Lakwena Maciver: the renowned artist on colour, creativity, criticism and connection

0:03Hi, welcome to Homing In. I'm Matt Gibbard, co-founder of The Modern House. Today's guest is the wonderful Laquena McIver. Laquena is an artist whose work has exploded out of the Instagram generation. She uses bright colours and patterns inspired by her African heritage and bold written slogans. Given that her work is so positive and uplifting, I was really interested to find out that she's a natural pessimist with a very tough inner critic. So the words that appear in her art, which say things like do better and raise your hopes, are actually messages to herself. She kindly invited us to her house in East London to record this episode and I really enjoyed finding out more about her home life.

0:49She reveals that she didn't really fit in anywhere as a child, so she was one of the only black kids at her school and at home she was an introvert in a household of extroverts. But she found drawing, which she describes as a process of empowerment and the act of putting pencil to paper helped her make sense of everything she was experiencing. We discuss the refurb she's done on her house and how she's had to learn to compromise with her husband, especially when it comes to carpets. We talk about the importance of taking the time to reflect on your successes, why she'd secretly like to live in a hut in Uganda and lots, lots more as well.

1:32So here it is, and I very much hope you enjoy it. Hi Laquena. Hi. Thanks so much for being on the podcast and thanks for letting us into your wonderful home that you've recently refurbed. So we'll come on to that. But I'd like to start at the beginning. Where are you from originally? You're a Londoner? Yeah. I mean, I was born in Enfield, raised mainly in South London in Bromley, spent a little bit of time in East Africa, and now lived here in Hackney for about 13 years. We moved around a lot because of my dad's job. He was in and out of jobs a lot. Okay. So we would go with him, I think, wherever he was working.

2:13And he also, some of his jobs were abroad, so we sometimes went with him there. I think it's a funny journey because basically, I was born here. Then we went to Ethiopia when I was six to eight. I was in Ethiopia. Then I came back here when I was eight. And I think there was a real kind of culture shock because Ethiopia had been this really, it was quite a defining place for me. And it had been warm and sunny, just on a practical level. But also we'd had quite a privileged lifestyle. And also I blended in. So people assumed I was Ethiopian. Then I came here to Bromley, which at the time was predominantly white and it was obviously gray and cold because of the weather generally and so I think there was quite a shock for me like getting used to life here and so for a long time that felt like home Ethiopia felt like home and I think there was quite also because like I said my dad was in and out of jobs so we thought we were going to go back but we never did so I think there was this sense of I think you know a therapist would probably say there was like a you know this kind of I didn't have closure yeah so for a long time I felt like I this was not my home London and I felt like that was my home that's where I felt I belonged I didn't feel I belonged here yeah for a long long time that was kind of my narrative in my head was I want to go back home but I think then I'd been here so long and I think I eventually kind of started to feel like this was my home but it took years I find it so fascinating this idea of belonging and being attached to a place of some sort because I'm sure you've heard of attachment in terms of a child attaching to its caregiver and its mother and so on yeah but we also attach to the places that we grew up in as well yeah and actually it can be psychologically quite difficult for a child to move around quite a lot so do you do you feel like there are any kind of sort of lasting effects of that peripatetic upbringing yeah I think so I always wonder because sometimes I meet people actually in now in adult life I've sometimes met people who are like their dads worked for the UN and they lived you know they stayed in Africa and I sometimes wonder what my life would have been like if I'd stayed but instead it was kind of broken and we came here and kind of yeah it was a different completely different trajectory I think it definitely had an impact on me definitely when I was younger the traveling broadened my horizons to just the size of the world and I think also um exposed me to things that I wouldn't have been exposed to here you know at the time we were in Ethiopia actually there was a lot of I think it was a time of a famine there was also a coup There were a couple of coups.

5:08So we were kind of evacuated at times, in and out. There were soldiers everywhere, a lot of poverty. So I think seeing that was obviously had an impact on me. Yeah, I think the lasting impact is that it has taken me just a long time to feel like I belong here. But I think I finally do feel that. And I think I'm also aware that a lot of people feel like they don't belong for various reasons. and the older I get the more I realize that I think we sometimes assume that it's just us who feel marginalized or like we don't necessarily fit in or you know but I think the older I get the more I realize lots of people feel that sense of outsiderness you know so that's that's something I've learned that's so interesting so so for someone that hasn't managed to achieve that sense of belonging how have you done it is it just time no I mean I wouldn't I definitely don't think I'm not like the um model you know belonging person because I still feel that at times yeah you know when I'm low or for some reason things aren't working out or whatever I sometimes fall back into that yeah you know it's almost like a default headspace I think it's partly time right just being somewhere for a while.

6:31Yeah, I think it's partly time. It's partly, like I said, realising that lots of people feel that. So in a sense, it's kind of almost the human condition. It's not like everyone else is in this gang that I'm not part of, you know. I think that's, it's quite humbling, but also it helps you to, I guess, yeah. Because I think it's partly about disconnection And I think it helps you to connect with people when you realise that everyone's got their stories or their experiences that make them feel disconnected. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. I think it's partly that. Yeah. Yeah, because you sometimes hear about or even meet people who have grown up and still live on the same street.

7:17Yeah. Don't you? Yeah, yeah. And I always think that must be incredible to have this absolutely irrefutable sense that you belong in a place. And that must be so grounding, I've always thought. But so many of us don't have that. I think there's something lovely about that. And I think that should be celebrated as well. I think sometimes because so few of us have that nowadays, I feel like sometimes that's almost ignored or kind of devalued in some way. But I think that's really precious. and I think that's lovely. Unfortunately, it's not my experience, you know. But in an ideal world, I mean, I would like to set that up for my kids.

7:57Would you? Yeah. Well, yeah, but I know that that might not be the best thing for them as well. So I'm open to whatever happens. But, like, for instance, with my kids, I mean, my oldest kid, he's been in the same school since the nursery, and he's in year four now. And I was in, like, I think five primary schools. so it's a very different experience that he's having and I'm I'm happy that he knows everyone and also we've lived in like three different places in this local area so we know so many people and I think that's really nice I agree I think that's a really great gift for a child actually isn't it yeah do you go back to Ethiopia now then or no I actually I was wondering about whether I could go back next year I'm going to be 40 and I'm wondering if that would be a nice thing to do.

8:46But no, I don't. I'm going to Kenya, interestingly, on Sunday. Oh, wow. What for? To discuss a project. It's like a research trip. But that's really special. Because to me, the whole of East Africa is like, you know, this place I'm going in Kenya is actually northern Kenya. And it's very close to where my dad is from in northern Uganda. You kind of ignore the border so um yeah it's just it's a really special place I'm really excited about that that's cool yeah thinking about a slightly different theme I mean so many of the people that I meet talk about their home as a refuge or a safe space yeah words like that come up a lot so this this idea of safety in relation to the home did you feel that sense of safety growing up as a child, do you think, in relation to the home?

9:41Yeah, I did. Definitely when I was in Bromley, because, like I said, I was very much a minority, my home was the one place where I felt very safe. And actually, on the streets at times, you'd get abuse. Like sometimes walking to school, I might get people shouting stuff at me. So the home was definitely a safe space. Yeah, so it's kind of in contrast to what was outside of it. That's so interesting. do you feel like that now in your current home yeah I do I think it's hard the idea of a sanctuary is sometimes hard to create when you've got young kids like realistically I don't know what you mean I mean up on the top floor now I do actually have that it's such it's so lovely to be able to have that one room that is kind of supposedly mine I'm just getting used to this I've only just cleared it out recently but yeah sanctuary I wouldn't say you know I'm imagining maybe that's a different season of my life yeah but definitely like I'm just it's nice to have a um just a peaceful place and space for the kids I know they're safe you know yes exactly right so what were you like as a child if we could be a fly on the wall what kind of character were you I always liked my own space actually my siblings say that because they're all kind of more extroverts and I had three siblings okay and I was always a person who kind of I mean I played with them and stuff I loved playing games but I was always the person who kind of needed a bit of my own space and could be a bit rude about it but you know I was good at school I liked maths I liked English I liked art obviously I liked drawing so were you popular at school did you get on well with other kids and stuff or was that difficult for you I generally was secondary school got a bit tricky because I started to just this this kind of alienation that's what I started to really experienced then I think that's when it really started to kick in but as in primary school yeah I got on with people when you say alienation what what did you get bullied and stuff or no I didn't thank god but it was just being a minority yeah I also went to a very good school where there are a lot of very wealthy kids okay and so we didn't have much money because my dad was in and out of work I was one of the only black kids and it was also very elitist the school just the atmosphere so I think I kind of kicked back against that I mean I did find you know my tests and stuff but socially I started to really like reject that it was a really quite a painful part of my life so this is a sort of being a teenager yeah which again as I'm older I start to realize that a lot of people felt that for different reasons do you think that's partly because you were being told that you're different and that you're minorities therefore you wanted to assert yourself or your density?

12:28I think it was just being the odd one out and feeling like I didn't fit in and feeling like people couldn't relate to what I was going through or what I was experiencing. But I think it was also me as a person, the way that I responded to that situation, because I think other people in the same skin might have responded in a different way. So I'm also aware of that. and I think in a way I set myself apart I withdrew you know how when when people are uncomfortable sometimes they move forward and become a bit kind of I don't know what the word would be explosive or I don't know what the word would be cause trouble or something I kind of withdrew I withdrew from people and kind of which I don't think was a healthy thing but that was my response to that so you know I learned a lot I learned that I needed people because I think at the time I decided that I didn't need people I didn't need these people and so I withdrew but then I ended up realizing we all need people as humans so it wasn't good for me but you know that's what I did.

13:34How did you put yourself out of that then can you remember? I left the school I went to sixth form college and I still was very much kind of in my shell I guess it's a couple of things art was definitely something that I did in order to process what I was going through so I would you know draw and a lot of the stuff I would draw was kind of kind of about empowerment also just processing what I was going through it just instinctively that's what I did how I got out of it I think on a really deep level I so So my faith definitely brought me out of it because I think I was very, I started to hate everyone.

14:20I started to hate the world, which a lot of teenagers do, don't they? But I think I realised that I couldn't do that. And ultimately, I think Jesus changed my heart and healed me and helped me to love. Knowing that he loved me, helped me to love other people, even though I didn't feel they loved me. So that's amazing. So did you grow up with religion or was that something you discovered at that stage? My parents had always taken me to church and stuff. And I'd always say that I was a Christian. But interestingly, it was around that time, that difficult time at secondary school, that I went to a new church and I started to, I would say I really was seeking a relationship with Jesus rather than just trying to follow rules and go to church because that's what you're supposed to do.

15:08So it was around that time that I got deeper into that. And that really, to be honest, saved me from this kind of very dark place. So this is obviously a podcast about the home. I mean, would you characterize it that the church in some ways became a bit of a surrogate home for you? Did it give you that sense of belonging, do you think, or is that simplistic? It's funny because actually, like a lot of groups, churches can sometimes be a bit cliquey. and the church that I was at at the time I think was a bit cliquey the young people you know they were young people you know what young people are like and again I didn't really fit in I think ideally the home the church should be a home and I've been at churches in my life where it has felt like a home but at the time the church sadly didn't but it was it was God calling me home yeah and um a lot of my work kind of explores that interestingly i wonder if actually it's fundamentally about finding the home within yourself i know what you mean yeah i know and that's i think that's kind of yeah it's almost like it's it's like a human yearning a lot of the work that i make is kind of this longing for paradise i often talk about and when i talk about paradise part of paradise is this idea of like this place of belonging you know if you think about paradise all of these things we're talking about alienation and feeling um separated and disconnected from people that wouldn't be there it would be the opposite those feelings of connection and belonging and ultimately home and if the idea is that we built we started off in paradise you know in this garden of eden so i think a lot of my work is about this kind of longing for that and speaking about like a hope for that so yeah I think that that's that kind of idea of home and belonging I think it's kind of like something that we all long and yearn for so interesting yeah maybe we'll come back to that I'd love to ask about a bit more about your family so you've mentioned your dad what about your mum yeah my mum she lives pretty close to me now which is nice amazing yeah so you still see a lot of her yeah and did she work when you were growing up or Yeah, so I think when we were very young, she didn't work, which is nice.

17:27She was able to be really involved in our lives. Then because my dad was out of work, she started to, she tried being a teacher at one point. Then she, most of the stuff she did was like charity work. And she ran a soup kitchen at one point. So, yeah. Cool. And what about your siblings? Are you still close to them? Yeah. So I've got a sister and a brother and then me, then a younger sister. Okay. Are they roughly in this area or do you not? Yeah, my brother's really close. My older sister lives with my mum, but also most of the time she lives in Jamaica. She kind of travels around a lot for work.

18:04My young sister lives in Bermondsey. Okay. So your parents separated? I think they stayed married, but they didn't live together. My dad moved to Greenwich when I was about 16. Okay. How was that? Good. He needed to leave because it was difficult. living with him. It was really difficult to live with. Why was he difficult to live with, if you don't mind me asking? I think he probably had mental health issues. Okay. And so, yeah, there came a point where I think my mum asked him to leave. So he moved to Greenwich. He got a place there. Yeah. And the relationship is complicated, the kind of how it went, but I'd still visit him.

18:45So we still had a relationship, but it was very difficult. That's also very difficult. Yeah. How did that affect you as a child, do you think? I mean, did that contribute to the withdrawal that you talked about? I think in hindsight, I think it did. Because when I look back, I'm like, okay, that time where I was kind of withdrawing from people was when things were really tough with him, just I think before he moved out. So it was kind of that season. So that's what was happening at home. and then at school I was kind of I hadn't put the two to put the two together and I think anyone put it together which is a shame because it could have been helpful at that point to have some kind of you know therapy probably but um in hindsight I think yeah there was definitely a lot going on and at the same time you know GCSEs A-levels all that stuff that kind of pressure but you know that that family situation was really difficult at the time yeah but I mean before that growing up he had been around a lot because he didn't work he was very well he didn't work for quite a lot of the time he was very involved at home so he'd like walk us to school often school and back he was always doing like chores around the house so yeah so it sounds like you found a bit of solace as well in your artwork so let's move on to that so how did you figure out that you could potentially pursue that as a passion and as a career eventually yeah I didn't want to do it when I was younger because my dad always said I think it was must have been my dad that he you couldn't earn a lot of money so I was always money was always on my mind so when I went into the school I my plan was to be an accountant because that was my I was good at maths and I saw that as a good job you know a good you know job that you make money from but I kind of had an epiphany actually that actually you could do all that work and maybe not get a job or you could do all that work and get a job but maybe not be happy so I decided that I was going to do instead what I wanted to do which is funny but but then when I came out of college I stayed with some friends in Brazil and I started painting and drawing and I realized that when I was kind of left to my own devices that's what I wanted to do so then I came back to London and I got a place on clearing at London College of Communication to do graphic design and so that's what kind of the trajectory I went on.

21:15Okay so you're doing graphic design and how does that segue into fine art so basically the course was really conceptual yeah which i hated at first because i was like this is just i hadn't been brought up in kind of that kind of yeah you know a world where you spoke you kind of took fine art seriously or took conceptual art seriously it was super conceptual so the idea was they were trying to push the boundaries of graphic design and you could just basically do whatever you wanted but it was all about the thinking so I ended up making these big paintings I was end up doing lots of different things one of the things I ended up doing was making these big paintings and I think I became more interested in the idea than I had been before in terms of what you want to say you know what you want to express rather than just like designing logos or designing cd covers which is what my initial intention was and I began to realize that you could say anything it became really exciting the idea that you could be really ambitious but also that you could communicate anything I just became really excited by the potential of that so I made these started making these big paintings and did you have a big break moment do you think um was it more of a war of attrition it was definitely like non-stop saying yes to everything doing everything but one of the things I was invited to do about four years after graduating was a mural in Miami this massive mural one of the I think the biggest mural I've ever done still which is like 132 foot long 20 foot high and so I said yes though I was really scared yeah and I ended up doing that and that was definitely a turning point because people could see that I could paint on that scale interestingly I think Instagram was just on like at the beginning at that time so murals were like and Instagram were really good you know friends yeah that definitely was a big turning point that's so interesting isn't it so do you think that your the the graphic quality and the the um incredible sort of color and vigor of your work has that has that really helped you that that social media presence yeah yeah definitely I think so I think it makes a lot of sense there's a lot of messaging in there as well it's sort of perfect social media isn't it yeah which I hadn't planned yeah but it did it worked so I think that the artwork that maybe people might be most familiar with certainly in this realm is the electrical substation that you wrapped in kind of colored slats that you can see from the north circular road the a406 as you drive down it I absolutely love that project and whenever I drive past it it certainly lifts me in some way so tell us about that project for people that don't know it yeah so that was a collaboration with the architect if do and um it was commissioned by I think it was Argent the property developers for Brent Cross Town which was this new development and the first thing that they needed to build there was this substation to power the whole site so we were commissioned to to wrap this substation basically because the whole area is really gray concrete quite ugly yeah it's like a kind of spaghetti junction kind of thing and it's also it feels quite hostile like I think once I got the bus there for some reason and like taking public transport there it's yeah it's just not nice like there's cars whizzing by and everything so we really wanted to kind of subvert that and bring something really beautiful into the space so we created this big structure that wrapped around the substation and it was very much about kind of trying to create a landmark for the new development placemaking I guess trying to create a sense of in a way something that people could kind of latch on to to feel like it was homes kind of homemaking in a way which is quite interesting it's I mean it's a brilliant project and then you've recently got back from a from Paris where you had a solo exhibition I mean I've been looking at it online and reading about it barber shops are a big inspiration here aren't they tell us about that why are you inspired by barber shops so my husband is a barber and that was that was the kind of route in and for ages so we met the way that my husband and I got to know each other was I painted his barber shop which was this was his original barber shop which he didn't own he just worked in it I used to run it.

25:48It was, when was that, like 2010, I think. So for ages, I'd wanted to do something that was relating to that. And this just seemed like a good time to do it. So this whole body of work was inspired by the barbershop. It ended up being kind of almost an exploration of masculinity and a celebration of masculinity through the barbershop. I was reading about barber's poles yeah people may know this I didn't but those kind of spinning signs that you see outside barbershops called barber's poles and they signify something don't they yeah which is that back in the day they didn't just cut hair they also performed surgery in these places yeah yeah yeah and the they're red white and blue and the red signifies blood and the blue is a vein and a white is a bandage yeah which I found so interesting but you did your own barber's pole for the exhibition didn't you yeah yeah so what I mean apart from the masculinity element what else is it that interests you about that as a sort of as a thinking about a barbershop as a home as a place where people congregate what is it about it I think it's the it's the fact that it is a safe space actually is a sanctuary I think a barbershop for men why is it why I think because they've got their own space I think there's safety in that in the fact that there's no women there to be honest I think it's a which is a you know them I think it's a nice thing I think they feel like they can relax in that space and not not having to kind of guard or watch themselves let's move on to your home where we're sitting now your lovely home um so how long have you been here for I've been here 18 months 18 months okay and what was it like when you got here so to be honest we renovated it before we moved in oh okay that's sensible well kind of yeah but I mean it wasn't when we moved in to be honest the day we moved in was on fireworks night 2023 it's a good one to remember when you're filling out like tax forms you know I mean how long have you been at this address yeah exactly so that's when we moved in and we lived on the top floor we were all sleeping on the ground I don't think we had hot water so it was you know that wasn't ideal but it wasn't long the I think all of this had been done we had like plastic sheets up I don't know if the flooring was down but covered it wasn't super smooth and organized but yeah most of it was done before we moved in so for people that are listening to this and not watching it what just describe we're in East London yeah and this is is a terraced house built in what in the 70s or something I think it's 60s 60s it's funny because it's like it's not um It's not super modernist.

28:27I think it's almost like a cottage. I've heard people call these cottages. Yeah. It's just a small row of, I don't know, maybe about 10 or 12 of these little terraces. We've got a garden, which is nice. We've extended the roof. So it still feels, I think, a bit like a cottage. That's how I like to think of it. I agree. It does feel like a cottage. Like a modern cottage. Yeah, totally agree. What I really like about it is you've created quite adaptable space. so you've got sliding doors that you've you paint a very bold color so you've got bright yellow and a green and is it a pink in there yeah there's a pink there and a brown and yellow yeah so so tell me about that how do you because actually what's quite good is their pocket doors so they they pull right back into the into the pocket so you I guess you can choose to live with color or not live with color depending how you're feeling in some ways it's true and most of the time they're open which because I wanted the whole thing to be open plan but my husband didn't want that because he's practical and actually we ended up with something better because it does mean that you know when the kids are getting a bit annoying and i'm trying to have a shower with someone we can close that off but most of the time they're open yeah yeah because when you've got kids you do need that sort of acoustic separation sometimes sometimes exactly then it does make it mean you've got two spaces rather than one that is just permanently open so yeah and it's a nice little pop of color because most of the place we haven't put too much color in to be honest because we wanted it again my husband who's really practical was like i'm always changing my mind you are it's true yeah i am and like i you know to like live with something and then get annoyed and like oh i wish i'd done this i wish i'm not so we just kept it all quite neutral but we can kind of change the colors of those quite easily but as i say they they sort of they disappear out of sight so it's really clever yeah but you've in your living space you've got a huge rug yeah That's one of your designs, which came from Christie's, right?

30:19So tell us about that. How come you've got that? So I was commissioned to do a takeover of Christie's during Freeze Week, I think. October 2023, I think. So this is Christie's auction house. Okay. Yeah. Is it the one on King Street? The main one? Yes, exactly, yeah. The floor was all vinyl and carpet. So you've got this carpet made and it went all the way up the stairs. It was lovely. like it worked really well and then when it was finished we took it and basically I repurposed it I created little rugs out of that big installation yeah we've got the edges whipped on this one and another one one's in my studio one is here because there were these two hands which is this kind of recurring motif in my work so one of the hands is here one's in the studio and then there's a couple of other offcuts that I haven't found a useful yet yeah what do the hands mean in your work also I love it on your website the way there's a big hand that you navigate around the website with instead of a cursor so what is that so the hands actually started there was a painting i made in like during i think it was during lockdown maybe i don't know that said this will be a safe space and i put these two hands in it i think those are the first hands they were my hands but everyone always thinks they're my husband's hands because i painted them a bit too dark because i'm not an expert like i'm growing in my figurative painting and so the color was just slightly dark in my hands when they're super tanned but it's my hand and um it's about connection actually so you know the hand can kind of mean different things it's either reaching up it can be like praise it can be you know connecting two hands connecting so that's really what it's about is connection and it's it's fun because i've kind of used the hands in lots of different places and then used other hands but i think it's been quite a nice it's quite a it's full of meaning isn't it a hand yeah I guess there's religious connotations as well yeah exactly a pair of hands yeah so you were telling me earlier as well that you've got this sofa here which is an Ikea sofa yeah but you've recovered it yeah so I mean it's it's it's so uplifting but tell it tell me about what why did you choose to do that well it was great the sofa was great it is it wasn't like the nicest sofa but it's just like it's practical it's got storage underneath my Life is very much about practicality.

32:44Yeah, right. Yeah, it was all grey. And I thought, okay, let's add some colouring. So yeah, I got some bespoke covers made. How does that pass the test of something that you won't get bored of, like you described, you know? Well, to be honest, I am a bit bored of it. But, and they're also getting quite worn. They're washed. Every now and again, we wash them. They're washable and removable. I am getting a bit bored of it, so I probably will change them up fairly soon. But there you go. So it means that I can. because they're covers exactly I can get some new covers eventually I'll probably get a new sofa but not right now you know maybe when the kids are grown up a bit older when I can trust them it's cool as well you were saying your husband is is is sort of all about comfort and so as a result you've got a lot of carpet in the house yes so it's carpeted all out the stairs and then up in the bedrooms as well yeah all different colors yeah so was that the compromise you said I'll do carpet as long as i can exactly yeah because to be honest i wanted wood he wanted carpet he wanted really thick flash carpet and um because it carpet wise i would have accepted like a is it jute you know those ones that are like more kind of natural you know that kind of feel but he wouldn't accept that because it's too rough okay you know it's not comfortable is it like it's the type of thing you you lean your hand down you get like an imprint and a graze yeah you did so he wouldn't accept that so it had to be this kind of plush style and so yeah I said well at least let's get some different colors so that that was the compromise it's cool I mean what I particularly like about upstairs you've opened up into the roof void in your bedrooms and then you've lined it with plywood to sort of accentuate it it works so well I think what is quite a small room suddenly feels a huge amount bigger yeah so I really like what you've done there do you know how long you're going to be here for in this home I don't know I mean you know we could be here forever yeah I don't know well I mean with with that in mind how did you think about the kids and how they might respond to this space and I suppose how would you like them to look back on the house that they grew up in I just I guess I want them to have enjoyed it I think that a lot of it has been done in with the kids in mind like the kids almost are the priority and everything kind of fits around them do you know what I mean I want them to feel like they're free my husband always says that like with the um and also we've got two boys and a girl and they're very physical even the girl because she's copying them she's really really able like she climbs up the fence in the garden the other day I came out I found her at the top of the fence she's two so yeah I was like oh my goodness I didn't know she'd do it but um it's always been important to us that they feel like they can relax in their home and they don't have to like kind of watch this and that that they can just kind of do you know what I mean have that sense of freedom they're not having to watch themselves so everything is kind of done with that in mind so there's quite a lot of compromise there's not too much kind of there's nothing really expensive but there's no kind of artwork I mean I eventually will put some artwork up but like there's nothing too valuable or too precious because almost everything gets destroyed so you know that's kind of where i'm at this season yeah that's the reality of a family home i mean yeah your husband's prioritizing comfort and you're talking about safety and yeah that's the reality isn't it yeah so i totally get that what would a typical day here look like for you do you work from home a lot or you in the studio um i do work from it depends what's happening in the studio yeah but i do often i'll do like zoom calls and stuff from here or from my top floor in that room typical day porridge around the table um always porridge pretty much they cheerios is the treat for sundays i think it's sundays but sometimes i'm like yeah whatever you missed it my oldest son was telling me he missed he missed his cheerios on sunday so can he have it today I was like nah because it's just the porridge is easy not even toast because toast well our toaster broke down we had this really nice muji toaster yeah but it for a while um it's we haven't had it and I'm trying to eat less bread so we don't have a toaster right now but also it's just like you know toast it's like they've got to get their plates out get the butter out it's all just like a bit chaotic I'm just trying to go for simplicity See, it's boom, boom, boom.

37:14One thing. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. So it's just like porridge, boom, boom, boom. Cinnamon and cranberries or cinnamon and honey for the two little ones. The old one doesn't like cinnamon, so just honey. And that's it. You're doing well, I think. Yeah. And porridge is pretty good for you. So, you know, that's just my way of making life easier. I can't convince our eldest to eat porridge. I wish you'd give me a tip on that. But yeah, I agree. They just don't have a choice. So many different orders in the morning. That's what I mean. I can't be doing that. Like it needs to be just bish, bash, bosh and the rest.

37:46There's too much other stuff to be doing. Totally. I want to ask you about words because words come up a huge amount in your work. What do they mean, the words in your work? Why do you use words? I've always liked words because they're so powerful. I think I was very aware when I was younger of how powerful words were. I remember being told off a lot. They used to say I had a sharp tongue. And so I was often told that I couldn't say this and that or I had to, it's funny. I remember that a lot, which I don't know if it was the right response because it was just almost like censoring myself rather than finding a way of using that sharp tongue for something positive.

38:25Do you know what I mean? Anyway, who knows? But maybe that's what I'm doing. But I just, words are so powerful and they can have, yeah, they just have so much power. I'm just really aware of that. And so the words that I paint, they're often very hopeful and they're often trying to uplift. you know I said how my work was very much like you know I found solace in my in making drawings and paintings and stuff and I think often I was talking to myself like I was trying to build myself up with the words that I might write or the words I might draw and so often it is kind of me speaking almost to myself or speaking over my family you know whatever I'm painting.

39:04So it's sort of positive affirmation? Kind of yeah I mean I like to think of them as prayers often like painted prayers I'll think of but yeah it's the same concept it's like because you know and I often say my I'm naturally quite a pessimist so in my mind sometimes my mind is so full of stuff and sometimes it's so full of negativity like just this about that person or this about that situation or this about myself so much so for me the words are focusing on truth focusing on good things that to kind of silence all of that do you understand yeah I do yeah and I think I don't think I'm alone in that I think there are other people who feel that and I think that's maybe why the work resonates where does that negativity come from do you reckon I think it's kind of the way I'm wired because like I know other people who generally have almost like a positive outlook on life and I just don't I tend to see the problems the issues which is I wish it was different but But it does seem to be like the way that my default mode is kind of this quite analytical and looking at the problems and the downsides of situations.

40:16So have you got quite a harsh inner critic, as they call it? Yeah, I think so. I don't know whether it's to do with the way I was raised. You know, like my dad was definitely quite critical and very much like, you know, people joke that a lot of African parents are like this. Like if you get home, you get, you know, 99 percent. What happened to the 1 percent, you know? So I think maybe it's a bit of that. I was quite a high achiever at school, and I think I was always like, maybe I'm a bit of a perfectionist, and I can always see the room to do better. And that's annoying, but it does mean that you end up with some good stuff.

40:51You end up producing some good stuff. But sometimes it's like, I wish I could be a bit more satisfied and content. And that's something I really long for, is more contentment. are you one of those people that that enjoys the process of creating more than the actual result like once you've created it are you done with it by then i am i think also because sometimes my work is quite ephemeral so i am quite kind of like what's next but i'm always just learning trying to learn to enjoy more to be honest enjoy the process i don't necessarily enjoy the process okay it's all quite um i think it's probably that that kind of ambition and always wanting to you know pushing for the for the pushing to to do better and all of that so yeah I what I enjoy is just kind of like sitting in the sunshine doing nothing do you know what I mean do you get to do that ever not a lot I've had more time recently to do that which is actually really lovely just being able to slow down a bit and that's actually one of my one of my dreams is to or not dreams but one of my plans is to try and slow things down more and pace things more because for the last, you know, 10 years, it's all just been like kind of nonstop.

42:00So that's something I have, you know, I'm enjoying doing some gardening and I'm loving that. Like I really enjoy that. And it's all quite new to me, but I really enjoy that. I feel like we're made to do that as humans. Like, so I really enjoy that. And I think I love being in nature. I think I want there to be more of that in my life. That sounds really good. Yeah. sort of mindfulness bringing that into your life I'm the same I in a moment of weakness a while back I was in a bookshop and I bought a book called the perfection trap and I haven't read it yet but I have the same kind of disease as you it's it's very very tough but you know when you're you have that inner drive to create something achieve something and it's quite difficult I think to stop and just reflect and yeah and and say that went well I know and especially also I think when a lot of your work is quite solitary and I have you know a small studio team now but it's still it's very much me carrying this thing and it's like you know if you're part of a big team I think at least you know the idea of like an appraisal from a boss for instance that's not something I ever get so I think all of that can help it's almost like a ritual isn't it those types of things they help you to sit back and be like okay what's gone well oh this is great you know well done kind of thing celebrate so I think all of that is something I hope to kind of have more plan more into the process for me so you talked about we talked about words briefly you talked about having a bit of a vicious tongue sometimes has that ever got you into trouble I think maybe when I was sometimes unguarded like at school just small things but no not really it was more just in the home and I think it was quickly nipped in the bud it was explained to me that there were various things that I kind of had to just hold in so do you how do words play out in your home now is this a is this a loud place full of shouting what's it like uh yeah it's a lot of noise that's why this is this is really not a true reflection of the home yeah but um it does to be honest it does still feel calm which is nice but there's a lot of a lot of kind of yeah a lot of noise the kids are really into football songs right now it's really weird somehow that we've ended up all of these like football chants that they sing and my little toddler girl she does it too like um oh kevin de bruy now you know what i mean she sings that as we go riding on the bike it's hilarious but so there's a lot of um yeah there's a lot of noise so one person we did a podcast with is a brilliant jeweler called jacqueline raybone who lives in la oh wow she grew up in quite a tricky household i think and so she's got a rule which is or she had a rule as they were growing up which is just no raised voices ever which i find so interesting wow which she gave to the which she was she implemented in her household with her kids yeah yeah i know we definitely have raised voices i mean i'm not i i'm not a gentle parent is that what they call it gentle parenting yeah yeah no i definitely shout at the kids i sometimes watch myself and i'm okay i'm shouting too much but definitely when i'm riding on the bike and they're with me you need to do a lot of shouting for them to be hurt for me to be hurt and i do shout you know i do shout we all shout there and i'm okay with that they know they're loved yeah I get it um I was going to ask you about um I saw someone talking about the new London fabulous style have you come across this yeah I have heard about that yeah someone put a label on it but it's basically there's there's definitely a kind of groundswell of creativity through people like yourself Yinka Ilori is an obvious comparable Morag Myers Koff and so on who use bold colors graphics emblems things like that do you feel like you're part of a slightly larger movement of some kind or have you not thought about that i haven't thought about it much but i totally hear what you're saying like you know i think it's quite interesting because sometimes it's easier to see these things when you're outside of it isn't it and sometimes it's also easier i sometimes wondered you know in 20 years will we look back and see oh yeah there was a pattern it's sometimes easier to also look back with hindsight but yeah I think there is a bit of a thing I don't think about it much only when you know when asked or when there's a particular kind of when it's maybe that's the topic but I think um I think the way I've come about this has been quite a I didn't plan it out and it's not being like for a particular school of thought you know what I mean yeah so it's been quite I've kind of almost stumbled across this so it's instinctive yeah but I definitely understand what you mean in terms of parallels yeah I just because I just wonder what what is it about today culturally that means that this sort of bold optimistic artwork is coming out what do you think about that that's interesting I think on a practical level like I mentioned Instagram yeah I think that can't help but shape visual culture you know because it's almost like if if Instagram really lent itself to miniature work or something then I could imagine that kind of becoming something that you saw more of and I think yeah the graphic quality maybe the optimism I don't know I often think about how we as people as humans almost need things to kind of well things to encourage us but also kind of words to live by maybe and the words thing maybe is maybe in the absence of any other words people kind of seek that out I don't know I have to say like when I find it absolutely fascinating what I've taken away from this is is that you are naturally quite pessimistic and quite introspective and critical of yourself and yet you produce this work that is so optimistic and such a kind of call to action.

48:16So I find that so interesting. I love the way that you're almost sort of doing it for yourself as a kind of way to motivate yourself. Yeah, it is. It definitely is. Because, yeah, it's like almost survival. It's like having to lift myself. What would life be like for you if you didn't create, if you weren't an artist? I sometimes think I would have liked to be a dancer. Oh, right. Or maybe like a farmer. Those are my alternatives. And the farmer, I think, is like a retreat from this world. Because sometimes I do feel like it's quite a lot of pressure. It's quite performative. It can feel quite performative, you know, because ultimately paintings have to be shown.

49:00Do you know what I mean? And sometimes I'm like, it's just a lot. And the idea of doing something that felt really modest and very humble and you're not showing off about the turnip that you've grown. I know it can get to that because if you have that, as humans we just tend to get like that. And so I'd probably be out there trying to build the most eco, coolest farm. But I like the idea of just being a nobody knows who I am, farmer, doing that. Well, that brings me on to I'd just love you to cast your mind into the future. if you could sort of draw a picture of your life in the future at some point a kind of idealistic you know life that you might lead what sort of building might you live in how would you live where would it be well I think I love the city right but I also love the countryside and I love Africa I think I'd want to kind of like be in between a few places that's my dream it's kind of like my plan but I don't know if I'll accomplish it we'll see but like so to have a space here in London a space in the countryside here like a tree house in the middle of some woods that was fairly close to a station and that was like safe enough you know so that I had just that security so like yeah tree house is what I'd like to live in but then also I'd love to live like in a hut in my dad's village in Uganda that I'd also love to be there and be able to kind of go there and come back and yeah that would be my kind of dream set up why would you want the hut in Uganda ever since I was a kid I've kind of yearned for this kind of that kind of life that slow pace of life growing your own food that you eat no noise you know short natural noise but no kind of not even electricity like I'd love to just live like that for a bit and I know it's not easy and obviously my idea is very kind of romanticized but um I just really long for that and I think I think about the fact that that's how my ancestors lived well half of them and I've lived most of my life this way so I kind of would like to live a good part of my life that way you know I just feel I definitely feel like almost a longing for that yeah because you talked earlier about a longing for paradise yeah is that your paradise then I don't think it I mean because I love this I also love the English countryside I like I you know I love the two and I love the city which is another thing but I think there's a part of that picture of paradise for me is kind of lack of technology I know is you know but just all of the noise and distraction that's what gets to me so the idea of just having a simple life I really long for that but I also love the comfort of technology and you know so I think having a bit of all of it would be really nice but definitely for a substantial chunk I would really like to just experience living a very grounded kind of rural kind of life.

52:17Does technology really dominate your life then? Well I try not to let it dominate my life like I like to kind of not be on my phone too much you know I just sometimes feel quite I've definitely felt quite trapped at times and not even technology but the idea that we live in you know boxes even that kind of thing sometimes just stresses me out. What do you mean by that? I mean like because I'd love to be living out there in nature yeah sometimes I'm just like this feels really unnatural to be confined and to be honest being in the garden a lot like it helps me to feel like this is this is fine because I'm out there a lot especially in the summer but yeah I just I really really long to be in nature more I think it's really interesting because we talked we talked about belonging and about your slightly fractured sense of belonging from your upbringing but what you're describing being in your ideal future is actually reconnecting with those different geographies yeah which i think is so telling yeah so it seems to me that yeah if you can find a way to reconnect with east africa a bit more that would probably be good for you wouldn't it yeah i would love that it and i think maybe now is the time you know maybe now is the time which is nice like it's been a long i you know my sister's been all around africa to be honest with her job took her there but the way my life panned out is I've basically been London based but um as my kids are growing up a bit it feels like that season is kind of not of the kids I mean it's a long season with kids but that kind of young babyhood season I feel like I'm leaving that behind and so there's a bit more independence I've got now potentially to now do just be move a bit wider you know awesome thanks so much Laquana thank you I've really enjoyed that thank you really enjoyed getting to know you better and yeah thanks for inviting us into your home thank you thanks a lot thanks very much for listening as always some very exciting plans are afoot with this podcast and we've got loads of great episodes coming up very soon so if you're not already subscribed to the show don't forget to do that and we'll start lobbing lots of new content in your direction very, very soon.

54:34This episode was produced by Laconic Collective with music by Simeon Walker. Thanks very much again and talk to you on the next one. Bye for now.