#288: James “JC” Curleigh, CEO, Pelican Products – How to reframe what you sell

25:50But what other folks may not see is, you know, I did a dual major in marketing and finance. When I went back to do executive education, I did strategic financial management and planning. And so really trying to understand the causal professional link between the creative mindset actions and with actionable intent on product and how that flows through to the context of your financial expectations, results, and trajectory are critical. and you've seen it go really, really wrong when the creatives are so creative that it's not in service to the business or the business, the financials demand too much, you know, growth out of non-creativity.

26:34Getting that balance right of creative and commercial, I think is critical. And if as a leader, you can balance that mindset, then you earn the right to be in the role of a CEO, I think to balance those two. Hi friends. I hope you're enjoying this conversation so far. As always, stay tuned to the very end of the episode. David and I will be debriefing some of the concepts that he speaks about in this conversation to give you something really practical you can use right away in your life and in your leadership. Stay tuned to the debrief, and I will see you in a bit. Earlier, you talked about the importance of conditions.

27:09And you say you can't guarantee success, but you can guarantee better conditions for success. What does that mean practically? Okay, let's go back to a year ago, David, when everyone comes into a new year and says, oh, that's going to be a great new year, 2025. All of a sudden, there's a little change in the administration. We heard things like Doge. We heard things like tariffs. We heard all these dynamics unfolded last year. And a lot of them were uncontrollables. But at the same time, as a leader and as a team, I often would ask, you know, who here can guarantee success in the future? And no one puts their hand up.

27:48And I said, but as leaders, we should be able to guarantee we can set better conditions for success. And those are having a clear vision and strategy. It's having the right leaders in place for the mode that you're in. I think it's prioritizing and pacing and setting those conditions for success. And if they happen to come a little sooner, you're ready for it. If it takes a little longer, you have to be patient. But it's not because your state of readiness isn't there. It's because the market dynamics or the conditions aren't there. So setting the conditions for success, I think, is critical. And I often use a lot of sports analogies.

28:23And, you know, if you think about a team, not every team is going to win the Super Bowl, but typically those that have set the best conditions for success over time with a game plan, the right team in place, the right leadership on and off the field, a little bit of luck here and there. But it's amazing how luck favors those who are well positioned and have set conditions for success. I've heard you also talk about the difference between invested synergy and inspired synergy. Explain. Well, actually, it's a little twist on that. So it's one of the things I call inverted synergy. So inverted synergy, and I've seen it happen in places.

29:06I think I came up with a term. Good point. Sometimes I can't read my own writing. No, no, no. I might take that invested synergy. That's my third eye. I can go invested, inverted, and inspired. But it happened to me when I joined Levi's. And Levi's Strauss and Company in 2012, it was going through a relatively flattish time. It wasn't losing, but it wasn't leading. It had taken its leadership for granted. And I got there and I recognized, like, you know, this is Levi's. This is a company that invented the blue jeans synonymous with some of the, you know, moments over time from gold miners to cowboys to, you know, cool people in Hollywood and rock and roll wear and Levi's.

29:51And I get to Levi's in 2012 and I'm like, I don't understand what's happening here to this iconic brand that it's still a leader in jeans, but it doesn't feel like it's leading. And I came up with this concept of it had inverted synergy where it was upside down, where the whole of Levi's was less than the sum of its parts. And so that vision of, and it's a bit of a rally cry. I say, guys, we have everything we need. We just have to actually look at each of these dimensions and make it matter more. And so going from this notion of inverted synergy where the whole is less than the sum of its parts, how do you set the conditions for success to get inspired synergy where the whole of Levi's or of any brand is greater than the sum of its parts?

30:38And if you think about the brands we know and love, that often they reach that status of inspired synergy where the whole of the brand is greater than the sum of all of its parts. Yeah, and you said at the top how Pelican helps people on their critical missions, okay? When you look at yourself, JC, as a leader, what's mission critical to you now? I mean, what lever do you have to pull or get better at to take your own performance to the next level? And how do you go about evaluating that if you do? One of the first things I like to do is set expectations for all your stakeholders. Not just, I think, when we're younger in our leadership career, you tend to hone in either on the investors or on your leadership team or on the board or on just your customers.

31:30And I think stepping back and recognizing that in today's modern world of being a CEO, there are multiple stakeholders that have expectations. And assessing, and you don't have to take days and days with a strategic offsite to step back and say, OK, investors are looking for a return. Customers are looking for solutions and scaled service. The community is looking for support. The team is looking for vision and inspired, actionable plans for them to grow as an individual, to grow with the company. And so one of the first things I've learned is really assess the state of your stakeholder base and understand if you set expectations for each, will it actually meet or exceed theirs?

32:13And I think that's an important one is aligning on expectations. And you've seen or you've heard the story of if you're just a few degrees off with your investors in terms of expectations and you go down the path, you can be miles away a year later. So setting expectations and aligning on expectations, I think are really important. And it does something else, David, it avoids the difficult conversations down the road. Show me a difficult conversation where you have to relieve someone of their duties because it's a performance issues or something else. It's because you didn't have the aligned expectations at the beginning.

32:49And so So that's one of the first ones is aligning on expectations. I think the second one is also be an active listener. I do have a lot to say. I take up a little oxygen in a meeting room, but that's the energy side. But how do you also convert that to active listening? And in today's world, there's so much noise. How do you put the, I always call it wherever I am here, it's the Pelican noise cancellation headphones. Let's put those on team and look for the signal of what we should be prioritizing. And oftentimes when we have that group exercise, we arrive at the right conclusion of prioritizing and then looking at the potential.

33:27How do you step back, JC, so that you really go through that analysis? So that when you go into a year or whenever that period is that you say, hey, this is how I'm going to shape myself as I go forward. So, I mean, a lot of CEOs, they have a coach or they get 360 degree reviews and that. And I've had enough of those in the past, all very, you know, in varying degrees of, I would call success. But now I don't need to wait for that as an experience. I don't need to wait for the 360 or necessarily for the coach. I proactively pursue that. I'll talk to, I think it's important, you know, if you have a board, if you're only meeting with your board on prescribed calendar time, then you're probably not getting the best use out of that board.

34:15As an example, I often have chats and talks and off-calendar board conversations with some of our operating partners or our board members to get feedback or to align or when something isn't quite right. I said, we can't agree to disagree on the big things in the room, so let's solve those in advance. And so being proactive and setting up those sort of micro-relationship moments where you're constantly aligning, setting expectations, and learning. You know, if you're working with private equity, I mean, in a company that's seen, they've seen every dynamic of business. So not confronting the reality of your challenge to them, you're wasting everyone's time.

34:55You put it together with them, they can say, oh, we've been in this situation, we can help you more. So I would say that being proactive and getting feedback, and of course you have to, again, back to that setting conditions for success. I think one of the things my team would say is that JC is super approachable. He doesn't judge, but he expects you to come in with a point of view that you can defend. And so I think being approachable and being open to feedback and different points of view, and quite frankly, challenging some of the decisions I make, makes me a stronger leader. But building that trust and that team around you, it takes a little time.

35:32But when you get it, that's where I think the leadership momentum happens, not just for me, but for the team around me. And, you know, stepping back and really assessing that helps you get there. And, you know, speaking of stepping back, I want to take you way back. You know, what's the story from your childhood, okay, that really shaped the kind of leader you are today? Well, often when I introduce myself, and it's very real for me. I mean, I grew up in a military family. My father was a naval aviator and very successful in the 40 years military. And he would describe himself as a peacekeeper.

36:06So picture this on one side, military upbringing. My mother is a free spirit from Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada. Musician, community leader, just an unbelievable woman. She's 88 years old, strong. She sent me an update from the weekend that she's still playing guitar. She runs the movie theater. She went to the dance hall. So she's this unbelievable, energized, you know, yes, my mother, but also just in life, she's led through so many different dynamics with my father. We moved every three years and she would just go right into the situation, learn the language, move the family, set up for success.

36:47So I grew up in this military family, but this free spirit dynamic as well. And so that's what you get with me, not afraid to be a leader in the military, but at the same time, you know, not afraid of the free spirit. So that's that literally that's my DNA. And so and growing up, I have an identical twin brother. So that comes with a whole host of dynamics when you've got someone who's literally we're mirror twins, we're identical. So whether we got into trouble, it was always the twins. And then but, you know, we took different paths and along the way. And so growing up, we were absolutely, I would say, privileged to grow up in a military background where we were always the new kids.

37:29We moved to three or four different countries. And there was four of us kids within four years. So we were always the new kids. And I remember the teachers, the principals saying, you know, hey, are you ready for first day of school? Are you guys, is the Curly family ready? And I remember my parents going, are you ready for these Curly kids? I understand your dad taught you all about helicopter vision. Tell us that story. Yeah, I mean, he was, and he was, you know, we all like to think our dads were cool and accomplished, but he really was, and he was seconded. He was a Canadian naval aviator seconded by U.S.

38:06in the early 60s, ran the Intrepid on the 60s, the helicopter program, sonar, radar, all of that era, Bay of Pigs, and then also worked with NASA, space pickup, all that. So we grew up in this environment where helicopters were around us and he was the cool dad and he was doing cool things and we would watch him speak to people. And I was always in awe of his ability to engage with people as if he was only talking to you, even if there's hundreds of people in the room. So I picked up a lot as a kid, but then he would often talk about, you know, there's this notion of helicopter parenting, which is like hovering over your kids.

38:41It's not that at all. When I grew up, he would say, hey, the coolest thing about being a helicopter pilot is you can fly up and you can envision, you can see what's happening, you can scout out what's going on. If everything's going to plan, you do your role. If it's not, you can hover, land that helicopter, get out, help, support, engage, fix, solve, and then get back up and move. So he said, think about that as a leader. Like, if you have to be on the ground and leading from the front, could you do it? And at the same time, if you get up to 5 ,000, 10 ,000 feet and survey the landscape, what would it tell you?

39:15And so this notion of this helicopter vision, seeing things from the direct sight line on the ground right through to up at 10 ,000 feet gives a different perspective, a different dynamic, different scenario settings. And he said, just always have that helicopter vision in mind that you can hover up and down into a situation and engage accordingly. Love that. Love that. And you've worked with some great brands, and you're an incredible brand builder. And I'm going to just kind of do a rapid fire here and go through some of the brands that you've worked with, and just give me a quick, you know, big leadership insight you got at each one of these.

39:55You know, you work, for example, you worked at Keen Footwear, known for outdoor performance shoes. The leadership insight. Yeah, Leadership Insight there was young company, absolutely positively ferocious founder who fundamentally believed in the product he'd created when others didn't believe in it, a toe-protected sandal. You know, who needed it? If you wanted a flip-flop, you got a flip-flop. If you wanted toe protection, you got, you know, toe-protected shoes. And he fundamentally believed in this. And so it wasn't so much about the product, it was about building a brand around it. And the pivot was, it wasn't a toe-protected sandal.

40:33It was a hybrid shoe. It protected and it breathed. Who wears it? People living a hybrid life. What's that? People want to create, play, and care. And we created a brand around hybrid living that connected with a shoe. And so that's the leadership lesson is don't make it about the feature and benefit of the product. Make it about the vision of who would actually want to buy into what you're either selling or creating. going after the hybrid life. All right, Solomon, you know, a global mountain sports brand. Yes, Solomon, great story. George Solomon, 1947, invented the modern day ski binding. 30 years later, invented the rear entry boot, then launched the ski.

41:15So it took them like 40, 50 years to just skis, boots, bindings. And instead of, and I met George Solomon and he asked me, JC, you know, should we stick with skis and should we do more? And I said, George, where's the where's the mountain going to be in 20 years, in 10 years? And when you look at the mountain, it was going to do all these different things in snowboarding and backcountry. What happens when the snow melts? People are hiking. I said, let's go after not the share of ski, but the share of mountain. That was a big leadership transition. And today, Solomon is equally, if not more successful in footwear as it is in ski.

41:50And that was a moment of leadership where we went after the share of mountain. Levi's, which arguably the most iconic denim brand in the world. Yeah, Levi's. I mean, just I grew up wearing Levi's. My mother put me in Levi's. And even when you're the leader and it doesn't feel like you're leading, what do you do? And I think for Levi's, it was don't take your leadership for granted. And what happened in 2012, in that 2012 era, premium denim, private label. And my daughters didn't even know what Levi's was. They knew what Lululemon was. They didn't know who Levi's was. My son was wearing athletic.

42:26My wife was wearing$250 jeans and I stuck with my Levi's. And so I think there it was about not taking your leadership for granted, but rebuilding Fort Levi's to be more premium, to actually be about comfort, casualization, and the cool factor. And to do that, we unlocked what we called the center of culture. Where was the center of culture moment? Sports and music. And how did we find ourselves into that? And the big leadership, not even less than the moment, was when I was actively involved with the creation of Levi's Stadium. Tell us that story. Oh, that's a—so I moved to San Francisco, and I've been a 49ers fan for a long time.

43:04And then, you know, but this was before Levi's Stadium, and I remember watching a game. And do you know the mascot? Just think about this, a pop quiz. What is the mascot of the 49ers? I'm sorry. No problem. It's a gold miner. It's Sourdough Sam. He's a gold miner from the gold mining era. I've watched football for years and don't know that. I know. But most people don't. Most people can say, oh, I know what that mascot. So it's a gold miner. Well, Levi's was invented in the gold mining era. So he's this bigger than life mascot. And he's out there and he's doing his thing to start the game. And I pause on his rear end and I say to my kids, I say, he's not wearing Levi's.

43:45We got to get him into Levi's. Fast forward. We had dinner. myself, the CEO of Levi's, Chip Berg, and myself had dinner with Jed York and the team, the 49ers. And we met at dinner and I said, hey, I got a bone to pick with you. We got to get sourdough salmon Levi's. And then that was at the start of dinner. By the end of dinner, I said, well, how about Levi's Stadium? And Chip had had some experience with Gillette in New England and Boston. And I'd had sports experience with Adidas and so on. And fast forward to literally within months, we we inked a deal to do Levi's Stadium. And it really was a separator for the brand.

44:25And it wasn't about another store or doing some other line or a collaboration. It was a 20 year commitment to cement ourselves in the center of culture, music, sports, San Francisco, entrepreneurial, and of course, all the names and people want to call it the field of genes and, you know, you know, let's win one for the zipper and all that. But we settled on Levi's Stadium and arguably one of the most significant and impactful investments the brand made. But you know what it did, David? It was one thing to have impact and eyeballs and measurable marketing, but it gave the company, and I could feel that when we launched it, we brought the players and we brought the coaches and the Niner noise and the shows all to Levi's, like our headquarters on Battery Street in San Francisco.

45:11One of my favorite moments was the company had no idea it was happening. We did this massive town hall and out came these players and the Niner noise and we're up on the stage and we announced Levi's Stadium. And just the pride that the company had around, we're doing big things. And I remember walking into the boardroom and one of the board members said, JC, can you guarantee this is going to succeed? By the way, numbers were 20 years, a 20-year deal, and basically a$220 million deal, like$11 million a year, et cetera, and that's public knowledge. And so she said, can you guarantee this is going to succeed?

45:51I said, no, I can't guarantee it's going to be successful. But what I can guarantee is if we don't think like this, then we should reduce our ambitions as a brand and as a company. We have to think big. We have to think iconic. This is Levi's. And if this succeeds, it'll introduce us to a new generation. It'll reinforce the generation that's never left us. And it'll put us in the center of culture. Super Bowl 50 was just played there, well, 10 years ago. And then they just had Super Bowl a couple of weekends ago. And it was so awesome to see Brandi Carlisle playing a Gibson guitar, Charlie Puth wearing Levi's at Levi's Stadium, all part of a little piece that I've been involved with.

46:31Yeah, you're also at Gibson, one of the most legendary names in music. The big leadership insight there. Biggest leadership insight there. And again, how brands and businesses got to where they got to, it was technically bankrupt. They took on a lot of brands and over time and couldn't quite figure out how to innovate. And so you take on too much debt, you buy too many brands. So it was technically bankrupt. That's not the lesson. I think the lesson there was, again, And similar to Levi's where we said, okay, let's go after a share of closet or share of hybrid life or share of mountain. I recognized, you know, at Gibson, it wasn't just about selling more guitars.

47:07Gibson has been synonymous with writing, recording, shaping sound for over 100 years and live included. Let's go after the share of sound. And that became, so my rally cry, my Canadian PowerPoint rally cry literally was, I walked out on the stage the first day with just SOS on a piece of cardboard. And it truly was, SOS was the distress signal. We were bankrupt. People didn't know if they were coming literally into this, thousand people into this venue to say we're shutting down Gibson or they didn't know who I was. And I held a piece of cardboard and said, the distress signal's gone out. we're coming here with the investors, myself, with every ounce of experience.

47:48I'm also a musician, and it was very, very passionate. It was a noble cause for me. And I said, we're going to turn SOS into share of sound and save our sound and then share of sound. And we went after that. And now, you know, we rebuilt Gibson the right way over the last five or six years. And it's now synonymous with the share of sound. Awesome. Awesome. I'll tell you, this has been so much fun, JC, and I want to have some more. Now with the lightning round of questions that I have, are you ready for this, okay? I'm ready. The three words that best describe you? Energy, approachable, I would say empathetic.

48:22If you could be one person for a day beside yourself, who would it be? You know who it would be? It would be my grandfather. He was an orphan in London, read a sign on an old electricity pole that said, welcome to the new land. As a 16-year-old got on a boat and joined what was then the Northwestern Mounted Police and became a commissioner in the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. And just seeing going from an orphan to that brave step of getting on a ship to doing something that hadn't been done before and then bringing it around to accomplishing what he did was, he was a true pioneer. Your biggest pet peeve?

48:57When people are late and they take that for granted. It's one thing to be late and apologize for a trial. There's a situation. But just coming in and not acknowledging that you're late and understanding that that's the norm and you've kept other people waiting, drives me nuts. Who would play you in a movie? My twin brother. The best part about being a twin? The best part is you've always got an alibi. It wasn't me, Your Honor. I wasn't even there. No, the best part about being a twin is you have someone who's literally shared a lot of the moments in your life. And when something comes at you, there's nothing we haven't seen together.

49:36What do you and your favorite Pelican case have in common? I think I've built to protect, to equip for my family mission. And I think the Pelican case is built to equip for a physical mission and the two come together. Something you do as a family, speaking of family, in Costa Rica, you can't do anywhere else. I'll tell you what we can't do anywhere else is have spontaneous music nights that are multicultural by definition and everyone's in the band. What's something you've been curious about lately that has absolutely nothing to do with work? I'm obsessed with how restaurants work. I really am.

50:19I just think that if you think about, and I was a couple of months ago, I was at a dinner and I got this meal. I'm like, every meal served is a performance review for the restaurant. Every meal served. I mean, I get a performance review annually or something. I'm sure you as a leader would do performance reviews with your team or you'd get one as a CEO from your board. But every meal is delivered. it's a performance review and how they keep the pace, how they manage the inventory, how they keep things in motion, hot, and how they continually get a five-star. If you see a restaurant with continuous five-star reviews, you should learn what they're doing in terms of all of the dynamics to succeed in a bit.

51:01So I'm obsessed with restaurant dynamics. The one thing you do just for you. I play guitar every day. Besides your family and friends, what's your most prized possession? It is my Gibson 1966 J45 guitar. If I turned the radio on in your car, what would I hear? You would hear right now, oh, here's a shameless plug. You would hear a band called Where's West, soon to be at festivals near you, happens to be my son. But I do. I listen to a lot of his music. I think it's awesome and inspiring. And then what's crazy is our family, we've never fought about who gets to run Bluetooth in the car because we all have the same soundtrack.

51:47So I think that's a testament to not having to fight over music, but we all love the same music. What's something about you few people would know? That I'm a triple citizen. I was born in the U.S. to Canadian parents and then also was naturalized as a citizen in the U.K. So, you know, and having three passports wasn't the goal, but I think understanding the cultural dynamics that come with being connected to not just one place, but multiple places. When you grow up and you hear about diversity and inclusion, I lived it. So I don't have to be prescribed it. I actually have lived it. We're out of the lightning round.

52:22Great job, JC. Just a few more questions here. I'll let you get back to work here. You know, how do you lead at home? At home, I have three kids. They're all young adults now. And so, you know, one of the things I try not to bring work home, which is, you know, I think that's a lesson learned. I was younger in my day. I was getting up early and staying late. And now I try to get it done, not just through me and the team. So leading at home by trying to listen to what's going on in the family, not bringing my baggage home is probably the first thing to whatever mood I was in during the day, I have to sort of do this.

52:58And then when I was at Levi's, I would drive over the Golden Gate Bridge and use that as my cathartic moment to be like, OK, what's behind me is behind me and what's in front of me is in front of me. And so I think leading at home a little bit by example, doing my best to support, you know, obviously the family dynamics, but also all the lessons I learned in life through my parents. I try to put that into the kids. And it's amazing if a kid can play a video game, they can learn how to do dishwashers. They can learn how to do laundry. It's actually a good translation. So I try to make sure the kids are set up for their life beyond just living at home.

53:38What's your family taught you about leadership? You should do a podcast with my wife. In fact, what an exercise that would be if we all just brought our significant others in to run the company for a day. They've heard everything. But I think my wife has taught me, like, she's awesome. We met in college. We moved to London. She worked at Sony Music. I did this. And then we decided to have a family. So she took that path and did an amazing job at bringing the kids up. And I traveled and did what I did. And she's taught me that, like, you know, I kept doing what I did. Her life pivoted 180 degrees with going from being at Sony Music to being a mom.

54:18And she taught me like the 180 degree switch in life is way harder than your career chasing ladder that you think you're on until you realize that what we do as CEOs is challenging. And, you know, it's got a dynamic way of coming at you. But what moms have to do and what my wife, and by the way, we loved every minute of it. I don't know, maybe most minutes. But she just taught me that pivoting 180 degrees and doing it well is harder than just climbing the corporate ladder. You know, JC, this has been an incredible conversation. And you've been a part of so many big things. You know, looking back at it, you know, was there a failure that really that you had that that really taught you as much as the success that you've garnered over the years?

55:10When it comes to people, it's all roads come back to people. The problems are just different dynamics disguised by brand or by market condition. But when it comes to people really, and I think it goes back to that being aggressively patient, David, where I knew in my mind I needed to make a decision about an individual. And I relied on hope and luck and time and thought it would get better and it didn't. And then there were times when I might have made a decision too quickly. And I'm like, man, if I would have known and had a little more information, I probably wouldn't have made that decision.

55:44But one of the things I did do along that journey of, I found it very difficult to have the tough conversations, like ultimately relieving someone of their role. I mean, it's probably one of the toughest things we have to do as leaders. But if you do it with an element of anticipation, you set the conditions of expectation. You then say there's going to be a fork in the road. You have that conversation. You do it in a way that's empathetic, direct, and supportive, but yet declarative. I'm proud to say with that pivot, sometimes learning the hard way, I've had several individuals who over time I've had to relieve of their duty who still I would call friends.

56:26I'm a reference for them. And I continue to hold them in high regard for how they handle themselves in a difficult situation. And so I would say the thing I've learned the most is how to how to set those conditions for people that in the moment that matters most in their life and for the sake of the company, you do it in a way that's that's appropriate for the situation. You look back and say, despite the difficult decision, we handled it. We all handled it the right way. That's a tough one to do. No question about that. But it's great when you can. You know, last question here. What's one piece of advice you'd give to anyone who wants to be a better leader?

57:07Don't have a plan B. Have two plan A's. And I learned that from my father. And I really believe it. I think in today's world, when you automatically compromise against a vision that you have for yourself or for your team or for your company, and if immediately you go, well, our plan B, by saying plan B, it means we're not thinking this is going to go to plan, so we'll compromise to a B plan. Why not have two plan A's? And I think I really believe that. It's hard to say which one's the A and the B, et cetera, but my dad would always say, you know, it's under the heading of keep your options open.

57:45He'd say, hey, have two plan A's, guys. What's your two plan A's? And he would challenge us with that. And I think in business, in life, and with your team, challenging people to think about the alternatives as not the compromise, but as the alter alternative that could be equally good by having two plan A's. Love that, love that. And JC, this has been a ton of fun. You know, I love what you're doing. I love how you think. And congratulations on all your success. And thank you for taking the time. Absolutely, I really appreciate it. Thanks to you and the team, all pro setup. Good luck going forward.

58:16And again, appreciate the line of questions that got me thinking again, and I'll take this forward as well. Appreciate it.

58:28David, I never knew I would be so interested in Pelican products because I'm not a photographer and I'm not a musician, but I see these Pelican boxes all the time in airports. But now I feel like I need to go buy a Pelican case for every valuable item that I own. Well, why don't you? Maybe I will. What a fascinating leader. JC has had such an interesting career, David, and I'm excited to get your take on some of the concepts that you and JC talked about in the episode. As always, we try to give our listeners some real tangible takeaways from these shows that they can apply right away to their leadership and to their life.

59:04And this episode is no different in that it is chock full with insight. So David, the first thing that I really want to talk to you about, which is something I found so interesting in the episode, and it's how JC reframes what he sells. It seems like he has this pattern everywhere he goes. When he was at Solomon, he shifted from selling, you know, a share of skis to selling a share of the mountain. At Gibson, he talked about how to sell a share of sound, not just sell guitars. And now at Pelican, he's selling shares of protection, not just cases. I'm curious your perspective on how you go about positioning products.

59:39Well, I think it's really important for you to take your product and put it in its broadest frame of reference while still being true to what you are. You know, the example I always use on that front was Snickers. You know, Snickers used to be just a chocolate candy bar with peanuts, but they repositioned that brand in a much broader way by positioning it as a snack that satisfies, a snack that brings out that whatever hunger you have, you know, Snickers can do it. And so instead of being a, you know, an indulgent candy bar, it became a snack that satisfies. It's almost good for you, even though you're eating all that chocolate and caramel and peanuts and, but it made you feel better.

1:00:25It gave you permission to indulge and it broadened, broadened your business. And I think that's what, you know, really makes great brands. And by the way, you know, JC is a great brand builder, you know, but another good example is Nike. They went from being a shoe company to a human performance company. And, you know, anytime I think you think about your brand, you want to look about it in the broadest sense. You know, Golf Channel doesn't just see itself as a golf television channel. You know, Golf Channel sees itself as owning the golf business. And that's why they launched Golf Now, which helps you get tee times and golf pass, which Rory McIlroy was really behind that gives you ideas for golf and how you can get better.

1:01:11So all these are great ways to get, take a brand that you have and give it the broadest possible relevance. And when you do that, you, you usually unlock all kinds of growth. It's so true because it really does invite the customer into a much more meaningful and exciting story. Like if Snickers is just a candy bar that you indulge in, you almost kind of feel guilty for eating a Snickers, but you're so right. I actually reached for a Snickers yesterday. It was the first time in years that I've done that, but I was starving and I knew I wasn't going to have a meal for a few more hours. And I saw a Snickers bar and I was like, Snickers, because I'm not myself when I'm hungry.

1:01:50And so I grabbed the Snickers and ate it. And of course it's not actually good for me. We know all these things, but it's proof that when you associate your product with a greater way of being. A snack that satisfies. A snack that satisfies. It motivates your customer to take action. And I think, you know, JC is brilliant at that. David, the next concept that I want to debrief with you is JC's idea of his Canadian PowerPoint, a piece of cardboard that he writes something on to present to his team. And I love the simplicity of that and how he communicates internally with his team. And David, from your perspective, what are some other pointers on how we can get better at communicating internally?

1:02:35Well, I think, you know, just like a marketer needs to take a brand and make sure that you break through the clutter, I think a leader has to break through the clutter with their communication message that they're driving with their team. And, you know, one way I did that, I remember I was walking in San Francisco and I saw this store, I saw these four rocks in the window that you could buy. And there were words inscripted on each one of them. And I thought, man, I'm going to take those four rocks and I'm going to create a speech around these things. And the first rock said create. And I talked about the importance of creating vision.

1:03:16The second rock said courage. And on that rock, I talked about the importance when I held it up to the audience, I talked about the fact that you had the courage to be yourself. You had to have the courage to do the right thing. Then this third rock said encourage. And there I talked about the power of recognition and encouraging people to do the things that you know will drive your business and recognizing them for it. And then the last rock, believe it or not, was the tiniest rock of all. And on it was inscribed give. And I talked about that being the most important rock of all, because the more you give, the more you receive, the more you give to people, give to others, give to your customers, the more you receive.

1:04:00So I took those four rocks and I turned a speech that I gave over and over again, you know, where people could basically recite it because I broke through the clutter and gave people things to, you know, key messages that I wanted people to hear, but they could remember it because it was done in a different way. And that's what he does with his cardboard box. And, you know, I think he's right on the money there. Every leader needs to think very hard, not only about what they want to communicate, but how they can do it so that you break through the clutter. And we're being constantly bombarded with thousands and thousands and thousands of commercial messages every single day.

1:04:42So if it's just another PowerPoint deck that you send via email, it's probably going to look and be processed like every other PowerPoint deck that's sent via email. So I love not only the simplicity of it, but just thinking outside the box in terms of how you actually deliver information. And a cardboard box is a hilarious and effective way. Yeah. And by the way, you got to look for good analogies. Here's another great one that I just heard about. A really good friend of mine went to the master's and she had to give a presentation to her sales team. And she talked about Rory McIlroy and what she observed in the way how he warmed up, how he got prepared, how he visualized what he wanted to have happen, how he analyzed, you know, the result and, you know, went back after a very poor round of hitting the ball and figured out, you know, this is how he could improve his iron play and, you know, how he kept being persistent even in the face of adversity, you know?

1:05:46But she picked up a lot of these Rory McIlroy things that she saw at the Masters and turned it into a presentation. And so she just wasn't up there, you know, talking about a bunch of boring stuff. She made it relevant for everybody and people came up to her afterwards and said, hey, you know, that's really powerful. You know, another great example, I think it's really worked for me as I always talk about, it's my three by five card where, you know, what are you today? What do you want to be tomorrow? That's a very provocative way to get people to think about themselves. And they'll remember a three-by-five card.

1:06:17You know, they're not going to review a, they're not going to remember a typical performance review or performance assessment, you know. So, you know, think about how you communicate in a way that you'll break through the clutter and you'll be rewarded for it. David, this next topic is on what JC calls helicopter vision. And in the episode, he talks about how his dad was a Navy helicopter pilot. And he talked about, you know, his dad's experience and how he adapted that to his leadership. So helicopter vision for leaders is where you can fly up to, you know, 10 ,000 feet above ground to see the big picture of what's going on.

1:06:54But you can also land on the ground and engage with whatever is happening down there. And then you can float back up when you need to, to maintain your understanding of what's really going on in the big picture. And I know a lot of leaders feel torn between those two. So how do you know which of those altitudes, if you will, that you need to be at? Well, I think you have to be at both. And, you know, and there are different times when one takes precedent over the other. But, you know, sometimes, you know, you're struggling. Your business is struggling. You know, what you've been doing isn't really working the way I used to work.

1:07:33And you got to rethink your business. So you got to go up. You got to go up and you got to see the world the way out really is, not the way how you want it to be. You got to really see the whole landscape out there, you know, so that you can really figure out what you can do to create a vision and a future back for your company or for your team that will allow you to win. And so I think that's when you go up. And then once you've figured that out, you got to go down and make sure you execute the heck out of it. And, you know, but strategy, vision without the execution doesn't work. Everybody knows that.

1:08:11So, you know, that's something that I think you constantly have to do. And you got to have ways to do that. For me, it was always being in touch with the customer, always doing landmark research to try to identify what they were thinking today, you know, what had changed from the previous year. And usually when you lose sight of what's going on there, that's when you got to go up and find new data and see the world in a way that allow you to reposition your brand in a different way or reposition you yourself as a leader in a different way or help your team win. And, you know, I think that the big picture and the executional side of things are, they're both very important and the best leaders find a way to get the magic of the end.

1:08:59I love the episode, JC says this a couple of times. He says, what got you here won't get you there. And so I love that analogy of the helicopter, because if you stay on the ground too long, you run the risk of just doing the same thing with losing sight of the bigger picture. But if you're constantly sort of going between the two, you can continue to evolve and iterate and strengthen every piece of your business so that you continue making strides towards what you want to get done. Absolutely. Absolutely. Cool. And, you know, I think JC is a great marketing person, one of the better ones we've had on the show.

1:09:33and I think, you know, we learned a few things today, you know, that are really, really important. Number one, the importance of reframing what you sell, you know, understand what your product is, what its product functions are, but, you know, make sure you position it in the broadest possible way so that you can, you know, get the most market share in a category and, you know, that Snickers going from a candy bar to a snack was a great example of that, you know. And then, you know, you got to break through the clutter with your communication. You know, that Canadian PowerPoint ideas is really great.

1:10:14But, you know, as a leader, you got to know what you want to communicate. And then you got to make sure you communicate it in a way that people hear it and remember it. And they don't fall asleep and yawn because it looks like and sounds like everything else they've heard. And then last but not least, there's a tremendous characteristic that any great leader has. And that's the ability to see the big picture, but also execute and get things done. And that's why taking that helicopter ride up and down is very important. Well, thank you so much for an excellent episode. And thank you to our listeners for tuning in to How Leaders Lead.

1:10:53We will see you next Thursday.

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