#282: Peter Wharton-Hood, CEO, LIFE Healthcare Group – Pick team players over individual performers

26:30And inserting some of those parallels become quite interesting because they're technically relevant, but, you know, not healthcare specific. So you have these new thought processes that are going to be required for success in your industry. How do you bring your people along with you so that they adapt these processes or these thought processes that you're going to, you know are essential if you're going to continue to win? And I think therein lies one of the big challenges. Healthcare in South Africa changes very, very slowly. So you can have two decades of no change and then you can have massive change happen very, very quickly.

27:04And COVID is a good example of that in a nutshell. The technological evolution that's taking place in healthcare does frighten people. if one speaks about it irresponsibly. Some people draw a conclusion that robots will replace nurses. It's a ridiculous notion, David. Robots will never replace nurses. Certainly not in my tenure. But one does feel that people get threatened by change. And in so doing, one has to do it in a way that embraces the change for the purpose for which it's intended and the enviable outcomes that one wants to deliver. But you do it in a way that lets people feel that that's part of the new beginnings for them as players inside the organization as them being substituted.

27:44You've talked about people a number of times in your team. You've actually said, no staff, no business. Where did that belief in people come from in your career? And what do you do as a leader to drive that home to your leaders across the organization? If one looks at the successes that I've happened to be a part of, it's always been about teamwork. It's always been a team game, shared spoils and collective efforts. David, I don't actually know any other way. And that was the way that I was raised. That's the way that I've been trained. And if you really want a really good feeling, then succeed as a team.

28:31because that success shared is just a multiplication factor that is just so desirable that you want more of it. And in that context, showcasing teamwork has been exemplified to my executives on the basis that I will pick team players before individually brilliant people. And I've made that absolutely clear. Even great individuals have said, well, if I'm not a team player, then I don't have a place to, I don't belong in this team. And that has worked. Yes, it's quite a blunt statement, but it is what I believe and it is what I choose to pursue passionately. You're a team member. You're really smart.

29:11You got all the talent and you're not playing ball in your company. What's your coaching process for a person like that? First opportunity is to talk to them honestly. Try and find out what's driving the inconsistency in their behavior. And sometimes it's issues away from the workplace that they're battling with. And I think an insight into the individual and the challenges that they're faced with and demonstrating empathy builds trust. And trust allows you to deliver some of the tough messages without it appearing as though that you're trying to get them out. Because deep inside the people that I've worked with, the good human is there.

29:52It's sometimes blocked by other issues that they may be struggling with. And it may even be my management style. But if you allow them to articulate it and you find ways to be able to address it, the mentorship model and the ability to coach them is just that much easier. But that doesn't mean you can't deliver tough messages as and when they're required. Without going into names, obviously, what would be the toughest situation where you actually had to let somebody go and how'd you handle it? an individually brilliant person with no capacity to engage with the team and around which we built a promise to the marketplace where he was pivotal to the delivery thereof and I had to let him go.

30:37With consequences, ruffled feathers through the team, how we're going to deal with it in the marketplace and effectively I had to make the judgment call was are we going to try and manage around the individual or are we going to come up with a better plan? And in that particular set of circumstances, at great cost to the team, the individual had to be asked to leave. Those are the tough calls to make. But, you know, the good news is there's always people that are on the team and that get things done. You know, how do you make sure people feel seen and valued? How do you go about that as a leader?

31:14I think there are multiple aspects that keep people engaged inside an organization, and it's not money. I think there are other aspects that one needs to work on. And if you split it into three, providing them with the challenge that they feel stretched by brings them to work, making sure that they feel appreciated, not in a financial sense, but in a management recognition sense, pays huge dividends going forward. and making sure that the right hygiene factors within the corporate are taking care of their ambitions with a decent runway for them and understanding where their career is going actually shows that they're taking very good care of.

31:56That three-way model, once it cements with great individuals, they don't leave. They have difficult times every now and again. So it's a deliberate view not to just think that you solve these challenges with money that forces you to think about the issues that are really important to people. How do you personally recognize people? Do you have any way that you do it? There's no sort of unique signature that I would say that everyone would say they've been treated the same way, but I make sure that the recognition and appreciation is always there. I engage with my direct reports continuously so that by the time it gets to formal appraisals at half and full year end, there aren't any surprises.

32:36They tend to be relatively easy conversations. So it's ongoing dialogue. David, it's about being present. When they have meetings with you that you focus, that you're listening, that they know that you're listening, that you can remember the questions that they ask and the answers that you've given. And to make sure that you've taken them seriously as individuals would be what I would like to be remembered for. It's not always that easy. Pressure times do create slight differences in behavior. But that's the way that I like for people to feel that I'm engaged with them and I'm interested in them and I care about them.

33:10You've been described by many people as a leader who truly backs their people. I mean, you walked a talk on this dimension. Tell us about a time you put your own credibility on the line for someone on your team, where you really had to back somebody that maybe people weren't necessarily sure of. Absolutely. And it springs to mind almost immediately that in my current job, and we won't mention names because you asked not to, but I decided to take an individual who had a unique skill set, was completely not qualified for the role that I wanted to place the individual in, and made the decision, and I didn't get support from anybody.

33:53Everybody thought I was crazy. I put my own stamp on and said, if it doesn't work, I'll take the hit. And I'm delighted to say that four years later, it's turned out to be exactly the right decision for the company, the individual, and the outcomes that we needed to deliver. But David was the only time in my career where I got absolutely no support for a decision and had to stand my ground. And, you know, what was it that gave you that conviction to do that? Because a lot of people wimp out. In this particular instance, getting to some of the finer details, it was all around people and culture.

34:27And I don't believe that you learn people and culture in a book. And I don't believe that you get a degree in people and culture. I think you've either got it in your DNA or you haven't. And the ability to engage with people across multiple cultures in very different circumstances and form a cohesive view as to where the organization needs to be patched up or needs to be matured, I think takes tremendous people insight. And my instincts were that this individual had it. And that's all it took. Then you follow that gut. You know, you're a leader who clearly leads by example. I mean, you mentioned you don't ask people to do anything that you wouldn't do.

35:06And I think that's a very powerful point, obviously. So when you think about that and you think about behaviors you want to drive in your organization, what's been the hardest behavior to get others to adopt in your culture that you know is really important? I think in the context of, Across the decades, the consistency of being transparent with your colleagues has been the most difficult to achieve. And I think that that resistance comes for a variety of reasons. You need confidence to be transparent with a colleague because it's quite difficult to tell someone you don't like what they're doing.

35:50different hierarchical structures, even in a flat organizational structure, tend to create power gaps where people are either scared or lack the confidence to be able to address the issue. And sometimes people are just too nice, that they feel that by confronting an individual around behavior that they will be seen to be offensive. It's completely understandable. So creating that environment where the consistency of engagement across executives is transparent, honest, and productive is a constant nurturing because that requires effort and work all the time. You're obviously a hell of a nice guy.

36:28I mean, you're just a good guy. People love being around you. You're so empathetic. But I'm sure, like most nice guys, you want to be liked. I mean, you know, it's kind of in our DNA. You know, you have a desire to be liked. How do you manage that desire to be liked if you think you have it, okay? And still be able to make the tough call? I think, David, that's probably part of me that has morphed over the years. I think in the formative years as a younger leader, you want to be liked. But I had a great mentor. and his wise words to me were, leadership is not a popular position and you're not there to be their friends, you're there to be their leader and there will be moments where what you decide is not going to be a popular outcome and you grow, shall we say a slight, immunity would be the wrong word, but you grow an increasing sense of responsibility that doing what is right for the individuals and for the company may come at a personal price.

37:36And that's the price that leaders have to pay. That if you constantly seek popularity or box yourself into a corner where you'll make the wrong decisions, back the wrong person, or do what's not in the best interest of the company. So I've had to numb myself to the fact that there will be moments of time where I'm not popular. And that just is a price I have to pay as opposed to the alternative, which is not in my DNA to walk down that path. You know, you've obviously overseen technology and operations on a global scale. What's one mistake you see leaders make when they're trying to, let's call it, say digitally transform an organization?

38:19David, I smile because I'm trapped in immediately in that problem again as we speak. Standard Bank days, we rode the technology curve. We were at the cutting edge of technology, IBM's largest installation in the Southern Hemisphere. We were their beta site for a number of cutting edge moments and proudly took it as the way forward in banking. It comes at a price. You need a big balance sheet. You've got to accept that you're going to make mistakes. And the lesson that I learned there was that technology started to move at such a fast pace that being on the cutting edge, you could be trapped in an environment that became dated quite quickly.

39:01Fast forward 15 years later into healthcare and what we're seeing now is that the technology edge and we as a corporation are currently behind the technology frontier is moving that quickly that the deliberate bet we are taking is to stall the implementations that the market is suggesting are obvious on the basis that we think that technology is going to move that much quicker, that it'll be cheaper in a year's time and probably much easier to implement. And you only have to have a look what's happened in AI in the last six months to realize that this curve is moving really, really quickly. So I'm an outlier in the decision by resisting the change and the momentum, knowing that there comes a stage we're going to have to be a very, very fast follower.

39:45And hopefully that strategy succeeds. Yeah, so you're consciously not trying to lead. You're going to be that fast follower. That takes some courage because people can say, man, we're getting left behind. I mean, they got to be pounding your office door. Like, they're doing this, they're doing this. You know, why aren't we going? And that's happened both internally from the board and from the market's perspective. But the approach to solving that particular pressure problem is to have a very clear view as to where you're going and also have a very clear plan as to how you're going to get there.

40:19The only thing that's then going to change is the timeline. And the optionality to be able to accelerate the timeline is far easier than having to say, oops, we made a mistake to reverse and start again. And I think therein is the conservative nature of actually holding back just for the time being. How are you preparing your team for the role that AI is playing across healthcare right now? And not just operationally, but culturally. How do you personally think about driving the need for AI in your organization? I think there comes a junction in the organization where you split in a healthcare world AI and what it will deliver clinically, supplement to or complement doctor's judgment or specialist judgment in clinical circumstances, and how we view AI from the process and procedural perspective back in the operations of the company.

41:10Clearly, the latter is a much easier one to contemplate because robotic process automation and the use of AI in process-driven improvements is largely non-threatening. It's largely understood, and it's easy to create from a business case perspective. The juncture between patient care and specialist judgment in particular issues then takes on a multiplicity of permutations. Radiology is probably the best example that I can give, David, that AI in the radiology world, if you go back a year, everyone said would drive radiologists out of business because the computer was going to do everything that they could do.

41:49Interestingly enough, more recent statistics have shown that the use of AI has driven an increase in the demand for radiology expertise because the volumes have increased. The basic cases are being handled by the computer and more complex cases are now finding their way to the radiologist at an increasing level of frequency. So exactly the opposite to the prediction has actually taken place. The way that we bring it to bear in the organization is make them feel comfortable. This is part of progress. Understand how it can benefit the organization and understand how you as an individual need to adapt in what you deliver so that you're part of the wave that moves forward and not fighting it.

42:28How are you personally thinking about AI in terms of how it's going to make you a better leader? And that's been an intrigue for me because my younger daughter thinks that I'm clueless. In bringing this together, part of the experiences that have been brought to be is how it's made a whole lot of day-to-day work that much more efficient. I've also become intrigued by the level of curiosity that you can express and the questions that you can ask because you can ask what might be a dumb question in public, in private, and at least see what answer comes back before you embarrass yourself publicly.

43:05But it's just another moment to be able to get an opinion. I think that a diverse team, a diverse board has got a multiplicity of backgrounds, assumptions, and ways of seeing questions answered. And I think you've got to give AI an opportunity as well. So it's another member in a team from an executive perspective where it's not unreasonable to ask the question, but you can't abdicate and you can't be driven by it because eventually there's a reversion to a norm where everyone's got the same weapon and we're all going to look the same if we constantly think about AI the same way. So use it, but make sure you don't stop thinking and try and see what edges that creates.

43:41You know, speaking of thinking, one CEO I talked to recently, he was talking about the importance of being able to ask the right questions. It's not just taking AI, but then having the question, the ability to ask the right questions and keep pushing AI that was really making the difference. And he was trying to build that ability to ask the right question in this organization. What's your perspective on that? David, I go back to some of the greatest leaders that I've worked for. They always ask the right question. They just had a way of being able to do it where it prompted more thoughts before you gave answers.

44:18And by the time you've given the answer to the first question, it had already prompted the next question and the next question and the next question. So I see the engagement with AI as being part of an executive responsibility. If you can't ask your own team members the right question, you'll never be able to ask AI the right question. So I think it's part and parcel of the growth and development that now you just have to ask more questions and you've got to ask them faster. So I think it's actually made our jobs more difficult as leaders as opposed to easier. You know, you say that if you don't understand yourself, you cannot be a leader.

44:56Say more. I think levels of self-awareness shape the person that other people receive. And I think that understanding the person that you are is fundamentally important so that you can position yourself correctly. Because ultimately, social engagements and business engagements are about how you integrate with others. If you're aware of your blind spots, if you're aware of your weaknesses, if you're aware of your idiosyncrasies, I think gives you a far better way of being able to articulate who you are, why you are, and be able to adapt to different circumstances. So I think that that comes as part of the top three attributes that I would see in leaders, that self-aware is fundamentally important.

45:39So I got to ask the follow-up here. You know, when you look at yourself today as a leader, how do you see yourself today as a leader? And how do you want to be even better tomorrow? I think, David, there's no excuse for not being present. and the more you know, the more you've got to listen because you keep learning. And I think that the pressure I put myself under is to make sure that I listen more, speak less and allow other people the opportunity to express themselves because that gives me the chance to be able to assimilate the input that I'm getting and hopefully then make the right decisions, be they commercial, be they social or be they the mentorship and coaching roles that leaders have to play.

46:24So listening becomes ever increasingly more important in the way that I see things. Peter, I got to tell you, this has been a lot of fun and I want to have some more with my lightning round of questions. So are you ready for this? Hit me. What three words best describe you? Passionate, courageous, diligent. Your biggest pet peeve? Lazy. Who would play you in a movie? George Clooney. Something you'd only know about South Africa if you're from there. 11 different cultures within a plane flight, a short plane flight away from wherever you are. So you're an avid golfer, I know that. Your dream foursome, dead or alive, these people could be.

47:04Ben Crenshaw, Ben Hogan, Tiger Woods. Your all-time best round of golf. Level power round, Royal Johannesburg, early 90s. What's something you've been curious about lately that has absolutely nothing to do with work? I'm an avid photographer. And the synchronicity behind aperture, shutter speed, ISO tradels, and exposure compensation and low light has baffled me. So I've been reading about it and I still haven't got the answer right. What's the one thing you do just for you? I take half an hour each day to think. Besides your family and friends, what's your most prized possession? A motor car.

47:47Can I ask which one? It's a Ferrari F40. All right. If I turn the radio on in your car, in your Ferrari, what would I hear? Earth, wind, and fire, September. What's something about you few people would know? That I got bullied at school. If you could be one person for a day, who would it be? Leonardo da Vinci. We're out of the lightning round. You did well, Peter. Here we go. Just a few more questions. We'll wrap this up. And, you know, leadership, obviously, people always say, oh, it's lonely at the top. But it can be isolating at times. You know, who do you rely on to tell you the truth? My wife.

48:27Now, your wife, Sarah, what's the best example of how she's really made you a better leader? I think, you know, we've been married for 38 years. And the context, sorry, 37 years. I better make sure I get that right. I thought it was been real trouble. We've grown together. and over the years she's always managed to keep me grounded. Sometimes I can be too optimistic, too ambitious or perhaps a little bit impulsive. It comes from the enthusiasm with which I approach each day and she has a grounded way of making sure that causes me to think. And the lifestyle change from being retired to working, it came, as I said earlier in the chat today, David, where she said to me, this is not going to work.

49:11And she called it. she calls it with care and love, but doesn't mince her words when she needs to get the message across. What's leadership look like at home for you? I mean, is it any different than how you lead at work? At least at work, I'm considered the boss.

49:34I live with Sarah and my two strong-willed girls. It's a collaborative environment. Each one gets a chance to speak. Each one is a good listener, but each one of them has very firm opinions. And we ultimately end up making the decisions that are in the best interest of the family. And so doing, everyone gets their chance to express their views. But I'm delighted with the logic and the way that things get done. But every now and again, some of the tougher decisions have to get delegated. What do you see as your unfinished business? I think the context of where I find myself today, David, is that healthcare in South Africa has got its challenges around accessibility and affordability.

50:22There's a bifurcation in the market where private healthcare delivered in South Africa is top class amongst the best countries in the world. And the public healthcare system is failing 50 million people. We have spare capacity sitting in the private healthcare system. and I need to find a way to cross a bridge with government that allows us to utilize some of that spare capacity for the underserved portion of the nation of South Africa. It's an incredibly difficult challenge, but one which is appropriately positioned in this country right here and now. And it might not be about just getting the solution, it's about getting the dialogue to be handled in a constructive way.

51:03As I think about this conversation we've had, You kind of remind me of a teddy bear that can be a grizzly bear. I don't think that's unfair. How do you respond to that? I don't think that's unfair. People that have known and worked with me for a long time do understand there's a fun side, there's a cuddly side, there's an approachable side. But there is a moment in time where tough decisions will, if they need to be taken, they will get taken. I'm just hopeful that in doing it, that the right decision gets achieved, but it doesn't come by damaging people. that is my worst fear. Last question. What's one piece of advice you'd give to anyone who wants to be a better leader?

51:43Hard work intersects with good luck. And if you present those two on a consistent basis with the care for humans around you, you'll find you'll get people to follow you. And if you can do that, there's no setting any boundaries as to where the limits are. Peter, I knew this was going to be a fantastic conversation. I want to thank you for taking the time to do it. You're a hell of a good person and obviously a great leader. And congratulations on all your success. David, thank you so much. I've really enjoyed it. And thank you for the way that you've made me think and for the fun that it's been.

52:19I've really enjoyed it. Thank you.

52:25David, I think this marks the first time I've ever heard you call a podcast guest a teddy bear and a grizzly bear. Well, that's because he reminds me so much of myself. You know, I was called that by Dave Dorman, who used to be on our board when I was at Young Brands. And he called me a teddy bear that could be a grizzly bear. And when I was talking to Peter, I thought, if there's ever a teddy bear that could be a grizzly bear, it's him. He's taken over my role. But, you know, I think that basically means that, look, you know, people may think you're kind of soft and you're very, you know, into treating people well and being as kind as you can possibly be.

53:12But if people don't perform or people take advantage or people get out of line, you can very quickly become tough minded and let people know that that's unacceptable. and we got to change things around here with your performance and how you're acting. And I think that's what you get from the discussion we had with Peter. He's an awesome guy, much more awesome than me, by the way. And probably a much better teddy bear and a much better grizzly bear when he has to be. Well, you can certainly tell that he is able to lean into both of those facets of his personality throughout this conversation. And David, I want to debrief some of the other concepts that you two talked about so that everyone listening has something really tangible that they can take away from this conversation and apply it to their leadership and to their life.

54:04In the episode, David, Peter talks about the cost of leadership. And he mentions, you know, leadership isn't always a popular position. Sometimes doing what is right and best for the company may come at a personal price or may make people dislike you. Talk about how you navigated that throughout your career. I mean, we just said it, you know, sometimes you have to be a grizzly bear and sometimes you can be a teddy bear. How do you navigate that tension as the leader who has to make those unpopular calls? Well, I think when you are the leader, there is a cost of leadership, you know, and that is you have to make the decisions.

54:36You have to make the tough call when it's there. You know, it's always fun when everybody agrees and it's easy to make those decisions. But there are times when not everyone agrees and there are times when people get out of line and you need to whip the team back into shape. And that's when you got to become a grizzly bear. And when you're a grizzly bear, it's not always popular. But you do it because it's the right thing. You do it because you know if you don't do it, you know, it will be the wrong thing because people will look at your standards and come up with the wrong conclusion. I spoke at a conference today and someone asked, what happens when you have a really high talent performer that doesn't play team ball?

55:21And I said, first of all, you got to have confidence in yourself as a leader that you can recruit somebody that can be a high talent performer that will play team ball. Then you got to have confidence in your company, that your company is good enough that, you know, you're going to be able to recruit that person to come in and be high talent and then play team ball. And then you got to know that if you don't exercise the privilege of leadership, if you don't step up, okay, there is a real cost of not leading. And that means that you're going to be setting a standard that's unacceptable to your people.

55:55You can't talk out of both sides of your mouth. You can't talk about the cultural values you have and then have a bad apple that doesn't live by it. And the excuse is, well, hey, he performs. He drives lots of revenue and profit. Or he or she can't, I can't take them out because of that. So what I think you have to do is you have to be a grizzly bear in a situation like that. And you got to pull that person aside and coach first and tell them, hey, look, you are the best salesperson we have. You're getting tremendous results. And you obviously know how to treat your customers well. well, but why aren't you treating the people that you work with on the team well?

56:34Why do they think you're such a jerk? And, you know, you got to really help that person understand how he's perceived on the team and then say it's unacceptable. And if you don't change, we're going to have a bigger problem in a couple of months. But you really work on it. Let's see where you're at. And then if they don't change, you know, after you hit them with that two by four, then, you know, you ultimately have to take them out. But that's being a grizzly bear. And, you know, it's easy to be a teddy bear. The teddy bear times are when everybody agrees. But, you know, you got to be tough minded enough to make the right decision, the tough decision when it's called for.

57:08I hear a lot of leaders talk about how that piece of leadership, the making the tough call is really what makes them feel isolated. So, David, during your time at Young Brands, when you had to be that grizzly bear and make the tough calls, how did you find how did you maintain relationship with the people close to you? Well, the people close to me, you know, stayed close to me because they were doing their job and they were doing things the right way. The people who weren't close to me were the people who weren't living our culture. And, you know, what I tried to do is bring them back on board so that they could be on the team.

57:45And, you know, I really believe very much in coaching first. And so that was just the way how I tried to run the railroad. But here's the key point. The key point is that I wouldn't want anybody else making that decision. I wouldn't want anybody else to have to step up and make the tough call. I mean, I wanted to be the leader. You know, I wanted to have the job that I had. And I viewed it as a privilege of leadership. And when you're a leader, you've got to exercise the privilege of leadership by making the easy decisions, the somewhat tougher decisions, and then the really hard decisions. And you can't shy away from them.

58:24And you obviously want to get your team input before you make any decision and make sure you do the right homework before you make any decision. David, you alluded to this in that discussion just now, but the idea of team players over individual performers. And throughout this conversation, that really comes through. Peter's emphasis on picking team players over individual talent. How do you think about that? I mean, would you pass over someone who is individually talented if they weren't a team player? Yes, I would not have a star performer if they weren't a team player. Because that person will bring the team down, ultimately.

59:04But it's the old magic of the end. And I'm sure Peter feels the same way. I want a star talent and a team player. And if you believe in yourself and you believe in your company, you can get both. Anytime I brought in a team player that couldn't do their job well, they didn't stay on the team that long. So you got to get somebody that's a team player and really does their job well enough to keep it. And yeah, that doesn't mean you necessarily have to be a star, but you got to be damn good to be on the team. My approach, Kula, was I wanted a team mentality. I wanted people, if they were on our team, I wanted them to feel like they were on the A team.

59:43The only way they could feel like they're on the A team is if you have high talent that works together and knows how to function as a team. And that's when, what does they say, the tide rises for all boats. I think about what you say a lot, David, that no one wants to be part of something mediocre. And that goes for the noble cause of the business and results-oriented businesses. But also, I mean, no one wants to be part of a mediocre team with people that they know don't bring all-star talent to work every day. Yeah, they're inextricably linked. You know, you can't go to work and be a part of something great if you're on a team that doesn't play ball together.

1:00:19David, this last concept will really speak to those emerging leaders that are listening to this podcast. And it's an interesting piece of advice that Peter offers in the conversation. He says that when you're thinking about your career, to pick your boss carefully. For Peter, this is the most important choice that you can make when you join an organization. How do you know what to look for in a boss? And can you pick your boss when you're early on in your career? I think when you first get out of school, it's harder to pick your own boss, you know, but you can certainly pick the company. You know, you can certainly get a good sense of the energy, the vibe, you know, the culture of the company in the interview process.

1:01:02You can get a feel as to whether you think you would fit there or it's the kind of place where it has a work environment where you want to be. And if you're really lucky, you know, when you get out of school and you're going for your first job, you know, you'll actually get to meet the person you're going to work for. And then you can make that same assessment. And if you can go to one, two, three, four or five different places, you know, I think then the pickier you can be. You know, if you're really just struggling in a tough economic environment just to find a job, it's hard to be real picky, you know, when you're starting out because you got to get experience.

1:01:40But once you get experience and you start working in the company and you decide that, hey, you're going to, you know, move to the, you know, to another function or to another part of that company. I think that's when you really want to make sure you're picking your boss and that somebody's going to really promote you and help you and grow you. And then if you're going to go outside, you know, you certainly don't leave until you really believe that you have a boss that's going to invest in you. You know, there are two reasons. I talk about this all the time. There's two reasons why people leave their company.

1:02:09One is they don't get along with their boss. And two is they don't feel appreciated for what they do. And many times those things are linked because the boss doesn't show you appreciation. The boss doesn't give you the recognition that you really are looking for. So, you know, so it's obvious that you as a leader wanting to grow, you want to pick the boss, pick the that's going to be a coach that's going to make you feel valued and it's going to invest in you. And I think as you move into your career and you start to get the second job, the third job, or the fourth job, I think it's absolutely critical to do exactly what Peter's talking about.

1:02:50Pick your boss. Do your very best to pick your boss. And you know what really makes you able to pick your boss? Be damn good at what you do. Crush it where you're at. Be someone who's so good at what they do that everybody wants, and then you're in demand. And then you can be a little picky. If you don't really do your job well, it's hard to be in much demand. We talk a lot among our team, David, about why we do the work we do. And it's to take down toxic work culture and make the world a better place by developing better leaders. And it's funny when we talk to people who listen to the podcast or who get our daily emails, when we talk about toxic work culture, it's almost like everybody has a story of a bad boss.

1:03:29Everyone has a story about a bad boss. And I mean, I do. I'm sure you might have a story about a bad boss. But, you know, the whole point of this work that we're doing is to make that happen less. And I think it's so important to think through the cost of working in an environment or for someone who isn't self-aware and doesn't appreciate you. Because it's not just that you go to work and have a bad day at work because you have a toxic work culture or a bad boss. It seeps into every aspect of your life. And so I love this piece of advice from Peter. And I am hopeful that this podcast is helping bad bosses become better bosses all across the world.

1:04:13Well, that's why we're doing it. We are trying to make the world a better place by helping to develop better leaders. And, you know, when you look at the statistics, I think over 80 % of people say that there's a toxic work environment out there. And that is so, so sad. And, you know, our job is to help leaders become better at what they do. Now, the reality is, is that, yeah, we're doing the best job we possibly can at that, or at least we're trying. But the people that tune in, you know, these are leaders who want to get better. You know, everybody that's listening right now is listening because they want to learn from leaders that they want to get better.

1:04:53But I think, you know, what they can do by getting better in their workplace is set the example that other people will want to follow. I think that's how we can really make the biggest difference. You know, if you lead the right way and you get great results, people want to do what you do. And, you know, that's what I'm hoping this podcast does is helps people lead the right way by learning from other people that really know what they're doing. You know, in this particular episode, I think we learned a few things is that, you know, there is a cost of leadership. You have to step up and lead when it's time.

1:05:27And if you don't lead, you're not exercising the privilege of leadership. And you got to make the, obviously the easy decisions are easier, the tougher decisions are tougher, but you have to make them all. The other thing is, is that, you know, if you get in a position where you're hiring people and building a team, you can't sacrifice your standards. You've got to, you've got to be demanding. You got to have two things happen. You got to have people who play on a team, and then they're very talented at what they do. One without the other is unacceptable. And you as a leader have got to create an A-team mentality that helps you get the talented people that can play on a team.

1:06:08And last but not least, as you think about your career, if you're going to school, go to the best school you can go, get the best grades you can. So maybe you can have the opportunity to pick your boss because everybody really wants you. OK. But then once you get into the workplace and you crush it where you're at, you know, absolutely do a great job so that you become in demand. So when you get that next job, you can pick your boss. Because when you can pick your boss, you can pick the person who's really going to invest in you and help you achieve the potential that you have within. And that's what we all want to do.

1:06:45Right. We all want to grow to our ultimate potential. And, you know, when you have a boss that invests in you, man, are you lucky? One of my great, great fortunes was that I never worked for anybody that didn't invest in me. It wasn't because I picked them. I just got lucky. OK. But if I could pick them, I would have picked every one of them because they taught me a lot and they believed in me and they helped me become the best that I could possibly be. And, you know, I'm sure I fell short many, many times. But man, I had them rooting for me and cheering me on all along the way. I love it, David.

1:07:22Well, thank you so much for a wonderful conversation with Peter Wharton Hood. And thank you for tuning in to another episode of How Leaders Lead with David Novak. Tune in next Thursday, and we will see you soon.