#275: Ania Smith, CEO, Taskrabbit – Take risks that teach you something

27:09Making a decision, especially if the decision is reversible. Quicker, I think, is more important than waiting for more data that may or may not provide more certainty.

27:20David Novak:You mentioned earlier that one of your core values is being bold, and I would imagine doing the right thing for your customers is right up there. Maybe the wording isn't exactly it. What's something that you're trying to build into the culture that's relatively new that you think is going to be a requirement for you taking the taskers to a whole different level? So I think it is about being bold. It is about feeling safe enough to really try a lot of things that may or may not work and knowing that it's okay because that's the only way you can learn and actually try and do better next time. And I have a lot of work to do on that as well, right?

28:00Often I don't wanna let go of something. We try something and the experiment didn't do what we thought it was gonna do. And, you know, if I still believe that's the right thing, then maybe I'll try to influence it and say, well, what if we tried it this way or that way? And that's not really always the best answer. Sometimes just letting go and moving on and trying something new is the right answer. And so understanding what it means to be bold and how to take risks and how to be okay when they fail, I think it is something that we're really trying to build into the culture because this concept of speed is really important.

28:39And, you know, as we get bigger and we did over three million jobs last year, which is a lot of jobs. It's easy to sort of get a little bit stuck in this analysis paralysis as opposed to making decisions quicker.

28:52David Novak:You know, so you're becoming a bigger and bigger company every day. How do you keep a big company small? I mean, how do you wipe out big company-itis? I think you take the best from some of the big company stuff and you, you know, you kind of forget the rest. I think not all big companies are bad companies. There are many things that are really good, but we still have to be nimble. There's always a spectrum. And so there are processes and systems and so on. And it's very easy to kind of get very sort of suckered into those as we become bigger. But I keep reminding the team that we still have a lot of flexibility.

29:30We can make exceptions. We don't have to have a process or a rule or something for every single thing we do. We still need to be very nimble in how we make decisions and how we execute and learn quicker and quicker. And I think that's sort of the core thing of trying to figure out how to keep learning at a faster pace than your next competitor.

29:54David Novak:And one of the things I know every leader now is trying to get up to speed on or lead in the area is the sole area of artificial intelligence. You know, how are you personally using AI to make you a better leader? Of course. Well, I think like most folks, I am there on chat and then Gemini constantly. Not just, I think I originally started with, you know, help me rewrite this in a simpler, clearer way. I'm more likely to use it now as a bit of a tool to let me think strategically a little bit more. I also use it to prep for big calls. I use it to prep for these types of interviews. I use it to prep for a lot of bigger events.

30:40I can have a conversation and say, hey, I am coming on David's podcast. Tell me, what do you think are some of the key themes that I should be thinking about and so forth? These are, and I can have a live conversation, which is really helpful. But that's my individual productivity, being able to build gems and being able to, you know, simplify the more mundane tasks that we all have to do. But what I'm really thinking a lot about is not just individual productivity being increased. I'm also thinking about just some functional work that we can do. Of course, CS is a perfect example or customer service.

31:18And this is where we're seeing a lot of benefits. You know, engineering, other functionalities have a lot of things going for them from AI. But where I'm starting to spend a lot more time and thinking about is how do we use the large language models and really even small language models to help us drive revenue more. So and what that really means is to help the customer have a better experience. So to provide, you know, more seamless experience, to provide more information that is needed for them so that they're much more likely to find someone who they need to help them. And so that's the more exciting part of AI.

31:56David Novak:You light up when you start talking about AI. How do you create that kind of enthusiasm across the organization? You know, it's like a change. It's going through a change curve and it's different for everyone. And, you know, like I coming back to my kids, I have some who are just very eager and curious. Some I make it sound like I have hundreds of kids. I only have three, you know, but then I have, you know, one of my children who like any change seems to cause just a lot of stress. And I think, you know, it's similar for everyone in the organization. Some people are very open and excited and they want to try and they want to learn.

32:35and we have AI Power Hour. We have all these tools and we have all these learning opportunities to learn more. And then there are people who are more sort of reserved and it's going to take a little bit of time for them to adapt to these new technologies. And that's okay, but we are all heading in that direction. So it's not as if at some point we'll say, well, that was kind of fun, but we're no longer going to do that. It is about how do we get ourselves thinking in this mindset and how are we more and more likely to start using these tools to become more productive, to work smarter. And then, again, most importantly, to provide a better experience to our customers.

33:20David Novak:I've heard you say that TaskRabbit feels like the place you were meant to be. Explain. It feels like such a right home for me, such a great role, because it takes into account sort of everything from the experiences I've had on marketplaces, especially working with people, right? We're connecting a person to a person. But then I also have some of the retail experience from Walmart. And then, of course, we're owned by IKEA, which is a company based in Europe. I grew up in Europe. I've also worked and lived in Europe since then in my adulthood. And so all of these things mashed up together, I think, make this the right world for me.

34:04But I think more than that, if you kind of peel the layers, it is about just having the passion to help people like our taskers. And that's when I come back to my childhood. It is really exciting to feel like this past year, there were millions of tasks that we completed by thousands and thousands of taskers who got to earn this incremental income. And that is really motivating to me and, you know, hopefully my team as well. I think it's a great place to be. And I feel great every week when we look at our tasker earnings and how much have they earned this week? And is it more or less than the week before?

34:46And it's exciting to understand that we're making a difference in people's lives. Our mission is to transform lives one task at a time. And I feel that every day we get to live that mission.

34:58David Novak:And now, you know, you're an experienced CEO, you know, but when you look back, you know, what was the what was the biggest challenge or maybe the most difficult tasks? No pun intended that you had to had to really step the learning curve on? Oh, it's, it's, I'm still learning and there's so much more to learn. I would say that probably one of the biggest things was making some decisions too slow and making others too fast and not understanding the difference between the two and why I should slow down on some decisions and actually go faster than others. And so definitely that's been a learning.

35:41Really, my job as a CEO is to do a few things and to do them really well, right? The first one is to set the vision. Like, I really have to have a plan. I would say that in the first few years, the plan was very single, which was to do certain work with, to integrate us more with IKEA because it was our partner and our parent. But I think over the time, we've developed a much more strategic plan, which I'm very, very excited about. The next thing is really being able to execute and execute really well. And so that's all about setting the right culture and really making sure that we have the right team in place to build on the plan that we have set out.

36:22And then finally, having to be able to communicate all of that really well to our teams. I think communication is really important. And I don't know that I've done very well on that every time. So still a lot of learnings there as well.

36:37David Novak:You mentioned the importance of team and people. What's a time when you didn't have all the answers and your team taught you what great leadership is all about? Oh, that's like every day. Every day I learn from my team. And every day it's not necessarily the same lessons. It is different people bring in something different to the table, right? I've got someone on my team who's fantastic, super smart, but he is a bit of a disruptor, right? So his ideas are always sort of can be a little bit disrupting, but they make me think more than normally. So it's great to have that kind of person on your team because it just helps you think about problems a bit differently.

37:24You know, I've got people on my team who are very strong and able to give me feedback, which is really, really needed. It's a gift. And it's great that so many of them choose to sort of pull me aside afterwards and say, maybe you can do that better next time. And that's okay, because that is really the only way I'm going to learn. And so there are many lessons from my teammates every day. And I really cherish that.

37:53David Novak:You know, has there been something that you've learned about human motivation that a lot of leaders consistently get wrong? I'm not sure that a lot of leaders get wrong, but I think it is really important to understand that everyone on your team is likely motivated by very different things. and to understand what it is that motivates them then helps you, I think, be a better leader to them. Because for me, the best reward is really seeing people on my team grow and develop. And it is really the best part of my job. But in order to do that, I have to understand what motivates people. And some people get motivated by title, some people by money, some people by the scope of their work, some people by the flexibility of their job Or, you know, there's so many things that motivate people and understanding what it is and what makes them tick and being able to provide them with the opportunities that allow them to shine best and in the things that motivate them to do their best work.

38:58It's really hard, but it's by far the most rewarding part of my job.

39:02David Novak:You know, looking back, what do you think is the most meaningful recognition you personally ever received? and what did it teach you about how people want to be seen? You know, it was early on in my career and we were in a big meeting and I was by far the most junior person in that meeting, like by leaps and bounds. And, you know, it was some big meeting talking about, I don't even remember what it was. But at one point, the most senior person in the room, who was a CEO at the time, looked at me and said, Anya, what do you think? And I was kind of shocked that he would even care. I didn't even know he knew I was there, let alone that he knew my name, let alone that he asked me what it is that I thought.

39:47And I felt very heard at that moment. And it's a great lesson that I need to keep repeating to myself because I think at the end of the day, everyone wants to belong and they want to feel heard. They want to feel like their contributions matter. And I think showing that to people by being this leader who can listen and allow people to be their best selves is the hardest part. And so that was a great lesson very early on in my career.

40:21David Novak:And a great story. I love that story. You know, what's the most powerful recognition that you've ever given to someone else? You know, we were working on a project at Airbnb and it wasn't going very well. but we had a great breakthrough because this person decided to be very creative and could have actually gotten in trouble for their creativity. But I pulled him aside and said, well, I love that you thought about this so differently than the rest of us. And who cares? You know what? We'll just do this and then we'll ask for forgiveness later. And I love that you did this. And this person was quite junior and he got so excited.

41:01Like I could see it in his eyes because I think he was a little bit worried because it was kind of going out on a limb. And I knew that this had given him the momentum to keep going. And so it's really, again, the most rewarding part of my job.

41:16David Novak:Awesome. That's great. It's been so much fun. And I want to have some more with my lightning round of questions. So are you ready for this? I am. The three words that best describe you? Lively, curious, and ambitious. If you could be one person for a day besides yourself, who would it be? I would love to be like a dancer performer on stage somewhere. Your biggest pet peeve? When someone on my team comes to complain to me about someone else on our team, and then I ask, have you spoken to that person? And they hadn't yet. I don't like that. Me either. What's something you'd only know about Poland if you're from there?

41:58You know, on Monday after Christmas, after Easter, it's this day called Schmingus Dingus, which is essentially like it comes from this tradition, I think, of baptism around Easter. But what you do is you dump water on people and like buckets of water. And so kids play with like toys, water. But as you get older, you do buckets of water and people get soaked. And it's a very fun tradition. It's usually still cold in April, but it's a fun, fun day. It's a celebration.

42:29David Novak:You've lived in South Dakota, Poland, Arizona, China, London, San Francisco. What place taught you shaped your leadership the most? You know, I lived in Kenya for a little bit of time and I ran a cashew processing plant. And I spent a lot of time teaching people there how to use Excel. and I think one of the things about leadership that is really important is having the patience and the grace to be able to really listen to people and I think there was just such a big gap of learning and yet having the patience to do that, I think it was really important and it definitely taught me huge lessons.

43:18David Novak:What's the most creative TaskRabbit job you've ever seen someone post? I don't know, but the very fun jobs are always waiting in line. So for crazy things, like I just read in the New York Times how there's sample sales and these people line up all night in tents and wait to go have a chance to buy a sweater or a dress. And a lot of taskers get hired for this in order to wait in line for hours and hours and hours on end. I love it. What's something you've been curious about lately that has absolutely nothing to do with work? I spend a lot of time thinking about affordable housing and the NIMBY and the NIMBY movement and what we're seeing in our governments and really especially it's a lot of it has to do with local governments and we're seeing a lot of change and mayors across the country.

44:16And I think a lot about this concept of abundance by Ezra Klein in his book. And there's a lot of work that we need to do as a country in order to, I think, make more chairs because we kind of have this musical chairs game and there's just not enough chairs at the end for everyone to have a place to live.

44:38David Novak:What's the one thing you do just for you? I read a lot of news every morning. And then I follow certain writers and really enjoy reading some of the long form pieces that they put out. And it's one of my favorite pastimes. If I turned on the radio in your car, what would I hear? NPR. What's something about you that few people would know? That I know very little about pop culture. What's one of your daily rituals, something that you never miss? I think working out, I generally try to get a little bit of a workout in almost daily. As I'm getting very old, it feels like it's something very necessary.

45:22David Novak:All right. We're out of the lightning round. Great job. I got a few more questions. I'll let you go here. You know, I understand you and your husband have a point system used to balance your career and home life. Tell us about it. We do. And it was just kind of serendipitous how it came about. But then again, when you are talking to an ex-consultant and an ex-banker, maybe this is what happens. But when our first child was born, I took a bunch of time off. My husband did just a little bit of time. And then we kind of started talking about whether or not we can continue to afford to live in London because it was so expensive.

46:00And we decided that the only way we can do that is if one of us goes back to these professional services, consulting or banking. And we kind of looked at each other and decided that neither one of us wanted to do that. And then we started talking about why that is. And then we decided that really generally, what does that mean for our family and how much time we spent with our family? And so we rated every job to be either a one, two, or three, meaning a one, you're kind of barely working or maybe part-time working. A two is quote unquote normal job. You're working nine to five. Some travel. sometimes you have a big project, but generally you're home at five and you can fix dinner for your kids.

46:41And then a three is sort of a crazy job where you're on the road all the time, where you're working 60, 70, 80 hour weeks and so forth. And we decided that between the two of us, we really should never go above four and a half. You know, maybe sometimes temporarily hit a five, but it shouldn't be a permanent state. And if we are getting close to a five, then one of us probably needs to make a change. And so we've tried to live by that. And it's definitely been a way for us to think about when, you know, there was a lot of work that comes with raising a family and a lot of fun times that we don't want to miss.

47:21And so in order to do that, we kind of have this framework.

47:26David Novak:You walk the talk. I mean, not many people take that gap year and you took it. You know, that's a great example. You know, last question here. What's one piece of advice you'd give to anyone who wants to be a better leader? Be curious and learn to listen. Anya, thanks so much for being on the show. I appreciate it. Thank you for having me. It's been great.

47:50David Novak:David, what an inspiring conversation. I also would like to be friends with, I want to be friends with everyone we interview, but she is a lady who just has such an interesting story. I I can't believe that she moved to the U.S. when she was 12. She's now worked at Walmart, Airbnb, and she's the CEO of TaskRabbit. Her story is just fascinating. Yeah, she came here as an immigrant from Poland, moves to South Dakota when she's 12, doesn't have the language, knows nothing about the United States of America, and started to adapt. And, you know, I think this is a great example of how we all, as people and leaders, can learn from going into new environments, you know.

48:29David Novak:I related to her very much, not because, you know, I couldn't speak English here in the United States, but I related to her because I lived in many different places when I grew up. I lived in 23 states by the time I was in seventh grade. And, you know, when you have to go into new situations, you learn how to work through anxiety that we all have. So, you know, we all go into rooms that we don't know everybody. We go into situations where we don't necessarily have the answer. All these things create anxiety. And when you put yourself in new environments and force yourself to do new and different things and meet new and different people, you're just up in your game as a leader and a person.

49:09David Novak:And obviously, she learned a lot by doing that. And, you know, it's great to see, you know, a great leader and especially a female leader, you know, rise the ranks coming in in a manner that she did. I was very impressed with that. I love that as a key takeaway from that conversation, put yourself in new environments because you learn a lot about what you're capable of. And it also forces you to dig deep and really understand who you are and what you stand for. Because if you walk into a new environment and don't know anybody, and perhaps you don't even know the language, you really do have to fall back on who you are and what you know that you're good at.

49:45David Novak:So I love that as a key takeaway, put yourself in new environments and learn more about yourself and how you want to show up. Yeah. And speaking of self-development, you really got to know yourself to grow yourself. And I think that's another major key takeaway from our discussion with Anya is that she actually took a gap year when she was, I think she was running operations at Airbnb. I mean, she was a very, very top leader. I'm sure she was in a position where she could potentially become the CEO there. but she knew somehow in her DNA that it was time for her to step back and, you know, take some time with her family.

50:25And they went to Argentina.

50:28David Novak:She took her three kids with her. You know, she learned how her three kids are so different, need to be motivated in different ways. But most importantly, she got to spend time with her family and get, I'm sure, her work-life balance back in order. And, you know, it's something that she talks about with such pride because she grew herself by doing it. You know, I'm sure she had time to self-reflect and figure out what she wanted to do, how she could raise her game. And, you know, I think that's just incredibly powerful and it's self-motivating. So she was very much into her self-development. She wasn't backing off when she went on that gap year.

51:11David Novak:She was digging in. She was digging into herself and figuring out how she could really, really take it to the next level. And she did it and got closer and closer to her family, which she's treasures. And, you know, just really exciting to see. She talks about how she and her husband had to save money before they went because they had the intention to go to Argentina and not work. And you ask her in the episode, you know, you say, that's a pretty significant gap in your resume. You know, what do you think about that? And I'm curious, David, where you sit today, if you were reviewing a resume for, let's say, a CEO job, and you saw that there was a one-year gap where this person went to Argentina or another country with their family, how would you evaluate that as you are evaluating a potential new candidate?

51:54Yeah.

51:55David Novak:Well, it wouldn't matter if they're a CEO or someone interviewing for a product manager job. That would stand out to me. And I'd ask them, you know, tell me about that gap year. Why'd you take it? What'd you learn? Would you do it over again? You know, what'd you learn about the place that you went to? Is there anything you'd do over? You know, I just, you know, I think I would have really had a lot of fun, you know, digging into that question. I'd learn a lot about the person, the way how they answered those questions. Well, great news, David. I'm going to Argentina for a year. I'm just kidding.

52:30David Novak:You can't go. Kula, you're irreplaceable. You know, you can't do that. I'm just kidding. I'm not going to Argentina. But I do want to hit on one other big theme from the conversation between you and Anya. She talks a lot about how frequently she hires taskers from their platform to come to their house to complete tasks and how much she really enjoys getting to meet her taskers. One of their main goals as a company is to provide a way for these taskers to create supplemental income and live the life that they always wanted to live. And I'm curious, David, from your perspective, what does that say about her leadership style and her commitment to her product that she actually uses her product quite frequently?

53:13David Novak:I don't know how you can be a good leader if you don't know your product inside and out. And so how would she know what the whole process is without having her taskers, you know, help her at her house? And so she that's that's basically what she did. And and, you know, the closer you get to the customer. The the better you are. And in this particular case, she's the customer. Yeah, sure. She's the CEO and people are going to give her the best. But if they if you know what, if you can't give the CEO the best, you can't give just think what it's going to be like for everybody else. I remember when I used to go on market tours and people would would know I was coming.

53:56If I walked into a restaurant and that restaurant was not being run well.

54:02David Novak:Which happened, unfortunately, more than I would have liked it said. I would go, holy crap, what's it like when the CEO isn't there? If they can't do it well when I'm walking in, there's a big problem. And so I think in this particular case, she got close to the customer by being a customer and having the taskers come in. In my case, I got close to the customer by going into stores, seeing how our operations were and talking to customers firsthand. And, you know, I think the way how she makes decisions is also something that's very, very important for every leader. She makes decisions based on what she's hearing from customers.

54:47David Novak:You know, listen and respond to the voice of the customer. That's a major takeaway. And that, you know, it's very simple, but people often overlook it. If you want to understand the customer, be a customer. That's a major takeaway. So, you know, she's just a leader that understands the importance of doing the basics really well and then pushing her organization to take it to the next level. She's really trying to go for bold thinking and, you know, figure out the next steps on AI, get better at that herself. But she knows how to know herself and grow herself. And I think as a result, you know, she's growing her business.

55:32David Novak:Absolutely. Well, I'm so thrilled to stay close to TaskRabbit. And I actually hired a tasker last weekend to install a new chandelier in my house. And Anya, if you're listening, had a great experience. So excellent work. I loved my tasker. Eduardo was his name. He did a great job. There was no mess in my house. He was super respectful and kind. So they really know how to set the standard. And I'm excited to continue to watch where Anya takes it. Well, let me tell you, if there's one person in the world that needs a handyman or handywoman, I am. So I'm going to have to give them a call. TaskRabbit.com, David.

56:11David Novak:TaskRabbit.com. There we go. Thank you so much for tuning in to another episode of How Leaders Lead with David Novak. We'll see you next Thursday.

56:26Whoooaaa???