome to see another Brazilian taking over the world. Pleasure to be here. Hope to come back to tell. We need a part two, honestly. Exactly. That's the part two when we are getting back to$200,$300 billion. Perfect. Let's do it. Amazing. Thank you. Thanks to our friends at Atomic Growth for helping with production and distribution.