In short
The episode focuses first on Haitians (and some Syrians) losing Temporary Protected Status (TPS) protections from deportation after the Trump administration ended TPS for people who entered legally in 2010. About 350,000 Haitians and 6,000 Syrians face possible ICE detention or self-deportation; a Supreme Court ruling took effect, but lower courts still block termination until they act. In Springfield, Ohio, Governor Mike DeWine says deportations would harm businesses and jobs Haitians created, calling return “sending them back to hell” due to gang control and a U.S. State Department level-4 travel advisory. A community leader warns of kidnapping and victimization; some may go to Canada instead of Haiti.
Guests
Camilo Montoya-Galvez (CBS immigration reporter) interviews Indira Lakshmanan (Springfield-area conversation). Later segments: Lisa Song (ProPublica) on an OMB rule giving political appointees veto power over federal research funding, citing physicist David W. Miller and Higgs boson collaboration concerns; Anthony Brooks interviews Lily Bermel (MIT Center for Energy and Environmental Policy Research) arguing clean-energy progress largely persists despite Trump-era rollbacks, with examples like wind/solar/batteries still dominating new grid additions.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOImpact of TPS Termination
0:57 to 1:54
Discussion on the implications of terminating Temporary Protected Status for Haitians.
“Today on the show, the White House wants to tighten its grip on research funding and make it harder for American scientists to join international collaborations.”
Local Reactions in Springfield
1:54 to 3:19
Exploring community concerns in Springfield over potential deportations.
“Here's his conversation with Indira Lakshmanan.”
Conditions in Haiti
3:19 to 4:25
Examining the dangerous conditions Haitians would face if deported.
“I think listeners might be surprised to hear such pushback to President Trump's signature anti-migrant policy from a Republican governor.”
U.S. Citizen Children and Deportation
4:25 to 6:05
Discussion on the difficult choices faced by U.S. citizen children of TPS holders.
“State Department in Dira actually tells Americans not to visit Haiti due to the widespread gang violence there.”
White House Research Funding Changes
6:05 to 7:39
Introduction to proposed changes in research funding by the White House.
“That's CBS immigration reporter Camilo Montoya-Galvez joining us from Springfield, Ohio.”
Concerns Over Political Control of Research
7:53 to 12:30
Experts discuss how the proposed rule could impact scientific research.
“A new rule proposed by the White House would give political appointees veto power over scientific research.”
Implications for Clean Energy Funding
12:30 to 14:00
Discussion on the effects of political decisions on clean energy initiatives.
“So the public comment period for this proposed rule closed on July 13th.”
Trump's Impact on Clean Energy Funding
14:00 to 14:52
Discussion on the Trump administration's effects on clean energy grants and the Inflation Reduction Act.
“Well, since Trump returned to office last year, that same agency, the Office of Management and Budget, has also used its power overspending to cancel hundreds of grants for clean energy.”
The Resilience of Clean Energy
15:07 to 16:44
Exploring how clean energy initiatives are persisting despite political changes.
“The Trump administration's crusade against Biden-era efforts to encourage renewable energy development has given some climate advocates whiplash.”
Evaluating Capacity and Emissions
16:46 to 19:18
Analysis of the expected clean energy capacity and emissions reductions in the next decade.
“And what I found is that on average, over the coming decade, about three quarters of the clean energy capacity that would have been added to the grid under the prior policy environment will still get built.”
Show all 13 chapters
Challenges for Onshore Wind Power
19:19 to 21:43
Discussion on the difficulties facing onshore wind power deployment.
“As you said, less energy on the grid, higher prices, canceled projects, fewer jobs.”
The Future of Electric Vehicles
21:44 to 23:04
Examining the setbacks for electric vehicles due to policy changes.
“And so that included a special tax credit to buy and lease EVs.”
Policy Recommendations for Clean Energy
23:05 to 24:39
Suggestions for policymakers to enhance the clean energy transition moving forward.
“You argue that they shouldn't go back to the drawing board and sort of start from the beginning.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Lisa Song:This message comes from CubeSmart Self Storage. Whether you're moving, renovating, or just need some extra room in your home, CubeSmart offers storage that puts you first. Choose from storage lockers to climate-controlled units. Find storage near you at CubeSmart.com.
0:18Camilo Montoya-Galvez:WBUR Podcasts. Boston. These are people who have opened restaurants. They've opened other businesses. So to lose them is frankly a blow to Springfield, and it's a blow to the state of Ohio. Hundreds of thousands of Haitians who've lost their legal status have been given a choice. Leave on their own or risk detention by ICE.
0:53Camilo Montoya-Galvez:It's Tuesday, July 28th, and this is Here and Now Any Time. From NPR and WBUR, I'm Chris Bentley. Today on the show, the White House wants to tighten its grip on research funding and make it harder for American scientists to join international collaborations.
1:11Lisa Song:We would allow political appointees to decide what research is considered the most important.
1:17Camilo Montoya-Galvez:Also, despite President Trump's efforts to slow or kill the development of clean energy, it's moving forward anyway. But first, hundreds of thousands of Haitians and thousands of Syrians who fled natural disasters and war in their home countries are losing their legal protections from deportation. Some 350 ,000 Haitians and 6 ,000 Syrians have been living and working legally in the U.S. since 2010 under temporary protected status. But the Trump administration ended TPS for those immigrants, and now they could be deported at any time. CBS reporter Camilo Montoya-Galvez is in Springfield, Ohio, talking to Haitians there about how they're preparing.
2:01Camilo Montoya-Galvez:Here's his conversation with Indira Lakshmanan.
2:03Lisa Song:They have addresses of those who are living under temporary protected status. Are they going to be going door to door in Springfield? What are you expecting?
2:13Camilo Montoya-Galvez:Well, we were told by IceHorses and also documents that we obtained that the operations targeting Haitians specifically could start as soon as this week. The key open question is when that TPS status will officially terminate, because even though the Supreme Court's ruling took effect on Monday, the lower courts that currently have blocked the termination from taking place still have to act before the TPS status of people actually expires. So ICE, we are told, is still waiting on that official termination to take place.
2:47Lisa Song:You spoke to Ohio Governor Mike DeWine about the effect of these potential deportation orders affecting his community. Let's listen to what he told you.
2:57Camilo Montoya-Galvez:These are people who have opened restaurants. They've opened other businesses. They've rehabbed houses. They've created jobs as well as filled jobs. So to lose them and have them not be able to work anymore and possibly taken out of this country is frankly a blow to Springfield and it's a blow to the state of Ohio.
3:19Lisa Song:I think listeners might be surprised to hear such pushback to President Trump's signature anti-migrant policy from a Republican governor. He's saying this is going to have a negative economic impact on Ohio. Camilo, tell us, how widely is that view shared among business and political leaders across the state?
3:39Camilo Montoya-Galvez:That view is common here on a bipartisan basis in Dira. We have heard from community leaders and elected officials who say that deporting the Haitian immigrants here, most of whom are working age, would be detrimental to the state's economy and to the economy of communities like Springfield that have relied really on Haitian immigrants and other foreigners to rebuild their economies after decades of stagnant growth. He also told us, the governor did, Indira, that sending Haitians back to their home country would mean sending them back to hell. That is his exact way of phrasing that proposition.
4:17Camilo Montoya-Galvez:And he noted that large parts of Haiti are still controlled by gangs, that the country is still deep in political crisis. the U.S. State Department in Dira actually tells Americans not to visit Haiti due to the widespread gang violence there.
4:31Lisa Song:Well, I was actually just going to ask about that because the Department of Homeland Security says that conditions have improved in Haiti and Syria and people should just go home. Yet the State Department has a level four do not travel advisory for both countries. There are no commercial flights from the U.S. to the capital of either country. So what are Haitians and Syrians going to face when they return?
4:55Camilo Montoya-Galvez:It's a critical question. We spoke to one community leader here who fears that some of the Haitians who are deported, if the mass deportations do in fact materialize, could face kidnapping or other forms of victimization, even death because of the control that gangs have over many large swaths of the country. He is concerned about their safety, but he says that even though the Department of Homeland Security is offering Haitian immigrants a$2 ,600 stipend to self-deport and to go home voluntarily. Many will instead, he says, opt to go to places like Canada or other countries because of the dangerous conditions in Haiti.
5:35Lisa Song:All right, we have only a couple of seconds left. What happens to U.S. citizen children who have been born to Haitians in the last 15 years here?
5:43Camilo Montoya-Galvez:Well, if you ask the administration, Haitian TPS holders who have U.S. citizen children have two choices. They can either take those American-born children to Haiti, or they can leave the children here with relatives or other caregivers. That is, of course, an impossible choice in the eyes of many, but that is what the administration says Haitian TPS holders should now have to decide.
6:05Lisa Song:That's CBS immigration reporter Camilo Montoya-Galvez joining us from Springfield, Ohio. Camilo, thank you so much.
6:11Camilo Montoya-Galvez:Thank you.
6:23Camilo Montoya-Galvez:Coming up next, the White House has proposed a sweeping change that would give political appointees unprecedented control over research funding. One physicist who helped discover the Higgs boson says it could shut out American scientists from the next Nobel-worthy discovery. Anthony Brooks has that story after the break.
6:52Camilo Montoya-Galvez:This message comes from Audible. Manifestos are a call to action, an artful scream. They capture people's anger and try to do something with it. Dan Taberski's Manifesto is a podcast that attempts to take the manifesto back from mass shooters and nihilists and return it to its rightful place with regular folks with just the right amount of crazy. Listen to Dan Taberski's Manifesto wherever you get your podcasts or binge the entire series right now, only with Audible. Support for this podcast and the following message come from Vanguard. Every day, shareholders meet to discuss important matters about the companies you invest in.
7:30Camilo Montoya-Galvez:Now you can make your voice heard too. Vanguard Investor Choice makes it easy to set your proxy voting preference for your eligible Vanguard index funds. Visit Vanguard.com slash Investor Choice to learn more. Vanguard investors own shares of their index funds, and those funds own shares of the companies they invest in. Vanguard Marketing Corporation Distributor. A new rule proposed by the White House would give political appointees veto power over scientific research. The Trump administration says it's about transparency, accountability, and oversight. But some leading researchers say it could kneecap innovation and make science subservient to politics.
8:11Camilo Montoya-Galvez:Lisa Song has been reporting on this for ProPublica, and she's with us now. Lisa, thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me. So this proposed rule comes from the White House Office of Management and Budget, and an OMB spokesperson told you that it's about accountability to the American people and ensuring that taxpayer dollars are spent wisely. What would it actually do? How would it change how federal funding flows to the research?
8:39Lisa Song:Well, this proposal would really just upend the entire system of how federal funding is spent when it comes to all kinds of scientific research. So right now, if you're a scientist at a university and you want federal funding for your work, you have to write up a proposal. And then other scientists who are experts in the same field as you are, they debate and choose who gets funded. And so it's all about expertise. What this rule would do is it would allow political appointees and all of these agencies, like the National Science Foundation, like the National Institutes of Health, those political appointees would be able to make the final decision on who gets funded.
9:22Camilo Montoya-Galvez:I see. Now, to some extent, am I wrong about this? Federal funding has always been subject to the whims of whatever administration is in charge. So would this new rule really change things that much or just codify the current administration's political framing, if you will?
9:40Lisa Song:Yeah, it's true that there's always been some level of politics in funding, but it has traditionally been a lot less than what has been proposed. We have already seen over the past year and a half certain key words related to health disparities or communities of color or LGBT communities that the topic alone is enough for this administration to send letters and say, we're going to cut off your grant funding. You can no longer do this research. What this new rule does is it codifies all of these piecemeal one-off decisions on how to cancel grants. And this new rule is saying for dozens and dozens of federal agencies across the government, we would allow political appointees to decide what research is considered the most important.
10:30Camilo Montoya-Galvez:Now, one of the prominent scientists who you heard from is a University of Chicago physics professor named David W. Miller. He was part of the team at CERN, that's the International Physics Laboratory near Geneva, that's been behind major breakthroughs about the nature of the universe. Miller said that under this new rule, the U.S. might be excluded from that kind of collaboration. Can you tell me more about what he said? Yeah.
10:58Lisa Song:So he was part of a huge team of thousands of scientists from all over the world who made this big discovery in 2012, the discovery of what is called the Higgs boson. And it's basically a discovery that explains why you and I and the world around us have physical mass while light does not. And it's a really great example of the type of international collaboration needed for big research projects and big breakthroughs. And this rule has provisions in there that would limit what kind of foreign scientists U.S. scientists could collaborate with. These limitations are very vague in the rule, and it's unclear whether it's scientists from certain specific countries or what countries would be affected.
11:45Lisa Song:But the vague language promising certain restrictions on collaboration is what has David Miller and other scientists very worried because you can't make these huge discoveries if you're trying to exclude scientists from other countries in your project.
12:03Camilo Montoya-Galvez:So his concern is that American scientists could be excluded from leading fundamental research. Is that the idea?
12:11Lisa Song:Yes, because what's going to happen is if American scientists are restricted from working with scientists from other countries, it's not like the whole scientific enterprise is going to stop, right? All of those scientists from all the other countries will just work with each other. And so the fear is that U.S. scientists will just be left behind.
12:30Camilo Montoya-Galvez:I see. So the public comment period for this proposed rule closed on July 13th. The government says it wants to implement it as soon as October 1st, but there are thousands of comments against it, and there's been some criticism from Congress. So what happens next with this rule? Can the Trump administration just move ahead with it anyway? So there's several things that could happen.
12:52Lisa Song:OMB is required to provide responses to the substantive comments, so it could take them a while. Right. The docket shows thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of documents that have been submitted. And so looking at that timeline, it may be hard for them to respond to them and then revise and publish a final rule and have it be in place by October 1st. And I've talked to a lot of legal experts who say it's almost certain that various groups will file lawsuits to try to stop or change this rule. Also, at least one Republican senator, Senator Susan Collins of Maine, sent a pretty strongly worded letter to the OMB asking them to change substantial parts of the rule.
13:37So we know that this is something that both sides of the aisle care about.
13:41Camilo Montoya-Galvez:So, to be continued. That's Lisa Song. She's with ProPublica. Her story is called How Trump's America First Administration Could Shut U.S. Scientists Out of the Next Nobel-Worthy Discovery. And you can find a link to that story at hereandnow.org. Lisa, thank you so much for your reporting. We appreciate it. Thanks.
14:06Camilo Montoya-Galvez:Well, since Trump returned to office last year, that same agency, the Office of Management and Budget, has also used its power overspending to cancel hundreds of grants for clean energy. A lawyer for the agency recently admitted to a court that they pulled some of that funding, quote, based solely on the political identity of the grant recipient's state, end quote. That undercuts one of President Biden's key selling points for his signature climate law, the Inflation Reduction Act. The former president was fond of reminding people that most of the clean energy investments made by that law were in red states.
14:42Camilo Montoya-Galvez:But after the break, a new study says even with the Trump administration reversing much of the Inflation Reduction Act, the clean energy transition marches on. We'll be right back.
15:07Camilo Montoya-Galvez:The Trump administration's crusade against Biden-era efforts to encourage renewable energy development has given some climate advocates whiplash. But how effective has Trump been at hampering renewable energy in favor of fossil fuels? Maybe not as much as you might think. Here's Anthony Brooks with more. First, here's a little background. In 2022, President Biden signed the Inflation Reduction Act, an ambitious plan to spur the development of solar power, electric vehicles, and other zero-carbon industries to dramatically reduce carbon emissions. Donald Trump called it a Green News scam, and after he was elected, he resolved to kill it.
15:47Camilo Montoya-Galvez:Republicans passed the so-called One Big Beautiful Bill, which terminated major parts of the historic climate law. But a new report by MIT's Center for Energy and Environmental Policy Research argues that much of the influence and effects of the climate bill, particularly when it comes to electric power generation, have survived. Lily Bermel is the author of the report entitled Glass Half Full. She joins us now. Lily, welcome. Good to have you.
16:15Lisa Song:Thank you, Anthony. Great to be here today.
Read the full transcript
16:17Camilo Montoya-Galvez:So the One Big Beautiful Bill Act rescinded tax credits for wind and solar, among other things. But this report argues that the effects on the clean energy transition isn't as bleak as predicted. What did you find?
16:32Lisa Song:That's right. So I took some modeling looking at the current policy environment, which is defined by the changes to that Inflation Reduction Act in the repeal of all of the Biden-era power plant regulations. And I compared that to what we had under Biden. And what I found is that on average, over the coming decade, about three quarters of the clean energy capacity that would have been added to the grid under the prior policy environment will still get built. And for power sector emissions reductions, about two thirds will still occur as well.
17:06Camilo Montoya-Galvez:So what explains that? Because you would be forgiven for believing that the One Big Beautiful Bill Act with the rescinding of all of those tax rebates would really have done a number on these measures. What explains that about 70 percent of the clean energy capacity is still there?
17:24Lisa Song:Well, first, I think it comes down to having a clear-eyed recognition that while the One Big Beautiful Bill Act did make a lot of changes to the Inflation Reduction Act, it was not as damaging as the climate community feared it would be. And so in reality, while a lot of the grant programs were pulled back, that was a lot of money going directly to communities, and tax credits for wind and solar were phased down on an accelerated timeline, more or less, the rest of things still stood. a lot of the investments in the more innovative set of clean energy technologies and some of the loan programs.
18:02Lisa Song:What we see is that that three quarters capacity that will still get preserved on average, that reflects the market momentum behind wind and solar and batteries that get added to the grid every year. And so last year, we saw 90 % of what got added to the grid was wind, solar, and batteries. And that's not something any law can repeal or slow down.
18:24Camilo Montoya-Galvez:So that's really interesting. And I wanted to ask you about that. So it sounds like you're saying that despite the efforts of the federal government, these industries are now competitive in the marketplace on their own. So they have taken on real momentum of their own despite the absence of federal subsidies. Is that right?
18:40Lisa Song:Yes, they are often the cheapest to build. They're often quite fast. And so the Trump administration has thrown hurdle after hurdle after hurdle at wind and solar in particular. And while that does certainly have a chilling environment, in my analysis, important to note, does not include those extra extraneous actions by the Trump administration. The vast majority will still get deployed over the coming decade.
19:06Camilo Montoya-Galvez:The report, though, makes it pretty clear that removing and restricting energy tax credits is going to contribute to higher energy prices, project cancellations, job losses, and less energy added to the grid at a time when power demand is surging. Can you talk a little bit about that?
19:24Lisa Song:Yes, that's exactly right. So the losses are very real. As you said, less energy on the grid, higher prices, canceled projects, fewer jobs. What we see is that the fossil fleet that already exists runs for more hours of the day to fill in the gap that is left by less clean energy. And so that's part of why our power sector will be dirtier going forward. It's that the coal will be slower to retire without those regulations encouraging their retirement. And gas is so flexible and provides a really important reliability service for the grid that it's able to ramp up and fill in the space.
20:03Camilo Montoya-Galvez:I want to ask you, too, what you found out about onshore wind power, which I understand there'll be a lot less of that thanks to the Republicans' one big, beautiful bill law. What happens there?
20:16Lisa Song:So there's two different types of wind power, offshore and onshore. And interestingly, offshore wind is so small in its pipeline because you can really only build it in a couple of places that we see the same amount of deployment in both scenarios. But it's onshore wind that really struggles. And in particular, it's the only metric that falls below this kind of arbitrary glass half full 50 % preserved threshold. And the reason why is because onshore wind was actually already struggling under the Biden administration. It's a technology that has a lot of constraints and challenges that a tax credit just simply can't fix.
20:57Lisa Song:So for example, it's really dependent on transmission and on grid infrastructure to be able to connect where the wind is blowing to where cities are. And if we're building transmission so slowly, that really affects the onshore wind industry. It also is just a little bit more expensive and we're not seeing the same innovation-driven cost declines that we see in some other technologies. So it was already struggling and the removal of the tax credit kind of was beating it on its way down.
21:24Camilo Montoya-Galvez:I see. Now, your report does not look at the effect of Trump policies on electric vehicles. Why not? And do you have any sense of to the extent to which that industry has been set back?
21:37Lisa Song:Yes, great question. I chose to focus this report just on the power sector. So when we think about that 75 percent clean energy preserved and two thirds emissions reductions preserved, that's just in the power sector and doesn't represent the whole economy effort to decarbonize. For transportation, I definitely would say that that sector had a far bigger setback than the power sector, in part because the Trump administration has been quite successful in dismantling the entire apparatus of regulations and incentives that were supporting the EV transition. And so that included a special tax credit to buy and lease EVs.
22:18Lisa Song:That includes the special waiver that California has to regulate cars at a more ambitious level than the federal level. It includes the tailpipe regulations and a couple of other things. And so number one, what's interesting is that because the car fleet turnover is so slow, we won't see the damage so immediately. But on the policy front, we are really stripped of all tools and ability to invest in this sector. And so it will require a lot of creative, innovative thinking about how to spur competition and innovation in our domestic automobile industry so that we can make sure we remain competitive and go to EVs.
22:56Camilo Montoya-Galvez:All right. But the big takeaway here is that the glass is half full. In fact, it's more like the glass is three quarters full, it sounds like. Exactly. So given all this, how should policymakers in the next administration seek to boost the clean energy transition? You argue that they shouldn't go back to the drawing board and sort of start from the beginning. Where should they be putting their efforts?
23:18Lisa Song:That's a great question. And I think the report is most illuminating to answer that question about what does the next era of climate policy look like? And so hypothetically, right, if the glass was half empty, if the majority of progress under the Biden administration is wiped out, that would encourage policymakers to try to restore what Biden did, because clearly it was successful or had a lot of promise to it. But in reality, if most of the benefits and progress are preserved thanks to market conditions and other tailwinds like demand from big tech companies, What that suggests is that on policy, we should be thinking about new things, new opportunities that we didn't quite solve before.
24:01Lisa Song:And so while the IRA focused on wind and solar and other technologies, what we're seeing is, wow, wind and solar is quite resilient. And so let's do things to commercialize the other set of technologies like geothermal and advanced nuclear and carbon capture that are 100 % necessary to decarbonize. And then there's a set of things to do about how fast can you build in this country and how much can we expand the grid and strengthen it. And we want to double the size of our grid to power our economy and to meet our national security demands. And so there's a lot of opportunity to do new policy rather than rerun an old playbook.
24:38All right.
24:39Camilo Montoya-Galvez:Well, that's Lily Burmel. She was a policy advisor under special presidential climate envoy John Kerry during the Biden administration. She's a visiting fellow at Columbia University's Center for Global Energy Policy and author of a new report from MIT's Center for Energy and Environmental Policy Research entitled Glass Half Full. Lily, thank you so much.
25:00Lisa Song:Thank you. Great to join you today.
25:12Camilo Montoya-Galvez:That's it for the show today. Here and now, anytime comes from NPR and WBUR Boston. Today's stories were produced by James Mastromarino, Wilder Fleming, and me, Chris Bentley. Our editors were Todd Munt, Micaela Rodriguez, and Kat Welch. Technical direction from Caleb Green and Matt Reed. I wrote the theme music, along with Mike Moschetto and Max Liebman. Our digital producers are Alison Hagen and Grace Griffin. And here and now's executive producer is Alan Price. Thanks for listening. We'll be back with you tomorrow.
25:46you
From the publisher
Then, a new rule proposed by the White House would give political appointees veto power over scientific research. ProPublica's Lisa Song tells us more.
And, despite President Trump's resolve to repeal the Biden administration's Inflation Reduction Act, a new report finds that the clean energy transition is still largely following the trajectory laid out in the IRA. We speak with the author of the report, Lily Bermel.
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