Epstein co-conspirator refuses to answer lawmakers' questions

0:00Support for Here and Now Anytime comes from MathWorks, creator of MATLAB and Simulink software for technical computing and model based design. MathWorks, accelerating the pace of discovery in engineering and science. Learn more at MathWorks.com. WBUR Podcasts, Boston. We will bring her back so that she can answer questions and hopefully finally start to answer questions truthfully. Ghislaine Maxwell, Jeffrey Epstein's convicted co-conspirator, evades questions in a deposition before a congressional committee.

0:44It's Monday, February 9th, and this is Here and Now Anytime from NPR and WBOR Boston. I'm Shiko Theuri. Today on the show, Jimmy Lai, the former Hong Kong media tycoon and a fierce critic of Beijing, was sentenced to 20 years in prison. It's the longest punishment given so far under a Chinese imposed national security law. And...

1:16Bad Bunny electrifies the Super Bowl halftime show. But first, Jeffrey Epstein's co-conspirator, Ghislaine Maxwell, dodged questions during a deposition in front of the House Oversight Committee today. Maxwell was convicted in 2021 for her role in luring underage girls for Epstein to exploit and is currently serving a 20-year sentence. She appeared for today's deposition virtually from prison as part of the Republican-led committee's investigation into Epstein's network. But as expected, she avoided questions, invoking her Fifth Amendment privilege against self-incrimination. Vicki Ward is an investigative journalist who has been following all of this.

1:58She breaks down the latest with Robin Young. I mean, she had always said that she wouldn't talk unless guaranteed immunity. And, you know, that wasn't going to happen. You know, her brother, Kevin, spoke to British media over the weekend and said that, you know, she doesn't have access to a laptop. and that given the enormity of the number of files that's been released, it would not be in her interest to start answering questions when she has no idea of some of the content that's been released. Especially in the UK, boy, these released files have really been a bombshell in the UK. We know that Prime Minister Keir Starmer appointed Peter Mandelson as ambassador.

2:46This was on the advice of a chief of staff who told him to appoint him. It turns out Mandelson was a close friend of Epstein's. Starmer fired Mandelson back in September. Could there be any more stepping down there? Well, you know, I think what's happened in England is really interesting because the two figures who have really paid probably the biggest price professionally in the world for their association with Epstein are Peter Mandelson and the former Prince Andrew, now Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor. And what's interesting is that they've both, you know, been publicly disgraced for different reasons.

3:30Mandelson, what the police are now looking into is whether or not he illegally gave Epstein market sensitive information. and obviously Prince Andrew's fall has been to do with the sexual crimes. And I think what's interesting is that those two stories show the sort of multi-pronged nature of Jeffrey Epstein in that there was a whole lot of transactionality going on and I think that that's what we've seen in the latest document dump this last week. Well, we're seeing this reverberate around the world. politicians, the elite, with ties to Epstein in Norway, in Slovakia, you know, facing consequences, people stepping down.

4:15And then here in the U.S., we still have Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick, who, you know, said that he, you know, was disgusted by Epstein, who was his neighbor. But then this dump reveals that he had a very close relationship and had actually been to Epstein's Island. And this is, of course, not just a cabinet member in President Trump's cabinet, but a close confidant of President Trump and no consequences. What is your sense of there seeming to be no repercussions in the US? Well, you know, it does seem to have less of a culture of shame than there is in the UK. But I guess you could make the case, Howard Lucknick, what is he guilty of, he's guilty of lying in an interview when he said he was disgusted by Jeffrey Epstein and he turned on his heel and walked out the door.

5:07What the emails reveal is that he and his wife and young children and another family also with young children visited the island. Should the American people, you know, what confidence does that give us in Trump's cabinet, in our Commerce Secretary, if he's not capable of telling the truth? Well, back to today's hearings and Gideon Maxwell not testifying, not answering questions, you know, pleading the fifth. The Clintons, former President Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, are to be testifying February 26th and 27th, but they've said they want a public deposition, wide open, let everybody hear. What is the sense of whether or not that might happen and what we might hear?

5:55Right. Well, none of the survivors I've ever spoken to have ever accused Bill Clinton of sexual abuse. You know, what Bill Clinton is arguably guilty of is poor judgment. You know, when you get on Jeffrey Epstein's plane and you look around and there are a large number of young women and you're a former president of America, it's possibly not a great idea to be travelling the world with this man if those are the optics. You know, I don't think Congress will do what the Clintons ask, which is unfortunate. I think it would be great if the hearings were in public. The whole problem with this story is the lack of transparency.

6:37And so the more transparency that can be given is what the American people want and deserve. Vicky Ward, investigative journalist covering Jeffrey Epstein for more than 20 years. Vicky, thank you. Thank you.

6:55Coming up next, media tycoon Jimmy Lai now faces 20 years in prison. What does this case mean for the future of press freedom in China? Stay with us.

7:13Thank you.

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8:27A Hong Kong court on Monday sentenced publisher Jimmy Lai to 20 years in prison. Prosecutors said the newspaper he founded and owned, called Apple Daily, used its reporting and opinion pages to promote pro-democracy activism and encourage foreign governments to impose sanctions on Hong Kong and China. It's the longest punishment yet under the territory's national security law. Lai is 78 and in failing health, according to his family. We spoke to Jimmy Lai's daughter, Claire Lai, after he was convicted last year. She said the family was already preparing for the worst. Now, with a sentence handed down, her family's campaign for his release is even more urgent.

9:09Here's her conversation with Indira Lakshman on. Tell us how you felt when you heard that your father, who's nearly 80, was given a 20-year sentence. Some have called it a death sentence. I mean, it absolutely is a death sentence. I was absolutely heartbroken. And, you know, for a man who has done nothing wrong, I mean, all they've proven is that he is a man who loves God, loves freedom and loves his family. And truth is an essential element of that. And, yeah, but I do hope that now that he is sentenced, it will open the doors for diplomatic discussions for a political solution to be reached for his release.

9:51And by that you meet, you're referring to the U.S. and the U.K. governments. Your father is a British citizen. The government's calling for your father's release. What are you hoping for from them? Absolutely. I mean, sorry, is your question related to the UK government? Yes. What are you expecting world leaders to do to pressure for your father's release, despite the sentence? So not just the UK and the US, but my father stood for values that I think are shared in many democracies. So I hope that many world leaders who have stood up for my father and called for his release continue to do so and do so forcefully.

10:33You know, in the example of the UK, I mean, there is a clear indication that the UK wishes to be closer to China and its relationship. I am not going to sit here and say that it shouldn't be or whatever. But what I am going to say is that China has in the past breached its treaties with the UK. The Sino-British Joint Declaration is one. And, you know, with relations between sovereign trust is an important element. And asking for a gesture of goodwill, which is releasing your citizen, should not be. who is in aging health and has done nothing wrong, should not be a big ask. Claire, for listeners who are not familiar with your father's very inspirational story, he fled communist China as a young man, made a rags to riches fortune in Hong Kong.

11:25Just briefly tell us how his work for democracy was an extension of the work that he had done throughout his life advocating for freedom. You know, my father, he, his first taste of freedom was, his first taste of freedom was in Hong Kong when he, gosh, when he was working in the factories, when it tasted of wanton rice, and it was as concrete as the machines he worked with. And, you know, it's filled with sweat. And, you know, it wasn't until later that he recognized it as freedom, but he had his political awakening during the Tiananmen Square massacre. And then he decided to, when his company was taken away, he was forced to sell his company, he decided to start a newspaper company, which became Apple Daily and Next Magazine.

12:18Thank you so much, Claire Lai, daughter of publisher Jimmy Lai. Thank you so much.

12:29coming up bad bunny made a remarkable statement at last night's halftime show find out why his performance resonates so deeply after the break

12:45at last night's super bowl halftime show bad bunny brought a bold brave and beautiful portrayal of America. There is something powerful about the sound of the human voice. Beautifully produced audio has the unique power to connect and inspire. Tell your organization's story with a custom podcast from City Space Productions, the creative studio from WBUR's business partnerships team. Become a thought leader. Recruit new talent. Reach new audiences. Whatever your goal, we can help. Discover how the magic is made at

13:32That sound from Westwood One Sports, the official U.S. radio broadcaster of the Super Bowl. And last night's performance was an energetic and vivid illustration of Puerto Rico's story, culture, and people, performed almost entirely in Spanish. Even if you couldn't follow the words, the imagery spoke powerfully for itself. Let's parse through it with Alana Casanova Burgess. She hosts a bilingual podcast about Puerto Rican history and culture called La Brega. Here's her conversation with Indira. So we had you on last Friday to introduce listeners to Bad Bunny's music. Let's do some Monday morning musical quarterbacking and talk about his narrative storytelling.

14:16His set was incredible. It gave us some beautiful visual snapshots of Puerto Rico from sugarcane fields to street vendors to electrical workers on utility poles. What was the story he was telling us about Puerto Rico? You know, I've been seeing people say like, oh, it wasn't a very political show in that respect. But I think it really was. I mean, celebrating these different visions of labor, but really like human, the humanity of labor. We are not just workers. We are not just people who perform certain functions in society. But there was a story, right? We went to a wedding. We went to a wedding that was so Latino that he had to wake up a little kid who was sleeping on a couple of chairs.

14:57And apparently it was a real wedding. Those people actually got married live during the Super Bowl. Actually got married. Exactly. And so there was so much joy. But it was also, you know, sugarcane fields are political spaces. He was up on utility poles. He climbed up without a harness. But those utility poles, obviously, the first thing we think of are the blackouts that happen in Puerto Rico all the time. And he was singing El Apagón, which is a song about that, you know, but it's also a dance track. Which means literally the blackout. The blackout, exactly. And so he was taking us between these, like, you know, serious points, but also dancing, you know, joy as resistance.

15:33I just thought it was such a beautiful performance, such a beautiful piece of theater almost. Lady Gaga shows up. If the fall was ending, I'd want to be next to you.

15:51I couldn't believe it was her. I was like, what is this blonde lady doing at our wedding? You know, and he was just also delivering messages of such humanity and kindness and making the point that we all have dignity. Right. I thought that that was so important. I was really struck that I almost felt like I was on a very well-produced tourism video for the Archipelago of Puerto Rico because he had the elderly domino players, the barbershop, the nail salon. We got to see some highlights of Puerto Rican food. There was the coconut water, the piraguas, which is the flavored shaved ice, the tacos.

16:30And then we had some Puerto Rican boxers. Tell us, though, he had the number 64 on the back of his football jersey. Tell us what that meant. Well, I think what we think it means is a reference to the quote-unquote official number of the dead after Hurricane Maria, which was 64. We obviously know that the number was much larger. It was in the thousands. But the government really insisted that it was 64 for a long time after Hurricane Maria, right? So there was that element of it as well. You mentioned the boxers. One boxer was Puerto Rican. The other boxer was Mexican. He also had some tacos there.

17:08So it was a vision, I think, that went beyond Puerto Rico, but it was definitely rooted in our experience. You saw him fly the Puerto Rican flag with light blue, which is a pro-independence flag. The darker blue color is more for statehood or for the status quo. That showed up at the end, but you really got a sense of like, oh, this is Bad Bunny's Puerto Rico, right? I'm not sure that the tourism board wants to highlight the utility poles or the old men playing dominoes, but that's part of our experience, right? That's our landscape, and he really brought that to the Super Bowl. All right, so for listeners who don't speak Spanish, summarize what he was saying in some of these songs.

17:49Yeah, well, he started out with a couple of his biggest hits, biggest bangers. We obviously went to a wedding, but those are songs that I think almost anyone who's been to a wedding of any kind in the last few years might have heard that on the dance floor. He had Titi Me Pregunto, which is about, you know, having lots of girlfriends. He also had Yo Perreo Sola, which is a much more important feminist anthem about being a woman and dancing alone and not being bothered by men on the dance floor. We also heard El Apagón, which is about blackouts in Puerto Rico, but also celebrating Puerto Rico anyway.

18:24You know, we have each other. He also did Lo Que Le Paso a Hawaii, which was sung by Ricky Martin. Quieren quitarme el río y también la playa. Quieren el barrio mío y que abuelita se vaya. No, no, suelte la bandera.

18:47But Ricky Martin singing that song, Lo Que Le Paso a Hawaii, that's a song against statehood. That's a song against losing your identity. Right. So Ricky Martin, that was a real call out to the past. And Ricky Martin arguably is the crossover Latino singer who paved the way for modern Latin pop that then now Bad Bunny is inhabiting. And hasn't Ricky Martin praised Bad Bunny for saying he's doing what Ricky Martin couldn't do back in his time, singing entirely in Spanish? Precisely. And that was what he was saying, bringing Ricky Martin out. And of course, like always such a joy to see Ricky look so good at any age.

19:29He looked amazing. He looked great. He sounded great. Yes. All right. So tell us about some of the musical styles that we heard. I picked up salsa, I picked up bomba, I picked up reggaeton. What else was there? Yeah, at the end, there was Plena. We had Los Pleneros de la Cresta, which is a group actually from my mom's hometown of Ciales. They came out, and that's usually Christmas music. It's Te Vi Tira Mas Fotos is the song that we were hearing there, which is I Should Have Taken More Pictures. It's this very folkloric kind of musical style, Plena. And that's what we saw at the end during this beautiful sort of parade of American nations where he was, he said, God bless America.

20:40And then tell us about the parade of flags, all the flags we saw. Yeah, you know, he's really painting a picture there of like a hemisphere that is America, right? Not the United States of America, which centers this one country, this one empire, but really knitting us all together and saying like, yeah, we're all Americans. We're all from the same side of the world. I thought that was so beautiful. And in fact, you know, today after this, I'll be on Mexican radio. I also get an invitation from a Canadian TV station. So obviously, we're all already talking about this the day after. I also was struck that it was really about star power.

21:16Here's a show that was seen by 100 million people around the world and total star power. As you say, Lady Gaga was there. I think Pedro Pascal was dancing on the set and so was Cardi B. Yeah, we saw enormous star power. It's a party in a house. And sometimes in houses, there are little kids. So he made a point of giving his Grammy to a little boy. I think we know now that it's a little boy who's supposed to represent him as a child. He's wearing the same outfit that Bad Bunny, I guess Baby Bunny is wearing in a photo of him as a kid, right? So we know the symbolism there. But I think for me and for a lot of people, we saw that little kid and we wondered, is this kid standing in for the children who are being detained by ICE and being deported by ICE, right?

22:08Like the child, Liam Conejo Ramos, Conejo, by the way, means rabbit, means bunny. So I think a lot of people saw that and thought, oh, this is what he's trying to say. And, you know, I don't think that's necessarily wrong, even though it wasn't actually him. Interesting observation that indeed a conejo means rabbit and that this was meant to be baby bunny. Very interesting. Alana Casanova Burgess, host of the Bilingual Podcast about Puerto Rican history and culture, La Brega. Alana, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you, Indira.

22:59Here and Now Anytime comes from NPR and WBUR Boston. Today's stories were produced by Hafsa Qureshi, Jenea Williams, and Ashley Locke. Today's editors were Michael Scotto and Mikaela Rodriguez. Technical direction from Andre Peralta and Matt Reed. Our theme music is by Mike Moschetto, Max Liebman, and Chris Bentley. Our digital producers are Alison Hagen and Grace Griffin, and the executive producer of Here and Now is Alan Price. Thanks for listening. We'll be back tomorrow.