Maggie Sellers On Her Hot Smart Rich Money Mindset—Women Are Being Lied to About Money and It’s Making Men Rich

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1:03In case you missed it, you're allowed to be hot, smart, and rich. So let's get into it.

1:14Hi, angels. Welcome back to another episode of Hot, Smart, Rich, the podcast. I am back with Miss Katie Sellers. Hello. You have lipstick on your teeth. I do. Like a lot. Do you want us to restart? No, let's just roll with it. That is the best blessing of working with your sister is like you just have no filter and you can say whatever. Yeah, no, that's literally the best. I never once have to think about like what are the words that are about to come out of my mouth? Well, I can't really say anything because I'm in my ugly era. Okay, we can't say that, Maggie. Yeah, we can. I'm in my ugly era.

1:52Okay. Like I don't feel good, you know? It's like I think I've worked so long obviously on inner confidence, but I would be lying if I said the way I look doesn't affect the way that I feel. And post-surgery, I just don't feel like myself. Like I'm so swollen. I've definitely gained some weight from not being able to work out. Mental health has gone down. So I'm in my ugly era. I'm embracing my ugly era. You're in your post-surgery depression era. Yeah. But it's hard. It is hard. Which is why we just recorded a whole episode on my surgery. Yeah. And I don't know which one will come out first, but we're at the Spotify studios.

2:31We're still that podcast team that like we wish we could do a podcast of all like my gossip trends on consumer news like on a Monday and then put it out on a Wednesday. But we just like don't have the infrastructure yet. However, we just started getting managed by Spotify. Yeah. And like their creator team. And so we do have access to the microphones, the studio, a team here, an engineer. So like hopefully these podcasts can run out a little bit faster. Actually, I feel like we'll make it easier. Yeah. It is so much work to do a podcast. So much work to do one. And it's so expensive. Like I think we've probably spent tens of thousands of dollars getting this thing off the ground.

3:10I think that that is actually something that we should do a whole podcast on. It's like if you were to start a podcast, what do you wish you would have known and how much money we've spent. And it's so fitting because like today what we really wanted to talk about was money. Money. We were going to do like 50, 20, 20, 10, which is our budgeting methodology we both live by. Yeah. But we were like, let's just do like a high level intro to money. Because I think that's what people have loved about the podcast so far. Women just don't talk about money. So like it'll be an interesting episode. I also keep thinking I'm touching your leg under the table, but it's like a furry pole.

3:43I'm like, Katie really needs to get her legs back. I need to shave my legs. We're going to get into all that because that's in our budgeting template as desires. But let's just start off. I've loved asking guests this question. What is the latest consumption habits that you've spent money on? So the last thing that you purchased and then the most expensive last thing that you purchased. Okay. Well, I just did spend$18 on two drinks of coffee. That's disgusting. Disgusting. I was like, oh my God, this is insane. On whole milk. On whole milk. And non-dairy milk is more. It is. Yeah. it's like 80 cents usually more yeah so that was like wow and then the most expensive thing i've bought recently was for the first time in over three years i redid my botox yeah i was wondering because obviously you didn't get botox while you were pregnant and then you didn't while you were breastfeeding but then why did you wait like a year and a half i think it's like you know you're in your post-surgery depression era it's like you're kind of just in your postpartum mom I didn't have postpartum depression, but just like funk a little bit.

4:45We're like, but don't you want to like get back to what you were like before then? There's like post partum body. You do, but it's also just like it takes effort. And when everything in your life is effort with a kid, I'm like, I just put it off. I don't know why. But so how much did Botox just cost you? I did like, I don't know, full face. You did a full face. Like I did. Yeah, full face. What is a full face? So tell us, like, you got your 11s. I got my 11s. I got, like, a whole bunch in my forehead. I just, like, spit across the people. My crow's feet. And then as I've aged, like, I'm 35. So my mouth has started to, like, droop down.

5:29So, like, my mouth. And then also in my neck. So this is actually something that I really have been waiting getting because I've noticed my neck has – My skin's amazing for 32. I'm in my ugly era, but my skin is great. It's giving. Like, it's giving. But my neck, I hate when people touch my neck. So I've always said, like, no to lasers, no to anything there. And now I feel like I have tech neck. What's tech neck? Tech neck is when your neck goes like this because you work so much. Oh, on a computer. And so you get wrinkles. Tech neck could be, like, your phone, you're always down, your computer, you're always down.

6:01So you're aging so much in your neck, not really on your face. So I have, like, a 25-year-old face, I'll say. and like 32 year old neck or like a 40 year old neck yeah so like i really need to get my neck sorted so okay all that botox you don't know how many units you did no and how much was it it was 900 canadian dollars that's a lot a lot and then so you know how you had gotten your jaw like i was like maybe i should get that too and then the day of she was like yeah we can add it on it'll be another 600 and i was like i think we're gonna have to wait on that honestly though it is the thing that has definitely changed the face the shape of my face i obviously have intense inflammation and swelling so i wouldn't judge it right now but i was noticing like my face was getting wider as i was aging and it's just from my anxiety like i bite down on my jaw so much yeah and so getting it in your masseter i don't know what it's called but like getting it in your jaw was the change of like slimming down my face yeah so okay that's that's a pretty expensive Botox bell.

7:02Yeah, it was expensive. Okay. Yeah. My most recent consumption habits, the last thing that I bought was Goop Kitchen last night, which I had half of for lunch today. Yeah. Which was a great salad. Did you have some of mine? Yeah. Before, like, I didn't have any gluten. Oh, you snuck it while you were in the bedroom. It's a really good salad. It's so good. But that's actually something I really, really, really want to focus on with my new living situation is cooking more. Yeah. I think it's so hard cooking for one person. It's so hard. Like not fun. Not fun. You can't experience new things with somebody and like going grocery shopping, the whole thing, it just like hasn't been a priority.

7:45Yeah. But I'm hoping that with living with my partner, it'll be fun again. Yeah. So I'm excited to cook because I spend so much money on food. Yeah. Like I eat breakfast and coffee at home every single day, although the Nespresso just broke. So I've had to buy coffee every single morning. that's also$18 yeah um the most expensive last thing that I purchased obviously was what I've talked about before like my breast augmentation um that those pants that I've been loving that I've been wearing though they're it's so funny because like they are$300 but I've worn them cost per wear down to like I don't even know how much I would have spent cost per wear like a dollar every time I've worn them at this point like yeah I haven't worn them 300 times no but you're down around like the$5 range I would assume because you lived in them for straight for like three weeks.

8:31Yeah. Yeah. This is the first day I'm wearing jeans. So TBD when this podcast comes out. Yeah. Anyway. So we're going to talk about money today and I think it's such an interesting topic for two women to sit down and talk about because women do not think about money the same way that men think about money. You're also a CPA. Yes. And you spent your entire career in finance. yeah so i think that also does a lot to your psyche whereas like for me being in the brand side and not being a growth marketer like we were building brands yeah you weren't spending dollars online no but it's like almost worse because there's not that conversion or like that cpm where your your mindset towards money as a brand marketer is very different than it is being in finance or even a growth marketing role right and so i think we come at things from two different perspectives but we have the same parents and like yeah their perspective on money which is also just like so interesting so we developed over the last few years this 50 20 2010 budget which was an iteration of what elizabeth senator elizabeth warren and her daughter wait i need to get her name so we don't like x the daughter out of this her daughter is amelia warren tagaji um they developed this budgeting tool called 50 30 20 that was in this book, All You're Worth, The Ultimate Lifetime Money Plan.

9:52And when I was reading it a few years ago, when I was like starting to budget and owned my first home at like 26 when I was working at Salesforce and like tech money, I felt like there was such a lie in this book that it was missing. It's like truly the secrets of the wealth that nobody talks about, but like behind closed doors they do. So I think like women specifically have been lied to a lot about money. And so I wanted to just like I don't have a specific agenda but I just want to like talk about money and ask other questions and then get into this budget but I think it's always good to start with like a mindset conversation so I have like a few stories that I want to share around just like how I think women think about money yeah so I remember I was at freeze a few years ago and this woman who's now involved in the arts who actually went to Harvard and Goldman Sachs funnily enough as well she was like one of the first fundraisers at harvard and she obviously had to call a lot of people and ask them for money and she was like it's so funny because like 30 years later their people and women's mindset towards money is still the same that it was when i worked on the goldman sachs investment banking floor back 30 years ago she was saying that men that worked at goldman sachs when they would leave and have a business idea they would be like going around and every guy I would throw in like 10, 15, 20,$25 ,000, whether it was into like a nightclub or a brand or an alcohol business or whatever it is.

11:19And it was like norm. Yeah. Like you do that. Not even a question. It wasn't even a question. Yeah. It wasn't like an FBI interrogation on like exactly where it was going. And it was just like, you're going to go and start something. I'm going to bet on you. And like, I'm going to make$25 ,000 more. So like, I'm going to give it to you. Yeah. she's like women need to know everything like they need to feel like they can ask a million questions and I don't think that one is better than the other but what she her story was trying to illustrate to me was that like women are so uncomfortable with the idea of investing money yeah that like they hold on to their cash as if it's finite it's not infinite and like what she was trying to share with me is like 30 years later women still think about money in a way where it's like I'm giving$30 ,000 I don't know when I'm gonna make$30 ,000 again so like I need to really like think through everything yeah but then it's like we see women doing these like crazy shopping halls and like beauty halls on TikTok and we're in this era where it's like consumption consumption driven and it's all about having the next thing and it's like it's not a problem for women to go and spend on a$20 lipstick.

12:34But when they think about these bigger investments, that is where it gets really nervous for them. And I think it's just like, we don't see women talk about money. And then on the flip side, we have these women who have actually had these founder exits. Like I can think of one story in particular where I met this female founder who had bootstrapped her business and sold it for hundreds of millions of dollars. She, again, bootstrapped means you haven't raised outside capital. So even if she had a partner, she owns the majority of the business. And there was an opportunity to get her to invest into a venture capital fund that was aligned with her interests and focus and theses.

13:12And she decided to do pro bono consulting work and advisory and would rather like help female founders getting on the phone with them, consulting on their businesses and didn't feel – she just didn't understand investing, she said, especially because she had bootstrapped her business that she was like I don't feel comfortable putting five hundred thousand dollars into the fund and I always like that story has stuck with me two years later because it's so backwards it when you told me that I was I was shocked I'm not shocked though that's the thing like the thing that we teach women is like it's better to be a charity or to give or to give back and be nurturing.

13:58And like, I love that. And I don't think it's one or the other, but this is the problem that exists today. Women control 85 % of consumer spend. We get 2 % of venture dollars. I don't know what the exact number is recently, but it operates somewhere between like 7 % and 11 % of venture capital partners at funds that make actual investment decisions are women. Yeah. So if you ever want that number of 2 % of female founders to change, you have to have more people that are investing make decisions to invest in female founders. It's not just going to magically happen. Yeah. The problem is if we have women that have real capital, like hundreds of millions of dollars in exits, and they are not willing to invest their money but would rather give advice for free, it seems great, but it's actually one for one.

14:49It's not one to many. It is actually a disservice to women in general to not have a broader approach and strategy towards money. And step up to the plate and educate yourself on like, okay, I've been able to accomplish success. I now have had this exit. I have capital. And like to your point, it is doing a disservice to these female founders because if she's not funding them, the men sure as hell aren't funding them. Well, and that's the other crazy thing about what I started noticing about women founded, especially consumer companies, is women are making their husbands and boyfriends rich. And they are not getting any of the money, especially if they have a prenup agreement where your husband is coming home.

15:26Like, I will never forget this when somebody asked me to connect with a private equity person that was going to buy a business that's doing like$400 million. And I have access to this tool. And I know the business. I know the industry really well. I was like, I'm so happy to jump on the phone and give you my insight as a female consumer into the business plus the actual backend of the technology that I have. And this man knew nothing about the business. Like his assumption was that it was dresses and X, Y, and Z for this specific scenario. Try not to get too much away with the business. And I was like, actually, no, their top products are X, Y, and Z.

16:03It's actually different. And this is how they're thought about in the market. And it was like, okay, I am definitely not as smart as that man at late stage private equity and all the things that he knows to look at. But at the end of the day, his ultimate research is the consumer. And he's not the consumer. And it's even like, what was the feedback that we got on our deal memo for the investment that we're doing right now? Do you remember? They wanted the customer research and we didn't put it in. So they were doing an investment right now into a female-founded company that's for females by females.

16:34I'm planning on using it you already use it I already use it yeah and we sent the deal memo across to our SPV syndicate and it's a pretty fucking good deal memo it is great the only feedback that we got from male investors because they don't understand the market or the consumer they were like where are your diligence call notes yeah like with customer feedback with customer feedback yeah that we can see like how it stacks up in the market why people are using it And it was so funny to me where I was like, we didn't include that because we know the consumer. We are the consumer. We are the consumer.

17:09And then 90 % of people that we sent the deal memo to were the consumer. Because we're mostly investing women money. Yeah. I want to be really clear. This is not an anti-man podcast or syndicate. Like I love hosting co-ed events for investors and having multiple sexes and deals. Like I do not, I actually say no to most female founder events now because I'm like, the real world is men. Like, yeah, we are, especially this deal that we're doing, you need a man and a woman to be able to create the product. Like it is in the fertility space. So like whether, unless you're using IVF, like you need two sexes to be able to do that.

17:48So this is not the anti-man podcast. The reason I'm just being a little bit shock value is like, that is the difference between women and men. And I think it drives me crazy because we as the consumer are taught to hide all of that when we're in the work world. Like you, we just had a, we just filmed another podcast about my surgery and how like if you were on Wall Street and you were like, I'm going to getting an NFTBA, natural fat transfer breast augmentation, you would be judged incredibly hard. and yet if all these men on wall street in private equity are wanting to buy a medical aesthetics provider and roll it up and sell it off or go public with it it's like they're gonna call the use and figure out like the space yeah the customer research how fucked up is that no it's so fucked so i think the mindset of women towards money needs to shift and i think it's interesting like growing up what was your mindset towards money well I mean oh this is so hard because like we did grow up in a risk adverse household we didn't really talk about money that much never talked about money so blessed to grow up in a situation where we never had to think about money being a problem and I feel like that partially of like not talking about it has kind of done us a disservice later on in life where it's like it was never talked about yeah but then our parents did a lot of great things where like we were putting control of our financial destiny very early we're like six seven years old and we're going to get an rbc debit card yeah and we would get an allowance every week we had to go and deposit it in the bank yeah we went to college and our dad was like i'm not paying your tuition for you i'm depositing it into your bank account and you're responsible for actually paying it yeah for making the payments on time and that's actually such a interest I actually kind of forgot all of that yeah I black out a lot of stuff I don't even know why but it's interesting because I agree and it's one thing I never do or I try not to do which is this term called ostriching yeah which is essentially ostrichs like put their head in the sand and you pretend like you don't like see the problem it doesn't exist it's kind of like if you have a warning sign that maybe something's wrong with your body and you wait and you end up like with stage four versus like stage one, it's a lot harder to treat, you know?

20:16So similar with your financial health, it's like the number one mistake that you are making is like running away from your problems by not dealing with it and putting your head in the sand. So like my HSR rich girl tip number one is every single morning, wake up and check your bank account. Like check your credit card statement. And I think that was something I've, I've tried not, I've always known, even if it's like, Oh my God, especially when we were adding up yeah I was like it's not as if I can pay off my credit card like let's just say I had 10 ,000 on it like maybe one month it was like nine I would always try to not spend where it was like we were going over but when you are starting a new business it's like there are expenses yeah especially when you're like I looked at the Amex credit card bill the other day for the first time it was like$18 ,000 in December because we were doing so many events for our company and you're like holy crap yes but like one thing i've never done on a personal finance level is like ostrich because i think when you pretend like things don't exist it's way worse it's way worse when you have to deal with it yeah yeah and so if you're listening to this and you're like trying to become financially independent or smarter with your money the number one mistake you're making is thinking like money doesn't exist because it's like a credit card or it's like tiktok shop and And I think going back to our upbringing, those little things that mom and dad did actually, although it wasn't something I've thought about until this moment, it really did empower us to feel like we were in control of the destiny.

21:42Yeah. And I think we're so privileged to be able to sit here and like talk about that because so many people listening like didn't have the luxury where their dad is like, I'm going to send you money to put into your bank account and like you go and pay it. But it's like we didn't have to do that. Yeah. although growing up I had a job waitressing even when we were away for school it was like I had to leave and like go to be a waitress like yeah go and do like all the odd jobs I had in college which was like being a promoter being a writer like I worked you always had a job always yeah I was always a fucking hustler yeah you were because also like I liked I knew I liked nice things super early on yeah and I remember like dad and mom mom still I don't think owns a designer her handbag she has a gucci bag she has one gucci bag yeah mom and dad had drove the same cars for 15 years yeah they are just not flashy people and didn't understand designers so like for me i liked designer from a very early age yeah and so i remember when i bought myself my first louis baton bag and then i sold it mom was like why would you have bought the bag and sell it and i was like because I made a profit mom yeah and so I always worked because although we were really blessed in a lot of ways it was like for what we're going to talk about which is like the needs that you have yeah there was nothing that was there for desires and as somebody that liked fashion and beauty yeah there was no desires well yeah I know what you mean there was desires like we can't sit here and act like we didn't have a lot of privilege like going to summer camp and like doing on trips, going on trips twice a year.

23:18Like we did have a lot of privilege, but I'm talking about financial freedom to do whatever I wanted with money that was not there. So like starting my first business at seven or eight Maggie's pet business from that day forward, I had a job, whether it was like taking care of people's pets, literally like hustling around the neighborhood, trying to babysit for people when I was like 10 cooking, like doing whatever. Yeah. And I'm flipping handbags, flipping handbags, promoting in college, like writing, convincing you to wrap a million Christmas gifts and like me sell people like wrapping services like and I was put to work yeah I've always been the visionary entrepreneur that's like I need to make money yeah I think we come at this conversation from like a super privileged background where like our version of money has always been very different than a lot of people listening to this but I think that's why we're so open about it because we're like there are secrets of the rich that like I want to democratize and mom and dad they were like dad was a taxi driver mom was a waitress to pay for dad's law school and then dad worked his ass off to get to where he was able to have financial freedom from being a taxi driver yeah I think that's why now that I'm even in a different circle in LA where like the wealth in the US is just so much bigger and so different than Canadian wealth.

24:38It's like I'm learning things that I also never experienced. Like, I'll give you a great example. So when I was like thinking about raising a fund a few years ago, I met with this man who had raised$100 million solo fund. And he was like, the best way to raise money is being around rich people. And I was like, what advice is this? Like, This is horrible advice. And then I kind of was thinking about it being like business is built on relationships and being at certain things. And that's why business is so done on the golf course and like who you know. And you can really build a business if you have the chops and the skills based on relationships.

25:22And he was like suggesting to literally like go and put myself at like this. I don't even know how to say it. This place in like the south of France to go and like raise money. I'm like, I'm not going to do that. Yeah. But I think it did make this shift in my brain, which was like, wait, like if you do open up access for yourself to certain things, like you are given opportunities that you otherwise wouldn't have. And that's why people pay to go to like Harvard and Columbia because their network is paying for their network. Yeah. And I think that there's a way to do it with our budgeting technique.

25:54And that is how I've been able to start investing. You've bought a home. Like there's a lot of financial freedom that we've unlocked for ourselves with obviously the understanding of like we didn't have debt graduating college. And like we did have a lot of financial privilege. But I hope that is not someone going to hate on that. It's like almost like thank you for sharing like what you've learned and like taking us with you on the journey. Hopefully. We can only fingers crossed. Yeah. so when you think about money yeah what's the first thing that comes to your brain i just see green you see bottega i know i see like a u.s dollar bill um money it's kind of uh sometimes what i think like as a woman i just it is even though i'm a cfo i'm a cpa I run the finances for our business it's still kind of like oh I don't want to have to think about it I am the opposite I love money and I think about money as a tool so I've always thought about money as like super infinite and like I've always had this underlying thought that I was going to be successful yeah and I think that adds a different level of pressure where I'm like okay I haven't made it yet um but it's really interesting because I think that as a female not many females think about money as a tool but I've always thought about it that way yeah and I've always bet on myself and I think that's also another secret of the rich is like you can play it safe but I remember dad saying growing up like if you ever want to be wealthy like you have to be an entrepreneur and so I think there was a period in my life where I went from having a shit ton of savings like I sold my house in Toronto made like let's I don't even remember what it was like let's just say it was like two hundred thousand dollars of profit yeah and I Canadian and then I basically like use that money and used it as a way to quit my full-time job and get a visa which like was an investment of like over a hundred thousand dollars into the U.S.

28:00economy to essentially like start betting on myself and it started as consulting and then has turned into HSR and a media company but like I took what could have been a$200 ,000 profit and could have like just done the safe thing and completely was like, I'm going to drain my savings and like bet on myself. And that I think I can like 10 X my money if I start things myself and can like write my own destiny. Yeah. So I think that's how I've started to really change my mindset and change other people's mindsets towards money. But as a CFO, does that make you like so nervous? I think like okay actually when I do think about it from a CFO perspective I am the same it's a tool you like you spend it and there's a result and you should be spending it on things that actually give you the biggest result of like the objective of what you're trying to do and I've seen that in practice like building a billion dollar business like you have to spend money to make money wait there was this thing on TikTok that I really wanted to ask you about that It was like the CFO and the CEO member.

29:05Oh, yeah. Oh, my God. I so resonated with that. So there is this TikTok video that was like the CEO with these grandiose plans. Yeah. Very much me like we're going to do X, Y and Z. And honestly, I felt like this year you really found your voice like reigning me in and being like we actually can't invest in all of these things. Like we have to pick one and like see if it's going to pay off. And I think that's what's like even been the most interesting. Like we'll just be transparent. We just bought on PR. yeah and it's an expense like we weren't really anticipating or like it's hard because like can you measure a direct ROI with PR right and I think you were kind of like I'm not sure and I was very much like I'm willing to make this bet that this is what the business needs at this time to like bring the podcast to the masses and like bring financial freedom to other people and like spread the mission of HSR and but I was very clear with you then we can't spend on these other things exactly yeah and so there was this tiktok video that was like a cfo and a ceo that were like really at odds with where the business was going to spend money and i think it's taken us a year of working together or more to get to this place where i understand that we can't bet everything which is what i've done in my life like the business needs to have safety and security and like profitability, but it's just something that startups don't talk about, which is like how close they are to like zero in their bank account all the time.

30:34All the time. And that was honestly, when you think about money and the anxiety that can come with money for me being this early stage startup, cause I've never been before. That was wild for me. And I have gone through like wild ups and downs where like, you've had to talk me off ledges. and it was like a meme i sent you last week because last year when we like we've talked about this on the podcast but like it was so sketchy we were like how is this gonna happen and like not my full-time job i have a baby and like i have a mortgage i've been dipping into my savings obviously for like years now yeah and i was like i just believe in myself like i know that we're on to something and then this year like it just was such a different situation like we're recording at the spotify studios like there's just so much stuff happening yeah but you literally sent me a meme the other day of like a dog with its eyes like with the fire all around like everything's fine everything's fine and the room is on fucking fire yeah uh yeah i i mean i've gone through a crazy i think evolution of how i view money and like being comfortable in really uncomfortable situations.

31:47But honestly, one of the reasons that I no longer wanted to be a CFO was exactly what you're describing, the push and pull with the CEO and the whole executive team of constantly being the person who has to say no. It sucks. Yeah. That's actually one of the things I hate about being an investor as much as I love being in early stage businesses and helping people grow your job is to say no yeah and it it's hard it's hard like people resent you they don't understand the full picture they think you're not creative they think you're not creative or like you we were even talking about like a founder we know who's super secretive with money and like the the distrust that it like can breed through an entire team and how toxic it can be like it's a really really challenging thing for startups and like to figure out how they're even going to deal with it, communicate it.

32:41Like it's yeah. But it's honestly so interesting, like because I feel like there's more businesses that are especially early stage that are secretive about their cost to their employees than not because they're like, if an employee thinks that I make if my let's just say my journal, how much did this cost us to make? The Jack Welch Management Institute at Strayer University helps you go from I know the way to I've arrived with our top 10 ranked online MBA. Gain skills you can learn today and apply tomorrow. Get ready to go from make it happen to made it happen and keep striving. Visit Strayer.edu slash Jack Welch MBA to learn more.

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33:58Series premiere Tuesday on NBC. i think like just the pure cost of goods is like 12 a unit okay and then that's like including shipping and everything or no no okay so like that's not including shipping no then you think about like building your website having your returns having someone on customer service like shipping it out to the customer like if you're selling a journal for 55 and you're we're basically covering our cost like we're making zero money on the journal and it's like a marketing tool yeah and i think like our transparency with pricing is actually when we have a larger organization is what is going to empower our employees to like truly understand business yeah because i think so many founders that are like i don't want my customers my employees to know how much it costs me to make it but like if you just explain to your employees like we have to pay your salaries and your health care and your insurance yeah and we have to ship customers their products and we have to cover customers it adds up it adds up and so what we experienced a lot was like it's the balance of the education to educate people we're not making any money and then that scares the shit out of some people because they're like what do you mean i work at a business that doesn't make any money am i gonna have a job which again it's like even in this environment it's so it's honestly interesting to figure out which businesses like won't be around yeah and we just had somebody on our podcast that shared that they were at a 20 million dollar top line revenue they went through doing 20 million dollars hired 30 people had to scale back to three people and fire almost everybody yeah and like this is I think why money creates so much anxiety and why this idea of like this budgeting tool is actually I think the freedom even just with your mindset shift of knowing that like you have everything you need on a personal level and then like you don't feel guilty about the things you're going to invest in.

35:53So when we were developing this and like we spent literally months putting this together, we really like laid out exactly what we just talked about, like our upbringing, our relationship with money, and then like what our method is compared to the original method. It's outdated and we see all these videos on TikTok of like, the reason you can't afford a home is because you're buying Starbucks every single day. And like, I think that there is some truth to that. But I also think that is a lie that's being told where it's just the cost of living is so expensive. Now the cost of homes are so expensive now.

36:27But the original method of the 50 30 20 rule that was popularized by Senator Elizabeth Warren and her daughter, Amelia Warren is you do 50 % for your needs, 30 % wants and 20 % saves and I feel like it missed this idea of investing in yourself and like betting on yourself and putting yourself into situations that would open up opportunities that otherwise wouldn't exist yeah and so we developed it where it's 50 % your needs 20 % your saves 20 % your desires and 10 % your goals so when we're thinking about your needs it's so funny I wrote in here like we all need things to live you have to get clear on what exactly those are and I bet you the list is shorter than you think it is a place to live your utilities your cell phone food essential clothings transportation medical care insurance work related and minimum payments on your debt it's actually like super simple um like you don't need Netflix to live you don't need Netflix to live which we'll get into of like what actually would you categorize that as yeah um and there's actually a ton of questions in the workbook of like these are questions determine if you actually need something if something is really considered a need can you live in safety and in dignity without this purchase if you lost your job would you continue to spend on this item could you live without this purchase for six months like if you actually asked yourself that question it is wouldn't spend on a lot you wouldn't spend on a lot.