How this visually impaired engineer uses Claude Code to make his life more accessible | Joe McCormick

17:46How I AI Host:If there are external links found, it should open them up in hidden tabs, extract their content and send it off to open AI to summarize. And we'll see here, I just finished that. It's going to go off and quickly generate a small PRD for that. this doesn't take very long at all i'm going to accept all the changes because i find reading in that diff view to be particularly painful with a screen reader it's not like terrible but it's much easier just to read it in the document and since there's a new document being made i'll now look at it here and we'll see how this looks so we have our goals we want privacy security makes sense that's the user stories here there's some function requirements it's got a parse It's all is making sense so far.

18:28How I AI Host:It's non-functional. And it's not a scope. It's images. Yep. I already demoed my image processing. And so open questions. All right. Where and how should we summarize? Makes sense. We don't need success metrics for this. It's internal. So let's answer some of these questions. So let's just select it all and add it. I'm going to dictate again. So I can hick for a while and I'll start. We want to build a very simple PRD here for a locally run Chrome extension. where the job is when in Slack, in Chrome, and hovering over a message that has focus, you can run the keyboard shortcut, Control-Shift-1, and that will look for any external links in the message.

19:13How I AI Host:If any are found, open them up in hidden tabs and extract that content and send it over to open AI. When in open AI, we should summarize them and extract three to five key takeaways from the article and return those to the user in a fully screen reader accessible modal, which includes the article's title and a link out in a new tab to view the article. Okay. We now have this generating the PRD. So we can see, you talked about keyboard shortcut. It's got our goals. Minimize user effort. Extreme accessibility is key for this. Some basic user stories. Some functional requirements. Cool. This looks good.

19:55Joe McCormick:And one thing I have to call out here is you're an engineer, and that was a pretty good product description, and that resulted in a pretty good PRD. So one of the things I like about AI is, as I say, there are no lanes. If you are an engineer and you have an idea, you can write a very good PRD using a little bit of AI assistance. If you need a tip, I know one or two tools that can help you with it.

20:22How I AI Host:Yeah. And this is no custom PRD prompts or anything like that. This is just mostly the foundational models work here.

20:28Joe McCormick:Yeah.

20:29How I AI Host:Cool. So now we're going to hop into a new tab, spin up clod code in here. And ahead of this, as I mentioned, I built a couple of these Chrome extensions. so because i've done a few of them i ended up building out a clod skill to help me build more chrome extensions so after i built this the first two i had clod look at both and figure out what was the patterns that were common across them and work on a skill so i could just build the third the fourth the fifth in a much simpler version and extract out that common piece i have found clod skills to be a mixed bag in terms of actually being picked up automatically so i am going to explicitly say like use the skill but technically you're not supposed to do that but i definitely found that that's uh buried in its approach so i'm going to make a prompt here it's

21:12Joe McCormick:going to more request the skill and for folks that are wondering how to set up their own um skills we do have a how i episode it is introduction to quad skills where i explain that quad skills are files in a in a folder sometimes they're zipped files in a folder so if they seem mysterious to you go check out that mini episode from um i think it was october or november and learn how to make

21:37How I AI Host:your own clod skills they're pretty useful yeah so in here the prompt is just going to be um so first at mention the prd so we have that and we say use the clod skill for creating chrome extensions channels to build out this PRD. And one thing, um, cruel, uh, cloud code has added this feature where you can edit a prompt instead of just in the terminal in a code file. And so in cloud code, if you hit control plus G, it will open that prompt in a text editor. So especially for me, we're navigating that terminal is not super screen reader friendly. I now navigating it in the same place that I write code on a day-to-day basis, which is very screen reader accessible.

22:26How I AI Host:And so again, other people may find this to be useful. You can craft deeper prompts, you can like control F in here, you can do whatever, it's just a file. And so I think it's a really useful tool they added a few versions ago to make it a little bit easier to work with. And I'm just gonna put a note here, use my open AI key from my shared Chrome extension and the config i've had some i don't want to keep pasting my open ai keys and stuff like that so i end up pulling out some shared config to share across all my chrome extensions that way i don't need to rinse or repeat that step over and over again so i save this file now and now whenever i close this it's going to replace my prompt in cloud code with that completed prompt oh interesting yeah so it's super effective especially as you want to do a deeper prompt to use this and not to worry about the whole terminal side of things cool now we're gonna kick this off and so i do have this cloud code session right now in planning mode you'll see it's requesting use the skill which is great we want to use our skill i'm going to shrink this terminal so we can see more clogs i don't really need this as much okay it's going to run some commands um that actually pull in that cloud uh that prom extension config that i talked about another thing i have to make cloud code a little more accessible is again i'm not necessarily seeing everything that pops in as it's going and so i set up a clod hook that whenever clod needs user input it will um basically like ding a bell on my computer so i could hear a sound that is like oh joe you need to do something right now to work on this i actually don't want clod code to read this file so i'm gonna say no because this is some secret configuration.

24:08How I AI Host:So I'm going to say, no, don't read that file. Now that has a API key in the don't read it. If you need, you then use JQ to extract the keys. So again, luckily I am an engineer. So it's not like fully vibe coding this from scratch. I know that there's a utility that will extract just the keys out of a JSON object and Claude won't be able to see the values, which is the actual secrets there. So now here we are. It's just going to make a symlink to this extension for us so we don't need to worry about the configuration. And if I ever do change it, it will automatically update in all my extensions.

24:48How I AI Host:So instead of having each one of their own API key and my key becomes invalidated for some reason, having to update all of them, I use this concept called a symbolic link. So just link the same config file into all my extensions. So one change fixes everywhere.

25:02Joe McCormick:Yeah, and this is one of those things that's just easy to do when you're running these things locally or just building stuff for yourself is you just make the maintenance and the maintenance and deploy of these really easy for yourself and make it as simple as possible for you to repeat building things and using the same, for example, API keys. And, you know, when you want to share all these publicly and publish them to the Chrome extension marketplace, we can do a little cleanup.

25:30How I AI Host:Exactly. So here's our plan And just like before, Control-G also works to edit plans in the editor. So similarly, this is going to be a pain to read in this terminal for a screen reader. But also, if I want to make a tiny tweak to one thing here, I don't need to worry about telling Claude to update it or write it to a file. I just hit Control-G, opens it up in this file. And now we have our full plan here. And you can just tweak different parts of it if you want and modify it. So it's another great usage of the Control-G shortcut.

26:00Joe McCormick:Yeah, I want to call this out for people because so many folks would get something like this. And then if it was wrong, kind of say, no, this is wrong. Please update XYZ or ABC. And, you know, you're calling out not only is that a pretty inefficient way for you to interact with this file in terms of accessibility and your need for a screen reader, but it's also just not the fastest way to give it feedback. And so your ability to just take this, move it into code, use this control G, I believe, edit it, close it out, run it is just, again, a lot more efficient. Yeah.

26:38How I AI Host:And so we'll do a quick one through this plan. I'm using, again, some more keyboard shortcuts just to break it down and fold the markdown headings. So I can, from my perspective, it's hard for me to visually or I don't visually scan the page. So reading through a big file, I typically in code or markdown rely on folding so I can collapse different sections and read them and then expand only the sections I care about. So I don't care about certain aspects here. But like maybe I want to get deep into the error handling piece. So I'll expand that section and just read this part. So we got some just logging, some key patterns.

27:16How I AI Host:But this plan generally looks good to me. So now I will just save this and again, close the file. And that is what is over here in the prompt because I didn't modify it. It didn't take any time. It was just ready. But if I modified it, it would take a split second. We'll load that new plan in and then it moves forward.

27:30Joe McCormick:Yeah. And I just have to call this again out again for people who are maybe listening to the podcast or again, are not paying attention to what it means to use a screen reader here, which is you got your little your little headphone plugged in right now. And I am so impressed that you're using the screen reader while walking us through this demo. And what I think is so fascinating about watching your workflow here is it's super efficient and very fast. Even if you don't take into account you're using a screen reader. So the fact that you've been able to build these shortcuts, these tools, use Cloud Code in a more effective way.

28:11Joe McCormick:and then you add on this layer of and it makes using this this kind of screen reader a lot more accessible to you is just very impressive and I don't want people to miss that there's a this invisible layer that we don't get to see or hear right now that you're also putting in between this which adds a little bit of micro friction yeah and I think one thing that's great about quad code

28:31How I AI Host:so like right now visually one of the options is selected in blue I don't necessarily know which one it is and using the arrow keys it does not tell me with the screen reader what's selected but cloud code has done a great job of standardizing where one means yes um two means often yes but like manually with like a variation and then three is is like no or or type something extra and so i can uh i can basically instead of using the arrow keys and enter i can just be like yeah i want i want to just move forward here should i hit the number one yeah and so they've done a good job of using i think lots of different inputs and lots of ways to make this a little more That's as far as it goes as well.

29:07Yep.

29:08Joe McCormick:And so that consistency, again, maybe this is for folks that are building AI products and trying to reinforce workflows, especially for folks that are building maybe these terminal UIs that I think are really lovely and interesting to build is you want, you know, people love the terminal because it's so fast and you want it to both be performance fast, but you also want it to be UI UX fast, which is if your user always knows one is X, two is Y, three is Z, then they can consistently use these keyboard patterns of one key or two keys to efficiently get through your UI. And I think, you know, taking that mental friction, that cognitive friction off a user by driving consistency and patterns that people can either explicitly or implicitly learn is a really useful tool when you're using UI that is more constrained.

30:02Joe McCormick:because again, a terminal UI is naturally constrained to basically text. Yeah.

30:07How I AI Host:And Cloud Code has been working on and has released a BS Code extension that is more of a GUI. I've just found that it's a little bit lacking behind some of the latest and greatest features. And I'm like, I want everything immediately. So I'm able to get spoiled. But I think that's going to catch up as we go to and maybe potentially more screen reader accessible option for some of these things too.

30:27Joe McCormick:Yeah. And again, we'd love a beep boop at the end of an agent completion so i love i love the cursor sound i love um that you're using one here for for cloud code because again i'm presuming with your screen reader you're not going to read this whole stream of what no that's too much i think it's a big difference too between like vibe coding

30:49How I AI Host:things and um like production quality code right the final output here is just for me it's gonna run in my chrome i don't really care what the code looks like at all versus when i am building software for my full-time day job and actually building stuff that's going to be in the hands of millions of users and many developers, I do do things a lot differently. The plan I'm going to read very detailed what it's going to actually do. The code I'm going to be reading, I'm going to be doing smaller commits and reviewing it kind of chunk by chunk and getting much more detailed. In this case, yeah, when the final output is just a user of one, the code quality is a lot less important.

31:27Joe McCormick:Yeah, what matters is does it does it work?

31:29How I AI Host:Yes, exactly.

31:30Joe McCormick:And it doesn't work in a little bit of like, did you leak your API key? Those are the two things we want to worry about. But other than that, we are we're on our on our way. And you know, the the other thing that I think is really fun here is because you've built, I think the idea that you pick a platform or a framework for a set of your personal software and then establish best practices through a skill and then just rinse and repeat for other use cases is a really good way to get super fluent with some of these AI tools. And so I've seen a lot of people say, all I do is build markdown based repos for my documentation and everything else.

32:17Joe McCormick:Everything I build is just a markdown based repo. And then I've gotten really good at using cursor for this. And then you know, you have this example of every, you know, not everything, I'm sure, but like a lot of what I build are going to be Chrome extensions. So I'm going to make, you know, this framework, get it going. And then I can get really good at cloud code, because I'm not relearning a technology and on top of relearning a tool. And so I do think it's, you get compounding effects by staying in the same technical space when you're trying to learn these by coding tools, because you're not trying to learn, you're not trying to learn on two fronts, you're trying to learn on just the tool of the tooling front.

32:52Joe McCormick:And some of the technical pieces have already been established.

32:55How I AI Host:For sure. And I think as we talked about before, when we were starting, like return on investment gets better and better, because building this one is my third takes half the time as the first one. And when I build the fifth, I think it's gonna take a fifth the time of the first one, like, I am getting better, the clod skill, each time I build one, I'm just gonna feed it back in and be like, what was the skill missing, like, make make it better. And so I think it makes the return investment may turn into be like two days of payback period or something crazy. So yeah, it does feel like it's cool to spread out and try many different things.

33:26How I AI Host:But it does also just feel great to be like, I have an idea. It is in my hands in under 30 minutes. Like it's just very cool.

33:34Joe McCormick:Yeah. And again, this is one of those things where I tell people to work on their anti to do list. And when you have a recurring task or a recurring point of friction, where you're constantly like opening links from Slack and a new tab and then trying to come back to them later and read them. Or, you know, you would be constantly doing this, like, let's zoom in on this image and figure out what it is. And is it something I need to worry about when you have those recurring tasks? It's 100 % worth it instead of spending the time on the task itself, to spend the time never having to do that task again.

34:11Joe McCormick:And I like this idea of the payback period of personal software basically collapsing to zero because it really just illustrates where we are in terms of the efficiency and value out of AI, which is it is much more important to learn to build some of

34:29How I AI Host:these tools than to do a task right now.

34:33Joe McCormick:Like the payoff is so much higher to learn how to automate the task versus doing the task. And if you can just do the change your muscle memory, to every time you do the task, pause yourself and say, actually, I'm going to learn how to automate the task, you can really, really create a lot of leverage in in your day to day life, even in your personal life.

34:57How I AI Host:Yeah, for sure. And we are just about done here. So I was checking back in on our little to do list, which it just finished. So it's doing some final steps here, but we're just about ready to actually load this in. Right now it's just kind of analyzing to see. Yeah, perfect. So it's running this one last step, which is going to be basically telling us, hey, go, go load this in. So once we are done with this, we need to actually load it into Chrome. So Chrome has a mode for extensions called developer mode. You'll see, I have that toggle on at the top. And it basically means that you can install extensions, not from a Chrome web store, You can install extensions like from your local computer.

35:39How I AI Host:So you don't want to generally have that on because like somebody could have sideloaded in some credit card skimmer that you've imported or something. But if you know what you're doing and you know you just built a thing, you can go in here and turn this on. And then this looks a little bit different once you have this on compared to probably you guys who are not having this on look in your Chrome extensions world. Because we have these options on the side here to load an unpacked extension. So this means an extension that's not like fully deployed in the app store. So let's hit this and this is going to open up our little, uh, file browser here.

36:11How I AI Host:So let's just pop back and we had called this Slack summary extension. Okay. So that is now loaded in the bone with truth. Uh, was it true of the software is you can only test it, uh, or easily tested in Chrome. Um, so we're going to actually try it out. Uh, whenever you download a new extension, you do need to refresh your tab. So it picks up that extension. So if right now I tried to use it, it's still working with the extensions that I had at the time I loaded it. I'm going to refresh this slack. So I can pick up our new extension here. And our moment of truth is going to be we're going to focus on this message.

36:46How I AI Host:And I'm going to hit my shortcut of control shift one. And we'll see did we did we nail it?

36:51Joe McCormick:Oh, look, this is our link black color, right?

36:54How I AI Host:Yeah, it's kind of interesting. So it's processing our link. We'll see did it work. So it kind of work. But we have JSON here, right? It's not it's not perfect. Uh, so let's, let's work on a one, one level of refinement here. So I'm going to take a, a quick snippet shortcut of, uh, this. So we're gonna take a screenshot of this and, uh, we're gonna send this back to cloud code and say, almost. So again, it'd be cool if we one shot it, uh, I've been a really cool demo. Um, but it's not a perfect one shot. So we'll make one slight tweak here. and I'm actually using a custom slash command I wrote to deal with screenshots.

37:35How I AI Host:So because I'm developing on Windows, but I actually run Claude code in this thing called the Windows subsystem for Linux, it doesn't have access to my Windows clipboard. So I can't do what everyone else can do, which is just like hit control V here and paste it. So I add a slash command here called paste image that uses some PowerShell shortcuts to pull images out of my clipboard and share them with Claude. And so I can take that snippet and share it. And again, this is similarly, I would copy a file and I'd save it in Windows and move it to Linux and then import it with an app mention. And I was like, there's got to be a better rate.

38:12How I AI Host:And I use the slash command now all the time for building stuff out.

38:15Joe McCormick:This is extreme software engineer stuff where you're like, OK, I run on this OS, but I run my terminal on this. And now I can't access my clipboard, but I still like it that way. So I'm going to write a little script to give myself a two word shortcut to make this happen.

38:35How I AI Host:And so it ported this and it just it drops screenshots in our in my TMP directory. So I just have to say, yep, please read it. So, again, it's it's saving those those two minutes every day adds up adds up fast. And so it's going to fix this little JSON piece here. And again, it was kind of close. It copyright content just didn't display it. Right. And so now it's going to go off and work on this for another second here. and we should hopefully have a quick update. And the nice thing is with Chrome extensions in the developer mode, there's just an easy one-click button where you will update and grab the latest copy of all of your extensions.

39:09How I AI Host:So if that's your work on multiple at a time or whatever, you can just hit that button and it's going to update for us. So we'll see it's finishing up here.

39:15Joe McCormick:And one of the things that it's doing, just I'm calling this out for people who are writing queries to OpenAI, it's moving the JSON out of the prompt, which it's saying, please return JSON. I think it's actually just returning JSON as a string in text. And it actually moved that to change the response object to being JSON. So then it can actually be read by the Chrome extension in a more structured way.

39:41How I AI Host:Control shift one. See if it works.

39:45Joe McCormick:We're doing drum roll. Beautiful.

39:49How I AI Host:We got it. Nailed it. So again, we've got these takeaways. We can now action on this. And I can decide, do I actually care that iterable added MCP? i do uh spoiler alert um but yeah again we did it uh i think under under 25 minutes here and is it working in your screen reader did the accessibility fully accessible um so this modals in general can be sometimes problematic um because a screen reader will sometimes read behind the modal but surprisingly although not a bunch of the web is not accessible if you tell some of the foundational models like please make this accessible the accessibility standards are actually incredibly well documented.

40:28How I AI Host:So they do actually a great job at this. So they use the right ARIA roles and make this modal have the right focus, not let you read behind it. So on the box, they're not going to make everything streaming accessible. But you say, hey, go do this, it'll gladly go follow the spec and make it accessible.

40:44Joe McCormick:So this is a meta question. And maybe before I get into the meta question, let's just recap for folks what we saw. So you built a Chrome extension that's focused to the web version of Slack. That Chrome extension that's running locally because you've toggled on developer mode in your Chrome settings will take a focused link that's shared by a colleague or somebody in Slack. It will go out. It will parse that link. We'll see if there's any links in it. We'll parse it. It'll take some key takeaways. The way you built this is you bopped into VS Code, you dictated a short PRD, you let AI kind of build that out, you made minor tweaks to it, but basically shipped it, you used Cloud Code, including some custom slash commands, and a Cloud skill specifically around building Chrome extensions, to then scaffold out that Chrome extension, you showed us Ctrl G in Cloud Code, where you can actually just modify prompts and inputs as code, which is much more efficient, both from an accessibility perspective and just general user experience perspective.

41:52Joe McCormick:And you showed us a custom screenshot. So you're very special, as I say, you know, unique snowflake software engineer environment can operate as if you as you want, even if there are some technical hurdles. And then now we have this great little extension that I want running on on my app. So this is great, Joe, I love this. I want to hop into some lightning round questions. And this has given me an idea of one that I really want to ask you, which is about MCPs. So one of the things that I think is so interesting about MCPs is it allows you to bypass all UI and just get to the bones of what a SaaS product does.

42:34Joe McCormick:And I can imagine that while there are lots of okay accessibles, enterprise software products, not all of them are building for maximum accessibility, either in their design or in their kind of underlying way they're implemented. Have you found MCPs and just that interface into some of these SaaS tools has improved accessibility for you, has not? What are your thoughts there?

42:59How I AI Host:I think the altered goal of mine is I would love to do everything in one place and not have to switch tools, like whether the context switch cost or just a switch cost. So having MCPs has been great for that. Luckily, I actually think lots of enterprise software surprisingly is being built pretty successfully. Like I want to really give strong kudos to like Google Docs. Google Docs for what it does is so crazy accessible. And the work that people don't know that goes in to make it that like every single thing that is being done is being communicated to the screen reader basically letter by letter via this like secreting the secret system that people don't know about called like ARIA live announcements is kind of crazy.

43:38How I AI Host:But I do find like, hey, I need to get something from three sites. Like that's kind of painful. Like, can I just use the notion mcp and cool docs mcp or gleam in there is great um particularly notion is one that is a little bit harder i think they they do their best from accessibility standpoint in some ways but there's a lot going on in a notion post a notion article so i think that's another example where it's like yeah i can just pull this down and work in the markdown version that's going to be a lot easier um and again i've got it's way easier to navigate with these like keyboard shortcuts and the folding features so i will pull down some notion posts and just be like dump this into a markdown file for me and then use my little code shortcuts to help navigate some of those pieces.

44:16Joe McCormick:Yeah, I love that. And so my second question, again, is around personal software and the ability to translate. Sort of as you said, you can take a pretty complex Notion page, turn it into markdown. That allows you to, you know, read and parse it in a much more efficient way. And so I think this ability to translate files or formats is a really exciting part of AI. And we've hinted at a couple things we've seen in this episode, a little bit of like image to text, a little bit of voice to text. But I'm curious for you, what are you most excited about in sort of like the multimodal world of AI? And, you know, what recently has come out that's, you know, caught your eye and made you excited?

45:00Joe McCormick:Or what are you hoping to see in the next couple months or years that you think could really open up stuff, either for you personally, or just as a product builder?

45:08How I AI Host:Yeah, I'll talk in the personal space. So I have, I have two kids, I have a five year old, and a three year old. And reading books to them is is a challenge. I don't know Braille, I've been trying to learn, but it's a hard skill to pick up at 33. And so I've memorized a handful of books, and I'll read those, but it's not really reading, it's fake, fake reading. But I a big shout out to the Gemini app and it's like live share features. I can now read any book. It sounds like me reading it, but me and my three-year-old Cole will sit on the couch. He'll bring a book over and I'll be like, Hey, let's, I can read this one or no Gemini can read this one for us.

45:43How I AI Host:And we'll turn the pages and say like Gemini next page and Gemini will read that page and then we'll turn to the next one and it'll read the content of that. And so I think just like equitable access to everything is, is great. And that piece is one thing that I was always afraid I was like, can I read stories? I can memorize stories. I can tell stories. But there is something to just like your son being like, I want to read this book. And you having to be like, sorry, I can't. And now that sorry I can't becomes like, sorry, I can with the assistance of so many different tools now. But I think the Gemini one is particularly useful.

46:14How I AI Host:And I found that one to be the strongest for just like easy sharing, just saying next page. It knows all the context. It immediately starts reading it. I have like metaglasses. I have the Chachapi T Pro. I've got all these things. But I think Gemini is doing the best job of it right now. And this is before me trying any of the Gemini Pro 3 that just came out to see if any of that makes it even better.

46:33Joe McCormick:Well, that is a very, very sweet story. And yes, I was just thinking I wish the Meta Glasses, which I love and use every day, would also help do a better job there. But it's awesome to hear that Gemini can add to that special time with kids, which, as you and I were talking before the show, we both are parents of boys. It's such a special time. So my last question is, when AI is not listening, and I'm curious if you type or if you speak this, what are your prompting techniques? Have you ever whisper flow yelled at your AI? Or, you know, do you have any tricks for us when AI or Claude gets really, really stuck?

47:17How I AI Host:like it's kind of i think a nerdy answer which makes sense for for me but uh i my typical mode is basically like clear content clear the context and uh and start fresh as much as possible i think i think a lot of people uh will try and like keep massaging it and being like if i just send this one extra prompt in this conversation it'll figure it out it's like no you just have to start from scratch and take the learnings that you have from the last time and so sometimes i'll be like this hasn't been going great. What did you what did you learn about this? Take that and feed that into the next prompt.

47:49How I AI Host:But most of I used to be like, let's start from scratch, something clearly got poisoned in this context. And we start from scratch, I feel like it just everything just feels smoother.

47:57Joe McCormick:I love it. Well, Joe, thank you so much for showing this. I think it's just one of those workflows that we haven't seen before. Everybody can find a use case. I am thinking of all sorts of little micro frictions in my own life, where a keyboard shortcut or two could really make things a little bit better for me. So where can we find you and how can we be helpful to you?

48:17How I AI Host:Yeah, so I mentioned at BabyList, BabyList is very actively hiring. And if you are somebody who likes using AI in your day-to-day building of software and you're a software engineer, we are Ruby on Rails and React Shop, but hiring across the board, all different levels. So check us out on BabyList.com. And personally, I'm on LinkedIn as well. So feel free, especially if you have any accessibility questions or any questions on some of the Chrome extension piece, I'm always happy to answer on LinkedIn.

48:45Joe McCormick:Well, thanks for joining Howie AI. Thank you. Thanks so much for watching. If you enjoyed this show, please like and subscribe here on YouTube, or even better, leave us a comment with your thoughts. You can also find this podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Please consider leaving us a rating and review, which will help others find the show. You can see all our episodes and learn more about the show at howiaipod.com. See you next time.