#277: Jimmy Roberts, Emmy Award-winning broadcaster, NBC & Golf Channel – Curiosity builds connection

25:49And I think the most important takeaway that I had, and I don't know how much I learned from him in this regard, but my takeaway was Howard had the ability to ask the biggest names in, you know, in entertainment, media, sports, politics. He could ask them anything and not lose them. And that is the trick of being a good interviewer, I think, is being able to ask the questions that need to be asked and at the same time not losing your subject. Look, anybody can ask really, really hard questions. What might happen if you turn your subject off? What good is that? You know, you're going to get one word answers or maybe they'll just get up and walk away, which has happened to me.

26:43David Novak:Well, let me ask you a question. And you talked about Fuzzy Zeller when he's made his comment about Tiger would probably serve fried chicken at the master's dinner. You know, you lost that friendship. He never talked to you again. You know, would you ask that question differently? I mean, you know, you lost him, right? I mean, what would you do differently? Yeah, well, let me give you a little context on that. So I had a really good relationship with Fuzzy, but I wasn't alone. Fuzzy was good to everybody. He was a great guy. He was a great guy who did a stupid thing. And the details, it wasn't really like asking him a question, but a couple of months after I was a guest on a radio show, the host asked me, he said, do I think Fuzzy Zeller is a racist?

27:33I said, Fuzzy Zeller is not a racist. Fuzzy Zeller is a great guy who did a stupid thing, you know? and Fuzzy happened to hear the radio interview. And that was what happened. Now, I tried to reach out to him and have a discussion with him about it. But, you know, gets back to, you know, fair to you, true to me.

27:54David Novak:Being true to me, you know, that's a good thing. So you literally, you developed your style. You know, how long did it take you as a leader to develop what is now you? Is it when you started out working? How much have you evolved versus where you were? I hope I'm still evolving. I hope I'm still learning. I learn all the time. I just started this new business. We've got this show on Golf Channel on Tuesdays. It's called The Big Swing, Shameless Pop. And it's all about the golf industry. And I am, at my age, I have a business partner who I am learning. Like, I feel like I'm in sixth grade. Um, and I'm grateful that my mind and my personality still kind of allow me to recognize my own ignorance or naivete.

28:47Um, I think that I was so fortunate, David, I, I, you must feel the same way, you know, be a sponge. I tell this to my kids, you know, there's no shame in not knowing, right? learn and take, it's okay to take from people, you know, aspects that you admire from them. And I think it's only a fool who doesn't. And then, you know, getting back to what I said before, you got to be able to look in the mirror, you know, because people are not going to universally love everything you do. But if you know, it's the right thing, if you're goal oriented, I really believe, and you're decent to people. You know, that's a companion thing.

29:32You got to be decent because not all decisions are easy. Look, you know that, you know, the businesses that you've led, you got to make some hard decisions, but if decency governs you and it's the way you go about your business, you can look at yourself in the mirror and you can sleep at night.

29:47David Novak:You know, speaking of learning, you've covered so many different events from the Olympics, heavyweight championship bouts, the Super Bowls. What do you think that diverse set of experiences has really given you? I think diversity of experience is just nothing but great for everybody. You know, I try and talk to my kids about that. In our house, I'm married to a woman who was a very accomplished network television news producer who could care less about sports. She has, her sentence in life is that she has three sons, you know, one of whom works for the NHL. The other one was a sportscaster, has been a sportscaster.

30:35And the other one is about to graduate college and all he wants to do is be involved in sports. So, but I, you know, I encourage them to look at their mom and see what her interests are. And it's all about diversity of thought. It really is. I just think that that gives you better perspective on life, you know, learn.

30:57David Novak:You know, to produce at the level that you've produced and to do it for the number of years that you've done it, you got to have elite discipline. You know, what process have you built into your schedule to consistently perform at a high level? Okay. So I feel very strongly, Again, I hate to bring my family back into this, but I've been telling my kids this forever. There are three things that I think are essential. For me, a lot of that has to do with the fact that I grew up with what I now recognize as a learning disability. I had, you know, ADHD, which, you know, half the population does. But that meant that I just had to try harder or I had to find my lane, find my process.

31:43And so for me, I tell my kids and I tell young people when I talk to them also this, three things important. Number one, work hard. And, you know, that may seem kind of obvious, but you need to work hard all the time. You know, nobody should outwork you. That doesn't mean you need to be ragged, but you need to feel that, again, you look in the mirror. Did you give it your all? And I think a lot of that has to that came from my participation in sports, because, you know, if you failed, you know, a lot of times you could look at yourself and say, was I, you know, did I work my hardest? But the next two things I think apply to everybody as well.

32:27work hard, be organized, and be prepared. When I first got to NBC, I didn't do a lot of studio broadcasting. I did a lot of feature reporting and live reporting from the field. But I got to NBC and I ended up doing a lot of studio work. I hosted the halftime of Notre Dame for a bunch years and Wimbledon and this sports update that I did hundreds and hundreds of them through the years, maybe thousands, who knows, but it was being in a studio and it meant developing a different skill. And what I needed to do to kind of make sure that we have this saying, it's, you know, somebody with my, my best friend who is a producer always say to me, had the telecast go.

33:16And I'd say, well, there's no blood on the floor. That's, you know, that's job one, you know, get through it cleanly. And for me, what that meant was I had to be organized because, I mean, you look around and you look at people like, you know, Mike Tirico, I'll leave it at that. He's my colleague, longtime friend. He is a freak. He is so exceptionally talented. And I worked one of his first shows with him at ESPN in the studio together. And I remember thinking to myself, This guy just has a talent that's exceptional. He really is extraordinary. And there are people like that who just are really good at it.

33:54Bob Costas was good at it. Jim Nance is good at it. And you could go on and on. I wasn't. So I had to figure out how can I make sure that there's no blood on the floor, okay? So for me, that's make sure that I rolled into that studio. Every time I'm in front of a camera, I want to make sure I am prepared. You know, I want to make sure that there isn't anything that has eluded me to get to this moment and be organized. You know, have what was the old book? Know where your cheese is. You need to know where you can get your hands on what you need to do the job. So be organized, be prepared, work hard.

34:34And what I always say that that creates, I think that creates a sense of confidence and calm in me, which allows me to be the best that I can be.

34:44David Novak:Hello, everyone. I hope you are loving this conversation between David and Jimmy. I know I sure am, and it has me all in my feels about the Olympic Games coming up. As always, stay tuned to the very end of the episode so that you don't miss the debrief that David and I have about his conversation with Jimmy. You'll get some real practical tips that you can apply to your life and to your leadership. And you'll also hear a pretty epic story about David Novak's experience at the Olympic Games himself. So stay tuned to The Debrief, and I will see you soon. You know, Jimmy, there's so much, you know, going on right now with AI, artificial intelligence.

35:21David Novak:And, you know, when you think about the creative product that you produce, you know, do you use AI at all in your job? And two-part question here, you know, what should leaders not outsource to AI? I haven't really started to use AI to the degree that I know that I eventually will. My kids use it. There are lots of applications that I don't love about it because I think it can be a crutch. It can be a tool, but it can be a crutch. I mean, we're clearly heading in a direction where it's just going to accelerate. So get with the program or, you know, get gone. I will say my oldest son is a senior at the University of Michigan.

36:11And one of the proudest moments I had was he came to me, he's in his last semester now. And he said, you know, I'm putting together my course load for my last semester. And I think I'm going to take creative writing. And I thought, I love that, you know, because a lot of people say that writing is one of the things that AI is just going to gobble up. And in fact, it does, it, it will, and it can. But I think that, you know, when you learn to write, it's basically organizing your thoughts. And so I think that's a really valuable tool. There are so many applications, David, in, in, in our business for AI, um, particularly when it comes to research for getting prepared to do something.

37:01But I don't think I've kind of fully scratched the surface here on how I might be able to use it yet.

37:07David Novak:You talked about how you've done hundreds of stories, maybe thousands of stories, you know, and, you know, you're so, you know, so acknowledged at being one of the best in your field. How do you fight complacency? You know, leaders have got to make sure that they keep that edge. How do you keep your edge? I said it before, lots of times a story will find you. I get excited. I know something excites me. I mean, at the point in my career where, you know, I recognize that not everything is going to be the best, you know, not everything is going to win an Emmy, but I have a responsibility to try my hardest, give it my all.

37:49But there are some times when something, a story comes and it taps you on the shoulder, you just can't help yourself. and I think you need to surrender to it. There are a couple of instances. I did a story for the Paris Olympics a couple of years ago that is the best thing that I've ever done for a number of reasons. You know, there've been a couple of things through the years. I once did a story a couple of years ago about a guy who was serving a long sentence in Attica Prison for murder. And of course, you know, the old story is that prisons are filled with people who are innocent. And, you know, at least that's what they'll tell you.

38:27Well, it turns out this guy was. And we helped. We were among a group of people who ended up being able to get him out of prison. He spent 27 years in Attica. He's an artist. His name is Valentino Dixon. That's some of the artwork he did. But he was he loves golf. Never played, but he became a big fan of golf because he loved to draw pictures of golf courses. in terms of the Olympics. It's still to this day, the greatest experience that I've ever had in terms of a story was doing the story on Dan Jansen winning his gold medal in 1994 because the backstory was just, you know, it just seemed impossible.

39:07These are stories that, like I say, that tap you on the shoulder and you just know and you just get excited about it. I don't know that my personality would ever allow me to be complacent. I can barely sit still, which hurts me sometimes, but it's a really good, it's a really good question. I think you got to make sure that you're not phoning it in. Listen, I think there are a bunch of people who are phoning it in and I don't think you'll see them really rise to the top of whatever it is they do because that becomes apparent, I think.

39:43David Novak:You cover the masters. You spend a lot of time at Augusta National. It's sacred ground, obviously. And from a leadership standpoint, what do you think that Augusta National gets right in terms of tradition and excellence that other organizations could learn from? Augusta is just, it's singular. And the reason is, in my opinion, because they are the only organization I have ever seen. Forget about sports, anywhere. Augusta National is willing to leave money on the table in order to do things the way they think are right. That's so exceptional, you know, to me. I mean, do you know of any other business that's willing to say, yeah, I'll take less money?

40:32And I'm not suggesting that I know the intimate details of their negotiations, but my experience, and I've been going there since the early 1990s, was that they want to do things the way they want to do things. And they are willing to, I don't want to say suffer the consequences, but they're willing to live by whatever that necessitates. And I just think that's so rare. I mean, the place is just so exceptional. And I love it. I mean, it's unique.

41:04David Novak:You're back to that upbringing that you got from your parents, the do the right things and the right things happen. Seems to be a big philosophy of yours. Yeah, I mean, I love what Fred Ridley, Chairman Ridley, you know, did creating, you know, the Augusta National Women's Amateur. I mean, that event in just such a short period of time has become, I mean, it was, again, kind of like a duh moment. Like, why didn't we think of this before? It's just, it's great. So a lot of great stuff. You know, you obviously know as much about golf as most people would ever could possibly know. You know, when you look at the PGA and Live, you know, what do you think the learning is there from a leadership perspective?

41:51Well, you know, we just sat down with Greg Norman for our show. Boy, I think there's a lot to be learned. You know, from the beginning, my opinion is I think it was a mistake for the tour not to at least hear them out. see what they had in mind. You know, a lot of this has happened behind closed doors, so it's hard to know what, you know, what was and wasn't said. But I think it's clear that the existence of Live kind of moved the PGA Tour to a different place. We'll see what that means. You know, we'll see if that has been good for the game or not. Now, personally, I think where the PGA Tour seems to be headed, again, just my opinion, is the right place.

42:42I mean, David, you remember when we were younger that golf, the PGA Tour golf started in January, ended in August. and again, I've said this so many times in the last couple of weeks, but I wasn't a very good student in terms of math and quantitative analysis is not exactly my forte, but I always thought that to make something more valuable, you make less of it, not more of it. And I think that it was a big mistake for the tour to expand to the degree that it did in the 1990s. I get why they did it. You know, they had a unique asset, Tiger Woods, you know, anytime he showed up at a tournament, it meant massive television ratings.

43:25And, you know, I think, but I think they're heading back to a more sensible place. and I think Brian Rolap is really an interesting guy. One of the things that I think that he said that I think really is refreshing is that they won't be a slave to history, that they want to make sure that everything is going to be considered as potentially possible. They're going to do whatever is best for the game. They're going to respect the traditions of the game but not be slave to them and I think that's a really good perspective.

44:01David Novak:You know, Mitch, before you've received multiple Emmys and significant recognition for your work. When you get awards, what does it do or not do for your psyche? I mean, how important is it? You know, maybe when I was younger, it meant a lot. When I think back, there is one award that I've gotten that kind of stood out. and I won an Emmy once for writing. And all of my heroes, the people I looked up to were writers, at least in this industry, Jack Whitaker, Jim McKay, Dick Schaap, a guy named Judd Rose, who I was a producer for. You know, I admired writers. So to me, and it doesn't really mean anything, you know, as long as you try your hardest and you do your best work, I think that all of that stuff doesn't matter.

44:59Is it better to win than not win? I suppose so. But to me, whatever recognition I've ever had, that one to me really meant something because it made me feel like I was, at least in the conversation with people who I admired, really good, thoughtful writers who organized their thoughts and presented them in a way that made sense.

45:25David Novak:You know, this has been so much fun, Jimmy. I want to have a little bit more with my lightning round of questions. Are you ready for this? All right, I'm ready. The three words that best describe you. Energetic, impatient, loving. If you could be one person for a day beside yourself, who would it be? Wouldn't it just be fascinating to know what it's like to be the president of the United States just for a day? And I'm not talking about this president, the former president, or anyone through history. But wouldn't it just be fascinating to understand what it's like from the pressures and the experience?

45:59I mean, I think that'd be wild. Your biggest pet peeve. Okay, I got a lot of them, but I got to share this one. Okay, it's a language pet peeve. It makes me crazy when I hear people use the word like constantly when they're talking. Like, you know, like this. I saw him and he like said this to me and I like didn't like that. I want to tear my hair out. And the other one is there's a specific piece of language that I, it's a big pet peeve with me. People who use the word reticent as a synonym for the word reluctant. I'm not going to go any further than that. They are two very different words. If you care at all, just look it up.

46:45They're not the same. They don't mean the same thing. Who would play you in a movie? Seth Rogen. A story you almost didn't tell, but are glad you did. That story I mentioned before from the Paris Olympics. The most fulfilling thing I've ever done.

47:06David Novak:One Olympic moment that always gives you chills.

47:122002, Salt Lake City Olympics, six months after 9-11. I was given the honor of doing the interview with the person or people who were to light the Olympic flame. I remember standing at the top of the stadium in Salt Lake City, watching the torch. I'm getting chills right now. Watching that torch ascend the stairs and it was the Miracle on Ice team who lit the flame. And I looked to my left and I looked to my right and here were all these American heroes who meant so much to our country. Six months after 9-11, wearing their jerseys and peering around the corner. And the flame got out there and they all ran out and came together and lit the flame.

47:54And I did the interview with Michael Ruzzioni and Jim Craig. That to me was just such an honor and such a moment. It's just so meaningful to me.

48:06David Novak:Of the books you've written, which is the most special and why? It's like asking for your favorite children. Um, I'm, I just finished writing a novel, which is yet to be published. That to me was, I think that was, that's been a lot of fun. I think my first book, and, um, it was the book, uh, called breaking the slump, which I started out writing a book about golf. It ended up being a book about how successful people handle adversity. It was a bunch of golfers, president Bush 41 did a chapter with me. But it was my first book. And the fact that I actually could do it was really meaningful. It's funny.

48:46I remember calling my sister. I'm very close to one of my sisters. And I said to her, Nancy, I'm going to write a book. And there was silence on the other end of the line. And she said, I think mom and dad would have been really happy if they knew that you had just read a book. So anyway, my first book.

49:02David Novak:What's something you've been curious about lately that has absolutely nothing to do with anything that you do at work? Cooking and guitar playing. Those are the two things that I, cooking I love to do, and that's because I love to eat. Guitar playing, I just, I love music. I really love music, and you know, in my fantasy, you know, my dreams, I'm a good guitar player, but that's really not the case. What's the one thing you do just for you? I walk with my dog. I have a yellow lab. His name is Buddy. He's seven years old. And when I need to clear my head, Buddy and I go on long walks, usually around six miles.

49:48And I don't like to walk with other people. Sometimes I'll listen to a podcast. I'll probably listen to this one on my next one, next walk. But a lot of times it's just to clear my head. And, you know, I do that just because it makes me feel good. It's really just self-indulgent.

50:04David Novak:Besides your family and friends, what's your most prized possession? These days, my sanity. If I turned on the radio in your car, what would I hear? Steely Dan, The Beatles, The Allman Brothers, classical music, bluegrass, and noose. What's something about you few people would know? Well, I don't know if this qualifies, but one time, I mean, I've done so much work and golf. I think I once was in an airport and somebody said to me, Hey, I love your work. And I said, what I always say, which is, Hey, thanks so much for watching. And the guy says, but you know, I was looking it up. What years did you play on tour?

50:42So apparently, you know, he certainly didn't know that I, that, that, that, that is not the level of my skill. I'll just leave it at that.

50:51David Novak:All right. We're out of the lightning round here. Just a few more questions and I'll, I'll wrap this up. You know, you mentioned your book that you wrote about your first book about adversity. So how leaders handle adversity. What's the, what's the biggest thing you learned from writing that book about that topic? Yeah. Listen, everybody's got, you know, adversity in their lives. Um, it takes different forms. Um, I remember, you know, some of the people I talked to had challenges. One of my favorite stories from the book was Scott Verplank. Like, you know, he had, I mean, he was a, he won a professional tournament as an amateur and he was going to be the next big thing.

51:32But Scott had a bunch of physical challenges. He is diabetic. But more than that, he had some issues with his elbow and his shoulder or elbow and his arm. I think that challenges come in all forms. listen, you can just roll over and surrender or you can fight. And I, I think that, you know, again, it's easy for me to say, knock wood, that things are relatively okay with me, but you got to fight. You got to fight.

52:04David Novak:You know, Jimmy, I just want to say this personally, you know, it, it may, it meant a great deal to me when you, you wrote that piece about me winning the Shinnecock Club Championship. One of my favorite stories, David. I'm a story guy. You captured it beautifully, at least from my perspective. I mean, I don't know if anybody else thought so. But what are moments like that, you know, where you're telling someone else's story mean to you at this stage in your career? I mean, you know, I'm a nobody, obviously, but you found a story there. My wife always says that I don't talk to people. I interview them.

52:40I'm just, you know, I should have, when going back to what you said before about a word about myself, another one is curious. I am just curious. I want to know about people. I'm interested to hear their stories. And that is not an affectation. That's just me. I, and I think that for better or worse, I kind of landed in the right place because you know, what I do for a living kind of satisfies that Jones in me. I, I'm curious about people and their stories. And I'm kind of thrilled when I hear them. I mean, your story about, you know, the oldest guy to ever win the club championship at Shinnecock, I was fascinated by that.

53:24And, you know, not only that, but, you know, the fellow you beat who'd won the championship a couple of times is a good friend of mine. And I just, I am always, I always feel like in life, I'm at a cocktail party and listening to people. I am very, very wary of people who don't listen. I heard something genius the other day. Some people are listening. Some people are just waiting to talk. Just think about that for a second. You know, listening is an active skill. You know, some people, you know, when you have a conversation with them, you kind of get the feeling like they just can't wait to talk.

54:11And then there are other people who they're listening. They're actually listening. And I just think we all need to listen more.

54:19David Novak:What do you see as your unfinished business now, Jimmy? We just started this new company, Big Swing Media, and I am the chief operating officer. And I have a partner and he and I have launched this new business. And if you would have told me that I was going to do something like this at this point in my life, I would have never thought so, but this is something that I'm passionate about. It's all about the business side of golf, which we really feel like nobody's been covering. And I am working with some amazing people and I feel a tremendous responsibility to them to make this thing successful.

54:58And so my unfinished business right now is to make the big swing as good as it can be.

55:07David Novak:Last question. What's one piece of advice you'd give to anyone who wants to be a better leader? I would just say, David, there are hard decisions that need to be made a lot of times. But I think compassion goes a long way. And again, I get that. I'd like to think I get that from my parents. That time I spent with Mark Messier, I mean, that guy was fierce as a player. I mean, you still look at him today and he's a little scary. He's a scary looking guy. But I can't tell you, and again, you know the guy. He is all about the team and supporting the people that he works with so that together, you know, greater things can happen.

55:53And I think there's really something, I think there's something there.

55:57David Novak:Jimmy, there's obviously a lot there with you. You're a hell of a good guy. You're so talented and just a pleasure to be with. And I look forward to being with you soon and, you know, hopefully getting to play a round of golf this year. That'd be fun. David, listen, this was this was a lot of fun. I love talking to you. I love hearing about what you've done and learning about what's next. So we'll tee it up soon.

56:28David Novak:David, what an amazing episode to air right before the Olympics. And believe it or not, just two weeks ago, I was actually in Cortina, Italy, skiing down the very slopes that some of the Olympic skiers will be skiing down in competition. The only difference is they didn't fall down all along the way, right? I knew it was coming. I knew it was coming. That was such a softball. I knew it was coming. That was an easy one, yes. By the way, you know, I actually, I went to the Albertville Olympics in France in 1992 Winter Olympics. and Sports Illustrated took me because I was running marketing at the Pepsi-Cola company.

57:07David Novak:I remember skiing to the events because they had special access, you know, where we could actually ski to the events. Now that is going to the Olympics in style. Doesn't happen these days. Doesn't happen these days, but it was great. You know, there's so many great moments that I think back of the Olympics I was able to attend. I've been fortunate enough to be able to go to a few. But I'll never forget the one in the United States in Atlanta, you know, when Muhammad Ali lit the torch, you know, and he made it up there somehow. OK. And, you know, I know all the organizers behind that event had a lot of concern about whether it could be pulled off.

57:48David Novak:that somehow this guy, one of the greatest champions to ever participate in any sport, you know, had the strength and the stamina and the desire to light that torch. And it's inspired people all over the world. The Olympics just makes me feel good. I remember I was a gymnast when I was younger, and I will never forget watching. Another one of your great sports, huh?

58:15David Novak:Exactly. That's good. Allow me to continue. I'll never forget watching Dominique Mucciano on the balance beam. I will truly never forget. I thought I was going to be her one day. And then just like your MLB career, my professional gymnastics career also went to die. But it just makes you feel good. And I'm so glad that we have Jimmy on the show this week because his voice is somewhat synonymous with the Olympics. And I'm so excited to see everything unfold. But David, in our debrief today, what I want to do is also get everyone in the Olympic spirit, but give our listeners some really tangible things that they can take away from this conversation so that they can level up their leadership and just show up in a more positive way.

58:56David Novak:The first thing I want to talk about, David, is a really interesting concept that you and Jimmy talked about in the episode. He mentioned that, you know, sometimes the answer to your problems is just to try less hard. And you mentioned when you were at Yum Brands, you talked to your teams about this concept of untrying and the importance of that. Explain what that is and why leaders should encourage that. Well, I think any performance coach will tell you that if you think about the outcome, that'll get in the way of the result because you're trying so hard to get the outcome that you desire, that you forget about what you have to do to get the outcome.

59:34David Novak:You know, you're much better off to follow the process that's going to get you the result than trying so hard to go from A to B. I'm sure you've seen people when they give presentations and they're trying so hard to do a great job, you almost feel it for them. They make you feel uneasy because you know they're struggling so hard versus someone who gets up there who's done the homework and is only focused on communicating their message to you. And they're not trying to impress. They're just trying to communicate. and in that case, that person is untrying. And, you know, that's what we mean by that.

1:00:15David Novak:And, you know, I think sometimes as a leader, words can be very powerful. So when you say untry, people go, what do you mean, untry? Well, you know, then you can explain what you mean by it. And that's a concept that we used all across young brands all around the world. And it wasn't that we didn't want to have effort. We wanted people putting the effort in, But we didn't want them to try so hard to keep them from performing at their very best. It's so true. When you cling so hard to what you want the outcome to be, it usually is the thing that gets in the way of you performing at your best, whether you are an Olympic athlete or just trying to win in business.

1:00:54David Novak:Yeah. And in sports, you know, how many times you've read the story about the guy or the woman who has a great career and they get in the playoff games and they don't perform. They don't score their 25 points a game anymore, okay? Because they're trying so hard to perform like they did in the regular season. And it keeps them from, you know, the peak performance you need to have at the right time of the year. Another concept that Jimmy talks about in the episode that I just love, he says it doesn't cost you anything as a leader to make someone feel good about themselves. And I love that concept.

1:01:28David Novak:But for leaders, that's a pretty hard thing to measure. I mean, making someone feel good about themselves is pretty intangible. and almost a little bit squishy, but I believe that it can have a real tangible impact in creating a culture where people feel like they really matter. How do you think about that? Well, you know, I'm going to tell a story since Jimmy Roberts is such a great storyteller, okay? And it's not a story that happened to me, but it's a story that someone told me. And Klaus Kleinfeld, who, you know, ran Alcoa and Siemens, and, you know, he used to work late, And, you know, he was out in the elevator and going in the elevator to go down.

1:02:08David Novak:And I think he met one of the guys that, you know, cleaned up the offices at night. And he knew him by his first name. And he always talked to him. And, you know, this guy said to him, he said, you know, thanks for talking to me. And the guy, Klaus, goes, what do you mean thanks for talking to you? I mean, you're a great guy and, you know, I enjoy talking. He says, well, a lot of people aren't that way. Most people don't see me. They look through me. That was such a powerful story for me because that's what leaders do. Leaders make others feel seen. They make other people feel appreciated. They give them the respect that they deserve.

1:02:57David Novak:They, you know, a person told me once, don't look up, don't look down, always look straight ahead. You're no better than anybody, so never look down. Nobody's better than you, so never look up. Just look people straight in the eye and treat everybody the same, regardless of what position they have. And it doesn't cost you anything as a leader to do that. And, you know, another little story is Colin Powell. You know, he told me that, you know, he worked in a bottling plant. He's a former secretary of state. He worked in a bottling plant, Pepsi bottling plant, and he mopped the syrup off the floor all summer long.

1:03:37And at the end of the summer, you know, a guy, the foreman comes up to him and says,

1:03:44David Novak:son, I've been watching you all summer long, and you've been making these floors sparkle all when you left. They were spick and span. You know, really appreciate the great job you did. Okay. And Colin Powell said that's when he learned the power of recognition because it says that people are watching. He didn't know anybody was really watching what he did. And, you know, it doesn't cost you anything when you see somebody do something good. And it doesn't cost you anything to recognize them. You know, you know, words of affirmation are powerful. Okay. And, you know, I think, and they can be given away appropriately if it's genuine.

1:04:26David Novak:And I don't think you have to look too hard to find people doing good things in this world. That's so true. I worked for a guy one time who said, we had this huge office building, lots of hallways and lots of rows of desks. And he says, if you're ever at the end of the hallway and someone else is at the other end, a colleague who you may not know, and you're walking past each other, never let that moment go by without just saying hi. because think about how many times you want to dodge your head or pretend like you're on your phone or just not speak to someone. That small interaction can actually go a really long way.

1:04:55David Novak:And if everybody's doing that, it creates the spirit of collaboration and connectedness that really does have real impact. I'm sure I've probably done that in my life, but I can't think of too many times when I have. I mean, it'd be hard for me to imagine walking by somebody and not saying hi. And I always would think very differently about someone who'd walk by me and not say hi. It's sort of like the person you wave to, you know, when you're driving out in your neighborhood and you wave and they know you, they see you waving them, they don't wave you back and go, what kind of, you know, what is that guy?

1:05:33David Novak:And, you know, but that person is the kind of person that doesn't necessarily look to find how to how to give people the acknowledgement that that they deserve. And, you know, Jimmy Roberts is a guy who is naturally curious. I mean, he is a broadcaster, reporter, so he lives on stories and thinks constantly about how to tell them in a way that really captures an audience. And, you know, he says the best stories really find him. And I think it's because he says that he's just a naturally curious person. But David, And for those people listening who might not consider themselves naturally curious, what do you think that they can do to find those points of meaning in those stories that really matter?

1:06:16Well, I think what, you know, Jimmy does is, number one,

1:06:21David Novak:he's got the mindset that has him on the lookout for him. You know, you're looking out, you're looking to find him. And because you're looking to find him, they come to you, okay? The other thing is that curiosity means that you have this insatiable desire to learn new things and learn about people. And the best way to do that is to learn how to ask questions. You know, one of the best ways to get to know someone is to really ask them questions and get them talking about themselves. You know, Dale Carnegie said that was the most powerful thing you could do in sales is to learn how to ask questions and get people talking about themselves.

1:07:07David Novak:Because if they could talk about themselves, they sure as hell like you. OK. Yeah. And that's how you influence people. So, you know, one of the best exercises we ever had at work when we were bringing new teams together was we'd have people, you know, sit across the table from each other and ask everybody to tell three things about themselves to the other person. You know, and those, you know, that shared experience of asking each other that question and then opening yourself up and giving three things about your life, you know, help people begin to get a bond. And, you know, I think that, you know, learning how to ask questions is important.

1:07:48David Novak:And it's becoming one of the things that people are trying to build into their cultures now, particularly when you're dealing with AI. because it's not enough just to go to chat GBT. What questions are you going to ask? You know, how can you really stimulate, you know, thought and conversation and elevate your game by learning through AI? And it's the questions that you ask that are going to be the most important. So the biggest thing I would do is just try to learn how to ask questions. And that means forcing yourself to ask questions and then getting better and better at it so you get better and better insights.

1:08:27David Novak:It's the questions you ask that give you the insights that are going to help you win. I think about it specifically around customer feedback. It's actually, it takes a good bit of mental energy to figure out what questions to ask customers in order to glean those insights that are really going to give you what you need to take action and make something better or improve your margins or whatever. So if you just ask, you know, binary questions, that's yes or no, at the end of the day, that's not going to give you a ton of real meaningful anecdotes to go on. But if you understand how to get that insight from them, the question changes things.

1:09:04David Novak:I totally agree with you. You know, that's why I love to do problem detection studies, because people are not very good at telling you what they like. Okay. They're very great at bitching, you know. So we would always try to ask people, you know, what are the problems? What are the things you dislike about a brand, you know, and if we could figure out what the most important problem was that occurred most frequently, we would always find a great consumer insight that could help us grow the business. But, you know, so there are a myriad of ways where you can get answers, but none of them come without having a question.

1:09:47David Novak:Absolutely. Absolutely, David. Well, I am so thrilled for the Olympics, And I'm so thrilled that Jimmy took the time to sit down with you because it's just a perfect way to kick off what is sure to be an amazing celebration over the next couple of weeks. Hope everyone listening enjoys watching the Olympics. And thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of How Leaders Lead with David Novak. We will see you next week.