#268: Gregg Renfrew, Founder and CEO of Counter – Step back to move forward

23:41And I thought it was kind of fitting that it was on his birthday. And I was really emotional at the moment we closed. But I think what people think when they look at success, however it's defined, they look at leaders, they look at people who are in the public eye, they think that they feel differently, their lives are any different. But you wake up the next morning, it's kind of like the day after you get married, it's the same guy. It's the same exact guy that was your boyfriend like three months ago. Now he's your husband. I think it's the same thing. Like I felt like I was going to feel different, but I just felt like myself again.

24:13Like it didn't mean as much to me emotionally as I thought it would. It was just It's like, okay, we got to get back to work tomorrow. And that's something that people don't think. That's cool. You know, and if I have this right, you got fired as CEO only four months after selling the business. Tell us that story. Yeah, that was a bit of a show. I mean, I think that, you know, I went into it. We all went into it, both the private equity to whom I sold the business and then myself and my team. And we all went into it thinking that we were selling to financial sponsors so that we could ultimately take the company public.

24:50I wanted to be a public CEO. I'm not sure I still want to be a public CEO, but whatever. At the time, I really did. And I thought we were going to be the next generation leader in beauty. One of the things I felt that they were buying was me. I think they were really excited about working with me. But when we sold the company, it was concurrent with the world opening up from the pandemic. and consumers redirected their spend away from personal care and cosmetics and to fashion or to travel or whatever. And for people for whom the decision to be able to buy a nice face serum or buy a new pair of jeans, like not everyone, that's not a no-brainer for everyone.

25:25Some people have to make a choice, right? They don't have tons of disposable income. And so our business kind of faltered that summer. And four months later, they said that they'd made the decision that they needed a new CEO. And that was a devastating blow to me because I really felt I had done an exceptional job. I'd gone from zero to just shy of 400 million in eight years. I went straight up and we were still growing. So I thought, well, can I have a little bit more time? But that was a decision that they made. It was hard. Yeah. You know, they say that, you know, death, divorce and getting Terminator are the three biggest impacts on your life.

25:59I mean, they all are so shocking. You know, how did you deal with the fact that you'd built that business? You're still building the business. And people all of a sudden tell you you're not the person. I mean, admittedly, I probably didn't handle it very well. I was extremely emotional and extremely angry. I felt, you know, it wasn't fair. And I didn't, I didn't understand. I couldn't get my head around it, to be completely honest. I think I felt like I kept saying, could you, I just, I just give me a little more time. Like, this is the first time in 100 years that we've had something occur like this pandemic.

26:37Like, I think I can get it back. It was really, really hard. It was really humbling. It was really humiliating publicly. It was like, we just made this huge announcement. I'm like this unicorn entrepreneur, and it's a billion-dollar valuation. And like, I'm the next thing, and then I'm out. And I think that I could have handled myself better in retrospect, because I think that emotion, you know, and I now like have gotten better, like looking at the facts. in general as a CEO and saying, okay, these are the facts. Then the rest of it's your own story around it. But it was hard. It was really, really hard.

27:09And I've learned to be better about not getting so emotional now. Not perfect, but better. And one of the things I learned, and it would really irritate the hell out of me, you actually had a meeting with the incoming CEOs taking your job, and they canceled or didn't show up. What did that teach you? Just that feeling, that sensation, whatever the hell it was. Well, it taught me that there wasn't going to be room for both of us in the company. But I think, you know, what I learned from him, and I really mean this, is at the end of the day, when I think about what went down, I hold him more responsible than the private equity firm.

27:47I think they were doing their best in trying to protect their investment and that of their LPs. Not that they didn't make, we all made bad decisions. But I think that what I learned from him is that arrogance has no place in the business world. Arrogance has no place in the world. I really feel that strongly now. If you're not respectful of those that have the institutional knowledge, if you don't want to listen to the founder, the founder may be past their ability to operate a business. That may be true. But to not understand their vision, to not understand the context around certain decisions that you're looking at that seem like really poor choices, but maybe you don't know what was going on at that moment in time and what the pressures to the business were.

28:25I think it really signaled to me that he was arrogant and that he didn't think that I had value anymore in the business. It was a very patronizing move. And as you can imagine, it didn't sit well with me. But it was a good learning. You know, I've learned a lot from him. I got to ask you this, and I'm sure, I mean, I know how I would have been. Were you kind of happy to see the guy fail? You know, honestly, I want to see honest answer to that one. Well, okay, I'll answer it honestly. On one hand, of course, yes, it was a little bit of a, you thought you were better than me and you weren't. And on the other side, no, because with his failing came the failing of my company.

29:07It forced us into foreclosure. I lost a lot of credibility with a lot of people that had been sellers for the brand or purchases of the product. And I lost a significant amount of my financial stake because I was asked, as many founders are, to roll a significant amount of my equity over. And with that came a significant financial loss to me. So on one hand, yeah, because I thought, you know, you were so cocky. He is cocky. And it's not just towards me. He just was arrogant. And I think that that's just not a good way to be. So yes, I had a chuckle. He was French. I think I would refer to him as le baguette.

29:43I probably shouldn't say that publicly, but whatever. But then on the other hand, I was like, what a huge loss for everyone. And that made me so unbelievably sad for all the people we had served along the way. All the associates that had worked so hard didn't deserve that. And they came to the census and they asked you to come back. And how'd they convince you to come back? I mean, was that something you wanted to do or did you have to get your arm twisted or whatever that phrase is? Going back to, you know, how does it make you feel? I don't know. Have you ever gotten dumped by a woman in your life and, you know, you thought like you were in love with the person and they say like they're not in love with you anymore and then they come crawling back and And you're like, oh, and just when you're getting over them.

30:25I actually wrote a country song about that. It's called Backburner. Don't put me on the back burner because I'm tired of getting burnt by you. Okay, well, I literally say this to my kids. I'm like, just wait. If you play your cards right, I promise you, more times than not, they're coming back around again. If you freak out, they're not going to come. So I feel like I was just getting over it. It was like a great heartbreak for me. I mean, I was literally like, you know, I always said it was like selling the company And then that whole situation with the CEO is like, I'm totally in love with my husband, but he dumps me for like a younger, better model of me.

31:00And then I have to smile in front of the kids and the family at the wedding and pretend like it's all OK. And then I finally pull myself together, having cried for months and months and months and get on with my life. And then he's like, I want you back. And you're like, you've got to be kidding me. And that's kind of how I felt. It was like, wait, now you want me back? And so my first answer was no, no, thank you. I appreciate I'm flattered, but no, thank you. And then the board was really convincing. And I thought, look, I owe it to the community I served. I believe that clean is still worth fighting for.

31:27We have more work to be done. And I have a financial stake in the company. And I was really transparent about the reasons that I decided to go back in. And so I did. And I went back in as CEO in February of 2024 with a lot of hopes and dreams for the business. And you didn't just come back as CEO. You ended up buying the company back. Well, I started as CEO. And then the company immediately went into foreclosure because we were within a couple of months in breach of the debt covenants. I think the company was it was kind of a little too late. And I didn't realize that as much as once I got in there, I started to see, you know, I always said, like, I don't even think Bob Iger could have turned it around in that period of time.

32:05Like it was just we tried to find a home for the brand. It wasn't going to happen. We went into foreclosure. And then, yes, I made the crazy decision to buy the business like in 48 hours. I made the decision to buy the business out of foreclosure. As I understand it, you know, you made that decision. You got your family involved in the purchase. And how did you involve them in the process? Well, I think that my family has always been in. So first of all, I have a husband, Mark, and we've been together for 25 years. And so we work as a team. And you know this, you know, anyone that's been in a long-term partnership knows that one person doesn't make a decision because it has repercussions for everyone, whether that's in business or personal or both.

32:46So first and foremost, my husband had been supportive and we needed to have a conversation about whether or not we wanted to dip into our savings and buy the business back. The second thing is that my children had watched me do this their whole life. And Beauty Counter was a huge part of my children's livelihood. They were always participating in product development and helping me with things. And I, you know, I don't know, use them for, I don't know, marketing things or whatever. And so they felt, you know, they just said, mom, you've worked so hard at this. Like, you just can't let this die.

33:15Like, you've worked so, so hard. I think you should go for it. But I did have a family conversation because I knew when I went back into it, I was going to be insanely busy all over again. And they had just gotten used to me being around a little bit more. And that was a hard decision. But I think we made the right decision. And I did need the support of my family. So, Greg, you got to help me understand this one, you know, because this is kind of a complicated story here. You then buy the business back only to shut it down a few weeks later. Explain that one. So I bought the business in, I think, around April 20th of 2024.

33:51And we bought it, myself and my husband, with a small group of investors with a small amount of capital. What I realized within, I mean, within days is that it was going to cost us literally several million dollars a month just to run the technology. And the technology itself was broken. It required a team of something like 25 full-time people and then a multimillion dollar monthly fee. That in and of itself was a non-starter for the business. Like there was no path forward. And that's just one of the examples that I can use. And so I couldn't see a path to Brighton. So I made the incredibly difficult decision to shut it down because I felt that in order for the business to have a chance to live, it actually had to die first.

34:36I had to let go of what was, reimagine everything and come out with new and improved, more cost effective systems, et cetera. And it was a really, it was an excruciating decision because it was, it meant that I had to let go of all of these people who had served the company and do so without, without warning and without severance. There just was no money. And it was a really tough, tough decision. But it was ultimately, in my opinion, the only way we could move forward. You know, that unbelievably tough decision we've had to make. I mean, anytime you affect people's compensation and their jobs, I mean, it is hard.

35:09You know, what was your big learning on that that you could share with others on how to do that as effectively as you can, knowing there's so much pain? Well, first and foremost, to the best of your abilities, speak the truth. And when I say to the best of your abilities, I mean, they're always, you know, you've always got your lawyers saying, don't say this or don't say that. That's just corporate. That's the corporate world. But I think you have to try to put yourself in their shoes and try to lead and speak with compassion and understanding. Allow for them to be angry and frustrated and to vent and, you know, to speak disparagingly about you because they need to go through their process.

35:48And do the best job that you possibly can to support them in finding something new. I always try in earnest to help people move to the next chapter in a way that feels comfortable for them. You know, it's different in a situation where you're in foreclosure and have to do a radical thing like we had to do. It's another thing when you're letting go of an associate, I try to do it in a way that gives them enough breathing room and enough notice. But I am decisive. And I think like with anything in life, being really crystal clear in your communication and don't waffle and don't lead with ambiguity.

36:21Just recognize how hard it is, recognize how painful it is for them, but know that you're also helping them, not in a situation where your company's gone out of business. That's a different situation. But oftentimes, when somebody doesn't work, you're giving them the opportunity to find some place where they can be successful. And when you're not succeeding in your job, you don't feel very good, you know? And so I think it's like, where can we help you find a place where you're better suited, where your needs, where your strengths and attributes will be recognized and you'll feel really good about what you're doing?

36:51And I think that's important as a leader to help people do that. So you shut down Beauty Counter. And you talked about, you know, now you got a new chapter. Tell us about the new chapter. What was your plan? Well, I had no plan. I mean, I literally had no plan. I mean, I went back in as CEO. So I had a plan, right, which was to turn this old company around. I had lots of ideas. We then realized we couldn't do it. We shut it down. Then I thought, well, I mean, I don't know. I have no idea what the plan is. Like, this is not something that I was thinking about. So I had a good cry. I mean, I really did have a good cry.

37:27I remember sitting on the floor with one of my old partners. And I thought, oh, my gosh, what have I done? Like, what am I going to do? And, you know, then you sort of, I think as a leader, you start to, like, breathe and take a deep breath. And, like, okay, like, all right, let's lay this out one step at a time. You can't have a plan overnight, but you can chip away at a plan. And I did give myself and told the team that I kept on. we kept a small team on that I needed the summer to really think and that I welcomed their participation, but that I didn't, that I would have a plan and I will be able to clearly articulate a plan, but I need a little bit of time.

38:03And if they want to leave, I understand that. But if not, if they can give me some space and they can co-create this with me, I think that we have a shot at doing something really exceptional again. And so I took a couple of months, the summer of 24, to really think about, okay, what would Steve Jobs do in this moment? Like if you had the opportunity to strike twice, what would you do? How would you innovate? I mean, I literally read books and looked at past leaders and good decisions that have been made. I looked at sports teams. I looked at, I did look at Apple. I looked at other companies and what had they done well, you know, and things like streamlining product assortment, like, okay, doing less products, but do them better.

38:38Okay. What is our core messaging? What can we do that's innovative? Where has the market gone? I spent a lot of time thinking. And then ultimately, you know, started to iterate on a plan that I think, you know, I'm still, I'm still iterating, but I feel like I have a pretty clear vision now of what we can do. And you've launched this brand as Counter. You know, what's the story behind the new name? Well, first of all, I wanted it to respectfully nod to the past because we've always gone counter to the industry and we are counter to industry norms. And I like to kind of shake things up. I also, I was never completely in love with the name Beauty Counter.

39:11It served its purpose, but Counter was also limiting people like you who actually would like our products and be using our sunscreen or our body lotion. The minute the word beauty went in it, we lost half the audience right there. I wanted to give it a fresh start and I felt like the branding needed to be of the moment, the name needed to feel of the moment, but it also needed to reflect and respect the past while looking into the forward. I feel really good about the name. I think it's great. I'm super excited about it. You kind of alluded to this a little earlier. You said you went through a process where you looked at your product line, eliminated things.

39:44I think it's, you know, it's a SKU rationalization exercise, basically. And, you know, what was the process you used to figure that out? Well, first and foremost, I looked at two things. Number of units sold and revenue from those units. Well, actually, three. Those two things and also what the margins were per product. And one thing I learned very quickly in looking at the numbers was that 91 % of the revenue was coming from our top 50 SKUs. And we had something like 253 SKUs or something. So it was very easy to look at what needed to go. And that's going back to being non-emotional, being able to say, I know you really loved that whatever, but it's not selling.

40:25We're not going to keep doing this. So I looked at that. I also looked at, okay, who do we think we can serve in today's company? and at counter we're really leaning into an older demographic of 35 plus so certain of the products just weren't really appropriate for that age group they i really wanted to give a predominantly a woman um not not exclusively a woman i wanted them to feel seen by a brand i think they're often largely ignored in the industry yet they're loyal to brands and they're conscious of their health and they're focused on longevity and they have they have the disposable income to spend on a premium price point product and so you know we spent a lot of time and then i fought with the product development team who could not let go of certain products.

41:03And I was like, okay, are you willing to bet your job on this product? Like you cared that much. And then now we have bets on who's going to win on certain things that I wanted to bring back versus what they wanted. We'll see, the jury's still out and who's going to win that bet. But I think that, you know, you've got to go through it. You've got to cut the fat and you've got to like really focus on where can you do things well? Not just well, where are you exceptional and where are you mediocre? No, there's no room for mediocrity. There are too many products in the world as it is. You know, now that you're building this company again and you're doing it from the ground up again, what's something you're building into the culture that didn't exist before?

41:37In the old culture, I think I was way more emotional. And I think some people would say there was a bit of a culture of fear where I was demanding, but I get really upset when things go wrong. And there are times when I get upset. But I think one thing I'm trying to do is lead from a place of sort of a calm, rational place in a way that I didn't before. I always say, like, I am done with Monday morning quarterbacking. Like, I want people to know that they need to speak their truth and have the confidence to speak their truth, even if they disagree with me or anyone else. And then once we get through that conversation, if you haven't spoken your truth, you need to disagree and commit and we need to move on.

42:19because I think at the old company, there was a lot of like trying to be nice to each other, trying to please Greg because I'm a little bit scared of her. But then they'd leave the meeting and they'd start going, and that's just not a good way to build a culture. So I think it is about leading with confidence, being decisive, listening to everyone's information, but knowing that I want them to have rigorous discussions with me. And it's okay to disagree with me, but just be really certain, you know, when you're taking a stand on somebody that you feel really confident in that choice. That goes for me too.

42:48too. So I'm trying to create a new type of culture. It's hard. I think building culture and leading people is the hardest job in the world. And I think that culture gets defined by all the things that are happening outside of the office, too. Yeah. You know, it's always a sign, I'm sure you'd agree, that when you have a good leader, your team members, they want to keep working with you. How do you go about doing your best at that? What do you do intentionally or unintentionally, you know, to really make sure that you can keep the best of the best. And you went through that period where people had to hang with you, right, while you were figuring it out with them to, you know, to recreate the future.

43:30You know, what do you think kept your best people with you? Well, first of all, I think that my daughter, Georgie, said to me once, she said, what percentage of your team, mom, has come back? Whether they had previously left the company completely, or they were employees at the time when the company closed down, like, how many people are back with you? How many people decided to join you again? I said, at the time, and we've obviously grown the team, but at the time, I said, almost everyone came back. And she said, wow, mom, like, that's the greatest compliment of your life is the fact that all these people wanted to do it with you, not once, but twice, that they believe in you.

44:08I think I would be interested to hear what other people would say. I know people would say that I'm an inspirational leader, and I really They do lead from the heart. I would hope that they would say that I'm fair and I treat them with the respect that they deserve, that no task is too small for me to do, that I try to really lean in and be in the trenches with the troops. I don't believe in leading from afar. I feel like if, you know, I always say, I always come out of the bathroom and the office yelling at everyone. I'm like, why am I the one changing the toilet paper again? Don't you guys know how to, you open the box, the thing drops down, you throw it away, you put the new toilet paper rolling.

44:42I say this all the time, But I think like you've got to be there with your people. And I think that's, to me, what I would hope people would say I do. They would say I have really high expectations and that I'm really tough at times. But I hope that they also know that I'm doing my best job to make them better so that they can be successful in their lives and their career. That's a great leadership trait that I'm going to have to figure out how to get at when I have when I'm interviewing people. Will you change out the toilet paper? You know what's crazy? You'd be surprised how many people won't.

45:16I mean, that's the thing, though. At the end of the day, someone has to change the toilet paper, and someone needs to clean up the office, and someone needs to go return that package. And you know what? If you're not willing to do that, like, don't join my team. We're an all-hands-on-deck kind of company. And it's not to say that every person's job is to do every single thing. But if you're not willing to lean in, there are a lot of people, especially younger people today, that don't really understand that to build a successful entity, it requires a whole lot of hard work and a lot of that work isn't very sexy.

45:43It just isn't. You know, you have an internal commitment, which is not creating problems that our products will solve. Yeah. Well, for example, as a woman who's getting a little bit older, I mean, a wrinkle is not a problem. It's just a thing, right? A wrinkle is just a thing. It's a thing that happens as your age gets older. It's like, you know, a face with wrinkles is probably because you've smiled a lot and you've enjoyed life or you've gone to the sun and you've squinted. And I think that our industry, the beauty industry, has been built on fixing problems that don't really exist. They just made them into problems to make money off of them.

46:18Like if you have freckles, like what's wrong with having a freckle? Or what's wrong with having some fine lines around your face? Like I think at the end of the day, we're not, we're here to help you feel confident, to help your skin feel radiant and glowing. And yeah, like if you want to look sexy on Friday night, I'm going to give you a red lipstick if that's what you want. But I don't think that these things are problems. They're just part of life. And especially for women, we're also, this beauty secret thing, it's like pitting people against one another. It's like, oh, what is she wearing?

46:45What is she using that makes her look so good? Oh, not going to tell you. That's a secret. I just don't believe in that. I don't prescribe to that type of, I don't like it at all, to be totally honest. And it makes us feel shitty as women as we get older that we have a wrinkle. Well, that's just life. You know, you're very high touch, obviously. You're emotive. you know, you're highly empathetic. You really try to put yourself in the customer's shoes. You know, then we have this thing, artificial intelligence now coming on. And, you know, is that impacting your business or how do you think about it?

47:19And how is it shaping your leadership? You know, it's a really good question and it's a challenging, it's a bit of a conundrum for me because Beauty Counter was always a B corporation, which meant that we put into to emphasis people, planet, profit. It was a triple bottom line business and a mission, truly a purpose-driven organization. So fast forward to Counter, the new company, we still have that commitment to the health of the environment and to human health. It's interesting today because I look at AI as being so effective for things like customer support, like tracking orders and things that we used to use people to do that you can do so much more efficiently, or even looking at advertising and marketing and the dollars being spent.

47:58But then there's the environmental impact right now in today's world where we're sucking so much energy to power up this AI. And so we're trying to figure out what that balance is and where do we use it and when and why. And I think that I haven't quite figured it out. I know that it is part of where we're going. And so as a leader and a disruptor, as a company, you have to be utilizing it and using the power of it or you're going to be left behind. But how do we do so in a way that is also not out of sync with our mission? And I don't have all the answers. We have incorporated it into customer support.

48:29We have used it for things like, when I go to, I mean, you can, like my team would say, type in a speech that sounds like Greg Renfrew from Beauty Counter and update it to the new business she's in. And all of a sudden you get something that sounds almost exactly like you. And you're like, wow, that just saved me like six hours. I can tweak this. I don't know. It's an interesting, it's an interesting time. I'm excited to see where it takes us. And I think in the world of creativity, it's going to be enormously impactful. And how do you as a leader, how are you getting yourself up to speed so that you can lead in that area?

49:00Slowly. My children, I mean, I'm on chat GBT all the time, and I'm starting to learn about that. I've been listening to, you know, trying to listen to podcasts, asking other leaders. I went to a dinner that was for a new wearable last Sunday night with a group of unbelievably intelligent people. I realized, like, how far behind I was. And so I'm trying to get up to speed as quickly as I can. But, you know, it's not easy to keep up with things. It's really hard. So I got a long way to go, to be honest. You know, you're an entrepreneur. You build these businesses. And it happens on a relative scale fairly quickly.

49:34And so many times people look at the success that you have and almost describe it as this overnight success. You know, what would you tell people about the challenges of really building a business? Because nothing happens overnight. Well, first of all, my definition of overnight success is 10 years, 24-7. That's overnight success as far as I'm concerned. But I think that people glorify entrepreneurs and being a founder or being a business leader. And it's just a lot of hard work. And every single day, something goes wrong, like terribly wrong. You know, in the last week, we've had, I mean, in the last couple of weeks, for example, someone brought a ship in from China that was filled with our holiday packaging.

50:18and someone dropped it into the port, into the water. There goes our holiday packaging. Okay, well, that's not in the spreadsheet. Or, you know, someone that you really count on decides to go to another company or someone has a personal tragedy or something that you thought was gonna be a top seller for whatever reason just kind of misses or the manufacturing partner over-shears the serum and so you can't sell it. Like, this stuff happens every single day. And so I think that if you want to be an entrepreneur or a business leader, you need to buckle up And you need to know that you've got to ride with all of the challenges that you're faced with every day and try to focus on the things you can control and not worry so much, not worry too, too much about the things you can't control because there are some things that are just genuinely out of your control.

51:00What do you know now after 13 years and, you know, really going after it 24-7 that you wish you would have known back then? I mean, you know, what's been that big lesson that you wish you would have known a lot earlier in your career? I think that there are probably two consistent themes for me. One, being more ahead with respect to technology because I think it's ever-changing and so are the needs of consumers. It is hard to keep up. It's hard for everyone to keep up. But I think that being more ahead of it all along would have served me well. And I think the second thing is more, and I don't know if it's more because I'm a woman, but I think that I allowed for others to influence my decisions way too much in the past.

51:45I wasn't, I would let people overshadow my gut instinct because they either had more experience with me or they came on really strongly in a meeting or I was trying to keep people happy. You know, as a woman, if you're strong, you can be considered to be tough or a bit. But the reality is you need to be decisive as a CEO. And if your gut is telling you that, for example, years ago, I said we should be selling products bundled, makeup products bundled as kits. Make it easy for women. They've got like five minutes. Women aren't spending hours and hours putting on makeup. Bundle it all together and sell to them in a package kit.

52:17My chief operating officer at the time said no one's going to buy makeup bundled. I'm thinking now why am I listening to a 45-year-old man? Like what does he know about what women want, right? And I listened to him and we didn't do it. And now it's like they're everywhere. They sell like hotcakes. And I think I should have listened to my gut. So I think that I'm way stronger today than I was as a younger woman, whether that was at the beauty counter date or even, you know, 25 years ago. Have confidence in yourself. If your gut is telling you something more times than not, you should follow it.

52:44You know, this has been so much fun. I want to have some more with my lightning round of questions. So are you ready for this? Here we go. The three words that best describe you. Gregarious, transparent, authentic. If you could be one person for a day beside yourself, who would it be? Tom Brady, for sure. Who would it be? Which I've told him. Come on. We're all in that. Big admiration society for him. What's your biggest pet peeve? All the things my husband does. Like, oh my gosh, there's so many. Like loading the dishwasher in a messy way and slamming the door in the morning when I'm trying to sleep.

53:24Like, there are a lot of those little things. That's a marriage thing, though, I think. Love them dearly, but lots of little peas that way. What's the counterproduct that you just couldn't live without? Hands down, vitamin C serum. What's a piece of feedback you've never forgotten? A VC that invested in my company, The Wedding List, and she said to me, I need to look for a real CEO. You are not a real CEO. and fast forward many, many years when Mike Stone from TPG Growth, who was my largest investor in Beauty Counter, said, I want you to know that you are a formidable CEO. I would put you in front of, I would put you alongside the best of the best.

54:04It was the greatest compliment in my life because that statement early on really made me feel that I wasn't confident, that I wasn't really good at my job. What's something you've been curious about lately that has nothing to do with work? faith, really exploring faith and my relationship to it and trying to understand the intangible side of it is something that I've been on an exploratory path on over the last number of years. What does that mean for me in my life? My values, my spirituality, my religion, like all of that. It's something that I've been thinking about a lot over the last couple of years.

54:41What's the one thing you do just for you? Absolutely, blast the tunes in my car unapologetically. no matter who's with me. I love to listen to loud music every single day of my life. It makes me happy. It calms me down. It gives me hope. I just love it. Besides your family and friends, what's your most prized possession? Probably the ring I purchased for myself when I sold Beauty Counter. I went and I slurged on this beautiful ring that it's just different and it's mine and I bought it with my own money and I will hold onto it for the rest of my life. My daughters are already fighting over it And I'm like, I'm not dead yet.

55:19I might just like bring it with me. I'm not sure I'm going to give it to anybody. If I turned on the radio in your car, I know I'd hear loud music, but what would I hear? Eminem's song, like, Lose Yourself. Like, if you have one shot, one opportunity, like, that's a pump song for me. And also a really old song, Bittersweet Symphony by The Verb. Like, there's a couple songs that I just play over and over and over again. I just never get sick of them. What's something about you few people would know? I'm an incredibly sensitive person. What's one of your daily rituals, something that you never miss?

55:52Taking a bath. Although right now I'm in a rental because of the fires, but I take a bath before bed every single night. It calms me down. All right. We're out of that lightning round. That was fun. Just a few more questions. We'll wrap it up. You've been deep in the beauty industry. What would you say to women about what beauty really is? I think beauty is not what you think it is. I think beauty is, it's not about how you look. I think it goes well beyond that. And I think that everyone has been marketed to, for years, by an industry that is not putting them first. And so to me, beauty is about living a healthy lifestyle, having confidence in yourself, and yes, looking your best, doing the most with what you've been given.

56:40But it's not at face value, just makeup and a red lip and a perfect blow dry. Like, that's just not beauty. It's the whole picture. It's your whole life. It's the sleep. It's the water. It's the exercise. It's the confidence. It's the friendships. It's your own. It's your value. And it's not what people think it is. That's so surface level. What do you see as your unfinished business, Greg, you know, both for Counter and you personally? I think for Counter, it is really about taking a leadership position in beauty again to create, help create a definitive standard for clean to really, because what's happened over the last number of years is since I stepped out of the market because I was no longer with the company and all these other brands emerged and the retailers knew that they had to deal with clean beauty, they all created their own standards as a clean.

57:32If you go to Walmart or Target or Sephora or Ulta or grocery store, everyone defines it differently. And so I think that we owe it to the consumer and to the brands to set a definitive standard. And so I think from a business standpoint, I think that's a really important one. I think for me, I know this sounds crazy because I'm now 57 years old, but I feel like I've barely scratched the potential of what I can do on this earth. And for me, the thing that I'm most passionate about is the emotional and economic empowerment of women, powering up women, not in any way, not side by side with men, because so many men have played such an important role in my success in business and in my life.

58:07But I really want there to be a more equal balance out there. And so I'm going to dedicate the rest of my life to trying to power up more women and do it in partnership with men so that the world feels more even-keeled than it does today. And I think I, look, I think I've got a long way to go. And I think I have a lot more that I can achieve. I hope so. Well, I know you will. And, you know, you persevered through so much. You know, what would the toast be about? The perseverance. And now here you are with Counter, this brand. I got to ask you, how's it going? I mean, are you happy? Sometimes I'm happy.

58:40Some days I think, what the hell was I thinking? You know, I had a pretty good life. I didn't have to do this. I think that it's going well. I think it's been harder than I thought it would be. It's been much harder than I thought it would be. And I think that's because one of my kids said this the other day. Like you are back to being a startup. It's a new company, mom. You just think that you thought you would turn it on and it was just going to do, you know, a million dollars of sales a day right out of the gate. And it hasn't. It's going well and we're profitable and we're building on it. But I think it's been so much harder than I thought it would be.

59:11And so I think that part has been challenging at times. And, you know, honestly, it's made me scared. Like sometimes I doubt myself. Like, can I do it again? On the other side of things, I think about the opportunity I've been given and like having a clean white piece of paper upon which to build, taking the core attributes and tenets of an old company and then getting to chart a new course, like that's a once in a lifetime. And so I'm really invigorated, encouraged and excited about it. I know it's not gonna be easy, but I do now have the confidence that we can do it. And I'm excited about it.

59:43Fantastic. Last question here. What's one piece of advice you'd give to anyone who wants to be a better leader? Listen more. Leaders like to hear themselves talk. I do too, but if you're not listening to your team, to the people on the front lines, to your customers, so if you're head of a retail brand and you're not talking to the people that are at point of sale, that are busing the tables, that are serving the clients in the stores, if you're not listening to customer support lines, if you're not understanding what your customer wants from you and you're not listening to your team members, you're not going to be a very effective leader in today's world.

1:00:18You just aren't. Listening is a powerful tool. And Greg, I have to tell you, I've enjoyed this conversation so much. Thank you. You are an incredible leader, so talented. You have so much energy. And, you know, you've got a real mission to make a difference in this world in terms of your unfinished business and what you can do with your company and also with yourself. And I've got a daughter and two granddaughters. And, you know, let's power up those women. Let's go. Absolutely. And it's great to have a great leader like you on this show. Well, thank you so much for having me. It's such an honor to be here.

1:00:50And I'm super, I'm glad we had the time to sit down and talk.

1:00:58David, what a woman. As the kids would say, Greg is a real one. Well, she's definitely a great leader and definitely making big things happen and definitely has a lot of courage. It's one thing to build a company. It's another to, you know, sell the company. It's another to buy the company back and then no longer run the company and then refound the company under a new brand name, which was close to Beauty Counter, but is now Counter, which is to, I agree, much simpler and better name than Beauty Counter. Because if you go to the beauty aisle, you know you're in the beauty aisle. So Counter kind of stands out.

1:01:42The packaging is better. So I think she's got to figure it out. She is so open to about how humiliating that whole process was for her. And I just love how clear it is that she is a woman and a leader who is super in touch with her emotions. And it's obvious that transparency is a huge part of how she leads and and what is, you know, one of her guiding sort of principles and restarting counter. But she also recognizes when it's time for some emotional distance between you and the company or you and the people that you're leading or you and the mission. And I love that while she is so in tune with how she's feeling about things, she also knows when to kind of detach.

1:02:25And I want to know, David, how do you know when to lean in emotionally to something and when to separate yourself from what you're feeling? Well, that's a really challenging question, Kula. But I want to, first of all, talk about her humiliating experience. You know, the humiliating experience that she talks about is that after basically four months of being the CEO of this company that was acquired by a private equity firm, they come in and tell her that she's not the CEO. And this is her company. This is a company she built, and she thought it was doing well, so she was totally shocked by it.

1:03:03And then they put in another person as the CEO, and she has a meeting with this person as the founder and he cancels it on her. And now she's like really humiliated, really torn up. She's not even being listened to as a founder. The person doesn't even want her advice. I mean, that is like unbelievably challenging. And she was quite open in explaining that it led to a lot of tears. And she's a very emotional person. and she talked very openly about the fact that she had a lot of tears in this whole process. And she learned that maybe have a little bit more emotional distance and not get so tied up in some of these things.

1:03:52But you asked me the question, you know, when do you lean in on being emotionally involved? You know, my view is always this. Just follow your heart. follow your gut you know i mean i'm a guy that cries at the waltons okay when they say good night john boy you know whatever you know i mean i cry i cry at a lot of things okay and but i don't mind crying you know if i cry it's because i feel it and now i don't think you want to be overly gushy or anything like that but there'll be times when i give a speech where my eyes would moisten and people know I'd be on the verge of, but they felt the emotion.

1:04:37But I think when you're so emotional, it gets in the way of the product. It gets in the way of the work. It gets in the way of your leadership. That's when you got to step back and say, hey, I got to figure out how to handle this better. And I think that's what she learned. I think she's very open about the fact she was too emotional and she's learned how to moderate it. but forget all that. This is a person that can create a brand, build a brand, and has the courage to rebuild a brand. I mean, you strip all the emotion away. This is a high-talent leader who knows how to make things happen. And yeah, we all learn a lot of things along the way, but I think we can learn more from what she did in terms of how she runs her company, how she rethinks her business, and why she had the courage to restart it.

1:05:31I read something the other day that was talking about, you know, how to sort of let your emotions inform things, but don't let them be the thing you make decisions on. And it said, emotions are not facts. So I think, you know, for me, I'm also a very passionate emotional person as well. I too cry all the time. And I think that that little paradigm shift was so helpful for me because a lot of times we feel sad or angry about something, then that becomes the fact of the situation. And it's just not true. So we can let our emotions kind of come and go while also staying tethered to the reality of what's actually happening.

1:06:10Yeah. I think you have to have the emotional detachment at the right times. Okay? When it's time to make a really key decision, you got to get the emotions out of it. You know, you want to listen to your gut, but you want to make sure you get all the data, get everybody's opinions, and then you try to approach it, the decision, with a fresh view of the reality that you face. And I think that's really important. And one of the other things is that people talk about emotional detachment being something you have to have with the people you lead. I've always thought that was a bunch of bunk. I mean, I always felt that, you know, I wanted to be emotionally involved with my people.

1:06:55I wanted them to know me. I wanted to know them. I wanted to be close to them. I wanted them to be able to share with me. I wanted to share with them. And that means you have to make yourself vulnerable. And that means that, you know, having an emotional detachment with your people just never really fit the bill for me. You know, because I wanted that two-way street. I wanted that relationship. And, you know, one person can't be detached and the other isn't. Right. That's my view. And, you know, I know a lot of people feel differently than me. It's also part of your superpower. So I think there's a high level of self-awareness, too, that you know that that's how you really can build trust and motivate people.

1:07:38Maybe so, but that works for me. And I think the most important thing is that you find something that works for you. and that that authenticity is what will build the trust. But I do believe that, you know, building a powerful relationship requires a vulnerability and an emotional connection that you can't have by thinking, hey, I'm the president, I'm the CEO, I got to be detached so I can make the tough decision. I think you get detached when you make the decision, but not necessarily in the process. Speaking of being vulnerable, David, But, you know, obviously this whole story about beauty counter to counter and Greg left and then she come back.

1:08:20It's crazy. But at one point in the episode, Greg buys back the business only to have it shut down. She said to live, it actually had to die first. That's such a powerful line. I'm curious. Is there a story, David, from your career when you had to kill something and let it die in order for it to live? And how did you talk about that with your team? I think most of the things I killed, I didn't want to have come back. You did not want them to reincarnate. But what she's saying here is that she had a brand that she knew for it to maximize over the long term, she's going to have to shut it down so she could rebuild it the right way.

1:09:01She also talked about the process she used to do that with her people. She said, hey, you know, I don't have all the answers right now about how we're going to come back, but we are, and give me some time, and together we'll figure it out. And I like that, but she knew that where she was at was untenable for the long term in terms of maximizing the potential. She might have been able to struggle and do okay, but she doesn't want to do just okay. She wants to do great, and hopefully she made the right decision, and we'll find out. We sure will. Just happened in 2025, so, you know, we'll see. David, one more sort of theme that I'd love to just get your take on.

1:09:42When Greg was replaced as CEO of Beauty Counter, she talks about struggling with that person that replaced her because she just thought that he was arrogant. And I love when she says that arrogance has no place in the business world. But, you know, let's be honest, you're probably going to work for someone who's arrogant at some time in your career because it's just kind of the world that we live in. I want to know for the people out there who might be working for someone who is arrogant, how do you sit them down and tell them that they're arrogant without it feeling like you're just calling someone a jerk i don't know the real answer to that one i mean i've i've i never worked for somebody who is like you know arrogant thank god i never had that when i was in the agency business i i had arrogant clients who had a way of belittling people and there were people who worked for him, people who worked in the advertising agency, whatever.

1:10:37But I was coming up in my career and at that point in time, I wasn't in any position to tell him how arrogant he was because he was the type of guy who could have fired me. So I think you're in a really tough situation when that happens. But if you work with someone and you're with them day to day and they have an arrogant tendency. You know, I think the way you can be heard is to do your job so well that they're going to listen to what you have to say. But I think it's, I remember what Pat Kelsey, the coach for the University of Louisville basketball team said, you got to crush it where you're at.

1:11:19I think if you crush it where you're at, then you earn the respect and the right to maybe give a person some feedback in a special way. And the feedback model I always believe is, hey, here's what I appreciate about you. You have all these great tendencies. And here's how I think you can be even more effective. You know, you may not realize this, but you're a bit arrogant. And it comes off that way sometimes. And I know that you don't want to come off that way. And that's why I'm sharing it with you because you don't want to be that way. I know you don't want to be that way. And maybe he does, or maybe she does, but you know, but you know, you kind of shame them into accepting the feedback and hopefully doing something with it.

1:12:01Well, you said you didn't know how to answer that question and you damn sure just did. So it probably took me longer than it should have. No, I love it. That's so helpful. David, what's one thing from your conversation with Greg that you're going to take with you into your leadership and your life and your work? Well, I think if you are powerful and you are in a position where you have responsibility, you never stand up anybody. Yeah. I mean, the fact that that person canceled the meeting with the founder and didn't reschedule it said that that person said to the founder that she didn't count.

1:12:43and I mean I've always tried to show people that they count and they matter to me but that just reinforces a deep down belief that I have is that you don't stand people up you don't you don't you don't belittle them you you know you you honor and respect everybody David another fantastic episode I freaking love Greg such a good conversation well thank you so much for joining another episode of How Leaders Lead. Stay tuned for next week and we'll see you then.