#276: Jason Garrett, 3x Super Bowl Champion and Former NFL Head Coach – You can lead from anywhere on the team

20:02And the team can't skip a beat without you. But I always think that, you know, there's obvious leadership roles, the head coach, a coordinator, the quarterback, the middle linebacker, all of that. And it's critical for those people to embrace those roles. But I always feel like you can lead in your own way from wherever you are. And really, it's just having a positive impact, whether it's by example, an encouraging word, enthusiasm, just your energy and all of that. And so that's what I tried to do. I just tried to be a really positive influence on the team, be a great teammate, be someone that when younger players come in, they can look to you and you can help them, maybe show them the way.

20:41And, you know, one of the great dynamics in the NFL, David, was I'm so grateful for my experience. I ended up playing 14 years and I reflect back on my rookie year. You said it. I was the fledgling quarterback, college free agent, signed for$500. You know, I was a four string quarterback my first year trying to make it. But there were guys that had played 10, 15 years in the NFL who took me under their wing, Stan Brock, starting left tackle, the New Orleans Saints for 12 years. Hey, kid, you want to come to Thanksgiving dinner? I'm living down in New Orleans by myself in some apartment. And, you know, this guy, he's one of the best players on our team.

21:20And he pulls you in and says, hey, you know, you're part of this thing. And, you know, I'll never forget those guys just kind of showing me the way. And then when you get on the other end of it, you know, that's your responsibility to help those other guys show them the way. And I always encourage that in our players to watch the older guys, listen to the older guys, and encourage the older guys to have a responsibility to the younger guys. So I just feel really fortunate that way. And you try to be a great teammate. You try to learn from people. And then when it's your turn, you know, you try to spread the knowledge.

21:53And just really fortunate that way.

21:55David Novak:It became your turn every now and then. And tell us a story about your best game. Yeah, the best game was probably Thanksgiving 1994. You know, Troy Aikman got hurt. And then Rodney Peet was our backup. And he got hurt too. And we had played the Redskins the week before. And here come the Green Bay Packers on Thanksgiving three days later. And we really have no other quarterbacks. I'm the third quarterback, and I'm going to play in the game. And, you know, it's Brett Favre. It's Reggie White. It's this amazing team that they had. And all through the 90s, we had these great battles with them. And a lot of the games were played in Dallas, and we beat them.

22:32We had a lot of success against them. But, you know, they were really good that year. And, you know, all of a sudden, you know, this third-string quarterback's playing. And it was an amazing game. You know, we talked about teamwork and teammates before. You know, early on in the game, it wasn't going great. And, you know, the veteran guys, Michael Irvin, Emmitt Smith, Daryl Johnson, all these guys, they really kind of hung with me. And by the end of the first half, we started moving the ball a little bit and then came out in the second half. And we just had a great day. We ended up beating them.

23:01And, you know, certainly the most memorable game that I played in and the one where I had the most significant role. But my big takeaway is we had great leadership on that team. And there were so many great teammates to make that thing happen.

23:13David Novak:You know, and then after, you know, you said 12 years playing in the NFL, you transitioned into coaching. and your first coaching job was at Miami under the head coach Nick Saban. What did he teach you about leadership? Oh, it was an amazing opportunity for me. You know, I finished my last year playing. The last half of that year, I was a backup quarterback for the Dolphins. And then Nick Saban was hired after that season. And I got the opportunity to meet with him and interview, and he ended up hiring me. And, you know, I reflect back on that. You know, I had played 14 years in the NFL and you learn a lot.

23:54You've been around great teams, great players, great coaches, and you feel like you know something. But then you get in and you're on the other side. Now you're a coach. You're not just a quarterback or a player throwing his ideas out. You know, now you have a responsibility. You're coaching the quarterback. You're on the other side of the desk. And to have the opportunity to be with Nick, you know, he sat at the head of the table, the head of the conference table, in our staff rooms, and I sat right next to him. And the funny story is I got hired a little bit later than everybody else, and we had a meeting at 7.30 in the morning, and there's 20, 25 coaches there.

24:28And we walk in, and there's this long conference table. And I'm like, I'm going down there. I'm going down to the end. And I sat in the corner seat thinking that he was going to be at the head of the table. And I was just going to kind of ease myself into it. He comes into the office, into the conference room from his office the other way and sits right next to me. I'm like, oh, God, I'm right next to the big guy. But it was an amazing vantage point just to see him run a program and no stone unturned. And, you know, we talked at the outset about vision, you know, the vision for the team. And he was so clean and clear about articulating that.

25:06But his greatness, people ask me this all the time, what makes him great? he was relentless, relentless in holding everybody accountable to what the vision was, to the point of, hey, we're going to do everything the right way, how we dress for practice, everybody on time, how we do drills, how you finish drills, how we have a top 30 visit of college players eligible for the draft, how we do the dinner, how we do the buffet lines, how we do the, you know, I mean, it was just amazing how detail-oriented he was on everything, and he was relentless. And it was a great lesson for me when I became a head coach.

25:42You can speak all you want about the vision. It doesn't matter. You got to make it come alive. And he's done an amazing job of doing that.

25:49David Novak:And you got the call in 2007 from the Cowboys to become their offensive coordinator. And you had some immediate success and you started getting head coach, head coaching offers. I remember watching on television, reading about it, But you didn't take them. Why'd you stay as an assistant? Well, you've had those decisions too. And you try to make decisions intellectually. You try to make them with your gut and your heart and what feels right. I'd been a quarterback coach in Miami for two years. I came to Dallas as the offensive coordinator. We had a great year. And then I had opportunities to go be a head coach.

26:29I'd been coaching for three years. I felt like I'd just started. you know, and I knew I had a lot to learn. I felt like we had a little unfinished business in Dallas and the opportunities were amazing. It was to be Baltimore's head coach or to be Atlanta's head coach. Amazing organizations, great owners, all of that. But, you know, at the end of it, my heart and my gut told me, hey, stay here, learn and grow as much as you can. And, you know, you look back on those and say, what if and all of that. But so fortunate to have the path that I've taken, and eventually became the head coach of the Cowboys.

27:03And that was an amazing experience for me.

27:04David Novak:You know, there's a phrase I've heard you use, lead with performance. Say more about that idea. Yeah, well, again, you know that better than I do. You know, a great example of that to me was always Troy Aikman. And, you know, I mentioned that we have this leadership forum. And one of my favorite stories was, you know, this guy named Pete Carrill. I don't know if you know Coach Carrill, but yeah. You know, he was the coach of Princeton for 29 years. and people talk about the Princeton basketball offense. He's the guy that started all that. And he became a great friend of mine. And he used to come to our leadership forum and we have a panel.

27:42And he was on the panel. Troy Aikman was on the panel, a couple other people. And people were talking about leadership and why it's important and this, that, and the other thing. And I'll never forget, you know, he kind of listened and listened and listened. And finally he said something like, hey, is everybody done? Everybody done here? And we said, yeah, coach, what do you have to say? And he said, hey, Aikman, Aikman, you were pretty good throwing that ball in that out route. You were pretty good throwing it right here, weren't you? And he said, yeah, you know, I was pretty accurate, coach.

28:13He said, that kind of helped your leadership, didn't it? You know, and he made an amazing point. You know, just this idea that, again, we can talk all we want about what we want it to be, but you have to perform. Performance matters. and that can certainly enhance your leadership and give your leadership credibility. And I don't know how much you're following the college football stuff, but there's a great story up in Indiana with Kurt Signetti, the head coach there. Incredible. Yeah, I had a chance to do one of his games this year and we're talking in the production meeting before and I'm in there trying to learn.

28:50I'm trying to learn as a coach from him. This guy has had so much success and he's talking about, He has all the lingo and the sayings and all of this. And I said, Coach, you know, I want to interrupt you for a second. You know, I hear all that, but I hear all that from 100 other coaches too about how you're going to be tough and physical and relentless and you're going to play this way and all that. I said, the difference for me is you guys do it. You guys do it. This is how you play. This is how you play week after week on offense, defense, kicking game. You make it come alive. And, you know, you talk about lead with performance, they perform.

29:28And, you know, I said, how do you get that done? And he said, we just make sure we get it done, coach, you know, and just holding everybody accountable to it, himself first, his coaches, and all his players. And you can tell they have a great multi-tiered leadership. They empower their leaders throughout the organization and everybody buys in. So ultimately that's what matters. You have to execute. If you don't execute in business, you're out of business, right? And if you don't execute in football, all, you're not going to be there very long.

29:55David Novak:You know, vision without execution always, you know, it's nothing. Okay. You know, how do you drive an execution mindset into your team? Or how would you recommend doing it in a business? You know, I think for me, you have to be crystal clear about what the expectations are and what the jobs are, right? This is your job and we got to hold you accountable to it. And I think if you can get everybody understanding that, the accountability piece. We used to always say good teams have a head coach who hold everybody accountable. The great teams, the championship teams have the head coach, the coaching staff, the support staff, the players, and everybody else connected with the team.

30:37They hold themselves and each other accountable. And so that's an important piece of it. If you can get everybody to buy in to understand how important executing is, doing your job, all of that, all with the understanding that we're not perfect, we're going to screw up all the time. I mean, I can't tell you the number of mistakes I've made and the best players I've ever been around, the best coaches, but then the willingness to recognize it, be objective, take accountability for it, learn from it and move forward. And if you can create that culture, I think you have your best chance to succeed.

31:09David Novak:As you mentioned earlier, you had the great privilege of coaching the Dallas Cowboys, America's team. What was it like taking the mantle and leading such an iconic franchise? I mean, they've obviously had their problems recently, but over the recent years. But back then, I mean, it's like taking over the Yankees. Well, no doubt. It's one of those franchises. You mentioned the Yankees. I always just say it's the Dallas Cowboys, New York Yankers, Manchester United. These are international brands. And And, you know, you have a choice there. You can turn away from the history and tradition or you can embrace it.

31:49And, you know, I used to always tell our guys, the standards are highest, the NFLs, the Dallas Cowboys, the greatest coaches. Think about the guys who coached there. Tom Landry, one of the greatest coaches ever, right? All the great, amazing assistant coaches, the greatest players. Look at all the Hall of Fame players at every position. So you can run away from those standards or you can embrace them. And it's not living in the past. It's just understanding that this is where we are. These are what the expectations are. And really, it's your expectations for yourself and the approach that you take.

32:21And you mentioned performance, taking accountability for your performance. So to me, it was always a privilege. We used to have a touchstone as players go out to practice. And we used to ask everybody to hit it. You say, it's a privilege, not a right to play coach and work for the Dallas Cowboys. And if you treat it as such, I think your actions will follow. You'll prepare the right way. You'll put your best foot forward. And then really the results will take care of themselves.

32:48David Novak:But as the leader, you know, you are the new sheriff, okay? You're now the head coach. How did you go about developing your vision? And how did you communicate it to the team? You know, like we talked, I was so fortunate to be a part of some amazing teams. So I felt like I know what it looked like. I know what it felt like. And again, you're not living in the past. This is the group of players and coaches we have now. But you can lean on, boy, this is what greatness looks like. I saw Michael Irvin practice. I saw Troy Aikman practice or Darren Woodson or, you know, you picked the guy. And the level that they practiced and prepared at and how they competed and how important it was and the sacrifices they made.

33:33So you try to convey that in a way to the group. And you certainly try to live that, you know, the example you set for everybody and what you do. and you try to empower leaders to take ownership of the team and all that. You know, one of the challenges is, you mentioned it's so high profile. There's a lot of scrutiny. So, you know, there's a big emphasis on focusing on what we need to do because it's easy to get caught up in the other stuff. When you win, everybody inflates it. When you lose, everybody piles on. So how do we kind of lock in, focus on what we need to do each and every day to be our best?

34:08That might be the biggest challenge of all of it. And I used to always tell our guys, let's us as players and coaches not contribute to the noise. Let's make sure that we stay focused on what we need to do to be our best. There's going to be a lot of people saying a lot of stuff about us, good, bad, or indifferent. Let's lock in on what we need to do each day. And I think that was a big challenge when you're in such a high-profile situation.

34:31David Novak:Hello, friends. Just reminding you to stay tuned to the very end of the episode. David and I are going to debrief the conversation that he has with Jason and give you some real practical tools that you can walk away and apply right away to your leadership and to your life. So stay tuned to the very end of the episode and enjoy the rest of the conversation with Jason Garrett. You know, when I always stepped into a new situation, I felt it was my, the number one job was to define reality for the team and then give people the hope that you could actually achieve it. What did you see as your number one task as a leader?

35:04Yeah, at the end of it, the bottom line is you have to win, you know? And so I used to always, the first five minutes of our first meeting and training camp, I'd say, guys, the goal is this, standing on a platform the first week of February, holding the trophy over our head with streamers coming down and confetti all over the place and having these grins on our faces and all of that. Okay, so put that in our deep recesses of our mind. That's where we're going. Okay, but here's how we get there. And so, you know, you're pulling back into today. What do we need to do today to be great? and then show them that you have a path forward to achieve that.

35:41And it's hard to do, right? It's hard to do. I mean, there's one team every year. There's 31 teams that are disappointed, right? And this goes year after year after year. And like I said, I feel fortunate to be a part of four of these teams that went to this game. But, you know, I think you start there, but then you get everybody locked in. And you hear guys like Coach Saban talk about the process. You know, Bill Walsh's book, The Scoreboard Will Take Care of Itself. John Wood never talked about winning. So you got to get everybody back into the mode of, we're going to get the right people together.

36:14We're going to be relentless in doing things the right way each and every day. And then ultimately, the results will take care of themselves. The results are real. If we don't win, we're not going to be here. If you're not productive, you're not going to be here. But the best way to win and be productive is if we approach it the right way each and every day and relentless in our pursuits. And I think that's what you try to convey to everybody.

36:35David Novak:You know, I've talked to a lot of great leaders and visited a lot of great companies, and they take the time to really articulate the cultural behaviors that they think are going to lead you to victory, to get to that winning point. Is that something you do in football as well? Do you have four or five things you say, this is it? And if so, how do you communicate them and then keep them front and center for the team? You know, one of the things we always tried to do is we had a foundational word. And the word that we always talked about in Dallas and really is something that I think is critical in any organization is the word fight.

37:14You know, when players and coaches and staff members got to training camp, we always had a fight hoodie lying on their bed. And guys would wear it around. Simple word, fight across your chest. And then we talked about what that means. We want to be a team that fights. What does that mean? Fight to be your best every day. That's the highest standard, to be your absolute best every day. That's our goal. And you're not going to achieve it, but we want to fight to get there. We talked about standards, the highest standards, the NFL, the Dallas Cowboys, the Tennessee Titans, right? We're going to set the standards high as leaders.

37:47We got to fight each day to reach them. Fight to get the job done, right? Everybody's got a job. We got to fight to get it done. And most importantly, fight for each other. So that was kind of the foundation of what we're trying to do. And for me, you could articulate that each and every day where you had great examples of guys on the practice field or during the game or off the field, how they demonstrated that. So you reinforce that. But something I learned early on as you talk about, you know, expectations. and we always did it where we said, hey, players, this is what you can expect from us as coaches.

38:24And we go through that. You can expect us to keep the standards high, treat you with respect, coach you hard, all of these things, right? And then this is what we expect from you. And a lot of it was the inverse of that. But if you lay that stuff out right at the outset and you're crystal clear with it, you give them vivid examples of it, I do think that everybody understands. And then when things happen where you go awry from that, it's easy to bring them back. Hey, we talked about this on day one. You know, something else that we always tried to do is we tried to have the players by themselves, whether it's the captains or a leadership group, come up with like a player's motto or a mantra or something like that.

39:08And a player's creed, not unlike the Navy SEALs or an ethos of something like that. and kind of get out of their way and say, what do you guys want our team? We talk about ownership. What do you guys want this team to be about? So try to do both of those things. And hopefully those standards are crystal clear for everybody. And then again, the key is holding everybody accountable to it.

39:29David Novak:You think about coaches and stereotypically, you think about how some coaches are just never give you a compliment. You know, I don't know if Bill Parcells is that way, you know but I think he's kind of known for being sort of a curmudgeon never you know never never doling out praise and then you think of other other coaches who you know like you said they recognize those behaviors that performance that gets you the the kind of fight culture you want what kind of approach works today for the the player is to this place player need the recognition or do they need the you know never get the praise I mean how do you look at that well something I always said was, you know, ever since we were six years old, we wanted to play and coach in the National Football League.

40:16Now we're here. You know, let's not create a miserable environment. Let's not create an environment where everybody walks in like, oh my God, I hate being here. Are you kidding me? We're playing and coaching the NFL. Let's make this great, you know? So I always believe that you want to have a positive, upbeat environment for people to live in and work in and function in. Now, having said that, you know, we've talked about this a lot. You got to keep the standards high. This is what the expectations are. These are what the standards are. And we're not going to be demeaning when we coach you, but we're going to be demanding.

40:49We're going to make sure that you're maximizing this opportunity and we're getting everything out of you.

40:54David Novak:I like that. Not demeaning, but demanding. That's a good phrase. And I think that's something that if you have the right kind of guys on your team, That's what they want. You know, the best players I've been around want to be coached and they want to be coached hard. And so if you can do that and tell them why, not just tell them to do it, here's why this is important. I think you're going to get the most out of them. Yeah. Speaking of players and developing players, what's your philosophy on doing it? I mean, how do you develop the talent that you have? Oh, it's critical. It's everything. You know, you have to identify players, both in the draft and free agency.

41:31do a great job with evaluations. But then once you get them in the building, it's your job as a coach and as an organization to help grow them. Those are your most valuable commodities, your players. And so everything has to point towards their development. And something that we've always talked about was just the idea of being very intentional with each player's development. Like at the end of the season, we used to do something we called the plan. Okay, we got to get David Novak better. Okay, so I'm coaching you and I say, okay, these are your three strengths. These are three areas where I think you need to improve.

42:07These are three ways that we're gonna do that. This is what you need to do in the weight room. This is what you need to do with your nutrition. I do that, but then we say, hey, David, you do that. You do a self-evaluation. And so you do the same thing and then we get together and we meet. And hopefully those things are on the same page. And what we're doing for you is different than what we're doing for Jimmy or Johnny. We're having the same meetings with them. And you show them a cut-up and you show them the reasons why that this is what I see. Is this how you see it? And you dig in on day one and say, how are we going to improve?

42:39What kind of drills are we going to do? What are the steps we're going to take? You know, I think coaches make a mistake and they say, okay, David Novak's a running back. So he's in the running back room and he's just going to get better because we're going to coach all those guys. Yeah, that's true. That's probably going to happen. But if you can be intentional, have the player be intentional, have the coach be intentional and maximize these opportunities, I think that's when you're going to get the best out of everybody.

43:04David Novak:Absolutely. And, you know, you won three NFC division titles. You were named Coach of the Year in 2016. How did you personally define success in an environment where if you don't win the Super Bowl, it's a bust? I mean, like you said, there's only one of the 32 gets there. I mean, how do you, if you don't win it, how do you wake up and make yourself feel good about yourself? Yeah, you know, it's a hard part of the job and the winning is the bottom line. We all know that. And so you got to win or you're not going to have the opportunity to keep doing what you're doing. But I do think when you're in it, I think it's important to critically evaluate how you're playing independent of the result.

43:45I think that's what allows you to get better the most. And, you know, I'm sure you've had a ton of business meetings where you got, you know, they've signed on, that you got the deal. But if you really reflect back on it, hmm, maybe that wasn't my best pitch. And other times you didn't get the deal and you knocked it out of the park. You're right. But you have to critically evaluate those things independent of the result, in my opinion. I think if you can do that on a consistent basis, Nick Saban was great at doing that. Sometimes he was critically, I mean, incredibly critical of us when we won a game.

44:19And then when we lost a game, much more understanding. This was good. This was good. You know, so I think over time, if you're really objective about how you're doing things along the way, that's what's going to lead to the bottom line of winning maybe more than anything else.

44:33David Novak:You know, you mentioned great coaches earlier, you know, the Nick Sabans, the John Woodens. They have the process and discipline around what really matters. You know, when it comes to winning in football, where do you think you, what's your ideas on process and discipline? Where do you have to have it? Oh, yeah, you have to have it in every aspect of it. And, you know, you think about building an organization. And, you know, there's a great story that I can remember. We went up in 2016. We had the fourth pick of the draft. And we took a whole group of people up to Ohio State. And, you know, Ohio State had like five or six guys that were going to be first round picks.

45:12And Joey Bosa and Ezekiel Elliott and some other guys. And so we took our whole staff up there to work these guys out, talk to coaches, spend time with them. And I had never been to Ohio State. And I walked into their football offices and there was this two-story atrium entryway. And I can remember looking at the floor and they had all these words like engraved on the floor, excellence, performance, integrity, discipline, all of that. I'm like, hey, you know, you're thinking about when you're a leader, you're always trying to message. I'm like, that's interesting. And then kind of at eye level, they had these pictures of all the great Ohio State players through the years, names that were very recognizable.

45:56I'm like, ah, that's really cool. I mean, amazing, these coaches and players who have been here. And then I looked up and like on the top of the second story, atrium, there was a quote by Woody Hayes, their longtime coach, and he said, you win with people. That's the takeaway. You know, that's the takeaway. And that's such a simple thing to say. But if you can be really disciplined with the people you bring into your organization, and you're really crystal clear as to what you're looking for, it's amazing how all these other things can follow from that. If you're bringing bad people who don't want to be part of a team, aren't willing to work, don't really care about each other, all of that stuff, you're going to have a hard time getting any message to stick.

46:39But if you're bringing in the right kind of people who love football, want to be part of a team, willing to work for it, all of that, all of a sudden, everything you say kind of sticks. You can be a disciplined team. You can achieve some of the things you want to achieve. So we always were very thoughtful about, hey, who are we letting in the door?

46:59David Novak:So speaking of that, What would be the one question you'd ask, like a potential first-round draft pick? They come in. What would you ask them? Well, I used to ask two questions. You know, they have this amazing thing at the Combine, David. I'd love to have you be a part of it sometime. You know, it was like speed dating. Starting at 6 o 'clock at night, a horn goes off, and a player comes into this hotel room. And you have the head coach, and you have coordinators and personnel guys and scouts all in the room, and the guy comes in, and you've got 15 minutes with him. At the 14-minute mark, another horn goes off telling you you got one more minute.

47:33Then the horn goes again and everybody changes. And so we used to try to be really systematic. We did the position coach talk and then the coordinator, personnel guy. And I used to always talk last. And I had two questions. My first question was, what's the biggest challenge you've had in your life and how'd you get through it? And it's amazing the stories you hear. You know, some tragic stories, some really hard stories to the point where you say, how is this guy even in this room after going through that? But, you know, life's about adversity. The NFL's about adversity. You want to know if these guys can get through it.

48:08But my other question was, say the kid was from Ohio State. I would say, hey, there's 100 guys in Ohio State's program. We're going to ask everybody associated with the program, coaches, players, and staff members, to rank the players one through 100 based on one criteria, how much they love football, and then provide the evidence for the love. One loves it the most, 100 loves it the least. So I would ask him, I said, where does everybody rank you and what's their evidence? And invariably the guy would say, oh, they rank me one, coach, one. I just have a feeling ever since I was a kid, I love football, it's a feeling inside of me.

48:46I'm like, that wasn't the question. The question was, everybody else is ranking you how much you love football and what's their evidence. Do you get there early? Do you stay late? Are you prepared? Are you a great teammate? Are you always working on your skill? Whatever those things are, you're looking for evidence. And so to me, passion for the game, love for what you're doing is really line one. If you don't love it, it's too hard. And that's the only way you're going to get better at it. And so we always challenge guys about that. And not only the feeling of love, but love is an action. It's a verb.

49:21What do you do? What's the evidence? And so I think if you can get through those two questions, you get a pretty decent feel for what the guy's all about.

49:28David Novak:No, I love both of those questions. Outstanding. And leaders, as you know, you have to manage up and you have to manage down, you know, in your organization. And you worked with Jerry Jones, you know, what did you learn about leading up working with him, not just managing down? You know, he's, you know, reportedly, a micromanager, pretty tough guy to work with, but also supportive, I'm sure. What'd you learn managing up with him? Well, just an amazing experience, first and foremost. I learned so much from him about so many things. So I'm grateful for that experience. But I do think if you're a head coach, you're not in charge.

50:08Ownership is in charge. General managers are in charge. So you have to lead up. And I think for me, it was always the importance of creating a crystal clear vision for the team. And if you can articulate it clearly, what you want the team to be like, what you want this thing to look like, who we want to bring in and say it in a way that is compelling to people, they can see it in their minds. That's when your vision comes alive. And ultimately, Jerry Jones is the decision maker. He drafted the players. He signed off on the free agents, all of that. So we had to do a great job saying, hey, you know something?

50:43With the ninth pick of the draft in 2011, my first year, Tyron Smith is the guy we need to draft. We need to draft this guy, and here's why. Bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, bop. And if you can convey that in a crystal clear manner and be compelling, I think that's important. So I think with personnel decisions and any decisions, it's incumbent upon you to be able to communicate and communicate well and have great reasons for why you want to do things. And I think that's probably the biggest lesson you'll learn.

51:14David Novak:You know, being let go is one of the toughest things for anyone to deal with in life. And when your contract wasn't renewed with the Cowboys, how did you process that and move forward as a leader? It's a challenge. It is because so much of your life is invested in it. And, you know, as a player and as a coach, in order to be great at something, you've got to dive into it and put your heart and soul and everything into it. And, you know, it takes over your life. And we always talk to our players and coaches about ownership. Take ownership of this thing. It's your team. Well, when you get relieved of your duties, it's no longer your team.

51:53And that can leave a real hole in your life. And I used to always think when I was playing and coaching, understand that this isn't all who you are as a person. Don't let your entire life and your values, how you value yourself, be based on winning and losing a game, right? And so even though you're completely invested in your ownership and you're all in on it, you do have other parts of your life and you do have value beyond this. Don't inflate your value when you win and certainly don't diminish your value when you lose. So I think that's important, but that is not easy to do. No, it's not. It's not easy to do.

52:34And it's hard for all of us regardless. And I think in a lot of ways, it's hard for players to transition. If you think about players who have, their identity has been tied to playing football, and you're a football player, you're a great football, you're a Hall of Fame football player. You know, that's a big part of who you are. And to be able to wake up the next day and have a passion and a purpose for something, that's hard to do. So those situations are never easy. But, you know, you tell yourself that. I used to always say, you know, you make these talks to the team. Sometimes you got to listen to your own talks.

53:09David Novak:I'd say the same thing, too. You know, sometimes I'm not very good at it either. Yeah, exactly right. You know, speaking of transitions, in 2022, you joined NBC as a sports analyst. What advice can you give others on how to transition well? Because you obviously enjoy what you're doing now, and you're having a good time doing it. Yeah, no doubt. I had a great opportunity. Fred Gidele, who's one of the great football producers of all time, is a friend of mine. And he reached out and said, what do you think about broadcasting? And I said, what do you think about it? You're the expert. And he gave me some great advice.

53:51I think you'll appreciate this. He said, we're doing the USFL down in Birmingham, Alabama. NBC's doing it. And there's going to be 10 games this spring. I think you should go down there and be our analyst. and he said, you're going to work with great people. Some of the best people at NBC, it'll be a fantastic environment to work in. You'll learn a lot from them. You'll find out if you like it. We'll find out if you're any good at it. And most importantly, no one will be watching.

54:23And he was so true. I mean, he was dead on. And so, you know, I got into it about three or four weeks and they said, hey, it's going well. and they offered me some more opportunities and I'm grateful for those. And, you know, I think the biggest thing, you know, at that time, it was a risk. It was something that was completely different than I had done before. And it was just a willingness to say, yeah, what the hell? Let's dive in and do it. I trusted him. It intrigued me a little bit and just a willingness to maybe try something new. And I'm grateful I did. And NBC, they're incredible people.

54:59I've learned so much and I have a lot of fun doing what I'm doing.

55:02David Novak:Jason, you've mentioned grateful many times in this conversation that we've had. How important is just having gratitude in your life? How much does that play in what makes you tick? You know, I can reflect back on my life and when I've been at my absolute worst, I haven't had any gratitude. You start thinking about all the wrong things. You start thinking about what other people are doing. You start forgetting how fortunate you are in so many different ways. And if you can just bring it back to that each and every day, think about the family I grew up in. Think about the opportunities I had athletically and academically and the people I've had a chance to meet and the different things I've been able to be a part of and people to learn from and all of that.

55:51If you can really just honestly pull back, it's like, are you kidding me? This is ridiculous. And I've just been so fortunate in so many ways. And, you know, what I've always thought was it's incumbent upon you to take full advantage of these opportunities. Strive to be your best. You're not going to be your best. You're going to fall short. You're not going to be perfect. I got that. But fight. Fight to be your best in everything you do to embrace these opportunities and show your gratitude for them. And so much of it, if you think about, like I said, talking about my parents, my brothers and sisters, my wife, friends, colleagues, coaches, teammates, all of that.

56:28I mean, I've just been so fortunate to be around so many people. And when I keep that in the forefront of my mind, I find I'm a much better person.

56:36David Novak:You know, Jason, it's been so much fun. And I want to have some more with my lightning round of questions. So are you ready for this? Okay, let's go. Three words that best describe you. Grateful is one of them. Driven is one of them. And hopefully somebody who strives to be a good person. If you could be one person for a day besides yourself, who would it be? I'd like to try to be the president for a day. What's your biggest pet peeve? Access to things. Passwords. You know what I'm talking about? Every time you turn around, somebody's asking for a password. Who would play you in a movie? Damian Lewis.

57:15He's a redheaded guy. I love him to death. Who's the best teammate you've ever had? This is not one word. Troy Aikman, Daryl Johnston, Michael Irvin, Mark Stepnoski, Mark Tewin. I mean, I can go on and on and on and on. A million of them. I'm leaving all of them short, but so fortunate to have so many great ones. Best player you ever coached? The best player I've ever coached was probably Jason Witten. DeMarcus Ware, certainly right there. Who was the first person to give you the nickname Red? Oh, you know, my nickname when I was a kid and people who know me since I'm really young is Skin, S-K-I-N.

57:49because I used to have a big afro when I was a little kid, and I got it all cut off once. I'm like, hey, you look like a skinhead. And so that stuck. Literally all my college buddies, all my buddies from growing up. But certainly the obvious nickname is Red, and I think probably my Little League coach, when I was six years old, probably started calling me that. Your favorite golf course to play in Long Island? You know, I just had the opportunity to play Shinnecock. Incredible.

58:17David Novak:What's something you've been curious about lately that has nothing to do with work? How to get better in tennis. What's the one thing that you do just for you? I probably do too many things just for me. You know, I try to work out, you know? I mean, just work out and stay in shape. Besides your family and friends, what's your most prized possession? You know, probably our house. I don't know. If I turned the radio on in the car, what would I hear in your car? I'd hear probably Bruce Springsteen or Jackson Brown. That's fantastic. What's something about you a few people would know? I think probably people know too much.

58:54Hey, we're opening up a restaurant in Dallas. How about that? All right. That's a good one. Called Cafe Luca. When you're in town, you got to come see us, man. I will. What's one of your daily rituals? Something that you never miss? Yeah, some form of exercise.

59:09David Novak:All right. We're out of the lightning round, Jason. Just a few more questions. I'll let you go here. What would be the best pregame speech you ever gave? Does one come top of mind? You know, I have a great friend who was an amazing minister at the Methodist Church here in Dallas who used to say, I have one sermon, I tell it 52 different ways. And I think that's a lot what coaches do. You know, my one sermon is all about being who you are, being the best version of yourself. And you try to tell it a million different ways. I can remember we played the San Francisco 49ers. It was my first year as the head coach.

59:47And one of my most memorable for me was we talked about California being the land of opportunity. And if you think about going back to the gold rush, right? 1849, people are going to California to find gold. And you think about every starlet, you know, in every small town all across America going to Hollywood. And you think about guys going to Silicon Valley and all of that. And we were going there. We're going to Santa Clara, California. and I talked a lot about opportunity and us being the best version of ourselves to embrace the opportunity that we had to go play the 49ers. And I'll never forget it.

1:00:25We had a guy named Jesse Holley who made our team as a receiver. And you probably don't remember the story. He had an opportunity to do it based on a reality show. He had a chance to come to, had a chance to be the 90th guy we've been to training camp from this reality show. And it turns out he makes our team. And so at the end of the game, we tie it up and we go to overtime. And in the second play of overtime, Tony Romo throws him a post. He was wide open, catches it and goes 60 yards down the field, gets knocked out of bounds at the two-yard line. We're going to kick a field goal to win it in overtime.

1:01:01I'll never forget when he gets tackled, he's lying on the ground. He's like, California's the land of opportunity. You know? Jesse Hawley went 77 yards. it must be a reality show. And here he was, he took advantage of, we ended up winning the game. So that one always kind of stuck out for me.

1:01:21David Novak:I love it. Now you and your wife, Brill, you met at Princeton. What role has she played in all you've been able to do in your career? She's been amazing. You know, like I said, I met her probably when I was 20 years old and, you know, we've been together for a long time. And, you know, you think about all the different paths you take, all the different ups and downs you have. I told you I was a fledgling football player. I went down and I was part of the Saints team on their practice squad my rookie year. Then I got cut. I played in Canada. I played in the World League. Finally, I go to Dallas.

1:01:53All the while, she's in law school and just kind of staying with me through all of that and believing in me and instilling belief in me. And when things were tough, she was there. When things were good, She was a huge part of why they were good. And, you know, so she's meant everything to me.

1:02:13David Novak:So, Jason, what do you see now as your unfinished business? Well, again, you know, a couple of years ago, we were on the beach and Brill and I were talking to this woman and her daughter. The woman was probably in her 70s, daughter maybe in her 40s. and we asked them, I said to the daughter, I said, where do you live? And she said, you know, I used to live in LA and now I live in the present. And I was like, huh, you know, I said, that's really good. And, you know, that's really what I've always tried to do. You kind of live in the moment, embrace the opportunities. So, you know, this opportunity came upon me to go interview with the Tennessee Titans.

1:02:59So I'm have regrets about things. You look around and see what you want to do. And the most valuable commodity we have, as you know, is time. So you want to make sure you're using your time wisely and you're embracing the right thing. So, you know, depending on what presents itself, I'll try to dive in and take full advantage of whatever those opportunities are.

1:03:21David Novak:Jason, you know, we're having this podcast here on leadership. I understand you're going to do one. I'm not going to look at you as a competitor because we're like spreading the word, you know, We're trying to help people, but tell me about it. You know, it's a really fun project. We're calling it Coach to Coach. And, you know, I've talked to four head coaches, guys who are really good at what they do. And the conversation isn't about last week's game or next week's game or how their quarterback is playing. It's really about all the stuff we've been talking about. It's about, you know, building an organization and creating a vision and hiring people and handling adversity and all of that.

1:03:58And so I sat down with Andy Reid and Sean Payton and Dan Campbell and Dan Quinn, guys that, you know, in some cases I've played for or coached with or played with and other cases have gone against. And guys I really respect as people, respect as head coaches, and maybe most importantly, respect as leaders. And the conversation was probably a little bit like our conversation where we sat for an hour and we just talked about their journey and their path and some of the wisdom that they can share with people. And, you know, it was a really fun project for me to do. I learned so much from them. And I think anybody watching in any field of leadership, I think they can benefit from it.

1:04:40So we're really excited about it. We're proud of the work. You know, the guys at Intersport in Chicago have done an amazing job with the production of it. So we're excited about it. Fantastic. I can't wait to listen to him.

1:04:52David Novak:All right, last question. What's one piece of advice you'd give to anyone who wants to be a better leader? You know, I think the biggest thing is you have to lead yourself and you have to try to get yourself in order. And then I think that's when you can most positively impact other people. And I think when you have stresses of leadership and there's pressures to succeed and all of that, sometimes you can lose sight of that. I know I did at different times. So just remind yourself that you're more than the entity that you're leading and don't have your value for yourself be so determined on the results and the outcome.

1:05:30And I think that's what gives you the great starting point. And then I think what we talked about, having a vision for what you want it to look like, bringing the right people in, holding people accountable, empowering people, all of those things. Ultimately, leadership to me is about being a great servant. And you hear people talk about servant leadership. But when I became the head coach of the Cowboys, I got a great email from Jimmy Johnson, who was our head coach during the Super Bowl years. And he said, congratulations, now it's time to get to work. Understand your number one job as a leader is to create an environment where everybody can be their best.

1:06:07And that's what it is. It's not about X's and O's or plays you call. It's everybody in that building, create an environment where they can be their absolute best. And that's when you'll be your best. So I focused on that more than anything else. And I think that's probably the one piece of advice that I'd give to anybody.

1:06:23David Novak:Well, Jason, I want to thank you very much for all the great insights you've had on leadership. You're a hell of a person. And I'm so glad I got to know you better. And I know our listeners are going to learn a lot from this conversation. So thank you very much. Well, David, I'm a huge fan of yours. And I'm getting you up to our football camp this summer. Get ready. Okay, my friend.

1:06:50David Novak:David, Jason Garrett's got me fired up about the Super Bowl, about potentially taking over as the head coach of the Tennessee Titans. I live in Nashville, so it would be excellent if you would bring his compelling vision to our town. Yeah, you need a coach there in Nashville for sure. You certainly got rid of a really good one who's taking the Patriots. Seriously. How do you feel about losing Mike Raberle after the performance since he's had as a Pat. I mean, come on. That was a bad move by the ownership there. Of course, I probably won't get those guys on the podcast. Well, you got Jason Garrett, and that's a pretty good get.

1:07:28David Novak:I'm excited to break down some of the key points that he talked about in the episode and that you two really discussed so that our listeners have something practical they can take away and apply to their own life and to their own leadership. So David, the first concept that I love, I loved many of the concepts as I do in every single one of our episodes, those blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You've heard me say that before. But I loved when Jason talks about the story that Jimmy Johnson had around managing pressure, that analogy of the two by four. He says the two by four is the same, whether it's on the ground or whether it's 100 stories in the air.

1:08:01David Novak:So it's the same two by four. Can you execute when the stakes are a little bit higher? So when you think about high stakes moments in your career, David, you've never played in the Super Bowl, but you've had some Super Bowl-esque moments in your career. How do you stay grounded and focused and confident that you know what to do to get it done? Yeah, and just to be clear about what that analogy was, is that, you know, he's saying that if he asks these players to walk across this board when it's on the ground, they could do head flips and handstands and, you know, So, you know, waltz, pirouettes, they would have no problem at all.

1:08:39David Novak:But you put it up 10 ,000 feet, man, you'd be afraid that you might fall. And he said, let's play like that two by fours on the ground. You know, and that's how we're going to really perform. And that's what you really have to do. The more pressure you put on yourself in high pressure situations, the worse most people generally do. You know, one of the things we tried to train people to do at Young Brands was to untry. Literally untry. Let your talents take over. Be free. In golf, you know, all the mental performance coaches talk to you about, you know, visualize what you want to have happen. You know, breathe so that you calm your mind.

1:09:21David Novak:Think about if you've got a nine iron that you got to put on the green to make sure that you're in position to win, think about the best nine iron you ever hit in your life. But be so positive about bringing your full potential out and don't be worried about the outcome. So many times people worry about the outcome so much it gets in the way of the performance that they need to have to get the right outcome. But I think Jimmy Johnson's analogy that Jason Garrett talked about is great. He said, we know, and back then he said, we knew the Dallas Cowboys, if they played the Buffalo Bills, you know, 10 out of 10 times, and they both played to their best abilities, Dallas would win 10 times.

1:10:05David Novak:The only thing that would keep them from winning is that they didn't play like they usually do. So he reminded people, just play like you usually do. You know, use the skills that you have and perform at your best using those skills that you have, not worrying about what the hell is going to happen if you you lost on the biggest stage. So I think that's how you get really ready for those moments. Now, the other thing you have to do to get ready for those moments is be prepared. He also told him, you know, you put in the hard yards, you put in the work, we're ready. Nobody should touch us. And, you know, so if you put in the hard work, then it all becomes mental.

1:10:43David Novak:Are you going to bring your mental game into play? And that's what I think Jason understands so well. And he learned that with the great analogy that he still uses to this day, which I've used four or five times since I heard it, that Jimmy Johnson gave him. I love that analogy. It's so good. It reminds me a little bit of what Rory McIlroy talked about in your episode with him. He said, the greatest players don't rise to the level of their goals. They fall to the level of their systems and systems being how you prepare for a game. So if you've worked hard on your preparation and your systems, then you can untry in those high-pressure moments and trust that your preparation will lead you to where you want to go.

1:11:23David Novak:And just let it go. Be free. Everybody talks about being free. Well, you can be free when you know you have the capability and you rely on that capability and you trust that you can execute the skills that you've prepared so hard to have. David, are you going to Nashville to interview for the head coaching job for the Tennessee Titans? Because you sound an awful lot like a football coach right now. I like to think that I might have been a halfway decent coach, but I don't know anything about football. You need to know what you're talking about to be a good coach. In the episode, it's clear, too, that Jason Garrett had this incredible camaraderie with his teammates when he played for the Cowboys.

1:11:58David Novak:And it's clear, and if you remember back to that early 90s era Cowboys, they had an incredible bond. I mean, you've got Troy Aikman, Emmitt Smith, Michael Irvin, Deion Sanders, Jason Garrett. That team bond led them through some really tough situations and it's what kept them going when things got really hard. And when you think about this idea of team bonding in a business setting, how can you encourage authentic team bonds without it feeling cheesy or gimmicky and without making people walk across coals to show that they're committed to the team? Yeah, well, that's something that I think every leader really wants to get.

1:12:36David Novak:And I think the key to bonding is shared experiences. I think as a leader, what you have to do is you have to bring the team together and have them go through the same things together, go through those experiences together so that they can look back on that experience and say, we did this. And because we did that, we're going to be able to do this. And, you know, it just, it works that way. You know, I was very lucky. In fact, I talked to this guy this past week, Larry Sin. Larry Sin is the father of culture. And when I was the head of KFC, I had a lot of really great ideas, but I really didn't have the process to put in place to really execute the culture because I was more of a one-man band.

1:13:16David Novak:I was out there giving the big speech and doing my own personal recognition, but I was doing it with an organization that had 200 ,000 people. And it's like one leader can't impact anybody by himself. So how do you really build not only team bonding, but bonding throughout the organization? You build a culture. And Larry Sin knows how to build cultures. And one of the things that he had is he had a number of exercises that he took people through that created team bonding. And, you know, from the basics of just talking about three things about yourself that no one knows and sharing that with your teammate.

1:13:53David Novak:From doing, learning about the mood elevator, learning about the accountability ladder, you know, learning, taking the Fs exercise where you, you know, count the number of Fs in a paragraph. where everybody gets it wrong. All these exercises, but they created shared experiences with the team and you learn so much about each other because you did them. Now you can have formal training like that, which Larry really helped me with my organization. And one of the reasons why we created the global culture that I think really helped us drive compounded growth year after year at Young Brands. But you also need to take your team together and see things together.

1:14:31David Novak:Like we used to do bus rides where we would go from restaurant to restaurant, go into competition and look at the competitor, go back in the bus ride and go back in the bus and talk about what we learned. We liked that so much, then we started doing them with customers. We had the customers go into these different concepts and then they would talk to us about what they liked about the different concepts. But it was a shared experience that we always went back to. We did best practice visits. We went to Walmart and Southwest Airlines and Cisco and we went to these great companies. And we said, what did we learn?

1:15:04David Novak:And then we could hearken back to those great, great processes and the great learnings that we had. But the best thing that I ever did to drive team bonding was just to do exercises on how to reveal your own self-awareness to other people. And when you do that and you open yourself up, oh, my God, you found pay dirt. David, that reminds me of last summer. we invited some of the educators who are part of our Lead for Change student leadership program. It's for middle and high school educators all across the country. And we brought them together to pour into them, but also to allow them to help us make the program better so that we can continue to reach more educators so that we can reach more students and drive more impact.

1:15:47David Novak:And it's interesting. We thought that that experience would be more about the educators pouring into us. But what we do a lot as a team, what we find ourselves talking about a lot is the shared experience of being there with the educators who are our customers and hearkening back, like you said, to some of the insights and thoughts that they shared that we would never have known had we not invited them in. But that was one of those sort of core bonding experiences, if you will, that really allowed us not only to understand each other more, but to also get incredible insights from our educators and is really something that I think we'll look back on for a while to come.

1:16:26David Novak:Yeah, and I remember, you know, John Hamilton, who runs Sleep for Change, and Sarah, you, all of you guys were talking about when this teacher said that, and that teacher said that. And, you know, that's a shared experience that really, you know, created a tremendous bonding. And the same thing happened when we went to the Wendy Novak Diabetes Institute together, and we talked to the doctors, and, you know, and so, you know, but we didn't do it one, you know, one person by themselves. No, we took the team together. We experienced it together. And as a result, you know, we're able to really, you know, see it all together.

1:17:00David Novak:And when you see it, then it creates a memory and memories stick. And those memories are things that really create the kind of bonding. And, you know, Jason Garrett, he'll talk about how he was in, he came in on Thanksgiving Day and they're playing the Packers and the whole team got behind him because he'd been, you know, preparing for this moment. And they beat the Packers. And that's when the Packers had a phenomenal team. But it was that shared teammate experience that helped them create a culture that really was put into work when it was time to perform on that Thanksgiving day. David, that brings me to the next topic that I want to talk about.

1:17:42David Novak:And it's something that is very apparent in Jason's leadership philosophy. And it's this idea that you can lead from anywhere on a team. You just talked about that game, that Thanksgiving game where they beat the Packers. He's the third string quarterback, and he's stepping in and leading this team to victory against the Packers, who were quarterbacked by Brett Favre at the time. And, you know, he hadn't been the starting quarterback, obviously, because he was third string, but he still led in his own way from that place. And that allowed him to show up in that big moment and have the trust he needed to take the team to victory.

1:18:17David Novak:He talks a lot in the episode about how everyone is a leader in some way. So I'm just curious, like for the people who might not see themselves as a leader, what would you say to them? Well, my mantra at Young Brands was be the leader, act like the leader. You can lead wherever you're at. You know, that's true. I mean, if you're an admin, you can be the best admin. You can show everybody how to be the best administrative assistant there is. You know, if you're the janitor, you know, you can make sure that the floor is the cleanest and it really lays out the fact that this is a company that believes in quality.

1:18:54David Novak:And if everybody does their piece of Yum! Brands well, we all add up and we all get great growth. And that's kind of the mentality that I think we really wanted to have. You know, Jason Garrett should get together with Pat Kelsey, the Louisville Cardinals basketball coach. Those two guys are so fired up and love leadership so much. But Pat Kelsey said something, which I'll never forget. Crush it where you're at. Whatever job you have in the organization, just crush it where you're at. When you crush it where you're at, people are going to notice your performance and you're going to move up when you have that opportunity.

1:19:32David Novak:And that's how he became an assistant coach when he didn't have the experience of a lot of other assistant coaches. So, you know, you can lead from anywhere if you have that leadership mindset. You know, it's going to pay off for the organization. And it's going to pay off from you. I also, David, thought about Drink, Coach Drinkwitz at Mizzou. We could toss him in that group with Pat Kelsey and Jason Garrett. He talks about the power of positive energy exchange. And that's something that Jason mentions too. It doesn't matter what role you're in. If you bring positivity and impact to people around you in a positive way, that goes further than you could really ever imagine.

1:20:06David Novak:Because people remember that. Yeah, leadership is contagious. You know, positive energy lifts people up. negative energy brings people down. When you bring that positive energy to work, it's hard to be around somebody positive and stay negative without sensing that you're an Eeyore. And nobody wants an Eeyore. We do not want Eeyores on our team. We want people who are positive, focused on making it happen no matter where they're at. And that's what Jason Garrett recognizes. And I think that's why he was such a great coach. Now, this is a guy who run three division championships and was the NFL coach of the year.

1:20:40David Novak:So he knows what he's talking about. He also has three Super Bowl rings. So he doubly knows what he's talking about. Well, he knows what it takes to win for sure. Well, David, that does it for our episode today. Thank you so much for tuning in to another episode of How Leaders Lead with David Novak. Stay tuned next Thursday, and we will see you then.

1:21:09Thank you.