Iranians in the U.S. fear for family back home

0:00Yeganeh Rezaian:Support for NPR and the following message come from the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation. Investing in creative thinkers and problem solvers who help people, communities, and the planet flourish. More information is available at hewlett.org.

0:15Jeh Johnson:WBUR Podcasts.

0:17Yeganeh Rezaian:Boston.

0:19Jeh Johnson:While it will take time and energy and planning for everyone to come to one clear census about what the plan B is, the Iranian people on the ground are paying the price with their blood.

0:37Yeganeh Rezaian:The political outcomes of war in the Middle East are uncertain, but civilians are already suffering.

0:56Yeganeh Rezaian:It's Wednesday, March 4th, and this is Here and Now, Anytime from NPR and WBUR. I'm Chris Bentley.

1:05Yeganeh Rezaian:Today on the show, a former Homeland Security Secretary worries about terrorist blowback from the U.S.-Israeli attack on Iran. Also, the midterm election season has begun, with primary results in for several races, including U.S. Senate in Texas. We are not going to go quietly. And we are not going to let you buy the seat. The head of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee says she likes her odds for flipping the house. Coming up in about 15 minutes. But first. Today, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth said the U.S. and Israel's war against Iran, now on its fifth day, is just beginning. And as President Trump said, more and larger waves are coming.

1:54Yeganeh Rezaian:We are just getting started. We are accelerating, not decelerating. Hegseth also said an American submarine torpedoed and sank an Iranian warship in the Indian Ocean in international waters off Sri Lanka. Sri Lankan authorities said there were 180 people on board, 32 of them were rescued, and 87 bodies were recovered, so far, adding to a death toll of more than 1 ,000 people in the war, most of them in Iran, according to the Red Crescent and authorities in the region. Today, we got the perspective of Iranian-American journalist Yegana Rezaian, who was imprisoned by the government in 2014, along with her American husband, Jason Rezaian, who was then the Tehran bureau chief for the Washington Post.

2:42Yeganeh Rezaian:She was held for more than two months. Her husband was held for 544 days in Iran's most notorious prison and tortured. Yegane Rezaian spoke to Indira Lakshmanan from Washington, D.C. So what was your reaction when you heard that Iran's supreme leader, the man under whom you and your husband were imprisoned, had been killed by an Israeli strike?

3:07Jeh Johnson:First of all, my first reaction was happiness. I am very happy to see that a dictator was eliminated from my country, from torturing my people in many different ways, from economic to literal, physical. in the hands of him and by the orders of him. But unfortunately, that happiness is completely overshadowed by the realities on the ground and what the people are going through and the fact that his elimination does not immediately in the short time translate into the freedom of the people and the prosperity of the people and the suffering of the people.

3:53Yeganeh Rezaian:Well, you're pointing out something which we've seen reported, that there were some Iranians celebrating in the street after hearing the news of the death of the Supreme Leader. But at the same time, the Iranian Red Crescent has reported that some 800 Iranian people have been killed in these airstrikes. So I want to ask, what are you hearing from your parents, your family members, your friends who are still inside Iran? What is the mood like there?

4:20Jeh Johnson:well again that's a very correct observations there were some we also saw videos and short footages of people quickly celebrate but unfortunately their celebrations was immediately faced by security forces coming back to the streets and trying to shoot at people Since then, I was told by friends and family that people are receiving these SMSs on their phones, threatening them that they should not appear in the streets or gather anywhere in groups to have any forms of gathering, let alone to celebrations. And that will immediately be met by arrests and prosecution.

5:09Yeganeh Rezaian:What about your communication with your own family? What are your concerns for their safety?

5:15Jeh Johnson:It's very difficult. Once the government shut down internet and even landlines or cell phones, often I lose touch with my family members for days, with friends. But you asked something in your previous question about what's the mood. People are, despite that short celebration and happiness due to the elimination of supreme leader, are panicked, are frightened, are very worried. I was chatting with a couple of my friends who live in the same neighborhood that I was born and raised in. And they told me they could not sleep for two nights in a row because just the sound of explosions, and this is in northwest of Tehran, were extremely unbearable.

6:07Jeh Johnson:and the family members were just holding on to each other and shaking. The people want freedom, but this is absolutely inhumane and unfair to the same people who have been stripped of their freedoms by this regime for many years. They have set up, in the streets, many, many checkpoints, checking on people's coming and going again in the streets of Tehran and other cities. What I hope the Western or the international community sees that this war is not going to provide any immediate freedom to the people. And I'm only on the side of the people because I am one of them, and they are the ones who are paying the price, despite putting a brave face out, hoping that this will lead to their freedom.

7:14Jeh Johnson:And all I'm worried about is that this is not, what if it does not translate to their freedom? What if this won't put an end to this regime. The arrests are continuing. The political prisoners, including several dual citizens and foreigners, are in really bad position at Avin Prison. There are reports saying that the guards have left prisons in multiple locations, including Avin Prison, and prisoners are left with only water and dry bread. There is nobody to hear them. There is nobody to help them if a bin prison is shot by a missile to help and open the door for these prisoners. Satellite connections have been jammed.

8:08Yeganeh Rezaian:Yege, I can hear in your voice your concern for everyone in Iran, for all of the civilians who are living under a repressive regime. What specifically about your concerns about your parents, your sister? What are your worries about their safety?

8:25Jeh Johnson:Well, like every other Iranian inside and outside the country, I'm worried about my family as well. I'm worried about my sister, who is paralyzed and does not even have feet to run away if a bomb lands on her.

8:45Jeh Johnson:But despite the elimination of the supreme leader, this is not a regime that will fall today.

8:53Yeganeh Rezaian:Let me ask you, the whole question is regime change and whether that's the goal of the Trump administration. But a lot of observers are bringing up the Iraq war, which lasted nearly nine years. Do you worry that history might repeat itself with more violence and more cost on the ground to the people of Iran if the U.S. goes even further in pursuing regime change there, along with its partners in Israel?

9:22Jeh Johnson:Yes, I am extremely worried about that. President Trump seems to be confused in his remarks about who he thinks would be the transitional leader or any next leader. There is so much chaos on the ground, and even here within the U.S. government, so much unclarity. And while it will take time for everyone to come to one clear census about what the plan B is, the Iranian people on the ground are paying the price with their blood.

10:01Yeganeh Rezaian:Yegane Razayan was wrongfully detained in Iran more than 10 years ago. She's now a journalist in exile living in Washington, D.C. Yegi, thank you so much for joining us and sharing your story and everything you're hearing from your family and friends back home.

10:18Jeh Johnson:Thank you so much for having me and for giving voice to the Iranians everywhere. web.

10:28Yeganeh Rezaian:We've got more on the war and possible implications for security in the U.S. after the break.

10:43Yeganeh Rezaian:Support for NPR and the following message come from the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation, investing in creative thinkers and problem solvers who help people, communities, and the planet flourish. More information is available at Hewlett.org. Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem is defending her department's use of aggressive tactics in immigration enforcement before Congress this week in hearings with the House Judiciary Committee and the Senate Judiciary Committee. Those tactics have included federal agents shooting two U.S. citizens dead in the streets of Minneapolis, Renee Macklin-Good and Alex Preddy.

11:21Yeganeh Rezaian:Even Republican Senator Tom Tillis joined calls for Noam to step down. That is stonewalling. That's a failure of leadership. And that is why I've called for your resignation. We wanted to hear the perspective of a former Homeland Security Secretary on that and on the potential Homeland Security implications of the Iran war. So earlier today, Indira spoke with Jay Johnson. He was head of DHS under President Barack Obama. So we'll get to Secretary Noem's testimony, but first let's talk about the Iran war. CENTCOM Commander Admiral Brad Cooper released this video. Let's listen. By order of the President of the United States and the Secretary of War, our military in the Middle East is undertaking an unprecedented operation to eliminate Iran's ability to threaten Americans as they've been doing for nearly half a century.

12:10Yeganeh Rezaian:Many of you may remember the shock and awe strikes of 2003. The first 24 hours of this operation were nearly double the scale, and we continue with 24-7 strikes into Iran from seabed to space and cyberspace. So let's take those assertions in turn. First, Admiral Cooper says that Iran was a threat to Americans for nearly half a century. You've reviewed the intelligence. You were sitting in the seat there of homeland security. How much of a threat was Iran to the U.S.?

12:42Jason Rezaian:So, because I read intelligence briefings every day when I was at the Department of Homeland Security and the Department of Defense, and that ended nine years ago, I know what I don't know. I paid intense attention to my intel briefings. And then if I had time, frankly, I'd go read open news sources because intelligence is your eyes and ears when you're in a national security job. Um, the way I'll respond to that is one of the things that the Trump presidency, the Trump administrations, one and two, retained from the Department of Homeland Security I led was the NTAS system, the National Threat Advisory System.

13:35Jason Rezaian:We got away from the color-coded bars. I'm sure you remember those.

13:40Yeganeh Rezaian:Sure.

13:40Jason Rezaian:And a more descriptive analysis of what Americans should be aware of, what their government is doing about it, and what they can do. If you go to the DHS website now, or you go to the NTAS website now, you get a big red letter that says, because of lapse in federal funding, we are not actively monitoring and updating this site. So Americans cannot look to their Department of Homeland Security to tell them what they need to know about any potential domestic threats, given that we are now at war with Iran.

14:22Yeganeh Rezaian:So I hear what you're saying. We don't actually know what the threat is on the homeland. I want to go to another point. Admiral Cooper said that the U.S. in the first 24 hours used twice the firepower against Iran that the U.S. military had at the start of the Iraq war. And just this morning, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth said the military campaign in Iran is increasing, not decreasing. So I have to ask you, have we learned the lessons of long drawn out wars in Iraq and Afghanistan?

14:53Jason Rezaian:No. I fear the answer is no. First, I was struck by the comment that combat operations are intensifying. The way the president characterized it, it was sort of like a one-and-done thing, where he went in, decapitated the leadership, and now it's up to the Iranian people to take their country back. That's the way he characterized it over the weekend. It seems to be something that is going to be much more drawn out. I fear that once the generation, we have to relearn the mistakes of history. We cannot nation build. Protracted engagements, boots on the ground, or you try to revolutionize a country where you try to get the citizenry of that country to to readjust their own thinking and attitude toward the United States is not really possible.

15:47Jason Rezaian:If I were in the situation room now, one of the things I would be asking of the intelligence community is, what is our assessment of the mood in Iran once we've decapitated their leadership, taken out the person who was their supreme leader since 1989, and invaded their sovereignty? Is there going to be some gigantic anti-American backlash? History would suggest the answer to that is yes.

16:13Yeganeh Rezaian:Well, let's follow up on that directly, because we know that Iran and its proxy groups are capable of sowing terror beyond their borders. We saw that happen when we had targets in Iraq, and Iraqi militants and their allies sowed plenty of terror against U.S. targets both in the U.S. and around the world. I know we don't have that red, orange, yellow threat system you mentioned anymore, but how concerned should we be about increased risks to the safety of Americans at home now?

16:45Jason Rezaian:Two answers. One, terrorist groups are not conventional armies. It is a battlefield commander in Afghanistan once told me that you have to be wary that for every terrorist you kill, you may be inspiring two more. So that's one dynamic here. When I was in office and we faced a heightened security situation, I would put out an NTASH report describing the threat, describing what we're doing, and describing what Americans themselves can do. If you see something, say something. Terrorist threats can be broken into three categories. There's terrorist-directed attacks, directing large-scale attacks on the homeland like 9-11 or the attempted shoe bomber or the attempted underwear bomber or the attempted UPS package plot.

17:41Jason Rezaian:I'm sure you remember those. And then there are things called terrorist inspired attacks where someone already living in the United States is inspired by a call from Hezbollah or Hamas or some other terrorist organization to commit an act of terrorism here in the United States.

18:01Yeganeh Rezaian:So you may be thinking of the situation in Austin, Texas, where a man wearing a T-shirt that said property of Allah launched a shooting.

18:11Jason Rezaian:Exactly. Or San Bernardino 10 years ago, Paris Nightclub in Florida. There's a string of those. Or the lone wolf, someone who doesn't particularly follow the ideology of a terrorist group, but is deranged, dangerous, and wants to commit mass destruction. Unfortunately, we see those on a random basis, and there's no real trend line there. And so we have to be wary of all of it. I have to believe that there is a heightened threat environment of some sort, given what we've done in Iran. But again, I don't read daily intel reports, but I imagine that our government owes us a better, more coherent, clearer explanation of exactly what we in the homeland should be concerned about.

19:06Yeganeh Rezaian:All right.