What hit show ‘Pluribus’ says about society and individuality

0:00Support for Here and Now Anytime comes from MathWorks, creator of MATLAB and Simulink software for technical computing and model-based design. MathWorks, accelerating the pace of discovery in engineering. MathWorks. dot com. WBUR Podcasts. Boston. You can't be scrolling on your phone while you're watching the show. You have to be present for it. Everyone can't stop talking about Apple TV's new hit show, Pluribus.

0:41It's Tuesday, December 30th, and this is Here and Now Anytime from NPR and WBUR Boston. I'm Shiko Thewuri. Today on the show, the Knives Out franchise continues with Wake Up Dead Man. Yes, there is a murder, but for creator, writer, and director Ryan Johnson, it's a work of introspection. To see if I could create a character in Father Judd that really spoke to the things I was kind of yearning for in my upbringing as a Christian, and see if I could do that in the context of a big, broad, entertaining, fun murder mystery. But first, Apple TV hit the lottery with its latest science fiction show called Pluribus.

1:25In just its first season, it's already the most watched show in the streaming platform's history. Pluribus envisions a present-day world in which a hive mind links people's thoughts and choices in the name of collective good. The world is peaceful, but there is no free will or individual difference. Rest assured, Carol, we will figure out what makes you different. Figure it out. Why? So we can fix it. So you can join us. Pluribus was created by Vince Gilligan, the genius behind another hit show, Breaking Bad. There are about as many theories about what Pluribus is trying to say about our society as there are viewers.

2:07Carolina Widra plays Zoja, or as the main character Carol calls her at first, the pirate lady. She is, in effect, Carol's liaison to the larger hive mind. And before we go any further, we just got to let you know that there are spoilers ahead. Widra begins her conversation with Indira Lakshmanan by explaining what drew her to this role. Oh, yes. I always love sci-fi. And I love, is it a genre psychological sci-fi? Because I call it psychological sci-fi, where... Sure. It questions humans and when they're put in a certain situation, what it does to them. Twilight Zone, I was a fan of Twilight Zone.

2:45And so, yes, I do enjoy sci-fi because it brings existential questions and puts them in situations of who would we be if that happened. I think the Twilight Zone comparison is actually a great comparison. And the character that you play, I think, has to be really challenging as an actor because you have become part of this hive mind, meaning you share all the knowledge of everyone on Earth after the consciousness of all humans becomes connected. So your character can fly a plane. She can perform open heart surgery. She can solve a math problem at the speed of a calculator. That's correct. Here's a clip of you meeting the main character, Carol, played by Ray Sehorne, who listeners might know as Kim Wexler from Better Call Saul.

3:30Let's listen to your character and her first encounter in episode two. Who are you? Someone we thought you might like. Not so much. No. Sorry about that, Carol. Regardless, you are on the verge of heat exhaustion. And that's the opinion of every medical doctor on Earth. So how did you approach playing a character like this who's part of this collective and has no autonomy but is happy about it? You know, I actually, I love to do dream work for characters. I'm a big dreamer. I'm a huge fan of Carl Jung. And I use dreams to get into the subconscious of the character. And so that was one of the things that I did for this character.

4:10And I had to do a lot of physical work as far as relaxation to the body. These people are not robots. They are human beings that don't experience anger. They have a memory of anger. They don't experience suffering. So to create all that, I had to do a lot of meditation. And as far as we did a lot of rehearsals, because these people have muscle memory of everything that they perform, they're the best at. So the scene where I get on C-130, it needs to be effortless as if she's done it millions of times before. So we did a lot of rehearsals. I talked to the pilots of that plane for a whole day and I actually got to taxi the C-130, which is completely wild to me at the Albuquerque airport.

5:02It's one of those things where I'll never get to do again in my life. So it's pretty special. And so we did a lot of rehearsals and talking to Vince and finding that sweet spot. They're happy, but it goes more than just happy. They're content. Right. I was struck because viewers have really different takes on what the hive mind represents in Pluribus. I instinctively felt the creators were comparing the hive mind to artificial intelligence and the seemingly infinite knowledge on the Internet that lets us pretend to be instant experts in anything, but which also strips us of our individuality by homogenizing information and thought.

5:39How do you see the show in terms of the joining of all of humanity, except for Carol and a few others? How do you interpret that unified consciousness and behavior? Oh, it definitely brings up the conversation of AI. When Vince wrote this, actually, AI wasn't in the mainstream. I think he was ahead of his time of where things are today. The hive mind to me also represents actually for me unconditional love. Interesting. Because there's so much tolerance and there's so much goodness and there's no judgment or prejudice. There's a part of me that wishes we lived in a world like that. I would hope that we could live in a world like that with everything that's going on in the world today.

6:24That's fascinating. These people are really good. It's fascinating to hear you say that because I think that most viewers are sort of put in the position of Carol where they look at this in horror that there's no individuality. But your character Zoja says, no, the world is so much better now. There's no war. There's no suffering. And it's interesting that you as an actor are also taking in that positive view that maybe this is a utopia and not a dystopia. Well, this is the tricky thing. It's, we've had all these conversations on set or bring up all these conversations and it's not so black and white.

7:03So yes, part of me would want that work because I do think it's utopian, but then losing individuality as far as not being surprised ever again. you know I love theater so going to a theater and seeing a play done for the first time and how going on that journey you'll never be able to experience that in this world or seeing somebody's art for the first time do you know what I mean that's been created you'll never be surprised again your jokes will never be the same you won't laugh the same way so to give that up will be really really hard but then you go at a cost the opposite of that look at the world that you would live in, right?

7:42People actually care about our planet. They live by a certain code, and they really cared about not killing anyone and animals. And they won't even pick an apple off a tree, which is fascinating. In episode four, Carol gets her hands on a kind of truth serum, and she ambushes your character, Zosia, grilling you about the truth behind an alien takeover. Let's listen. Zosia, how do I end this thing? You already told me it's possible. we no yes yes no yes no you did you pretty much did so the hard part's over right now all you have to do is tell me how to put things back the way they used to be come on come on Zosia is it making you sad not giving me what I want is this making you sad don't be sad tell me what I want to know This was so traumatic, this scene.

8:41And your character ends up passing out from the emotional toil of not wanting to answer the question, what was it like for you performing this scene? the sadness that we're experiencing in that scene is that we feel destroyed inside that we can't make her happy and she's she will do anything she would go to any length not to experience this gift that we want to give her and that's what makes this world go into tears and everyone is crying by she you mean carol that every the rest of the world zoja's in tears the rest of the world is in tears because... The rest of the world's... Correct, yes. The rest of the world is in tears.

9:25And also because she comes very close to finding out the truth. Science fiction writers often grapple with real-life threats. Orwell's 1984 is famously about totalitarianism, the loss of individual freedom. Aldous Huxley's Brave New World is about the dangers of technological advancement. What do you think Pluribus is trying to warn us about? Hmm. I mean, there's a part of the AI, the conformity of AI. I think definitely there's an element of that, of just people being worker bees, just one mind, just conformity and just dying off individuality. For me, I would imagine if I was an audience watching that, I think that's what I would probably take out of that.

10:11Well, your show is actually the most watched season of television in Apple TV's history. Why do you think it's resonating so much with audiences? By the way, we're so grateful that people are loving this show so much because it was such a label of love. I love it. I can't wait every week. I'm like literally practically setting my clock to watch it every week. Oh, that's that's really thank you so much, because we had so much fun working on this and to see people really enjoying it. It's just truly like we're so grateful. We're so in awe. We can't believe it. I think that the show resonates with people because I believe that the show makes people lean in and listen and they cannot numb out.

10:54You can't be scrolling on your phone while you're watching the show. You have to be present for it. And it starts conversations for people about the theories of what they experience, what it means to them or whatever's going on in their life, what it hits in their heart and soul, the show, what it represents. I think that's why people are enjoying it. And it's original. You've never seen anything like it on TV. And you haven't seen Xochitl's character like this on TV. And I think people crave original programming, something that's just different. Carolina Weidra is one of the stars of the new Apple TV science fiction series, Pluribus.

11:34Thanks so much for joining us, Carolina. Thank you so much. Thank you.

11:46Coming up next... Let us begin with Wix's murder. A sharp conversation with the director of the new Knives Out film after the break.

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12:50It feels like I looked up and suddenly everyone I knew was raving about the new Knives Out movie, now out on Netflix. Like the two films that preceded it, the new one, Wake Up Dead Man, A Knives Out Mystery, is an intricate murder mystery with an all-star cast headed by Daniel Craig as the private detective Benoit Blanc. Let us begin with Wicks' murder. Right here, on Good Friday, the impossible crime. But Wake Up, Dead Man is also a deeply felt exploration of faith. Josh O 'Connor plays Father Judd, a Catholic priest looking to leave behind his violent past as a boxer who killed a man in the ring.

13:31But after Father Judd loses his temper and punches a deacon, which is actually a very funny moment, comes a deeply serious moment. Father Judd begging for a second chance. I just want to be a good priest. Show broken people like me the forgiveness and love of Christ. The world needs that so bad.

13:53You give me one more shot and I promise I'll do that. Father Judd gets that shot, sent to upstate New York to assist a charismatic priest named Wicks. But charismatic soon becomes insanely fire and brimstone and right wing. Pastor Judd ends up being the prime suspect in the murder of Monsignor Wicks. Ryan Johnson is the creator of the Knives Out series and writer, director, and producer of Wake Up Dead Man. Ryan, congratulations. Thanks, Robin. Appreciate it. And also joining us is Ryan's cousin and frequent collaborator, composer Nathan Johnson, who wrote the score for Wake Up Dead Man. Nathan, congratulations to you as well, because we understand you're on the shortlist for a Best Score Oscar nomination for this film.

14:36Welcome to you as well. Thanks, Robin. Well, and both of you, let's start with the faith part, because both of you were raised in an evangelical Christian household. And Ryan, you've spoken about leaving that. So can we interpret this film as sort of a recounting of your struggle with faith? I guess so. It's also, for me, looking back on the things that I really valued about my time as a Christian, as much as there is in the movie that is kind of struggling with some of the things that I struggled with. A bigger part of it for me is kind of looking at the world right now today and kind of pining for some of the best stuff that I got out of Christianity from when I was a Christian.

15:16And I think that's reflected in some ways Benoit Blanc's take on religion and Father Judd's take on religion. Those two things are two parts of myself that are in constant conversation. Let's take Daniel Craig's character, Benoit Blanc. Benoit said. He says it. And he is a devout atheist. Let's listen. It's built upon the empty promise of a child's fairy tale filled with malevolence and misogyny and homophobia. And it's justified untold acts of violence and cruelty while all the while and still harden its own shameful acts. But then you give us Father Judd, violence in his past, but this compassionate spirit, which really feels Christ-like.

16:00Yeah. And again, that's kind of what, for me, part of sort of the therapy of this was to see if I could create a character in Father Judd that really spoke to the things I was kind of yearning for in my upbringing as a Christian. And see if I could do that in the context of, I hasten to say, a big, broad, entertaining, fun murder mystery. Yeah. And Nathan, I want to bring you in, grew up in the same faith, and I'm assuming you left as well. Yeah. Yeah. Can you explain what was it that made you leave? Honestly, for me, part of it was going to college and doing biblical studies. And as I began to dig into it for myself, I think that was part of my doorway out of it.

16:46At the same time, I think that in this movie, everyone reflected in it. I see shards of each of those characters that we grew up with all throughout it. Well, let's start with the sharpest shard, which is perhaps Monsignor Wicks. This is the firebrand priest played by Josh Brolin. He just relishes people getting up and leaving the pews because he's shaming them so much. He hates gay people, hates single mothers. So let's listen to a little of his sermon where he's chasing a single mother and her small child out of the pews. Tell that lie. Have that child out of wedlock. satisfy your selfish heart.

17:30Selfish. Yes. I mean, is that, Ryan, out of, I mean, is that something you heard? It's a distillation of a cloud of stuff that was present, I would say, as one element of the church as we grew up in it. I would not say that we went to church and heard just that. I don't think we would have stuck around. And I would say it's not so much about hating one group or another, It's about an us against them mentality. And I think that is the broader kind of thing that Nathan and I both kind of had a reaction to the notion of speaking of Christianity in the terms of war, speaking of it in terms of us against them and about, you know, being under attack from the world outside and raising up walls, which is kind of the opposite of the things that Christ actually taught.

18:18And so Wix is in opposition to Judd's viewpoint, which is let's open our arms. Let's go to people where they're at. Let's meet people who have need in their life and let's meet them at that level. Well, there's one moment where Pastor Judd tries to do that. He's ministering to a parishioner who's also a very conservative, failed candidate for public office. This is where faith crosses over into politics. Pastor Judd is trying to talk to him about, you know, how he can maybe better himself. Here's that failed candidate for public office. I tried everything. Believe me, I hammered the race thing.

18:51I hammer the gender thing, the trans thing, the border thing, the homeless thing, the war thing, the election thing, the abortion thing, the climate thing. The thing about induction stoves, Israel, library books, vaccines, pronouns, AK-47, socialism, BLM, CRT, the CDC, DEI, 5G, everything. 5G. It was just such a perfect distillation of a certain platform. and at the end when Pastor Judge says, maybe we get back to basics and the character says, oh, you mean show them something they hate and then make them afraid it's going to take away something they love? It's just, Ryan. For me, that whole thing reflects not even so much just kind of pointing the finger at one platform.

19:38For me, the real humor of that scene is just how exhausted all of us are no matter what side of the platform we're on about the barrage of all of these hot button issues being cynically used by people in order to push our buttons. Well, and I think it also taps into this idea of when we feel like we're under siege, we can essentially justify any number of things against the opposition. And I think the thing that to me is so beautiful and that really got me about this movie is in Father Judd's character, there's such a generosity and a humility and an open arms for one's enemies. And I long to see more of that in the world today.

20:23That's Nathan Johnson, again, the collaborator with Ryan Johnson, the creator of the Knives Out series. We're talking about the new film, Wake Up, Dead Man. And Nathan, as we said, people are raving about your music as well. the score can make us feel the way a film's creators want us to feel. And in this case, we have a whole cast of characters. We're not sure who's the good guy, who's the bad guy. How do you try to be careful with the music with those characters? I think the thing that Ryan and I talk about from the very beginning is we're not trying to do anything crazy clever with the music.

20:58We're actually just trying to join the characters in the most honest way possible. On the other hand, because this is a movie set in a church and we grew up in it, we had a real broad palette to play with. And our approach was using certain instruments that are common in the church, but maybe playing them in a different way. Specifically with the Wicks character. This is the Brimstone priest. Yeah, anytime he's in the pulpit preaching, we're doing a really tricky mathematical thing where I'm having the orchestra play in two different time signatures and two different tempos. And they're mathematically related, but the groove feels really uncomfortable and really off.

21:43And for me, this sort of was a musical way to evoke what it feels like when someone in power is using a platform to tell you things that are a certain way. And then you look around yourself and you realize that's not the way that I see the world is.

22:19Some of the score from the music Wake Up, Dead Man, and Knives Out Story. Ryan Johnson, I want to go back to you just for a little bit here. So there's obviously your faith, and you're exploring all aspects of faith in the film, but also there's your obvious love of mystery. The plot revolves around a real-life writer, John Dixon Carr, the king of the locked room mystery. Just tell us a little bit about his influence on you. He specialized in this very specific little subgenre of the whodunit, which is the locked room mystery or the impossible crime. And these are, in essence, little puzzles where, for instance, the most basic version is a guy walks into a room with no other entrances and exits and he locks the door behind him.

23:04And then you hear a thud and they break the door down and he's lying there like with a knife in his back. How is that possible? And so it's a really fun little subset of the genre that's very rarely done on the big screen, I think, because it can be tricky. But we took a shot at it, and I feel pretty proud of how we were able to kind of make one work. Well, you succeeded. I had no idea. I couldn't. We got you. I had no idea. What you're doing has a thing. Can you name that thing? What is the thing that makes the knives out? I hope if it boils down to it, it's fun. I mean, honestly, that's the essence of what I'm reaching for.

23:45My memories, not only growing up reading Agatha Christie, but as a kid with my family, watching those early adaptations, watching Peter Ustinov in Death on the Nile or Albert Finney in Murder on the Orient Express. They're great mysteries. They're all star cast and they are just a fun, fun ride. And that's kind of where all of this stems from. Plus some high drama. I mean, it's in places, not for the faint of heart. I wondered if there was an homage to the bad seed in one scene when a small child speaks to... Yeah, there absolutely is. Not to be too spoilery, but that's a very good catch, yes.

24:25Excellent. Ryan Johnson, creator of the Knives Out series, writer, director, and producer of the Wake Up Dead Man, latest film in that series. and also his cousin and collaborator, composer Nathan Johnson, who wrote The Score, which is shortlisted for a Best Score Oscar nomination. Nathan, best of luck to you and congratulations to you both and thank you. Thank you so much, Robin. Thanks, Robin.

25:09Thank you.

25:40Before we go, we want to take a moment to remember some of the extraordinary people we lost this year. NPR's Netta Ulibi reminds us of the people who touched us through their achievements in music, film, and art, including this phenomenal musician who died in February.

26:03I'm dead in my whole life when this world's killing me.