2026 Update: Tony

5:12Hello? Hello?

5:16Jonathan Goldstein:How nice of you to take the call from yourself.

5:18Tony:Oh, hey, Jackie. You seem surprised that you called me. So nice to hear from you. I didn't call you. I didn't realize that I had you on my calendar. But this is great. How are you doing? It's been so busy. It's nice to, like, decompress and have a normal conversation. How's it going?

5:40Tony:From Gimlet Media, I'm Jonathan Goldstein, and this is Heavyweight. Today's episode, Tony.

5:58Paul, how are you?

6:00Jonathan Goldstein:Very good, thanks. I was wondering if you would be up for meeting me for an hour. Okay, what about? I was absent for most of your life, and, you know, I've always felt bad about it.

6:15Tony:Here's something you don't hear every day. A godfather awkwardly asking out his 31-year-old godson on a god date.

6:23Jonathan Goldstein:I know you're busy. I know you're a busy-ass life now, father of who, but if you can spare an hour, like, Monday or Tuesday night, you know, I'll bring...

6:33Tony:Unfortunately, a week in advance, I don't know what the hell's going on. The godfather being blown off is my friend Tony. The realization that he needed to be a better godfather came suddenly. It was like if Vito Corleone woke up one morning and thought, you know, godfathering should be more than just decapitating horses, and then picked up a rotary phone and asked Johnny Fontaine out on an ice cream date. But to explain how Tony got to this point, let's go back to the beginning. It all started when Tony and I were catching up.

7:06Jonathan Goldstein:And regarding work, how is that going? Good. It's really great. I'm actually enjoying the process of making this film, which is, I think, the really amazing thing about the past year.

7:21Tony:This past year has been a hard one for Tony. He's recently divorced and still adjusting. The house that has been settled.

7:29Jonathan Goldstein:Yeah, everything is settled. Everything is settled. Yeah. Yeah.

7:34Tony:Yeah. Yeah. I first met Tony in college when he was a young film student with manic energy, jean-shallot curly black hair, and gray clothes that always smelt of Greek food. After college, we became roommates, and on the weekend, his mother would visit. She referred to me as Gatzo Melismano Evriyaki, which I think translates loosely as the alley cat-haired little Jew. But I didn't mind, because whenever she showed up, She brought homemade spinacopita and terra musalata. Tony would wash down these Grecian delights with copious amounts of booze. Pretty soon, he started washing everything down with booze.

8:19Tony:There's an image from that time that stuck with me. Tony had decided to join me at the gym after downing a half bottle of vodka. I remember him wailing on the heavy bag in his undershirt and gray jeans, looking a little like a kid pounding on the floor, fed up with everything. Eventually, Tony turned to harder drugs, like heroin. And soon after that, we stopped being roommates.

8:45Tony:Tony went to rehab, and after he got out, spent some years putting his life back together. He had a few relationships, and then he met Natalie. Natalie was smart and loved to write, and when Tony hugged her, she disappeared into his body. Tony's a big guy with a thick black beard covering his boyish face, and Natalie was apple-cheeked and glamorous. I liked being around them. One time, while walking by a curiosity shop, I saw a comically small ping-pong table in the window. Immediately, I thought of Tony and Natalie. I imagined the two of them in their kitchen smacking the little ball back and forth together and laughing.

9:24Tony:During their wedding vows, Natalie said, I vow to grow old with you, but most of all, to grow young with you. And Tony interrupted her, right in the middle, eyes welling up, to say, Me too. It was like he'd blown his youth, but was getting another chance. But then, at some point around three years in, things started to get tougher. Tony spent a lot of time locked in his studio, working obsessively on his movies, and Natalie started to feel hamstrung by Montreal. Its smallness, the lack of opportunities. They wanted a baby, but were having a hard time with it. And then, Tony's dad died, making him the sole caretaker of his mother, a woman who didn't shy away from espousing strong opinions about her son's personal life.

10:10Tony:All of this was hard on him and Natalie. She was not happy. She was not happy. She was not happy. She just didn't want to be here. Natalie wanted to start a new life in a new place, but Tony felt happily stuck in the old one, and he couldn't leave his mother all alone. So when Natalie decided to leave town, he knew he couldn't go with her. Was there ever a conversation in which you were both trying to envision a way in which you could leave the city? No, because there was no way. Like even with your mother to go with you?

10:44Tony:Why is that? No. Tony's mother is an 84-year-old Greek woman with little English whose only hobbies are meticulously cleaning her toaster oven and wringing her hands while frowning. And so in here lies the heart of Tony's current problem. Before they separated, Tony and Natalie were trying to have a baby. And now he finds himself alone, middle-aged, and worried he's missed his last chance to have a kid.

11:11Jonathan Goldstein:I don't think there's a point to anything if you don't have a relationship with a young person. How do you mean? If I sit here in the dark thinking about it and realizing I'm 46 years old and I live alone and I'm probably not going to have kids and who the fuck gives a shit if I live or die, aside from my mother and a few friends, but really who gives a shit? Who's going to feel a loss? I'm not saying that in an egotistical way, but who do I mean something to? Whose life have I enriched? I don't understand what there is to do here if you're not somehow helping or being connected to a younger person.

12:01Tony:Lately, Tony's been thinking about three young people he had been connected to, his estranged godchildren. Tony admits to screwing up those three relationships during three difficult chapters in his life, drug addiction, rehab, and divorce. What if you were to try to get them back in your life?

12:22Jonathan Goldstein:I'm not sure what difference I can make in somebody's... It's kind of like, hey, here I am. Now I'm ready for you. Like, I haven't been here all these years, but hey, here I am now, you know?

12:33Tony:Hearing my friend give up on himself so easily, I decide to suggest something bold. Why not try reaching out to the God Kids he lost now? I mean, I actually do want to have a relationship. I do. You don't know until you at least try, right? I'm open to anything. Do you have their phone numbers? I get them to tell me about them, beginning with the first. Paul.

13:04Jonathan Goldstein:I was 16 years old. It was very formal. I held this kid in a Greek Orthodox baptism ceremony for an hour. My arm almost fell off. Babies are really heavy, especially when you have one arm to hold onto them and you have a candle in the other. Yeah. But it was cute, you know. I was really young and I was close to their family. But I was 16. Within like two years, I was a raving lunatic alcoholic drug addict.

13:34Jonathan Goldstein:I didn't see much of him or anybody at all from the family for quite a few years, and I didn't think about him much. That's for sure.

13:44Tony:And this God kid, what's his name?

13:47Jonathan Goldstein:His name is Paul.

13:48Tony:And Paul would be about 30 years old now?

13:51Jonathan Goldstein:Yeah, he's 31. And here's the thing. I've never actually talked to him about how he felt having an absentee godfather. but he beat me at an arm wrestle and I think he really enjoyed that.

14:04Tony:And when you say enjoyed that, he enjoyed hanging out and spending time with you or he enjoyed beating you? Enjoyed beating me. For being such a crappy godfather? That's what I'm saying, yeah. Is there a particular question that you would want to pose to him or to all of them?

14:23Jonathan Goldstein:Do you hate me? Like, does it mean anything that I'm somebody's godfather because I said so or somebody said so or we did something a long time ago. It can mean nothing or it can mean something. You know, Godfather is a big fucking deal if you think about it. It has a spiritual implication, God, right? It's not toilet father.

14:53Tony:And so with my encouragement, Tony picked up the phone and reached out to Paul, Which brings us back to the phone call you heard earlier.

15:29Tony:On Saturday, Tony called. With no response, he reached out again. And again. Eventually, he gave up. Tony and Paul never got together.

15:47Jonathan Goldstein:This episode is brought to you by Spreaker, the platform responsible for a rapidly spreading condition known as podcast brain. Symptoms include buying microphones you don't need, explaining RSS feeds to confused relatives, and saying things like, sorry, I can't talk right now, I'm editing audio. If this sounds familiar, you're probably already a podcaster. The good news is Spreaker makes the whole process simple. You record your show, upload it once, and Spreaker distributes it everywhere people listen. Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and about a dozen apps your cousin swears are the next big thing. Even better, Spreaker helps you monetize your show with ads, meaning your podcast might someday pay for, well, more microphones.

16:27Jonathan Goldstein:Start your show today at Spreaker.com. Spreaker, because if you're going to talk to yourself for an hour, you might as well publish it.

16:35Tony:Hey, everyone. When Heavyweight returned last year, we were so encouraged by the heartfelt messages from you, our dear listeners. I can safely say that without you, Heavyweight wouldn't exist today. So, thank you. and if you want to take your valuable support to an even higher invaluable level consider signing up for pushkin plus it makes us look good to our bosses and you'll get to listen to heavyweight ad free because you'll be the sponsor plus and this is what really puts the plus in pushkin plus you'll also get bonus material if you want to get 25 off an annual pushkin plus subscription head to pushkin.fm slash plus and use the code HEAVY25.

17:20Tony:Thanks for your support. Tony and I reconvened, and I tried to bolster his spirits. Maybe things would go better with Godchild II, Zoe.

17:31Jonathan Goldstein:She is the daughter of a rehab buddy who was actually also a drug dealer here in Montreal when I was dealing in Montreal. And we met in rehab in Ottawa. And he asked me, do you want to be her godfather? I said, sure. I said, are you guys going to baptize her? They said, no, be her godfather. OK, great. And so it was just like that. That was easy. Yeah. But it was meaningful. I was happy to do whatever was going to be required of me. And I did see the kid when she was young. And then I moved to Montreal. all. And so she basically grew up without me.

18:12Tony:In the intervening years, Tony's only seen Zoe a couple times. When she comes to town, she doesn't bother looking him up. Because I remember how I

18:20Jonathan Goldstein:used to see people that were like, never mind 40s. Yeah. Like people in their 30s were crusty, you know, yellow toenailed, you know, old people. And occasionally, you know, I get like, she'll like something on my Facebook page, and I'll be like, ooh.

18:39Tony:But Tony wants more than that. Since Zoe still lives in Ottawa, just a two-hour drive away, I suggest he go visit her. Maybe it isn't too late. But after his failed attempt with Paul, he isn't sure she'll even want to see him. So I offered a road trip down with him for emotional support. Oh my God, we're 20-year-old. You know, the whole purpose of this thing is for you not to be a deadbeat god, Dad. I know I feel really bad. It's my fault. It's Zoe's last week of high school, and Tony's arranged to pick her up after her day of finals.

19:10Jonathan Goldstein:You don't mind driving a little fast, do you? Don't go snail-paced grandma style.

19:15Tony:That's my style. Grandma style. No, don't do that. When we get to the school, Zoe's waiting outside. All right. Here we go.

19:22Jonathan Goldstein:You feeling good?

19:23Tony:I'm feeling good.

19:24Jonathan Goldstein:There we go. Here we go. Here we go. Hello. Hello. How are you?

19:31Tony:Zoe is 18. She's wearing a yin and yang choker around her neck and a pink scrunchie in her hair.

19:37Jonathan Goldstein:So how's everything? How are you? Really good. Almost done high school. Yeah. The final frontier. So let's go to the park. Okay.

19:50Tony:Would you like some candy, Zoe? As Tony's emotional support system, I thought it might be helpful to bring refreshments. We drive along chewing in silence.

20:07Tony:And then, Tony decides to break the ice. I have a really great, disgusting story to tell you.

20:12Jonathan Goldstein:Oh. Well, can you contextualize what disgusting means? Oh, my God. I'm only thinking about it because it happened right around here. Oh, no, I don't like where this is going. A friend of mine has been collecting his vomit for the past 20 years in a gigantic tin, like a gigantic metal drum in the basement.

20:32Tony:Oh, my God. What the heck? I wasn't expecting that. Me neither.

20:40Jonathan Goldstein:That's so terrible. Why would you bring something like that up right now? Because it happened right around here. So, like, how did you find out about that?

20:49Tony:So many questions. And, fun fact, the vomit house is on Ralph Street. Google map it. It's right there next to Brown's Inlet, the park we're on our way to.

21:10Jonathan Goldstein:I've only been to this park once before, and that was a weird day. Explain. I started dating this guy, and the first time we ever hung out outside of school was in this park. We were on those swings, and I just remember being like, wow, this is really weird. Like, this is a date. So I guess that was like my first date.

21:30Tony:We find a picnic table beside the playground, where young mothers are playing with their babies. Tony and Zoe sit side by side, she fiddling with a strand of hair, and he staring at the table, sweeping pebbles of sand back and forth. The two of them catch up. It turns out Zoe's taking improv classes, and Tony's taking improv classes too. Oh, I'd love to see that. I'd love to see that. You'd like my troupe. I think you'd like those guys a lot. Being both a friend who wants to encourage bonding, as well as a lover of show business, I ask if they might improvise a scene or two. This is my favorite bench.

22:07Tony:It's funny because it's also my favorite bench and I've actually never seen you sitting here. But instead of the comedic romp I'd hoped for, I get a sluggish five-minute piece of Samuel Bicchetti in theater. So I guess what I'm saying is you'll either have to move to the bench that's beside mine or beside his. And scene. I thought like improv was supposed to be like funny.

22:27Jonathan Goldstein:Well, because usually it's energy and you're on stage and you're doing stupid shit and people are laughing. You're not laughing.

22:33Tony:And in my heart, it feels like Christmas morning on Ralph Street as Tony and Zoe begin to bond.

22:40Jonathan Goldstein:Yeah, you look really solid. Yeah, you're just like, so I'm playing for my audience. Like, look at the tune.

22:51Tony:They're having fun, but Tony's still thinking about godfatherhood. Tentatively, he brings it up.

22:58Jonathan Goldstein:I, because a godfather, traditionally, a godfather is supposed to provide spiritual instruction. And I wasn't there when you were really young. When you were told when you were young, this is Tony, he's your godfather. Do you remember that? I always knew that you had this connection to my parents that was really valuable. So by extension, you'd be valuable to me. even though I didn't know you that well. Yeah. What can I offer you at this point, from this point onward, in a formal fashion? I don't know what you hope for me to provide for you. To provide for me? Yeah. Oh, I mean, it's a two-way street.

23:41Jonathan Goldstein:I mean, I can't just, like, take so much and not give anything to you. Well, that's the point. The point, you know, that's the point, is that I'm here for you.

23:53Tony:That is the point. with a god child, not so much with a god adult. The children's book is called The Giving Tree, not The Giving and Taking Tree. Children aren't self-conscious. They don't find it weird to take without giving anything in return. But adults do. I'm beginning to feel like pushing Tony to reconnect with his godchildren might have been foolhardy. Tony can't just insert himself into a past he missed out on. And as for the future, Zoe's getting ready to go off to college. She's at the point in life when actual parents see less and less of their kids, never mind godparents.

24:31Jonathan Goldstein:She was a little bit country and he was a little bit rock and roll. That was their song.

24:34Tony:I'm a little bit country.

24:36Jonathan Goldstein:No, let's do the reverse. I'm a little bit...

24:39Tony:As Tony sings both parts of Adani and Marie duet, Zoe watches him with a big smile on her face. It's clear they really enjoy each other, and the afternoon goes well. But as far as the god-parental relationship Tony wants, It feels like it just might be too late.

24:56Jonathan Goldstein:I'm really impressed. I think you've got a pretty fucking firm hold on things. Well, I mean, if you're ever in dire need for, like, a caregiver when you're old and can't go to the bathroom or something, like, I could help you.

25:15Tony:Only one godchild to go. Will Tony be a godfather or a toilet father? Is the cat still in the cradle? And if so, will he scratch Tony's eyes out when roused from his godfatherless slumber? We'll find out after these important messages from our sponsors.

25:40Jonathan Goldstein:This episode is brought to you by Spreaker, the platform responsible for a rapidly spreading condition known as podcast brain. Symptoms include buying microphones you don't need, explaining RSS feeds to confused relatives, and saying things like, sorry, I can't talk right now, I'm editing audio. If this sounds familiar, you're probably already a podcaster. The good news is Spreaker makes the whole process simple. You record your show, upload it once, and Spreaker distributes it everywhere people listen. Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and about a dozen apps your cousin swears are the next big thing. Even better, Spreaker helps you monetize your show with ads, meaning your podcast might someday pay for, well, more microphones.

26:21Jonathan Goldstein:Start your show today at Spreaker.com. Spreaker, because if you're going to talk to yourself for an hour, you might as well publish it.

26:29Tony:Hey, everyone. When Heavyweight returned last year, we were so encouraged by the heartfelt messages from you, our dear listeners. I can safely say that without you, Heavyweight wouldn't exist today. So, thank you. And if you want to take your valuable support to an even higher, invaluable level, consider signing up for Pushkin Plus. It makes us look good to our bosses and you'll get to listen to Heavyweight ad-free because you'll be the sponsor. Plus, and this is what really puts the plus in Pushkin Plus, you'll also get bonus material. If you want to get 25 % off an annual Pushkin Plus subscription, head to pushkin.fm slash plus and use the code HEAVY25.

27:13Tony:Thanks for your support. Tony's first godchild, Paul, didn't have the time for a relationship. And his second godchild, Zoe, had outgrown the whole godfather-goddaughter thing. That left him one last chance. Nine-year-old Nicholas, godchild the third.

27:33Jonathan Goldstein:Nicholas, godchild number three is Nicholas, the son of my cousin.

27:37Tony:This one is especially challenging for Tony. Because unlike with Paul and Zoe, Tony's not the only godparent in the picture. Tony's ex-wife, Natalie, was warm and likable. When they started dating, she helped him reconnect with his family. So much so, that when Nicholas was born, his mom, a cousin Tony wasn't even especially close to, asked them both to be his godparents. Tony and Natalie were together at Nicholas' baptism.

28:02Jonathan Goldstein:I was holding him, and he was really upset until I took him, and he was quiet the whole time. and everybody was kind of spooked by the fact that he was suddenly so quiet when i was holding him so there was this whole kind of energy around like oh why is this power tony has over nicholas or why is he so quiet and everybody seemed to make a kind of a strange impression on people and it felt good to sort of be i guess for whatever reason and nothing to do with me somehow this kid felt soothed or calmed by me. And we baptized the kid. We had a big party. And then we started, we were there every year, like three, four times a year, which is pretty good.

28:50Jonathan Goldstein:But it was all good. But it was all about being with Natalie.

28:57Tony:Natalie was the initiator. She's the one who planned the godparent stuff, like trips with Nicholas to the movies in the museum. Nicholas loved Natalie and related to her and Tony as a unit. So when that unit split up, Tony couldn't bring himself to keep visiting Nicholas and his mom. It reminded him too much of Natalie. I didn't feel like seeing them.

29:18Jonathan Goldstein:I didn't feel like going to her house, because I always went there with Natalie.

29:23Tony:But Nicholas's mother continued to reach out. Nicholas really misses you, she'd write. Eventually, she suggested they all get together on neutral ground, her sister's house. So we did.

29:35Jonathan Goldstein:We set up a surprise dinner, which was about two months ago. And I went over, and they were really happy to see me. But at the same time, I noticed Nicholas's first reaction. He was kind of shocked, and I could see that all this stuff went through his eyes. and then he put on this kind of smiley, happy guy thing. I could read it all in his face right away.

30:02Tony:And you think that was because Natalie wasn't there? Yeah, yeah. Tony's afraid that Nicholas won't want a relationship with him that doesn't include Natalie, afraid that maybe he's not the godparent that Nicholas wants, but he also doesn't want to repeat the same mistakes. So he screws up his courage and goes back over for dinner, hoping he and Nicholas can connect again. But before Tony gets a chance to sit down, the very first words out of Nicholas's mouth...

30:31Jonathan Goldstein:So Tony, how's Natalie? Natalie, um, she's okay. If you just could get back with her, that would be a relief. Why would that be a relief, buddy? Well, I want to see her again, and I never get to see her. Yeah. That's true. I only see you And that's not enough

31:03Jonathan Goldstein:You will see her again And she says hi Because she's in Australia Actually she's in New Zealand

31:10Tony:You don't want to be in the places she is, right?

31:13Jonathan Goldstein:Well, I don't want to be in New Zealand Because it's far away from everything that I do My mother is here My mother is an old lady She's 85 years old and she needs me She can't live alone so I can't go anywhere. So it's not only he doesn't want to be here. It's over for you. It's over for you, old sausage.

31:36Jonathan Goldstein:It looks like that. But you never know. I'm not in love with anybody else.

31:45Tony:They sit down on the couch and Tony faces the thing that's hardest for him to talk about. Even with adults, let alone a child.

31:52Jonathan Goldstein:So are you going to be sad if you don't see her again?

31:55Tony:A bit.

31:57Jonathan Goldstein:A bit.

31:57Tony:Okay, just kidding, a lot.

32:02Is there anything that you want to ask me

32:05Jonathan Goldstein:about Natalie or anything?

32:10Jonathan Goldstein:Did you feel like a part of your heart broke up to pieces? Yeah. You did? Yeah. Very much. A lot.

32:25Tony:Do you miss her a lot? Yeah, I do. Well, you should have said this. Come back whenever you... You can come back whenever you want. Or just say... Or just say sorry or something. Yeah. I did. Okay.

32:50Jonathan Goldstein:I said sorry, and so did she. She had things to be sorry about, too. And then I said come back. For a long time, I said come back whenever you want. And I think she's decided not to. I think she's decided.

33:08Tony:Maybe it's because Post Canada takes a long time to get a note. Really long.

33:14Jonathan Goldstein:No, but I write her on the Internet.

33:16Tony:Oh, Internet? Yeah. Oh, that makes more sense. I thought you brought some post-cannon. Tony's putting away his own feelings and focusing on Nicholas's, which is a very godfatherly thing to do. And Nicholas, for his part, seems to be straining on his emotional tiptoes to try to reach Tony. And together, they meet somewhere in the middle.

33:39Jonathan Goldstein:Do you remember when I baptized you, right?

33:42Tony:Yeah.

33:43Jonathan Goldstein:And you were crying. You were really upset. I had to pick you up. when I picked you up, you went totally quiet. And everybody was like, you're so quiet. And everybody said, you made him calm. And I thought, that's cool. Maybe that's what godfathers are supposed to do. They're supposed to make people calm and be like, everything's okay. Don't worry about it, you know. But let me ask you something. Yeah. What kind of godfather do you want me to be? I wanted you to be the same thing as you are right now. Which is what? You're a really good godfather. I am?

34:26Tony:Yeah. You're pretty good.

34:29Jonathan Goldstein:Thanks, man. I appreciate that. That's very nice of you to say.

34:33Tony:It's not a joke. You're really good. I'm good. You're a godfather.

34:36Jonathan Goldstein:Thank you. That's awesome. Cool, man.

34:48And with that, Tony was a godfather.

34:51Tony:Because when your godchild tells you you're a godfather, you're a godfather.

35:07Tony:When I talked to Tony a couple weeks later, he'd already seen Nicholas again. They went to visit Tony's mom. He says she liked having a kid around, to wait on, to serve Spenakopita.

35:21Jonathan Goldstein:She's laughing in her heart. This is the best day that I ever had. And it's only just begun.

35:57Jonathan Goldstein:Now that the furniture's returning to its goodwill home Now that the last month's rent is scheming with the damaged deposit Take this moment to decide If we meant it, if we tried Or felt around for far too much For things that accidentally tried Recording. Heavyweight update.

36:38Jonathan Goldstein:Jonathan Goldstein, FaceTime Video. Hey, let me just show you what's happening here. So it's recording on the MacBook mic. You're getting the MacBook mic. You're getting the iPhone like six inches from my mouth. You know what you're doing. You know what Jackie Cohen would say, huh? Fuck you.

36:59Tony:What would she say? She would be like, look at you. You think you need three microphones. What you have to say is so important. Oh, because everyone wants to hear what you have to say. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, Zoe says hi, by the way.

37:10Jonathan Goldstein:Oh. I want him to say hi to you. That's so nice. I told her I'd be talking to you. And how is Zoe? Great. I mean, she's, you know, she's 28 now. Oh, my. Okay. And she's been dating a nice Greek boy since then, more or less. You're kidding. No, I'm not kidding. And he's great. He's awesome. She didn't move far from home. She has, like, a great job. And I was sure she would move to Montreal like all her friends did and everybody moves to Montreal. But she never did. And I admire that. because she's really building a strong foundation and she's very happy. That's wonderful. I'm so glad to hear that.

37:47Jonathan Goldstein:And Nicholas is like amazing. I think I've told you he's a track athlete, like a star athlete. Really? Yeah. He's graduated from high school. And he's like coaching me now. And he's just turned into a really amazing, like resilient, like deals with all kinds of hardship really maturely, like the total opposite of me. Like, I don't know. He says he gets spiritual guidance from me, but I don't know what that would be or if he's just blowing smoke up my ass.

38:17Tony:No, you guys have a special connection.

38:20Jonathan Goldstein:We do. We laugh a lot. Like, we have a good relationship. We have a really good time. That's so nice.

38:25Tony:So how are you?

38:26Jonathan Goldstein:I mean, you look well. Thanks. So do you. Oh, well, you don't have to say that. No, but you do. I mean, basically, I'm okay. I'm three and a half months into the stay here. which is going to be a year.

38:42Tony:Wait a second. So why don't you explain what here is?

38:46Jonathan Goldstein:Right. Of course I have to do that. Here is the Clear Sky Meditation and Study Center. It's like a Buddhist-based retreat center in the Rocky Mountains of Canada. And it's where I live with 12 other people who are permanent, well, long-term residents. And I'm trying it out for a year. I'm living in a kind of pseudo-monastic situation. And there's deer everywhere, and they just stand like 10 feet away and like stare at you before they dart off. There's coyotes and like howling like 30 feet from the building at night. It's really beautiful. And it's tough. It's tough here. It's tiring. It's not for everybody.

39:28Tony:Could you just explain a little about how you found out about this place?

39:33Jonathan Goldstein:Yeah. I owe this to my former mother-in-law, Natalie's mom, actually. just a couple of years into my relationship with Natalie, I was looking for a place to meditate. And she picked up a flyer from this place. She used to go do yoga and said, this guy is supposed to be good. And then when I showed up, I realized, oh, this is traditional, like religious Buddhism. And my first reaction was, no, I don't want that. I came to the wrong place. This is not why. I don't think so, basically. But he was a very down-to-earth teacher, and he just talked and made a lot of sense to me, and I connected really quickly with him.

40:17Tony:So what is the path that you're on right now? You're thinking of staying there for a year, but that is in service to possibly staying there forever?

40:28Jonathan Goldstein:Possibly. Anything is possible right now. Like, at this moment in time, anything is possible. I don't know what I'm going to do. And you're comfortable with that? Well, not really. But yes, also. I mean, I don't know what choice to have. I don't want to live in Montreal when I started taking care of my mom when she got sick.

40:47Tony:We should say that in the time since the episode, your mother has passed away. Yeah. And that sort of both freed you and kind of untethered you from the city, from Montreal. Yeah. Yeah.

41:09Jonathan Goldstein:So my mom was diagnosed with dementia right before COVID. And it was horrifying. The onset was horrifying because you don't know what it means. You don't know what it's going to mean to take care of somebody who's demented. I had the worst kind of ideas in my head. but it turned out to be yeah my my stint as a parent you know the closest i'm ever going to get to being a parent is i think is taking care of my mom for a few years while she was uh unable to take care of herself and it also brought my relationship with her to a very paradoxically a very good close because we got so close and also because there was this cognitive opening where she wouldn't recognize me a lot of the time and so we were like strangers so there was a different quality to our interactions there was a like a freshness or a kind of openness at times which was really amazing that's a nice way to to see it yeah yeah i i drew a lot of um strength from that it was just a freedom and by the end i mean it's weird taking care of somebody who's going to die as opposed to growing up to be you know an adult that's kind of go to school and have a whole life it's it's it's weird it's there's a strangeness to that um but in a way i i feel like i grew it up like i became like i finally became an adult um but i don't know what i'm gonna do in the long term because it's i'm still adjusting just to being like a middle-aged person and what that means like i'm not even sure like i think i'm starting to realize what that means now what does that mean to you what does it mean to me it means the time is running out like really starting to get a sense of like you're on the downslope, like things pick up speed as opposed to, oh God, life is so hard because you're going up but you're still on the upslope.

43:17Jonathan Goldstein:But now it's like, no, things are getting worse. My body is a lot of body issues in the last couple of years. But the bigger picture is like, where do I want to live? Who do I want to be near? What do I want to do? These questions are all floating up in the air because I walked away from any kind of, you know, structure. I don't have a family. I don't have, I keep coming back to that. I don't have like my, my oldest and dearest friends are scattered all over the place. They're not going to live with me. You know, you guys aren't going to be, you know, coming up the street with meatballs, sandwiches when I'm demented.

43:57Jonathan Goldstein:Howard might. Howard might. Maybe, you know, he'll be demented first. I don't know. I don't know. God forbid. So it's like, and it's not like, oh, I'm setting up a nice little hospice for myself so that I can have nice people to take care of me. Like, I don't, I don't care what happens. Throw me off a cliff. Fill me with some yogurt. No, I mean, you, call Jackie.

44:17Tony:You want all the regular things. It's, it's just, you're taking a, a rather unconventional route to get to those things. Yeah. I, I think it has to do with knowing what you're going to do, right?

44:36Jonathan Goldstein:So if you're not sure that there's a container for you in life, whether there's a job or it's a family or a very particular career track, which is very involving, which has steps which you can follow, you're kind of free-floating. You're in free fall. And now it's like kindergarten all over again. I'm like, okay, what next? What's next? And like, where's my mommy? Like, I'm like, what the fuck am I doing? What am I doing here? Like not knowing, really not knowing. But is that exciting also at all?

45:10Tony:Yeah, it is. It's very exciting. That's good. Tony, I'm so sorry to have to run off. I'm looking at the time. I could talk to you all night, but I'm supposed to take Augie. He's got a basketball game.

45:24Jonathan Goldstein:Give my love to Augie and Emily and tell them I say hi. and we'll talk soon.

45:29Tony:I will. I will, man. Good to see you. Okay. You be well. Okay, man. Bye for now. Bye-bye.

45:40Tony:Thanks to everyone who helped put the episode together. And we'll be back once again with another exciting update in two weeks. Also, we're starting a free newsletter. I know what you're thinking. You're thinking, finally, yes, that's right, Not just audio, but now in the form of news and a letter sent directly to your inbox. And who knows? Maybe you'll even hear from a producer or two. Kalila Holt?

46:10Jonathan Goldstein:Yeah, you probably will.

46:12Tony:We'll let you know when new episodes are coming out. And we'll send out some other fun stuff as well, like word puzzles. We're not going to send out word puzzles. Well, we don't know yet. We might make crossword puzzles, word jumbles. we want to share everything that we can and you can sign up for that at patreon.com slash heavyweight

46:50Jonathan Goldstein:I'm Nomi Fry I'm Vincent Cunningham I'm Alex Schwartz and we are Critics at Large a podcast from The New Yorker. Guys, what do we do on the show every week? We look into the startling maw of our culture and try to figure something out. That's right. We take something that's going on in the culture now. Maybe it's a movie. Maybe it's a book.

47:07Tony:Maybe it's just kind of a trend. And we expand it across culture as kind of a pattern or a template. Join us on Critics at Large from The New Yorker.

47:17Jonathan Goldstein:New episodes drop every Thursday. Follow wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human. I'll see you next time.