Lizzo reclaims sexist insult on new album

0:01WBUR Podcasts, Boston. I'm young, I'm sexy, I'm turnt, I'm nobody's mama. So I'm going to go outside and have fun. Lizzo is back, and on her new album she says she's not apologizing for who she is.

0:30It's Friday, June 12th, and this is Here and Now, Anytime from NPR and WVOR. I'm Chris Bentley. Today on the show...

0:47Some new music for your summer playlists. And why you shouldn't let anyone else tell you what your song of the summer is. It feels like it's gotten harder and harder to crown a song of the summer with every passing year. Because, yeah, music fans are so fragmented and tastes and trends are just so unpredictable. But first, for your consideration, Lizzo, a.k.a. Melissa Vivian Jefferson, a.k.a. the Minneapolis flautist turned pop star, is back with a new album, her first studio LP in four years. And she joined us to talk about it with Robin Young. The title is, we can't say, because public radio.

1:29So let's just say it rhymes with Rich, and it will probably make her more so. Well, I'm a b****, I'm a lover, I'm a child, I'm a mother, I'm a sinner, I'm a saint. I do not feel ashamed. I'm a mess, I'm a queen. And everything between you know you wouldn't want it any other way. Lizzo, Melissa, welcome back. And start with that word. You know, you're not the first person to claim it. Missy Elliott is someone who took ownership of it in the late 1990s. What does it mean to you? It was like a stamp in time. This word that was used to degrade women. And it was such a beautiful thing when Black women started to reclaim it and transformed it.

2:14And I thought it was a powerful message to have a part of my narrative to be like, people can throw words at you. Own it. The best way to not be destroyed by someone else's vitriol is by taking it and putting it on like a super suit or an armor. Well, something maybe you've needed. Now, I'm going to be as brief as I can about your ongoing legal issues with your backup dancers. I know you can't say much. See, this is a legal situation. But you have said claims of harassment are absolutely not true. You're looking forward to actually testifying if there's any kind of trial. So comment in any way you want.

2:52But I'm thinking that people might be saying maybe you're saying something about those legal issues with this title. It's up to people's interpretation. I think there's a lot that I have to reclaim right now. I spent a lot of time out of the public eye. And I think people formed a lot of opinions about me. And coming back, claiming that and just owning the parts of myself that sometimes are a little bit more intense or, you know, bitchier, I think is like important for me. Well, this is, I guess, what I'm getting to because very often women who take control of their lives, and in this case, you are really firmly in control of your career, of your music, of how everything works on the stage.

3:36And sometimes that strength in a woman is interpreted as being the B word. Yeah, I agree. I think people don't know how hard I work. And maybe people have some prejudices about me, you know, being a fat black woman. They probably don't think that I'm working as hard as I'm working, which whatever. But I'm 24-7. And I think that some of the things that have been said about me, you know, if a man was running his show the way he was running his show, I don't think anyone else would bat an eye. And I also think that, like, I've had this happy-go-lucky, positive girl persona put on me. And I don't think I've been allowed to have flaws or depth.

4:22And I think that, like, what I'm doing now is adding a little bit of more texture to the way people perceive me. Yeah. Well, and it is your music. And it's great, by the way. This album is just great. defiantly so on songs like That Girl, lots of R's. And there's a lot of, you know, dissing of your body throughout the song, but then you end on a high note. Let's listen. I thank God for this big back, beautiful silhouette. Shake and make an impact, click, clack, bet you won't forget. Gotta represent Big Girl at the Met. Trying to break my confidence and even make a dent. Big girl at the Met, you did shut down the red carpet when you walked at the Met in 2022.

5:08This is the big Met gala. Screaming and yelling fans went absolutely quiet when you stopped and began playing your golden flute. That's what you're referencing there? Yeah, I also, you know, the representation of being the first plus size black girl to do the carpet, I think was important. And I wear that with a badge of honor. I think I was just putting that there to be like, hey, check the stat. You know, I think people forget how iconic I am. Well, what does that mean for you, those kinds of cultural accomplishments? You have called yourself fat. You have reclaimed that before the B word. You've been disparaged by haters, you know, online.

5:53And then when you lost some weight, you were criticized for being hypocritical. It just feels like, you know, a B word can't win. You know, where are you now? I realized that I can win because winning isn't determined by anyone else's merit, but my own. I was concerned about how fans would respond to my body changing, which is why I was very open about the entire process. If you go on my social media, you will see it documented from day one where I said, I'm going to go on an intentional weight release journey. Because there are a lot of people who empowered themselves and had an empowering relationship with their body because of me and because of what I represented.

6:40Yeah. So you didn't want to send a message to people that their body wasn't any good just because you had chosen to lose some weight. And you also told us you've recently gained some back, and you feel good about that. So wait is obviously a work in progress. But you just said you wanted to be considerate of your fans, but not too nice. Let's hear a little bit of too nice. I've been too nice, too nice. Yeah, I've been too nice, too nice. All that's stopping tonight, tonight, tonight.

7:28That's probably one of the songs I debated putting on the album because it was very personal. I am a serial people pleaser. I grew up the baby of the family, the peacemaker. I was the friend that had the car that would drive all my friends everywhere they wanted to go. I would pay for movie tickets, food. Wait, did you not think you were enough? Damn. No, I think that it comes from feeling inadequate. Feeling like, oh, my personality is annoying. You wouldn't want to be friends with me. But this is what I can offer. And I think that that carried on well into my adulthood. And every person who I was friends with, I was like, you need to benefit off of me somehow.

8:26That was my value to people. And I got used. I did. I got used. And it was an extremely painful, abusive friendship. And I wrote a song about it. There you go. Well, let's listen to another song. Whose hair is this?

9:13And this is, it's heartbreaking. It's this, you know, whose hair is this? And this gorgeous voice and ballad. And then there's the punchline at the end. But I ain't been, oh, I did have red hair last week. Where did this song come from? I wrote Whose Hair Is This last year in the fall of 2025. And it was important to me because I played a private show. And I sang because I love you.

10:12It tore the house down, like standing ovation. And I said, oh, I dropped the mic afterwards, like bink. And I was like, oh, I need to write another one of these. I'm crying. I used a real experience. One of my wig, I found one of my wig hairs, but I didn't. And I was like, wait a minute, because I had dyed my hair red all fall. And so I was like, what is this brown curly hair? And I took it home and did forensics, as every woman does. And I found one of the wigs that I would wear all the time. It was a casual wig. And the hair matched, and I was so embarrassed. And I was talking about it in the studio.

10:54And, of course, Ricky Reed was like, that's a great lyric. It's a great lyric. But can I ask you about something else you just said there, which is, you know, you perform these ballads, and it's like standing ovations at the Blue Note. I feel you could sell out stadiums, you know, just you with the mic with your flute. Did you ever think of maybe doing really big shows with you just belting it out? I think about that often. I think that that's why I did the Blue Note. I think the Blue Note was my opportunity to stand at Park and Bark, as I'd say. There was no room on the stage to dance and to move around.

11:27And it was about my voice and it was about my flute playing. I have plenty of time in my career to have a performance with a piano and a microphone. I'm young. I'm sexy. I'm turnt. I'm nobody's mama. So I'm going to go outside and have fun. I love the turnt. One, two, three, four. Look, we're going to go out on a high note. Happy, happy to be. Thank you so much. Singer, songwriter, flautist Lizzo. Her new album is... Bitch! Thank you.

12:27Every year.

12:57Rollonlife.com slash NPR. There's some mostly online discourse about the song of the summer, because why not? Of course, there is no criteria for what that really means. It's got to be a hit, I guess. But as they say, it's more of a vibe. Whether or not they're worthy of that title in your mind, we asked Miguel Perez of NPR's World Cafe to recommend some pop songs for our summer playlists. And he told Indira Lakshmanan, he's got an easy first answer. Okay, so this first song is, in my humble opinion, already the song of the summer. I have already been playing it on repeat for months now. It's two of the year's biggest breakout stars.

13:41It's Sarah Larson featuring Pink Pantheris. It's Midnight Sun, The Girls Trip, remix.

14:01So for context, Zara is Swedish. She's a Swedish pop star. And in the song, she's referring to the summer nights in Scandinavia where the sun is up 24-7. So, of course, it's just perfect for Song of the Summer. You know, and a lot of the days, nowadays, a lot of this Song of the Summer discourse is happening online. You know, it's viral moments, it's memes, it's TikTok dances. is, you know, think of the lime green rat summer of 2024. So Zara's Midnight Sun album rollout has been kind of the closest thing we've had to something like that this year. She's got this hyper colorful summery vibe that feels very reminiscent of the early 2000s.

14:43Tons of viral moments from old songs of hers from this album and clips from her insanely popular tour. So So this one to me feels like already feels like Song of the Summer. All right. Well, one thing that's been inescapable in the last couple of years is the rise of indie folk pop singer Noah Kahn. And you think his song Porchlight could be the song of the summer.

15:21Well, I mean, that song, the end of that chorus there is heartbroken each morning when it's me that turns it off, meaning the porch light. I mean, this is a pretty sad song. So why is this on your list as a summer, as a song of the summer? You know, you're you're absolutely right. It is much more somber. It's definitely wistful. But, you know, summer isn't all fun and games. This to me, this is not the end of summer. summer has to come to an end and i feel like there there is definitely a song out there that can sort of capture that part of it you know i must admit i am a recent noah khan convert i have just started listening to his new album um it's called the great divide but this record is already a hit a number one chart debut fans are loving it critics are loving it and he made this out this new album in vermont and in upstate new york and you can you can hear that in the music you know I'm imagining watching the fireflies on the back porch and it's starting to get a little chilly.

16:21It's definitely a different side of the summer season, but I think it captures a very specific moment, you know, toward the end. Well, maybe the vibe that it's catching, because I'm hearing, you know, you're a ghost, you're a ghost. You know, maybe it's the ghost of summer at the end. And the only sadness and somberness I get from summer is when it's over. So otherwise I refuse to be sad in the summer, especially in Boston. I'm right there with you. Well, you are bringing us right back to the dance floor with your third choice. It's a track called Dance by an artist called Slater, who spells Slater with three Ys.

17:02Tell us about this song. Let's listen.

17:18All right. So what is that song about and why are you picking it as a viral summer song? You know, we left the cabin and we headed right back into the club. Like so this like you mentioned up top, this is Slater. And Slater is a pop musician from from St. Louis who has been grinding for over a decade. So I'm just really happy that she's having sort of a big moment this year. And the song Dance is from her latest album, Worst Girl in America. It's got some new metal in there, some industrial influence. It sounds a little bit different from a lot of the pop music that is coming out right now. And I feel like that often can help a song stand out and stick in people's minds.

18:02And there's been a lot of critical acclaim for this record, especially after a really, really strong Coachella performance. There are videos out there that people have just gravitated to. And that's the kind of thing that can really propel an artist or a song into the stratosphere. If you remember all of those incredible videos of Chapel Rhone a couple years ago, performing at these huge festivals with huge crowds. That's what helped her break through. and a lot of her songs, I think, are contenders for songs of summer's past. So I feel like Slater is sort of going down a similar path right now.

18:43All right, Miguel, you started us off by reminding us about 2024 being Brat Summer with Charlie XCX's big hit and the green everywhere that was equated with that album. So I want another girl pick. Give me another girl song, fun, you know, like party girl song for the summer. Yes, this is this is my like my wild card pick. This one's like perfect for for backyard barbecues. This is Carly Girl with the song Right Back.

19:29Watch this. Why don't you hit me like that? Ay, I'm gonna give it right back. Ay, I'm gonna give it right back, back, back, back, back. Why don't you hit me like that? Ay, I'm gonna give it right back. Ay, I'm gonna give it right back, back, back, back, back, back, back, back, back. For some context, Carly was a contestant on a talent competition reality show in 2023 called the Debut Dream Academy. and a lot of these contestants are now starting to put out their own projects, their own singles and some of them are garnering lots of attention. Earlier this year, Cat's Eye, who is the girl group who eventually won that competition, they were just nominated for a few Grammy Awards.

20:13I remember and I saw them perform at the Grammys this year. Yeah, they were part of like the best new artist sort of lineup. So this is a new generation of performers that the public might not be super familiar with yet, but I think that they will be household names in just a few years. And Carly, with this song in particular, I think is going to be part of that conversation. Now tell us, where is Carly Girl from? Yeah, so Carly is of Japanese and Korean descent, and she was born in Honolulu in Hawaii. and you can kind of hear some of that energy in Right Back for sure. A little bit of that beach vibe.

20:53I love it. Exactly. All right. Well, at the end of the day, isn't the idea of a song of the summer subjective? I mean, your song of the summer might not be my song of the summer or some listener's song of the summer. So how do you crown one song? Is it just about what's ubiquitous and what gives us the biggest earworm? you're 100 right it it feels like it's gotten harder and harder to crown a song of the summer with every passing year because yeah music fans are are so fragmented and tastes and trends are just so unpredictable um and i think part of the fun is is sort of like the debate you know like i think it's this song you think it's that song and uh the discourse around it i think is is ultimately the more interesting part than whatever we, if we can collectively decide, you know, this is the song of the summer.

21:46It's fun to look back and look at these, you know, big mega hits and kind of remember them. Well, we will see how it goes, whether your predictions came true. Yeah, we can reconvene after Labor Day. Absolutely. That's when I'm going to be sad because summer will be over. Miguel Perez of NPR's World Cafe. Thank you so much for joining us as always. Thank you, Indira. It's always a good time.

22:22Before we go, I just had to share a bit of this conversation we had on the show this week. Have you ever heard of lorem ipsum? If you've ever done page design or had to fill space with dummy text, you probably have. I remember it from my time on the college paper doing layout before we went to print. The point of lorem ipsum is that it's English-looking enough, but obviously nonsense, so people don't get distracted by the meaning of the text. But where did it come from? Emily Zhang got to the bottom of it for her YouTube science channel, Rabbit Hole, And she shared what she found in this conversation with Indira.

23:01So let's back this up. This lorem ipsum text sounds like Latin, but kind of pig Latin. And many designers assumed that it was basically meaningless drivel until you found this classics professor, Richard McClintock, at Hampton Sydney College. And you got him to tell you where he found the text and what it was based on. I was looking at it one day and realized it didn't look as though it was entirely gibberish. There was this unusual word, conceptator. Do you have like an English word analogy? Like how rare is it? It's the kind of word that you would put on an SAT exam. Like punctilious. That sort of thing, yes ma 'am.

23:41I looked it up in the dictionary. To pursue eagerly, to strive after, endeavor to gain.

23:56Wow. Okay. So this original text actually is from one of the most famous ancient Roman writers, Cicero. Why hadn't anyone made that connection before? This book is probably one of his least notable works ever. Richard actually told me after the video, he said he did his thesis on Cicero, and he had still never even heard of this book. Eventually, at Letraset, this is a company that creates dry transfer paper, almost like stickers you can think of, and you would rub it down onto a piece of paper and then get your perfect font letters all lined up. And Letraset is the first place you can find lorem ipsum appear anywhere, and that's in 1966 with a sheet of Letraset that is called Body Type.

24:39Well, a fun element is that You actually track how the Letraset text made its way into early Pagemaker software in the 1980s. You track down an employee from that company. Tell us what she told you. So Laura Perry worked at Aldous Pagemaker as one of their first employees. She was a designer there. And she remembered that when she worked at newspapers back in the day, they would use Letraset to fill in that body text. And she remembered seeing Laura Mipsum there. So one afternoon, she just types it as fast as she can and purposely actually makes typos because she doesn't want it to match exactly for copyright infringement.

25:16And so she's just messing it up on purpose. And that ends up going into PageMaker and becoming popularized. Modern lorem ipsum is born. Yes. All right. Well, it struck me that your research into Lorem Ipsum was also a story about how minor decisions and chance can snowball into something that becomes ubiquitous and indelible on our consciousness as humans. What was your biggest takeaway from your reporting? I would say it was that even in our efforts to create totally meaningless text, every single person who touched that text ended up leaving a little bit of their mark on it. It's impossible for us to actually create something that doesn't have meaning.

25:56I think humans love to see meaning in everything, and we find it everywhere. And we preserve it for others to find it too.

26:04There is a lot more to that conversation, and you can listen to it at hereandnow.org, including Emily Zhang's favorite example of this dummy text, lorem ipsum, ending up in print, and what the emergence of AI-generated writing means for the world's most famous filler text. hereandnow.org, and check out Emily Zhang's YouTube channel, Rabbit Hole, for more from her. But that's it for the show today. Here and Now Anytime comes from NPR in WVU, our Boston. Today's stories were produced by Emiko Tamagawa, Ashley Locke, and James Mastro-Marino. Our editors were Todd Munt, Micaela Rodriguez, Michael Scotto, and Kat Welch.