#283: Roy Williams, Former Men’s Basketball Head Coach, North Carolina – Get better every single day

25:00And so for me, it was about all the time setting a legitimate. And a lot of times I was reaching a little bit because I wanted us to push to be the best. And I will say this, every year, every year, some of it was not realistic, but my goal was win a national championship.

25:22David Novak:You know, I want to get more into how you lead and how you became one of the greatest coaches of all time. But first, let me take you way back, Roy. You know, tell us a story from your childhood that really impacted the kind of leader you became and you are today. Well, you know, I was happy. Okay, it wasn't very good, but I was happy. The reason I'd say it wasn't very good is because I saw what other people had. My mom and dad split when I was very young, and my dad was never home after I was 10. And it was very hard on my mom. And, you know, there were some things that she did. And she was a very bright, very intelligent, uneducated woman who quit school in the 10th grade and had two children.

26:05And she was working in a shoe, excuse me, a shirt factory, folding shirts and putting bags on to sell and every day and did that for 28 years. And so for me, my thing that I got by with is because she loved me. And that was, she was the greatest. And the other thing that I got by with is my teachers and coaches sort of took an extra interest in little Roy. And my high school coach was the first person to give me confidence, first person to make me feel like I could be something. And even my sophomore year said, he said, I've seen you haven't signed up for the SAT. I said, coach, nobody in my family.

26:47I mean, my dad had 13 brothers and sisters. My mom had 10. And so we had 8 million cousins. But I was the first in my family to ever go to college. But it was because my high school coach. And everybody has somebody out there that's giving you a little extra. And he was that person to me. And he was the one that told me I should go to North Carolina. Because after my ninth grade year, I decided I wanted to be a coach. And the reason is my high school basketball coach, as I said, gave me confidence and was the first person to actually say things to, I always played with older guys in the neighborhood.

27:26And they were taking U.S. history their junior year. And so at the end of my freshman year, my high school coach, and I played on the JV team, but he told this U.S. history class, he thought I could be the best point guard he'd ever coached. And oh my gosh, so that made me work even harder. And so for me, it was a wonderful life. I mean, I loved it and I knew it was very difficult on my mom. And later on, I knew it was even more difficult because I became a parent myself and those kind of things. But it was extremely difficult for her. She loved me and she did anything in the world for me and my sister.

28:03And that made the family idea of coaching a team, it was really special to me. And so for my entire life, the only thing I really cared about was my family and my basketball team. I got so I could play golf a little bit. I enjoyed being with my buddies and the trash talking and those kind of things. But my mother was the person that was my hero. And so for me, I never wanted to do something to let her down. And I used that because I had some kids that were in tough situations just like I was. but I was in charge of Roy. You know, they were in charge of themselves. They were in charge of what could be done.

28:46You can't say, oh, woe is me kind of thing. But because of my teachers and my high school coach, I was lucky, was and still am the luckiest person that ever lived.

28:59David Novak:Hello, friends. I hope you are loving this conversation with David and Coach Williams. As always, stay tuned to the very end of the episode where David and I will debrief the conversation that he's having with Roy. We'll give you some real practical takeaways that you can apply right away to your leadership and to your life. So be sure to stay tuned to the very end of the episode, and I will see you at the debrief. You became an assistant under Coach Dean Smith. You mentioned that a little bit earlier. Was there anything unique about that circumstance that affected you and your family as you took that job?

29:34Yeah, it was called a part-time assistant. And Coach Smith had a great line. He said, it's a full-time job, part-time pay. And so this is 1980. And I know to people now that sounds like 100 years ago. But my pay my entire first year was$2 ,700 for the year. So I sold calendars.

29:54David Novak:Wouldn't want to think about that. Well, the funny thing is she was the best now. As I came home from working Coach Smith's camp, I was a high school coach for five years. And I was invited down every year to work Coach Smith's basketball camp. And so the third week of camp, we every week on Thursday night, the night before camp's over, he would have a party for the coaches. After we put the kids to bed and everybody have food and drink. And he said, I want to talk to you a minute. And he got me to go over and sit down at a booth away from everybody else and told me he would like for me to consider coming back to Chapel Hill and being the part time assistant.

30:30And he spent all his time apologizing because he couldn't pay because we did things the right way. And I said, Coach, let me go talk to Wanda. And I went in to tell Wanda that Coach Smith had offered me the job. She said, let me get this straight. We have a child, a little boy. She was going back to work. We were going to have daycare for him. She was going to make$15 ,000. I was going to make$16 ,000. So she said, let me get this straight. So we have jobs that we're going to make$31 ,000. And you think you want to go to Chapel Hill for$2 ,700? and we have a one-year-old baby. I said, yep, that's about it.

31:11And she said, when do we leave? And so I had the complete support. And I did. I mean, I did so many.

31:18David Novak:What a partner that is. Oh, yeah. I mean, but I did. I sold calendars, drove copies. I did study hall. I'd sit in study hall, and, you know, I didn't know anything about what they were studying, but I made them keep their face in the book. You know, that was another way to make$10 a night kind of thing. So for me, initially it was hard because I was scared to death It's about feeding my family. But then we got the calendar business going. I became the, I don't mind saying this, I was the best egg-gum calendar salesman you've ever seen. What made you such a great calendar salesman? I sold encyclopedias, by the way.

31:50David Novak:But what did you learn from that experience? Well, first of all, it was emphasized by me more because I had to. If I didn't sell no calendars, I couldn't feed my family. But the other thing, and you learn this when you're selling encyclopedias, and this helped me later on. Who's going to make the decision? You know, in recruiting, you go in there. Is mom going to make a decision? Is dad going to make a decision? Is the high school coach got any input? Who's making a decision? In your business right now, that's extremely important. When you were selling encyclopedias, you've got to know who's going to make the decision.

32:24And so for me in the calendar business, I cut through so much tape every year because I got better at deciding who was going to make the decision. and having the motivation of liking to eat and feeding my family. That was part of it. And the other thing is I knew I had a great product. I just had to be able to get out there to the people that were huge North Carolina fans. But I did, and I tried to do it to the best of my ability, and it was a passion with me.

32:52David Novak:You know, as an assistant coach at North Carolina, you recruited Michael Jordan before anyone really knew who he was. You know, what did he do from your perspective that really allowed him to become the greatest basketball player of all time? What is it? Well, he had a tremendous desire. My three favorite athletes, you can't say who's your favorite son or who's your favorite player or favorite dog, but my three favorite athletes are Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, and Tyler Hansbro, because they did everything they could do to be the best they could be. Tyler Hansbro pulls up behind the Smith Center and gets out of his car, and he's got a gallon jug.

33:30And I said, what do you got in the jug? And he said, water. And I said, what are you doing? And our trainer told him, you need to drink a gallon of water every day before practice. So he was taking a dadgum gallon jug to class and turning it up between classes and drinking it. Michael Jordan worked harder than everybody. Tiger Woods had some things that people didn't like, but I admired him because he hit that six iron out of the bunker in the Canadian Open. and crossed the water at eight feet to make eagle. We all remember that shot. But they did everything. There was a young PGA guy that said, I'm going to follow Tiger.

34:07I'm going to do everything he does, everything for two weeks. And the second or third day, the guy that told me this said, he came and said, I'm out. Because he said that Tiger was on the green, and he was putting one-handed from three feet for an hour. Just over and over and over and over. Well, Michael Jordan, I got after his freshman year and I said, you've got to push yourself more. He said, Coach, I want to be the best player to ever play in North Carolina. And I said, well, you've got to work harder than you did in high school. And he said, well, I worked as hard as everybody else. And I said, oh, excuse me, I mistake.

34:47I thought I heard you say you wanted to be the greatest player to ever play in North Carolina. You have no chance, no chance, if you're just going to be satisfied at working as everybody else. And in business, you learn things as your assistant coach. And that season or that summer before school was started, Michael's freshman year, I'd said I'd like to have a more organized running program for us and push the guys to be in great shape when we start practice. because in those days, everybody didn't play basketball year-round. The elite ones did, but a lot of guys played other sports and stuff like that.

35:25And so Coach Smith taught me the lesson. He said, okay, you're in charge. You do it. And so we did a running program, and I tried to bury them for three days a week, for four weeks before practice started. And that's when Michael told me that sitting on the grass because one guy was over here throwing up, and one guy was over here, guys helping him into the locker room because I was trying to kill him. And so that was, we did it Monday, Wednesday, Friday. I can't tell you what day it was, but two days later when he came out on the track, Michael said, I want to talk to you at the end of this running.

35:58And I said, okay. And so, you know, everybody's laying on the grass, acting like they're going to die at the end. And, you know, and then two guys get up and leave, somebody else gets up and leaves. And all of a sudden it's just me and Michael. And he said, I remember what you said, and I'm never going to forget it. And he said, you'll never see anybody outwork me. And, you know, and I think he showed that for his entire life. And his freshman year, he was 6 '4 1⁄2". His sophomore year, he was 6 '6". His freshman year, he got faster. We used to, that's me and another assistant coach and our trainer timing them.

36:33But Coach Smith wanted a time in the mile, a vertical jump and a time in the 40-yard dash. And so we got a trainer and two coaches there, and they sprint across the line, and we hit our watch. When Michael did his 40, and I'm looking at it, and I said, guys, I may have missed it. What do you have? And one guy said, I got 4.39, and the other guy said, I got 4.38. And I said, I got 4.38. And I'm thinking, oh, my gosh, he's an inch and a half taller. He's bigger, stronger, and faster because his freshman year, he did that in four or five. So his sophomore year, he came back even stronger, bigger, faster.

37:10So I said, I said, Michael, I said, I messed up your time. I said, I'm going to need you to run it again. And he didn't say a word. And so we ran somebody and ran somebody. And then Michael was back up on the line. But as he walked back out to the starting point, he walked past me with that little cocky little grin and everything. He said, faster than you thought, huh? And he was, and he knew what we were. And so we timed him again. And I got 4.38 again.

37:38David Novak:Wow. And so everybody else. So he went from a fast guy at 4.5 something to 4.38. So he got bigger, stronger. And he had that attitude his freshman year before it even started. You'll never see anybody outwork me. And that's the way he lived at North Carolina for three years. He tried to. He would look you in the face and say, I'm going to dunk on you today. And he'd look at Tim and say, I'm going to dunk on you twice. I love it. And so that was, he was just unusual in that way. And every day he tried to become a better player. I understand that Coach Smith, you know, recommended you to Kansas when you were an assistant.

38:17How did that impact you? Well, you know, I'd been a high school coach for five years. And so I was a head coach of the high school team. And that was as important to me as it was to the guy coaching in the Final Four. And so that was a part of it. And I got a little confidence there. and then I'd been at North Carolina for 10 years. I'd coached our JV team for eight years. So for eight years, I had two practices every day. And if Coach Dean Smith had a two-hour practice that day, Roy Williams had a two-hour practice. If he had an hour of 15 minutes, then that's what Roy Williams did. And so to me, even from the time I left high school, I had continued coaching as a head coach, even though it was just the JV team.

39:00But Eddie Fogler, one time, Jeff Lebo, one of our elite players who's still an assistant in North Carolina, said to Coach Fogler, he said, Coach Williams is really upset. What's the matter? And Eddie said, they lost the JV game. And Jeff Lebo said, it's just a JV game. And Coach Fogler said, it's not to him. And so for me, even I felt comfortable with what I knew and how I would try to do things. But I was very lucky. I mean, if Coach Smith had not been a Kansas graduate, there's no way they would have hired him. But the respect that he had, the influence that he had with some of the people there, because there's no way in the world Roy Williams should have gotten that job.

39:43But it was the respect that Coach Smith had. And that made me even more motivated because I didn't want to let Coach Smith down. And every day of my life as a head coach, I wanted to do things that would have made Coach Smith proud. Even, you know, my last year as a head coach, 33 years, I still wanted to do something every day that would have made Coach Smith proud.

40:07David Novak:And you talk already a lot about just the importance of having high standards and beliefs in terms of where you can really go. And you're running these, you know, superpower programs. Do you have a story of where you had a talented player that you really had to hold him accountable because you didn't think he was performing? And how did you do that as a leader? Well, it's two things. I think kids will allow you to lead them, just like people in your store and in whatever you're doing. they will allow you to lead them if they trust you and if they believe in you. And I told all of them, you're never going to outwork me.

40:53I'm going to be here before you are. Every morning I'm going to be here after you leave every night. And also, I'm going to put more into it than you are. And also, I used to tell the fans this. I'd hold my hand up like that and I said, you see that little finger? I've got more passion in that little finger than all the North Carolina people in the world to win. And so I'd tell my team that and I'd say, I'm going to push you. You've got to be willing. But if you're willing to come along, then we're going to have a chance. And for me, every day was a contest. Every day was a challenge. Every day was a game.

41:33It's just nobody was keeping score.

41:39David Novak:I really enjoyed your Hall of Fame speech. You apologized in that speech to your 96, 97 Jayhawks team for not leading them to a national championship. That's a remarkable level of vulnerability and accountability. Tell us about what that was inside of you as a leader that made you want to do that. You know, it's funny, and I'm a weird dude, so you've got to understand that part of it. But when you mention that, it almost makes me choke up because I really did feel like that that team was good enough to go to a Final Four. When you get to the Final Four, you know, you've got to have the ball bounce your way and this kind of thing.

42:22You're good enough to get there. Anybody can win it. But we were so good. We got Jared Hess hurt, and he played the whole year with broken wrists and couldn't really play in the NCAA tournament at all. He tried, but he just couldn't do it. But, I mean, it was a tremendous moment for me to be inducted into the Hall of Fame. It was sad because my mother was not there. She had already passed. So it was really sad that I didn't have her there. And so when I spoke, I said at one time I had a mom and a dad and a sister, and now I have none of those. but I know that mom upstairs is really proud of me.

43:00But that team was perfect. And I really felt like that I had let them down and it was important for me. And my high school coach told me, he said, why did you bring that up? It's got to be supposed to be your night. It's supposed to be, you know, seashells and balloons and everybody happy. And I said, because I love that team. And one of those guys is Jock Vaughn, who's an assistant coach at Kansas right now. Another one was Jared Haas, who coached with me at Kansas and North Carolina and then went to become the head coach at Stanford. But the vulnerability never bothered me because this is Roy and you're my player.

43:45This is our team. And everything else is different. We're in this together. And I did. One of the great friends who was a really, really successful NBA coach said, how can you even think about that when you're up there at the Hall of Fame? I said, I felt like I'd let those guys down. And it was maybe my last chance to apologize because I had five of those guys in the crowd. But it was a vulnerable time, but that's okay as long as you're not trying to be, as long as you're not phony. And I've been accused of a lot of things.

44:23David Novak:There's nothing phony about you for sure. And, you know, you had a great run in Kansas with some disappointment, but any way you look at it, a great run. Didn't you go back to your home in North Carolina? You know, when you make a career change or a career move like that, you know, it's a time really to step back, maybe reflect. You know, did you step back and reflect on your performance and what you wanted to do different in this new situation? Even though it was familiar, it was still new, a different time. You know, how did you think about the restart or the reset, or did you think about it that way?

45:04A little bit, but not a lot, you know, because every day it was going to be the same goal. Be the best we can be today and be better tomorrow. Be better the next day. Be better the next day. It was hard because I loved Kansas so much. My chancellor in North Carolina when I took the job really helped. He says, you're not immoral if you love two institutions. Because there's no doubt in my mind it's something else that's hard for me to even talk about. When I told my team at Kansas that I was leaving, when I walked out of that room, I felt dirty. And if I had known I was going to have that feeling, I don't know that I could have done it.

45:45But my situation in Kansas had changed dramatically. My AD, Bob Frederick, that had hired me, it was no longer the AD. The chancellor was no longer the chancellor. And the job had just gotten much harder. And the AD and I just didn't get along. He didn't get along with a lot of people. But so for me, it was the right thing to do. My sister was a little sick. My dad was real sick. And we were not close. But I still, my family was in North Carolina. And so I felt like it was the right thing to do. And yet, I don't mind telling you, I watched every KU game and died with them if they lost and celebrated with them if we won.

46:23But to go back there and to lose myself into my job as a coach of the North Carolina Tar Heels every day was what I wanted to do. And over time, it's healed a lot of wounds. I'd upset some people at Kansas. It's just like three years prior to that, I'd upset some people at North Carolina by not going back the first time they asked me. But, you know, I think I try to do the right thing. I try to do what Coach Smith would be proud of. I try to do things that my mom would be proud of. And, you know, my mom one time, I told her what I was doing and we were going to the pool hall. I mean, I'm 16 years old and it's a bad place and people are drinking and I'm not a drinker at all.

47:08and never smoked a cigarette, marijuana, anything in my entire life. Now, I'll gamble on a golf course with the best. I got some, I played craps at the craps table. But my mom, one time, she said, why are you going there? I said, mom, it's just a place we gather and we shoot pool and then we leave and go to Burger King, get something, come home. She says, well, I just don't know. She said, you just make sure you do the right thing. And this was a lady who quit school in the 10th grade. that was very bright, very intelligent, but uneducated woman. And she looked at me and she said, you just do the right thing.

47:46And I said, mom, how will I know it's the right thing? She said, you'll know. And that guided me for years. And again, you know, it's, it's, I really do believe that I'm the luckiest person that ever lived. And it's a great deal of it's because of my mom.

48:03David Novak:You've spent your entire career building winning teams. I mean, if anybody should be an expert on how to build winning teams, you would be it. You know, what would you be the top three or four things you think that are essential to building a great team? Every day before practice, I would make out the practice plan. We're going to work on offensive rebound for seven minutes, out of bounds underneath for 11 minutes, do this for 12 minutes, do this for eight minutes. I mean, Eric Church, one of our great country singers, came to watch practice one day and I gave him a copy of the practice plan. and it's seven minute period, 11 minute, eight minutes, 10.

48:40He said, gosh, I'm going to start doing that. My band will get things because I never varied from my high school coach, who I loved, loved and still do. It's a one more time, one more time, one more time to get to 31. And so I never said one more time. But if I wasn't pleased with where we were on the offensive rebound, I'd write a note on the practice plan more time tomorrow or less time tomorrow because we cut it short because we were doing so well. But on the top of the practice plan every day, I would put a thought for the day. And I copied it from Coach Smith. Coach John Wooden sent me a thousand of his thoughts.

49:19But the one that we started every season with on the first day was, it's amazing how much can be accomplished when no one cares who gets the credit. And you think in your job, in your people, that some of them have this job to do, some of them have this job to do, some of them have something different. That's the way it is in basketball. We have one guy that I want to get the shot. We have one guy that I want to pass. But we have another guy that I want to set the screen to get the guy open. So, you know, it's amazing how much can be accomplished when no one cares who gets the credit. Regardless of how important you think your job is, do it to the best of your ability.

49:54Because that guy coming across the lane to set that screen to get Tyler Hensrow open, he better set a good screen. So regardless of how important you think your job is, do it to the best of your ability. Another one that I talked about earlier was always going to be there is persistence prevails when all else fails. We're going to do that every single day. We're going to be persistent about what we think is important. Another one that Marvin Williams, one of our great players that only played at North Carolina one year, was the second pick in the NBA draft, but was the first one and done to get his college education.

50:27He came back nine summers to get his degree. And Marvin loved this one. You can measure the speed of a thoroughbred with a watch, but it takes a race to measure the heart. And, you know, because we're trying to build something every single day. We're trying, don't step across that line if you didn't get better. And so the little thought for the day would be something. If I were to be in job of an office and had 12 guys, girls, 28, we would have a meeting, say, okay, what are we trying to accomplish today? Let's do this. and I literally have thousands of those things and I've, over the past five years since I've been retired, I've shared a lot of them with some of my former players who are in coaching now.

51:09But again, it's just something that for me was, I really truly believed in every day is having a thought for something that was more important than basketball. This is how it applies to basketball.

51:21David Novak:Now, how do you, you know, what's interesting to me is, you know, you got to build a culture with every team, okay? How did you get, Did you have a trick or something that you did to really get the players to open up with each other so that you really could hear each other's story and have that shared experience that would create a bond? Yeah, I think it's important for you to know that guy that you're working right beside. He's got to be able to do the best job for you to be successful. So why don't you know everything you can about it? And we talked to each player. We got them to talk to each other.

51:57And I think that for us, my job was pretty easy to figure out, try to win a national championship and get my guys to the NBA. I mean, that's what it was all about, whether I like people to say, well, it was my job to get my guys to get their degree. Well, in today's college game, the last 30, 40 years, it's just been get to the NBA because they watch the TV program on cribs or cars where they show what NBA players got 12 cars in his garage underneath his house. Well, that's what you're faced with at our level of basketball. And so for us, every day you've got to do the best you can to make yourself better.

52:37But for me, I had to win or I was going to be fired. And I had to help our guys reach their own individual dreams or goals or it wasn't going to be successful either. And so I made up a lot of thoughts. I mean, one that was really not very good, but I still loved it. It said that the teams that win, their players get the awards and rewards. You know, that's not really very good. But I said, guys, if we win, you've got a better chance to reach your dreams. And another one that I do think is good, and I'll tell you a funny story about it, is I said, you know, Rome was not built in a day, but it was worked on every day.

53:14And I used that in my college coaching career in Phoenix a few years ago, not 17 when we won it, but even after I retired, bus transportation to take the fans to the arena and the coaches and everything else. Bus pulls down the road. Wanda and I are walking on the street, and I said, look at that. And on the side of the bus, it said Rome was not built in a day, but it was worked on every day. So I think little things like that were important. And I didn't have very many guys transfer. Now everybody transfers. It's a drop of the hat. But we made it about them and about us together, but tried to never forget their own individual dreams and goals.

53:57David Novak:And one of the things about Carolina basketball is Carolina and Duke, one of the greatest rivalries of all time. You know, what was it about that Carolina-Duke rivalry that taught you the biggest leadership lesson? Well, it was unusual. And people can say, well, Ohio State-Michigan football. but truly in my mind, the greatest sports rivalry in college athletics is Duke, North Carolina, basketball. And I base a lot of it on before they play the first game on Saturday, that week ESPN plays 15 of the games in the past. And every time they put up on there after 4 ,000 games, Duke has scored two points less than North Carolina.

54:41I mean, it's there. We're eight to 10 miles apart. I've never gotten a car in time, did or measured it, but it's somewhere 8 to 10 miles. When a guy comes and visits North Carolina, he flies into Raleigh-Durham Airport. When he comes in to visit Duke, he flies into Raleigh-Durham Airport. And in the old days, players used to play pickup together. They would come to Chapel Hill the most because Chapel Hill was just college town, whereas Durham was a city and Duke University was over there. And I think the Duke coaches got him to stop coming over for the pickup games. But Vic Bubas, Mike Krzyzewski put Duke at such a high level.

55:23Well, Dean Smith did it, Frank McGuire, and then Coach Smith did it in North Carolina. So a lot of the times you're playing and both teams are in the top two, top five, top 10 in the country, it's going to get the most attention. And so I think with the proximity of the schools, the fact that a lot of guys visited both schools before they chose to go to the other one, I think that that had a lot to do with it. But on game night, Duke and North Carolina is a different beast. I'm telling you, it's not, I don't care what you say about, you know, Indiana, Ohio State, or on the night that Duke and North Carolina plays, you know who knows?

56:05everybody. And so it's in with Mike and myself, I mean, we had a great relationship. It was built on respect. You know, he doesn't play golf. I do play golf. We've, he's got his family and his job. I got my family and my job. We didn't socialize a lot, but there was a tremendous amount of respect and, and I generally like him. And, and I think he, I think that coach Smith set the bar and Mike came in and tried to get there. And then Mike set the bar and I came in and tried to get there. And it's okay to have that kind of confrontation twice a year and enjoy the heck out of it and realize that at the end of the night, everybody knows who wins that game.

56:48And I believe everybody knows. Everybody knows, boy.

56:52David Novak:All right. It's been so much fun. And I want to ask some more with my lightning round of questions. So you ready for this? Yep. The three words that best describe you. Hard work and love. Hard work is the name of my book. And then the other thing is that if I love you, I love you. It's not any fake thing. If you could be one person for a day beside yourself, who would it be? Myself is the best because he's the luckiest guy that ever lived, was Roy Williams. I would like to, you know, Mickey Mantle was a hero of mine growing up. What's your biggest pet peeve? People not caring enough. Who would play you in a movie?

57:29Congratulations. I've never had that question asked. Oh, I loved Cool Hand Luke with the Paul Newman. There you go.

57:38David Novak:Who's in your dream golf foursome, dead or alive? You know, that's a question I've been asked a lot. The first time I was asked, I gave this answer, and every time since. You know, you think I'm going to say Michael Jordan, Beyonce, and Arnold Palmer or something like that, But it would be three of my buddies because I've never enjoyed things as much as I have one of my buddies I played against when he was 13 years old playing Babe Ruth baseball. My high school coach until the last six or seven years was in my favorite foursome. And so it would be my buddies because that's the place. They give me more crap than anybody can expect, you know, because they see this old famous coach.

58:24And, you know, the people in North Carolina, Kansas, when I was coaching, both places were really nice. And my buddies don't give me any slack whatsoever. So it would be it would be three of my buddies.

58:36David Novak:What's the deal you have with your family every year on your birthday? Oh, it's an easy deal. is my mother was a great cook and I loved fried chicken biscuits and gravy. And so started this probably 15 years ago once we started having grandchildren that on my birthday, I don't want any presents. I don't want anybody to go spend any money. Let's just get together. And either my wife Wanda or Katie, my son's wife, will fix biscuits and gravy. And you don't have to get any presents or anything, but let's all be together. and that's the greatest birthday present I can ever have. What's the one thing you do just for you?

59:15I'm stupid enough to still think that I can be a good golfer.

59:19David Novak:If I turned on the radio in your car, what would I hear? It's easy. You would hear country music or soul music, Marvin Gaye. And this is just humorous, I think. Maybe it's not appropriate, but Marvin Gaye before, I guess probably maybe most two years, we were pretty successful. I would listen to Marvin Gaye, and the song I'd listen to the most is, Let's Get It On. Marvin wasn't talking about the same thing I was talking about, but it was that idea of, boys, let's get it on tonight. I love it. What's something about you that few people would know? I'm the pickiest eater they've ever seen. What's one of your daily rituals, something that you never miss?

59:59I think my routine every day is to try to do something that will help me be successful at the end. I still try to work out, walk, don't sprint anymore. But I cannot go a day that I don't do something physically to help my body.

1:00:18David Novak:Great. We're out of the lightning round. I appreciate that. Just a couple more questions. I'll let you go, Coach. You know, for almost 50 years, you were coach. And when you stepped away from the game, who were you without the whistle? I don't know yet. It's been five years. You know, I miss it every single day, every single day. But what I miss is the relationships. I miss the locker room. I miss the bus rides. I miss preparing. I miss the relationships. As I told you, to go see Kobe White, who only played one year for me, and that was seven years ago, but to go see him play is something that I love.

1:00:58But for me, it's a different game now by name, image, and likeness. and the transfer portal, because I used to really try to make it a personal thing about, I'm going to be here every day for the rest of your life. You're only going to play for me for four years or three or two or one, but I'm going to be here for the rest of your life. And that part of it in college basketball has changed dramatically right now.

1:01:25David Novak:Roy, you and Wanda, you've been married for a long time, and you have two children, Kimberly and Scott, and you're also the grandfather to their children. And, you know, how do you transfer your leadership to home base, to home? You know, to them, I'm just pop. You know, they, it's funny, especially the grandkids, because I went through it with Scott and Kimmy, too. When Scott and Kimmy, when we first got to Kansas and people are coming up to me and asking for their autograph, and Scott and Kimmy are looking around like, what is the matter with these people? You know, so why do they want your autograph kind of thing?

1:02:03And it's a little bit when the grandkids first see that, they're looking around like, what is this going on? But as I said, you know, for my birthday, the only present I want is all of us to be together. And I'm still old Roy. And that's never going to change. And to them, I'm still Pop. And at Christmas, I get a new cover for my phone every year with all the grandchildren's pictures on there. And if you told me, pop over there's a box for you. It's got$10 million. You only open that first. I won't say, where's my phone cover? Because that's what I treasure. It's in my pocket all the time.

1:02:42David Novak:You know, you're a Hall of Famer, national champion several times. You know, I'm curious, what's your unfinished business now? How do you define it? One is being stupid, but I still think I've only shot my age one time on a golf course. So I've gotten 75. It's getting a lot easier than I know because I'm getting older. But for me, there's nothing I love more than being with my buddies on the golf course or shooting craps, for example. There's nothing I like more than being with my grandchildren. I mean, I was asked to do something at the Final Four this year, and I'm not going because it's Easter weekend.

1:03:23And two times in my life, I've hit Easter eggs for my grandchildren. at the site of the Final Four when we were playing. But I'm not going to miss hiding Easter eggs. And, you know, they're 16 and 14 now. They're getting a little past it with the 8-year-old and the 7-year-old. It's a new deal for them. And so that, to me, I'm not even going to the Final Four this year because it's Easter weekend because Roy Williams is going to hide Easter eggs for his grandchildren.

1:03:51David Novak:Awesome. And last question, what's one piece of advice you'd give to anyone who wants to be a better leader? You know, you've got to, this is really easy for me to say, you've got to understand their situation. What are they in it for? Are they just trying to make a living? Are they trying to keep going and get better and better? Because I'm only as good as my assistants. I'm only as good as my players. And every day I've got to make sure that they understand and they feel that what they're doing is extremely important. We don't do anything just to check off a box. Everything you're doing is going to make our basketball program better.

1:04:36Everything you're doing is going to make our players better. And at the end, you know, again, the teams that win, the players get the awards and rewards, but so do the coaches. and it's our lives. And I've told them this, when I'd run my camp, every little boy in that camp, I mean, in Kansas one year, we had 1 ,100 kids one week and 1 ,100 kids the next week. And I told the staff every day that somebody's son, somebody's nephew, somebody's grandson, it's up to you to make sure that that kid has a great camp experience. And I walked into the locker, not locker room, but the pro shop at Augusta National.

1:05:18A long time ago, went with the dean of the business school from University of Kansas. And a guy behind the desk says, Coach Williams, man, it's been a long time. I had no clue who he was. And I looked at him and I said, I apologize. I'm not placing you. He said, I came to Kansas. Excuse me. I came to North Carolina basketball camp two years. And I was in your gym both years. and I told my parents that's the best summer experience I ever had and my brother and I had to go to camp every we had to go to camp mom and dad were trying to get rid of us for a couple weeks and he said to this day it's still the greatest camp experience I ever had so when I talked to those coaches I say you got to understand it's somebody's son somebody's grandson but that guy could grow up to be working in the pro shop at Augusta National because at first I thought God, I hope you had a great experience because I didn't want him to throw me out because he hated camp or something like that.

1:06:19And so I tell him it's somebody's son, somebody's nephew, somebody's grandson. It could be the guy who ends up working in the pro shop, Augusta National, or it could be the guy that you go up the steps to get on the plane and you start to turn right. And you hear somebody say, Coach Williams. And you turn and you look. And I said, Kai Ballard. He said, that is amazing. how do you remember me? And I had him in high school as a ninth grade and I had him for physical education, but you never can tell. I wanted to make sure that Kai's still like me. I didn't want him to get up in that airplane and start doing this.

1:06:58He said, you realize how much you ran me my freshman year? And I said, Kai, I was inexperienced at that time. Don't hold it against me tonight. But when you deal with that young man, he's going to grow up and you never can tell when it might happen that he has a reflection and you want it to be a great one.

1:07:18David Novak:Yeah, that's great. And Coach, I have to tell you, you're an amazing person, amazing man. And if anybody deserves an award and a reward, it's you. And I want to thank you so much for taking the time being on this show. Really appreciate you. Well, I tell you what, I was in Louisville my first year after I retired, I went to the game at Louisville. And those people were so nice to me. And the Yum Yum, I think it's Yum Yum Center. Yeah, the KFC Yum Center. Yeah. The line for my autograph was 30 minutes during pregame warmup and everything. And they were so gracious to me. And I always thought that was one of the neatest buildings I ever coached in.

1:08:03and I like chicken, so I'm right down your alley, boy.

1:08:07David Novak:You're right about that.

1:08:14David Novak:David, Roy Williams has got me fired up about March Madness. I can't believe how emotional Roy is. I mean, when you were talking about that Jayhawks team, he almost got a little choked up there. Oh, yeah, he loved his team. He loved his players. And I think that's why they go all out for him. And, you know, I said, you know, you cry a lot, you know. And he says, yeah, I think it's okay as long as it's authentic. And he is a very authentic guy. You can just see that he is so genuine in his belief and care for his teams and others. And I love that. You know, people talk about the importance of being vulnerable as a leader.

1:08:53David Novak:Well, you know, he talked about how he lost that big game and last second shot. He couldn't even talk to his team. He had Michael Jordan talk to his team because he just didn't know what to say. But I think having that kind of vulnerability to say that's how you really felt, that makes you kind of like the guy. Not just kind of like him. It makes you love the guy, believe in the guy, and root for him. And I'm sure anybody that was touched by Roy Williams feels that way. Absolutely. Well, David, I can't wait to debrief some of the concepts that you and Roy talked about so that our listeners have some real tangible takeaways that they can apply to their life and to their leadership.

1:09:35David Novak:Hey, by the way, Kula, it's really great that we're talking about coaching because that's just what I did with you. You know, we went through our three by five card, you know, who you are today, how you can be more effective. And, you know, I got some good tips from you as well. But that coaching process, the interaction between the player and the coach. You know, I think when you do it, it's so valuable because both people really benefit. And, you know, I think that's one thing that I see in all great leaders and all great coaches is they're trying to find, you know, more knowledge about their players, about the people on their team so that they can help them.

1:10:16David Novak:And at the same time, they're looking for people to give them feedback too so that they can become even better leaders. David, the first topic that I want to get your take on here is this idea of continuous improvement. And of course, it's something that leaders talk about all the time. Roy in the episode talked about how he told his players not to step off the court until they've done something to make themselves better. So as a leader who is trying to integrate this idea of continuous improvement into your culture, how do you do that in a way that doesn't feel like a grind for the people that work for you?

1:10:50David Novak:Well, I think people want to win. And basically, you talk about winning. Talk about the importance of doing the little things well, so that you add up having big results. You know, it's sort of like compounding interest. You know, if you could improve yourself 1 % or your business 1 % a day, man, you keep doing that and you wake up and you go, wow, look what we've done. Look what we've accomplished. So the other thing you talk about is the importance of continuous improvement. That if you're standing still, competition is not. They're going to go forward. So you've got to continually up your game.

1:11:24David Novak:And then just look at all the great leaders and see what they've done. I mean, Roy talked about a couple of leaders that he just really admired, Michael Jordan and Tiger. And that's all that they were about was just getting better and better and better every single day. And I think that is so important when you think about what's going to drive performance. Not only performance, peak performance. he talked about a lot I think the phrase was you know we're driven by dreams not pushed by our problems and I thought about that when you said you know talk about winning all the time he talked about their dream of being the national champion and being the last team standing during the March Madness tournament all the time and practice from the very beginning of the season all the way through to the end and so being driven by that dream and desire to win is something that will keep people motivated so that they don't feel like they're just grinding it out without ever getting to the mountaintop.

1:12:20David Novak:I've said this so many times, it probably drives people crazy, but, you know, people do not wake up every day wanting to be a part of something mediocre. They wake up wanting every day, wanting to be a part of something great. And that's what all the great coaches do. You know, I had the opportunity to interview John Wooden, the great late John Wooden. And, you know, he talked about how important it was to make everybody feel like they were part of the team and that everybody was valuable. And that the only way you could get to the to cut down those nets in the end was that everybody played the role that they need to play.

1:12:56David Novak:And, you know, and he talked about how Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, he was like the engine. And, you know, some other player was sort of like a nut on the wheel. But man, if you didn't have it going, that car was not going to run. And that kind of focus, that kind of intention really gets people paying attention to what really matters. Another thing I thought was so interesting was when Roy talked about his practice structure. It was very simple, but it was very clear and almost surgical in the way that he went about structuring his practices. And in fact, your friend Eric Church saw this practice structure and he stole it for his band because he liked it so much.

1:13:41David Novak:David, how do you think about structuring practices and how does that concept translate? Well, I think the reason why Eric Church liked what Roy Williams was doing is because the minute he walked out on the floor, he had a plan and they executed. Okay. They're going to run wind spreads for 10 minutes. They're going to shoot free throws for 20 minutes. They were going to do X for 10 minutes. And then, you know, you go through a three-hour practice and you've covered the gamut of the things that you have to really be good at to prepare for the team that you've got coming up. And, you know, Eric says, man, we should, I do rehearsals all the time.

1:14:18David Novak:Why don't we think that, take that same kind of approach to the band? And I think that's, you need to take that same kind of approach to business as well. You know, because the fact of the matter is time is precious and the last thing you want to do is waste it. And when Roy Williams had a practice, they maximized the time so that people could get the most out of it. In the meetings that I see in the corporate world, so much time is wasted. People let people go through 45-page decks when they could be five pages. And you get to the point where you could actually really, really, you know, get real good discussion on something versus just have a one-way conversation.

1:15:05David Novak:To me, I looked at everything that we did as an opportunity to maximize productivity. You know, if I had a dinner with the board, I just didn't have everybody sit at the table and eat and, you know, talk to each other and not walk away with something. You know, I had two of our top people come in, talk about the, give a little overview of what they're working on. Then we asked questions and talked about the challenges of that business for a couple hours. And man, we got so much out of it. It's that kind of thinking that leads to not wasting time and making the most of every opportunity. And, you know, I think leaders need to think of the time they have is the most precious thing that they can spend and, you know, make the most out of it.

1:15:54David Novak:Don't waste time. And that's what great preparation, great practices does. It reminds me one time I had the privilege of going to a Seahawks walkthrough. So it's the day before the game. They walked through every single play in the playbook. And Coach Carroll didn't really say anything. He would just clap to start the play and double clap to end the play. And that signal to the players to start the next play. And it was the most efficient thing I think I've ever witnessed in terms of a team because there's like, you know, 80 players and everybody knew exactly where they were supposed to be at what time.

1:16:30David Novak:And no one wasted even a second going through that playbook. So I also think what it communicates as a leader to the people that you're coaching is that you really care about their performance too, because you've actually thought through how to utilize the time you have with them in the most efficient and effective way so that they perform at their absolute best. Super point, Kula. Could not agree more. Well, speaking of success, David, I was a little surprised to hear that Roy said he found it easier to build up a struggling program than to sustain a successful one. What's your take on that? I mean, which situation would you rather lead in?

1:17:06David Novak:Oh, I always wanted the turnaround. You know, give me the turnaround situation. Give me the bad situation. Why is that easier? Oh, because it's all you have is upside, okay? But once you have a really great program and your job is to sustain it, man, there's a lot, a lot of pressure on you because, you know, there's not the apparent opportunity that you have in a bad situation. But the reality is, is that leaders have to define the unfinished business in every situation and get the team rallied around it to really perform. But, you know, I think what's that phrase? Nobody wants to follow John Wooden since we're on basketball.

1:17:52David Novak:That's because he won so many national championships. Why would you want to take over that program? Nobody will ever be able to walk in the shoes of the great John Wooden. And by the way, it took them years. I don't know if they ever have really developed the kind of program that they had since John Wooden was leading it. Because you know what? John Wooden was a pretty tough act to follow. So, David, you always preferred the turnaround situation. Yeah, until I had to sustain excellence. You know, I'd like to start out with a turnaround. Like in my particular situation, I was really lucky. I went into KFC and it was a turnaround situation.

1:18:31David Novak:and we turned it around. Same thing at Pizza Hut. Then I got a chance to run Yum Brands. Nobody thought we were going to do well. We were a spinoff from PepsiCo, the black sheep of PepsiCo and a drag on PepsiCo's earnings. And we were able to build that business. And after six or seven years, we really had a track record. Then we kept it going. And it was the sustained excellence that really made our company an outstanding company. And you take a lot of pride in that as well. But for me, it was a lot of fun to look back and say, man, remember when people thought of us this way and now look at what we are.

1:19:08David Novak:And now that we are what we are, man, we got to keep it going because you know what? Winning is the only option. I love it, David. Well, on winning, let's wrap this episode by you telling me who you think is going to take it all this March. I think it's probably Duke, which pains me to say. I was about to say, wow, you're publicly saying that. Yeah, well, I'm not a big Duke fan, but I know a lot of Duke people who are great people, and I'll be happy for them. But I'll never be rooting for Duke because I still remember when Christian Laettner, you know, hit that shot at the last second to beat Kentucky, and I was a big Kentucky fan.

1:19:49David Novak:And I've hated Duke ever since. And, you know, hey, what can I say? What can you say? Well, you and Coach Williams have that in common. I always respected Coach K and I respect Duke very much because they have sustained excellence, just like North Carolina has had sustained excellence and Kansas has had sustained excellence. And, you know, it's kind of fun when you're like a Pat Kelsey who took over Louisville, which had sustained excellence and needed to be turned around. and now he's getting the joy of turning that program around, bringing it back. That's the kind of situation I always liked.

1:20:32David Novak:I always liked the fact that the raw talent was always there. The brand was always there. But somehow it'd been mismanaged if you have a chance to bring it back. And then it's really hard, but it's a lot of fun to driving sustained excellence as well. And that's what Roy Williams has done. You know, Roy Williams went back to North Carolina, by the way, when they hadn't been in the NCAA tournament for a couple of years. And, you know, he brought it back. And that's really exciting to do. And it's exciting to have a guy like Roy Williams on our show, because if there's anybody that knows how to do it, he does.

1:21:13David Novak:He absolutely does. So let's just go back and summarize what we've talked about here. You know, continuous improvement is the name of the game. You don't want to waste people's time with your rehearsals, your practice, your meetings, or anything that you do. Make the most of all the time you have. It's your most precious asset when it comes to building your team and getting great results. And hey, it's okay to, you know, wear your emotions on your sleeve. You know, no problem. Just be authentic when you do it. And people will love you for being open and caring. And then, you know what? Have fun, you know, turning around things and driving the performance with great teams and keeping it going because that's what the business is all about.

1:21:59And defining the unfinished business

1:22:01David Novak:is what you've got to be all about as a leader. I love it, David. Thank you so much for tuning in to another episode of How Leaders Lead. Catch us next Thursday and we will see you soon.

1:22:21David Novak:Tim and I, we do these podcasts all the time. This is one of his most prized possessions, Coach. This Kansas Jayhawk, and your autograph's right there. How does that make you feel when you see that? It's the neatest feeling you can possibly have. When you have a kid, and I'll say he's to have a basketball or have a picture, and I've had so many people come up and say, coach, you were on our refrigerator for five years because in camp I would take a picture with every kid and they used me as the standard because the kid kept growing and I didn't. But every time they show me a picture of me somewhere with them or every time I see somebody that's got a Kansas or North Carolina basketball with my signature, the first thing I think of is how lucky you were.

1:23:12You coached at North Carolina and you coached at Kansas and people have a love affair with both of those places.

1:23:19David Novak:And they have a love affair with you too, coach.