In short
Joey, a socially anxious 22-year-old after art school, tries to become “invisible” in a downtown LA loft, then gets wrongly accused of stealing vegetarian pizza slices. He seeks help to face people, clear his name at the pizza parlor, apologize to his roommates, and rebuild confidence.
Guest backgrounds
Joey is the episode’s subject (young Jonathan Goldstein’s “encore” story). His twin sister Elise is his long-time social support. Gregor is a friend of the host who role-plays and coaches Joey through practice and real-world exposure.
Key claims
Avoiding social contact made Joey’s anxiety worse; rehearsing “icebreakers” wasn’t enough. Direct, face-to-face apologies and honest explanations helped roommates soften. Letting Joey act alone (with support) was crucial.
Notable examples
hiding in a bush after missing a trolley stop; eating mostly day-old dollar slices; the chef’s “don’t come back” accusation; Joey’s unscripted repartee with the chef; apologizing to roommate Zach, who lists chores/headphones grievances; ending with a check-in where Joey says he now lives in New York with zero roommates and still rides bikes/rollerblades.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOThe Story of Joey
2:14 to 3:53
Jonathan Goldstein narrates the story of Joey and his struggles with social anxiety.
“There's something interesting about how seamlessly certain tools fit into daily life.”
The Story of Joey
3:59 to 14:00
Jonathan Goldstein narrates the story of Joey and his struggles with social anxiety.
“behavioral scientist and author of the best-selling book, How to Change.”
Joey's Pizza Incident and Emotional Fallout
14:00 to 20:32
Joey faces humiliation and confusion after a pizza incident leads to emotional turmoil and the need to apologize.
“Flipping through the dollar slices and then abruptly leaving in silence, looked fishy, like Joey was stealing pizza.”
Joey's Pizza Incident and Emotional Fallout
21:34 to 21:44
Joey faces humiliation and confusion after a pizza incident leads to emotional turmoil and the need to apologize.
“Cut your wireless bill to 15 bucks a month at mintmobile.com slash heavyweight.”
Role-Playing for Social Confidence
21:44 to 28:00
Joey practices social interactions with Gregor to overcome his anxiety and gain confidence.
“It can be applied for right in the wallet app on iPhone, and approval can happen in minutes.”
Boarding the Plane and Aviation Stories
28:00 to 29:35
Listeners will hear amusing anecdotes about aviation and personal experiences on flights.
“you're allowed to run past those people.”
Meeting Joey and Preparing for the Pizza Parlor
29:35 to 31:34
The hosts meet Joey and discuss strategies for his impending apology at the pizza parlor.
“From here, we plan to head to the pizza parlor, get him unbanned, and then go to the loft so Joey can apologize to his former roommates.”
Joey's Journey to Apologize
31:34 to 36:19
Joey rollerblades into the pizza shop to apologize, showcasing personal growth.
“Are you getting the reference to the shine box?”
Sponsor: ChatGPT
36:19 to 37:45
Learn how ChatGPT can enhance project management and efficiency.
“After the break, Joey tries rolling up a much harder hill, apologizing to people he actually knows.”
Sponsor: ChatGPT
38:47 to 40:14
Learn how ChatGPT can enhance project management and efficiency.
“Cut your wireless bill to$15 a month at mintmobile.com slash heavyweight.”
Show all 18 chapters
Joey's Nervous Encounter with Roommates
40:24 to 42:00
Joey confronts his former roommates, facing tension and uncertainty.
“check out new episodes of Grown Up Stuff on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.”
Joey's Awkward Return
42:00 to 44:14
Joey confronts his past mistakes while trying to apologize to his former roommates.
“is certainly giving off that vibe, a Venetian boatman vibe.”
Facing the Grievances
44:14 to 47:34
Joey is confronted by Zach about his past behavior as a roommate, leading to an uncomfortable yet revealing conversation.
“I haven't heard this much mealy-mouthing since, I guess, an hour ago when Joey was at the pizza parlor.”
A Toast to New Beginnings
47:34 to 48:52
Joey shares pizza and kombucha with his former roommates, leading to a lighter moment of camaraderie.
“And what better fertilizer than a mutual love of the mullet?”
Embracing Awkwardness
48:52 to 50:15
Gregor lightens the mood with a humorous bathroom moment, showcasing the importance of embracing life's awkwardness.
“You're supposed to actually look up, look at each other's eyes.”
A Phone Call with Elise
50:15 to 52:12
Joey reflects on his growth during a supportive phone call with his twin sister Elise.
“After leaving the loft, there's only one thing left to redo.”
Joey's Life Update
52:12 to 55:58
A light-hearted reunion with former roommates as they catch up on Joey's life and changes since their last encounter.
“Gregor and I had brought this big bird down.”
Reflecting on Growth
56:00 to 56:49
Joey discusses his personal growth and reflections over the years.
“but also just hearing it back over the years.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:06Pushkin.
0:11Kalilah Holt, welcome to the studio. You don't have to welcome me to the studio every time. I feel welcome. I think the welcome carries over week to week. I am a host of a nationally broadcast podcast. It's what we do. Host with the most. We're contractually obliged to welcome our guests and you are my guest. Make no mistake about it. Are you going to like offer me something to drink or? No. So now we're going to be listening to a encore presentation of a little episode called Joey. Yes. And actually there is a line in this story that I still quote that we both still quote. Oh, that's true. At the end of our meeting.
0:50Yeah, that's true. Sometimes one person will say to the other, adios. Yeah. I think it's see you guys later. Adios. Yeah. And as you listen, you'll be able to hear where that quote comes from. Yeah. So maybe you guys can work that into your lives, too. All right. So let's get to it. Coming right up, an encore presentation of Joey. And at the end of the episode, we're going to check in with Joey and a surprise guest. I can't wait to find out who it is. It's not you. Nope. You're a guest, but you're not a surprise guest. No, people are like, yeah, it makes sense that she's here. But first, a word from our sponsors.
1:30This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human. This is Jacob Goldstein from Business History. When the internet arrived, most people used it to look things up. Others saw what it could really do. The same is true with ChatGPT. ChatGPT work goes beyond answering questions. Give it a goal, plus things like notes, files, feedback, data, or project plans, and it can help create a brief, analysis, deck outline, tracker, or workflow. You stay in control, reviewing the work and choosing the final result. Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Get started at chatgpt.com by selecting Work Mode, available on Plus and Pro plans.
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2:58It's simply daily cash back that I earn on every purchase. There's even an option to open a high-yield savings account through Apple Card. And while I haven't done it yet, if I do, my daily cash can grow automatically over time without any extra effort. Because Apple Card lives in the Wallet app, it's always accessible on iPhone and can be used with Apple Pay at over 85 % of merchants in the U.S. And the security of Face ID and Touch ID prevents unauthorized purchases, whether using iPhone or Apple Watch. To explore it yourself, you can apply for AppleCard in the Wallet app on your iPhone. Subject to credit approval, savings is available to AppleCard owners subject to eligibility.
3:45Savings in AppleCard by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City Branch, member FDIC, terms and more at AppleCard.com. This episode is brought to you by Choiceology, an original podcast from Charles Schwab, hosted by the amazing Katie Milkman, behavioral scientist and author of the best-selling book, How to Change. Choiceology is a show about the psychology and economics behind our decisions. Each episode shares the latest research in behavioral science and dives into themes like the power of self-control, shaping your mindset for success, navigating new beginnings, and why starting over can feel so hard.
4:22Katie talks to authors, athletes, Nobel laureates, and everyday people about why we make irrational choices and how to make better choices to help avoid costly mistakes. You'll learn about tools and strategies to help improve your decision-making and a ton of other fantastic things about the mind. Listen and subscribe at schwab.com slash podcast or find it wherever you listen to your shows.
4:49Hi, John. Okay, if I were to plan a surprise vacation for us, Where would you want to go? Did you say vacation? Surprise vacation. It could just never happen with my work schedule. Like, that could never happen. Where would you want to go? Why would I want to go? For fun in the sun. Listen to how stressed you sound. The idea of actually being on vacation with you? Nice idea. It would be a vacation with it, Johnny. It would be a sleigh-cation because we'd do everything on a sleigh. We'd dash through the snow and, I don't know, like, check our phones and argue occasionally. You'd hang up on me. and I'd start the show.
5:26Ba-dum-bum!
5:33From Gimlet Media, I'm Jonathan Goldstein, and this is Heavyweight. Today's episode, Joey.
5:52As a young man, whenever conflict arose, my go-to move was to roll up into a fetal ball and pray to go unnoticed. Of course, this only made matters worse. Case in point, one afternoon while riding a trolley, I fell into a daydream and missed my stop. Anyone else in my position might have yelled, I missed my stop, or open the door, please. But in imagining all these trolley-riding strangers turning around to stare at me, my mind went blank. So I decided it might be simpler, draw less attention, if I just jumped off. As I landed onto the street, I heard a high-pitched scream that I would later realize was coming from me.
6:39Instead of drawing less attention, I was now center stage. The trolley conductor skidded to a halt, and all the passengers ran to the windows to watch as I painfully crawled into a nearby bush. Once in the bush, I hid, waiting for the trolley to leave.
7:01For a young Jonathan Goldstein, the cost of staying silent that day was two twisted ankles and the loss of my pride. Hey, Joey. Hey there. It's awesome to hear from you. This is young Joey, and he recently had a bad day that forced him to realize his fear of being seen. His fear of speaking up was exacting a far greater cost than a mere double ankle injury. It was ruining his life. And so he's reached out for help from me. and just never get myself in a situation like this again. Joey is 22 years old, and the lead-up to his terrible, horrible, no-good, very bad day begins right after his art school graduation when he moved into an artist's loft in downtown L.A.
7:49Living that downtown city life, kind of living, the communal living style. The downside was that the loft had bedsheets for walls and six roommates. But the plus side? The loft had bedsheets for walls and six roommates, six super cool roommates, a DJ, a doll maker, a photographer, a guy who, quote, trimmed weed and super coolest of all, a podcaster. And I pictured these cool artist types having great parties and a lot of cool people over, and all the artists in the L.A. scene would come through, and I was going to come in and hopefully fit in immediately. But Joey didn't fit in immediately. He never felt comfortable just hanging out with everyone, never knew what to say.
8:40And so he ended up spending most of his time alone in his room, rehearsing icebreakers. I like your tattoo, he'd repeat to himself. Your tattoo? I like it. Sweet tat, he'd say, pointing limply at the mirror like a socially crippled Travis Bickle. Unable to come up with anything that felt right, paralysis set in. Joey began spending all day in his room, a shadow behind a bedsheet. They'd all be in the living room right next to my room. hanging out, watching a movie, you know, drinking, hanging, doing the thing. And I would be in my room just, like, making people uncomfortable by not, you know, being out there.
9:24Joey had been living in the loft several weeks when he realized just how isolated he'd become. One day, while waiting outside the bathroom, he ran into one of his new roommates. She was like, oh, hi, what's your name? Oh, um, where do you live? I was like, uh, here? I live here.
9:51Eventually, Joey began avoiding the loft altogether. He'd spend every day wandering the streets, only returning in the evening. When I was back in my house at night, I would sneak into my room and then make sure I didn't drink too much water so that my bladder was empty so I wouldn't have to leave my room to pee. My new goal was to just be as unobtrusive as a roommate as possible, be invisible. So in this time, I would just try to spend all my day out of the house, out on my rollerblades, which I had also recently taken up. Everyone needs a hobby, and Joey found one that provided both good exercise as well as a way to free himself from the oppressive yoke of human dignity.
10:38And so it was while rollerblading that Joey discovered his new home away from home, the pizza parlor. The pizza parlor played cool music and had cool art on the walls. It even served cool pizza. There was one shaped like a marijuana leaf, and others shaped like circles. But because Joey was Joey, even a simple thing like ordering pizza was a challenge. And so, he rehearsed his icebreakers. I found myself like making sure I could you know have something to say like preparing something for the quick interaction while I buy my pizza like what kind of thing I don't know like if it's raining out I would have something clever to say about that or give me an example of the clever thing that you would say when it was raining I'd say oh man bummer and this is not rollerblading weather.
11:32Okay. Like, I would, or I don't know what I'm trying to say. Slowly, Joey began making social inroads, even managing to earn himself a nickname, that rollerblading guy. His fantasies of fun and friendship with his bohemian loft buddies were over, but his fantasies of fun and friendship with his bohemian pizza parlor buddies had only just begun. I had planned on continuing to visit there and making these friendships grow and hopefully progressing them to real-life friendships outside of the shop.
12:10And so every morning, Joey would blade straight to the self-service refrigerator that housed the day-old dollar slices. I pretty much exclusively ate pizza from that moment on. For all your meals? Pretty much. There was definitely days that went by when it was just pizza. Like how many slices a day were you eating? I'd say four or five, two for breakfast, and then stick them in my backpack for the rest of the day. What were you doing for fruits and vegetables? I occasionally got the veggie slice. And that was Joey's life. Eating za, rolling blades, and waiting for old man scurvy. until one terrible, horrible, no good, very bad day.
12:58January 14th was like every other day. I woke up to go get my pizza, I headed into the shop, and unfortunately I only found pepperoni in the fridge. Joey is a vegetarian, and so, without having prepared anything clever to say, like, pepperoni pizza, oh man, bummer, pepperonis aren't vegetarian, He instead said nothing and tried to just rollerblade back out the door without anyone noticing. But he'd only bladed a couple blocks when he saw a familiar face biking towards him. And it's one of the pizza chefs, so I just thought he was going to, hell, I don't know, I thought he was going to say, what's up, man?
13:43Let's hang out. What's your name? I thought he was just interested in me. So I was excited to see him biking towards me. and I took off my headphones to greet him, and the first thing he said is, don't come back.
14:06I said, excuse me? He said, you're taking slices. I said, what? And then it clicked. Flipping through the dollar slices and then abruptly leaving in silence, looked fishy, like Joey was stealing pizza. And I was kind of like panicking talking to him. Like I could feel, I could hear the panic in my voice and stuff, but I didn't know what to say. So I kind of just, I was kind of speechless and I, you know, didn't have the confidence to keep fighting. Okay. Yeah, and then he biked away. I started crying on the streets and I must have looked ridiculous rollerblading down the street while crying. At that point, it was a terrible day.
14:53It became horrible, as well as no good, and very bad, when Joey, crying on the street, received a phone call, bearing more bad news.
15:07The roommates had been kind of talking, and they used the words, I'm getting under their skin. The roommates found Joey's silent, sneaky ways unsettling. They wanted him out. I, like, went and got my stuff. And, I don't know, I basically moved out in that moment. I, like, just left without seeing anybody. And I kind of ran away.
15:44As the day came to a close Joey called the one person he always calls The person he's leaned on his whole life Elise, his twin sister She gave me the same advice that everyone did Which is just, you know, go talk to them Be normal But, I don't know, I mean I never was able to take that advice from anybody Coming from her though, it was especially I felt especially bad. He was like almost in tears telling me this story. Elise knows Joey better than anyone, and he's relied on her socially his entire life. When he started dating, Elise introduced him to her friends, and when he was too anxious to attend family functions, Elise would go in his place.
16:30And he told me about how he cried, which is always, he doesn't cry that often. You could tell it was a big deal that he expressed, that he cried about it. And he told the whole story, and I was laughing so hard because it's a really funny story, and I wanted him to see that it was funny too, and he could see the humor in it, but he was also pretty clearly devastated. When I ask Elise what's so funny about her brother crying on the phone, she makes a pretty strong case, casually eviscerating him in the way only a loving sister can. Him and his rollerblades and often funny-looking tank tops, his creeper mustache and his mullet.
17:13Definitely just the look of him. Hang on a second. He has a mullet? Full mullet, full creepy young child mustache.
17:30And his shoulders and arms look strong, but they're small. And same with his legs His legs are shockingly skinny They do have an incredible shine to them, I will admit Does he apply ointments? I'm not sure that's ointment I'm guessing that's just his oily self
17:55I don't want Joey to have to wait years and years like I did Just to know the sweet joys of uncrippling an abnormality So I asked Joey's oily self what he most wants out of all this, and the answer he delivers is pretty to the point, almost like he's rehearsed it. I want to say sorry that I wasn't able to leave my room. I wish they knew how I felt, basically. But when I put forward my action plan, for Joey to fix his bad day by re-rollerblading through it, re-rollerblading back to the pizza parlor to clear his name, and re-rollerblading to the loft to apologize for being such a creepy, sneaky roommate, I can hear the beads of sweat squeak out of Joey's hairline and saturate his mullet.
18:42Right. Yeah, I'm definitely... Yeah, I've definitely been meaning to, but the prospect is pretty scary. I, you know, just mentioning it, I got nervous for sure. Joey still wants to be invisible, But decades of experience have taught me that oftentimes, the more invisible you try to make yourself, the more visible you become. So if I have my way, Joey will no longer have to hide in the metaphorical bush like a young metaphorical Jonathan Goldstein.
19:21After the break, helping Joey to stop spinning his wheels.
19:32This is Jacob Goldstein from Business History. Imagine Henry Ford trying to create the assembly line. He had factory plans, production schedules, supply information, research, and ideas coming from all directions. His team spent years studying how to make the process work. Now, imagine having ChatGPT work. ChatGPT work can help with big projects that have lots of steps. You give it the goal along with real information like notes, files, reports, feedback, and project plans. It can use approved apps, connected tools, and files to help turn all of that into something useful. A plan, an analysis, a tracker, a presentation outline, or a workflow you can keep improving.
20:14And you stay in control. You give direction, review the work, approve actions, and choose the final result. Would Henry Ford have built the assembly line faster with ChatGPT? We'll never know. Ford didn't have ChatGPT. You do. Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Get started at ChatGPT.com by selecting Work Mode, available on Plus and Pro plans. When we were kids, summer meant freedom. No homework, no teachers, no school. And as adults, summer still means freedom, thanks to Mint Mobile's summer sale. Right now, all of Mint's plans are $15 per month, even unlimited. So free yourself from big wireless and their gimmicks and gotchas and switch to Mint for high-speed data and coverage on the T-Mobile 5G network.
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22:13is one of those things. It can be applied for right in the wallet app on iPhone, and approval can happen in minutes. So it's ready to use immediately with Apple Pay. I'm so glad the days of finding my wallet, fishing out the credit card, using it, putting it back in my wallet, or oops, maybe I use cash, where's the ATM? Enough. The first time I used Apple Pay on my phone with my Apple Card, I was like, this is the future, there's no going back. With Apple Card, purchases earned daily cash up to 3 % with no points to track and no waiting for rewards. It's simply daily cash back that I earn on every purchase.
22:53There's even an option to open a high-yield savings account through Apple Card. And while I haven't done it yet, if I do, my daily cash can grow automatically over time without any extra effort. Because Apple Card lives in the Wallet app, it's always accessible on iPhone and can be used with Apple Pay at over 85 % of merchants in the U.S. And the security of Face ID and Touch ID prevents unauthorized purchases, whether using iPhone or Apple Watch. To explore it yourself, you can apply for Apple Card in the Wallet app on your iPhone. Subject to credit approval, savings is available to Apple Card owners subject to eligibility.
23:36Savings and Apple Card by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City Branch, member FDIC, terms and more at applecard.com.
23:47Okay, hold the line for a moment, Joey, all right? Sounds good. Hang on. I'm practicing my witty retorts anyways. Don't do that. Okay. During the ad break, while you were loading up on unbelievable deals, I was considering the full extent of Joey's dilemma. As much as Jonathan Debonair Goldstein wanted to help him, the truth is Jonathan Stuart Goldstein is actually a lot like Joey. And so I made a phone call to an old friend, a man whose example and critical feedback, some might say overly critical feedback, have helped me to become the animalist socialibus I am today. Happy, confident, out of the shrubs and loving it.
Read the full transcript
24:33And I was hoping he could work the same magic on Joey. Joey, this is my friend Gregor. Howdy. Hi. So Joey was living in this loft and he... Gregor is the exact opposite of Joey and me. In any given social interaction, he's never afraid to stand out. Never afraid to say the wrong thing. Case in point? Was Johnny kidding when he said you were wearing rollerblades? No, I am a rollerblader. But so you rollerbladed into the store wearing your rollerblades? That's right. I have these very vivid memories of being in Central Park and seeing these people, mostly grown men, on rollerblades with that folded hands over the lower back and their body bent forward, like zipping around in like a Lycra skin suit.
25:19The big giant grin as they gasp for breath and like goggles on. You got all that out of your system? I hate rollerbladers and I hate everything about rollerblades. But I think most people don't have the courage to ask for help. It takes a very big man to ask for help. Okay, so the guy wants the rollerblade fine. Since Joey feels most comfortable when he's rehearsing social interactions, I suggest we do some role-playing. Joey plays himself, and Gregor plays the pizza shop owner. After ten minutes deliberating over his character's name, Gregor decides on Carmine. Please, call me Carmine. All right, stop.
25:54Just trying to add a little depth to the character. Don't do that. Once I finish offering some helpful direction, we begin. So, okay, so you're the owner. I'll do the Foley work. I'll make any necessary sounds, okay? Joey, you're coming into the pizza parlor. Tingle, tingle. Hey, so it's been a long time. I don't know if you heard.
26:22I had a bit of a... Joey trails off. Even in a simulation, his nerves get the better of him. I try to inspire him with more Foley work. Tingle, tingle. The place is starting to fill up a little, so you might want to spit it out. Tingle, tingle. Tingle, tingle. Oh, my God, it's like Radiolab. Suddenly, a monkey came in. Gregor. Call me Carmine. The whole duration of this shoot, I need to be in character. I'm like Daniel Day-Lewis. I will only answer if you call me Carmine. Why did I even have you be the shop owner? Why wasn't I the shop owner? I could be your son who's got like bigger dreams. I don't want to spend my whole life flinging pizzas.
27:05You're derailing this. Dad, I got big dreams. I want to get into real estate, commercial real estate. I want to lease laundromats. See, I'm not like you. You really? I want to have a self-storage unit. They're very profitable. Don't you see? Now we're gelling as a team right at the very end as you start to fade us down. You can't even hear what I'm saying anymore. Sure, Gregor was taking none of the work seriously, but Joey was enjoying Gregor. And in his own way, Gregor was enjoying Joey. It looked like Gregor was in.
27:43I notice that you like to sit very close to the gate. Yeah. Gregor and I meet at the airport for the flight to see Joey in L.A. While squatting on the floor, staring fixedly at the gate, Gregor shares some insider tips on air travel. Because when they say extra time getting down the jetway, you're allowed to run past those people.
28:09You're allowed. See, like, I could easily outrun that little girl in the purple. Anyway, Johnny, stick with me. I'm going to show you how to board this big bird. That's what I say to the pilot when I board the plane. Let's bring this big bird down, brother. That way he knows I'm a member of the fraternity of aviation.
28:41Once we've boarded, running down the jetway like a couple of giggling idiots, Gregor regales me with stories. The time Lou Reed threatened to put an ashtray through his head. No, he didn't. Yeah, a big, heavy glass one. The time a taxi driver told him he had eyes like his dead brothers. That's a terrible story. The time all dozen or so members of the Wu-Tang Clan squeezed onto his living room couch. He asked for my seat to trade. Then come the aviation stories. All the flights he's been on where people have died. But then there was another flight I was on when someone died right next to me. And they were literally doing the thing on the PA where they're like, if there's any doctors on board.
29:18And I was like, I'm kind of a doctor. How are you kind of a doctor? I'm a very good diagnostician. Look, we're on 25RL. It's one of my favorite runways.
29:32Gregor and I rent a car and meet up with Joey at his favorite coffee shop. From here, we plan to head to the pizza parlor, get him unbanned, and then go to the loft so Joey can apologize to his former roommates. Morning, morning. Nice to meet you. Hi, how are you? Hi. I'm good. Nice to meet you. How are you? As well as being rollerblade-footed, Joey's just as chopstick-legged, mustache-lipped, and mullet-headed as his sister Elise had cautioned. Did it take you a while to decide, like, what you were going to wear today? Joey seems anxious, so I ask him, Joey, are you anxious? But before he can answer, Gregor steps in.
30:13Johnny, let's take it from here. You don't want to make the guy nervous by asking me if he was nervous. Why don't we go around in a circle and each say a member of the Wu-Tang until we get to online? With his idiot's game, what Gregor's really doing is distracting Joey, protecting him. In this case, protecting him from me. Ready? Okay. I'll start. The RZA. The JZA. Um, WZA? Stop. There's no JZA. There's the JZA, the genius. Genius, okay. Stop number one. The pizza parlor. Is this the place? What time are they open? 11? Oh, I'm getting nervous. My stomach is jumping. Oh, wait, here. Joey, I have something for you, just in case.
30:54As Joey's mentor, I know he runs a pretty good chance of choking, so I prepared him some notes during my flight. Okay, here you go. Read this. All right, I'll see. You guys were like family to me, and when you accused me of theft, I... No, no, try it slower. You guys were like family. Oh, my God, here we go. Enunciate each word. Go ahead. You guys were like family to me, and when you accused me of theft, I mishandled the situation. I became discombobulated. I should have defended myself, told you I'm no thief. Although we want to offer Joey help, it's important that he do this on his own. No Gregor, no Jonathan, no Elise.
31:33We'll be there with cue cards and emotional support, but ultimately, Joey needs to enter the pizza shop and make his case solo. We're going to let Joey shine. Yeah, I mean, I think like... You bring your shine box, Joey? Are you getting the reference to the shine box? That would be a... You guys got a lot of references, I don't know. Have you seen Goodfellas? Do your Joe Pesci for Joey, just to loosen him up a little. Dad was one tough Irishman. I put his head in a vice three days until his eyeballs popped out.
32:08Get two vegetarian pizzas. I instruct Joey to order pizza and kombuchas for his roommates. This way, the pizza parlor crew will see he's not just a dollar slice guy, but someone capable of committing to an entire pie and a vinegar and bile-based beverage. It'll show personal growth. Just have fun. Just relax. Be yourself. Yeah, have fun. Enjoy it. Joey swings open the door and rollerblades inside. Remember the rollerblading? This whole time, Joey's been wheels down, wearing his blades. You might want to rewind a few minutes and re-listen with that image in your mind. And it's not just the rollerblades.
32:52Joey is also wearing a wire. So standing outside, Gregor and I can eavesdrop on how things are going inside the parlor. Do you want to hear? I can't stand here. While Gregor paces back and forth on the sidewalk, I cup an earphone and listen as Joey rolls up to the counter. Hey, how's it going? Fine, you? Joey is greeted by a pizza chef. Yeah, I don't know if you remember me. I used to come here all the time. I was kicked out of your shop a couple months back for stealing slices. I was accused of stealing slices. I totally know why you thought it was me, because it looked like it. I mean, I came in.
33:32Gregor and I watch nervously through the storefront window. Oh, he's blowing. I'm rushed to his aid. Joey isn't mounting a defense, and he isn't offering a counter-narrative. Instead, he's exhibiting a level of mealy-mouthery not seen since a young Jonathan Goldstein tried to explain to a trolley conductor why he was hiding in a bush. And I was kind of hoping I could come back just because I love that. But as Gregor and I bicker over whether to walk inside and roll Joey out the door like a dessert trolley full of flaming horse manure, we notice something. I know it's weird that's been so long, but I just felt really bad.
34:09I was really embarrassed. Really? I'm sorry. Oh, she's being really nice. You saw someone come in with roller skates? Yeah. I remember that day. I was working that day. Not only does she remember that day, but she also remembers Joey. There was a guy who came in several times. Yeah. No, I see. I think that was me. kind of remembers Joey. I came in. I'm a vegetarian. I saw that you guys only had pepperoni slices. So I was like, oh, not for me, and I just turned around. Totally looked like I just grabbed one and... Since you didn't do it, you know, you don't have anything to apologize for. Yeah, I just want to make sure you guys don't think I did it.
34:41Okay, yeah. Okay. Okay, cool, yeah. If he was willing to come back to face his accusers, she says, he probably didn't steal the pizza. And with that, Joey orders his pies and kombuchas. With our faces pressed against the window, Gregor and I watch with amazement as Joey waits for his order while engaging in some completely unscripted repartee. Cool song, he says. Totally, she says. This band is so cool, he says. Yeah, she says. We didn't prepare Joey for any of this, But here he was, riffing and scatting away like some kind of improvisational jazz cat. Carmine would have been proud. Thank you very much.
35:33And, tingle, tingle, Joey emerges from the restaurant, holding our pizzas aloft, like trophies. Joey! Oh, you did it! Oh my God, I'm shaking, I'm shaking. You did a great job! Despite his fear of saying the wrong thing, Joey had managed to put himself out there and stumble his way through. Joey, that was great. And you did it by yourself. You didn't have to go in or anything. That's awesome. I really was nervous. I felt my leg completely shaking. I thought she was going to look down and just see my leg shaking like a dog. Okay, one to ten, how do you feel? Did you wrestle the bear? Because I know I still have to go to the loft.
36:16The relief hasn't come. but...
36:22After the break, Joey tries rolling up a much harder hill, apologizing to people he actually knows. Those people you live with, they actually know the real Joey. Maybe they didn't like the real Joey, but they knew who you were. No, I don't think they did. I mean, I hope they did it.
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40:48But as we stand on the street in front of the building, our kombucha bubbling and vegetarian pizzas congealing, Joey checks and rechecks his phone. Not a single one of his former roommates has responded. Not even, like, any response is not a good sign. But maybe that's better than, like, responding by saying, I'm not interested, right? The loft is on the second floor behind a metal gate, and there's no doorbell. All right, let's figure out how to get into this fortress. There's no drainpipe to shimmy, no fire escape banister to reverse Ollie. All we can do is wait for someone to come in or out.
41:24Gregor fills the time with yet another aviation story. When I was going through the TSA, the lady was like, could you pull your pants up a little bit? You just told me to take my belt off. Now my pants are falling down. You want me to pull my pants up? Which is it? You really get told to pull your pants up? I get told that every time I go through the TSA. Who wears a belt with a pair of shorts? Me. You wear a belt and shorts. Yep. I never heard of that. How do you think I keep him up? I think someone's coming. Thankfully, we're interrupted. I think we're totally right. Yo, how's it going? One of Joey's old roommates emerges.
41:57He's a hip young man who, if not wearing a straw pork pie hat and carrying a gondola paddle, is certainly giving off that vibe, a Venetian boatman vibe. Joey, foregoing all social foreplay, dives right in. Yeah, I'm here because I want to apologize. I don't know if you got the group text. Oh, no. Yeah, I just wanted, I felt really bad about how I left things here, so I brought some pizza and my friends here. Okay. Joey gestures over to his friends, two balding middle-aged men slumping behind him like bald scarecrows stuffed with muesli. Hey. Hi. Okay. All right. Well, this is really awkward and a surprise.
42:40Right. I was just going out of my car. Okay. The boatman isn't very receptive, but Joey persists. Is anyone else home if you want to, like, ask if they are okay with me coming up? You're right back. Okay, thank you so much. Don't worry. It's taken all of Joey's courage to return to the place where the coolest art kids in L.A. live, and he's still being denied entry. As Joey stares in silence at the steel door that's just clanged shut in his mustachioed face, I struggle to come up with something positive to say. I think you handled yourself well. I'm extremely nervous right now. I don't feel good about how this is going.
43:24Upstairs, the gondolier is saying to his roommate something along the lines of, Hey, remember that silent roller skating weirdo we kicked out of our art loft? Well, he's downstairs. With pizza. And his two gay dads. But then... Yo. Hey, what's up? Hi. How you doing? Hi, I'm Zach. Hi, Zach. Nice to meet you. I'm John. Zach is the unofficial head of the household. The guy who takes care of all the square, normie stuff, like throwing out expired cottage cheese and paying the rent on time. He's bearded and shaggy. He turns to Joey. Joey stares down at his rollerblades and starts mumbling explanations.
44:08Yeah, I just thought, I mean, I didn't think it was just like, I just thought, like... I haven't heard this much mealy-mouthing since, I guess, an hour ago when Joey was at the pizza parlor. Zach looks at Joey skeptically. His arms are crossed. Nonetheless, Joey soldiers on. I just feel really bad about kind of how I left things here. Yeah, I know that I wasn't the best roommate, and I feel really bad and just kind of uncomfortable about, like, just, you know, even just how you guys think about me. But I just wanted to apologize and make things right. Um, there were things, like, that bugged me.
44:49Here we go. Whereas the pizza chef had been impressed with the mere fact Joey had returned, for Zach, that wasn't enough. Um, you had your headphones on a lot, and you had noise-canceling headphones. He launches into a laundry list of grievances.
45:09Joey ignored everybody. Never cleaned up after himself. Never even washed a dish.
45:19The worst thing Joey could imagine was happening. He was being seen. And told that he'd always been seen. He put all his effort into trying to become invisible. and absolutely no effort into doing his share of the chores. That's why his roommates wanted him out. They'd seen him visibly not cleaning the loft, visibly not taking out the garbage, trying to hide, but not really hiding at all. Taking advantage of. And that's what I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. If ordering a pizza had given Joey the Jimmy legs, Facing Zach was giving Joey the Joey leg, a name I've just coined for a condition in which one's entire body becomes one single jimmy leg.
46:02That is, a Joey leg that won't stop jimmying. He's like a liberty, you know? But while Joey is jimmying, he isn't folding. He's not running away. But it was just the way that it was done. Yeah. As Zach finishes speaking, Joey maintains eye contact. And what's more, as the L.A. breeze whips up the hindquarters of his mullet, he does not fall prey to his lifelong crutch. Silence. Without notes, without wittyish rejoinders, he responds. All this stuff, like the not paying rent on time and just all the chores stuff, all that stems from this shyness, this, like, the weirdness, and, like, just feeling uncomfortable to, like, I don't know, be in the public space, kind of, just because I'm weird and shy, and I can't blame it on anything but myself.
46:53I mean, it's all me. It's, like, my own thing. Zach looks at Joey, sees him struggling, and his face softens. I understand, like, having social anxiety Having, like, issues where you're, like You feel something that's, like, strangling you in a position Where you have to converse or whatever Like, I can understand that Yeah, like, I only wanted to just be friends with you guys I appreciate it Where are you staying now? Awkwardness is just a step along the way to vulnerability And being vulnerable, allowing yourself to be seen is the only soil from which friendship can grow. I love your funky style.
47:36And what better fertilizer than a mutual love of the mullet? I've been contemplating a similar mullet as yours, but I don't know if my hair would work as much as yours. You have a different volume. As Zach and Joey wax on about the beauty of Joey's ape drape, another loft mate appears in the stairway. Nice to meet you. Hi, I'm there. You guys want to come up? Sure. Yeah, if that's okay. That's great. Thank you.
48:09Holy cow, this is a really big space. It's looking good. Joey leads Gregor and I on a tour, through the old audio cassettes and dummy heads, past the kickboxing bag and vinyl collection, and ends the tour in a truly MTV Cribs kind of way. This was my old spot. at his old bedroom, where the magic happened. And by magic, I mean where Joey slept on the floor, wrapped in unwashed blankets. This is where he used to stay. Did you have a mattress?
48:48Joey breaks out the pizza and kombucha, and we all gather by the hot plate for a toast. You're supposed to actually look up, look at each other's eyes. All right. Thank you. Cheers. Appreciate it. L 'chaim, L 'chaim. Cheers. To communication. Yeah.
49:05God, that stuff's terrible. Wow. The aftertaste gets you home. After we choke back our kombucha, I suggest a symbolic gesture. Hey, you want to wash all the glasses? Yeah, I do. I do. Oh, my God. This is totally ridiculous. I felt like... You're going to use soap and everything. Soap, too. Soap.
49:31Just as we're about to leave, Gregor decides he'd like to use the bathroom. And whereas a couple of shrinky and sneaky violets like Joey and me might just slink off looking for it, Gregor does not. Might it be too much of an imposition if I was to leave a little urine in your toilet on the way out? By embracing the awkwardness of life, acknowledging that we are creatures who require toilets, Gregor somehow makes things less awkward, at least for himself.
50:05Gregor has mastered something that Joey is still learning, the art of saying, here I am, even when peeing into a toilet, while wearing a lapel microphone.
50:29You're welcome. Come back. Thank you. I'll be back. Take it easy. Thanks, Eric. See you guys later. Adios. After leaving the loft, there's only one thing left to redo. Hello? Yeah. Joey phones up his twin sister, Elise. And this time, he isn't crying. It was so good. It was so cool. Yeah, I think he genuinely forgave me. And I did it all on my lonesome. No, you didn't. You needed so much help. Okay. Well, after I got the help, I did it on myself. You know, I mean, but now I just feel like I can do it by myself. I am really proud of you, though. I know that it takes a lot. It did. It takes a lot for me.
51:16Yeah, you know more than anyone. Your proudness feels good. I'm not surprised that Elise is proud, But I'm taken aback to see that Gregor looks proud too. Proud of himself, of course, but also of Joey. So once Joey gets off the phone, Gregor offers up some fatherly advice. I understand what it is to be young. It's a tough phase. Until you're about 45, life is really difficult. Okay. And then from there on in, it's all just sitting in one of those soapbox derby cars rolling down the hill to your senescence and eventual death. Gregor, you're depressing the guy. I'm coming to my hallmark inspirational line.
51:53I'd say it's a tough 15 to 25-year period. It's very unpleasant, really, most of it. Could you repeat that Hallmark line again?
52:07And with that, Joey pulls off his unlikeliest feet yet. He gets in a genuine, off-the-cuff zinger. Gregor and I had brought this big bird down. A big group hug. Come on, Gregor. Woo, tang. Woo, tang. There we go. It's touching me. It's so touching me.
52:53Last month's rant is scheming with the damaged deposit. Take this moment to decide. If we meant it, if we tried. We felt around for far too much. From things that accidentally touch. Hello. Joey. Hey. Oh, wait. Here comes our surprise guest. You ready for it? Who could it be? Who could it be? Here it comes. Hey.
53:31Gregory, you look very moisturized. Do you have an HR policy where you're not supposed to comment on people's physical appearance? Because I think Johnny skipped that day when he was getting onboarded. Well, I mean, that's a compliment, don't you think? Yes, young lady. You look great in that dress. You really fill it out well. That's a compliment, too. I mean, come on, Johnny. Last time I left, you had a mullet and were rollerblading and eating a slice of pizza and had like 11 roommates. Not too much has changed. Some things have improved. Can I see the back of your head? Still mullety. And you've still got a mustache?
54:05I do. It's grown in. That's what seven years will do. Wow. Look at that. You've grown up just in the blink of an eye. Exactly. So we just wanted to check in with you and see how you were doing. I want to hear about how now, like, you were sort of pushed out of the nest, that instead of falling to the sidewalk and getting eaten by a cat, you have taken off to soar with the seagulls.
54:31Bernie and Ethel Seagull. All right, listen, we're getting off track here. Joey, we're here to hear about you. I was enjoying this. What's going on in your life? You're in L.A.? I actually, I'm in New York. I moved out here about four years ago. How many roommates do you have? This will shock you. Zero. So no bedsheet walls? Just all you? I do live in like a large studio apartment, railroad style, where there's like multiple rooms without proper doors. So they are separated by what kind of looks like a bedsheet. It's like a curtain. I don't know if you can tell in the back. Was that something that you were looking for?
55:09You told the real estate agent that you wanted something with bedsheets? Yeah, I don't feel at home unless I'm around bedsheets. Joey's doing, Joey's thriving. Look, he's got a couch. Is that a couch you're sitting on? It's a chair. I don't have a couch. Oh. Are you still rollerblading? Of course. I still love rollerblading, but I also, I found that I love riding a bicycle too. I have a question. Oh, go ahead, Gregor. It's not too personal. Are you drinking your own urine? All right, so good talk. Joey, anything you'd like to say in parting? I guess I want to say thank you for helping me all those years ago.
55:49It actually, I do think, meant something. It worked. Did it really? I think it did. How so? I felt a lot more confident after that. Just, yeah, I mean, the lessons imparted on the day, but also just hearing it back over the years. I've revisited it, and whenever I do, it makes me laugh first, but also kind of shows me how far I've come, so I'm grateful. This may come across as slightly patronizing But I feel like Joey's all grown up I think I am I think you're right Okay, let's close this out by all together Ready? Woo-tang Woo-tang Woo-tang
56:45Thanks to everyone who helped put this episode together. We'll be back next week with another Encore presentation of Heavyweight.
57:24One last thing before you go. You know that feeling when feedback, notes, and data are coming in from every direction? ChatGPT work can make sense of it all, turning scattered inputs into ready-to-review work. With your permission, work in ChatGPT can gather context from apps and files, summarize incoming messages, rebuild decks, and help finalize high-quality documents for your team or clients. Stay in control as you move from a goal to polished work faster with ChatGPT work. Download the ChatGPT desktop app today and take on your most ambitious work. Let's talk about something everyone has an opinion on, healthcare.
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From the publisher
This week, we check back in with Joey to answer everyone’s burning question: does he still have a mullet?
Years ago, Joey had a very bad day — all due to awkward misunderstandings. Jonathan and Gregor get involved to help him set things right.
Credits
This episode was produced by Jonathan Goldstein, Kalila Holt, Peter Bresnan, and Stevie Lane, with editing by Jorge Just and Alex Blumberg. Special thanks to Emily Condon, Flora Lichtman, PJ Vogt, Saidu Tejan-Thomas, Grace Hawkins, and Jackie Cohen. The show was mixed by Bobby Lord. Music by Christine Fellows, John K Samson, Blue Dot Sessions, Bobby Lord, and Y La Bamba. Our theme song is by The Weakerthans courtesy of Epitaph Records.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
