#291: Mark Smucker, Chair and CEO, The J.M. Smucker Company – Understand the soul of your brand

24:43It's funny. A couple hours ago, we had a town hall meeting. all employees. And we talked about, you know, we're a Midwest company, be kind, thrive together, come really easily for Midwesterners, because it's easy for us to be nice to each other to live the golden rule, if you will, it's pretty basic stuff. Thrive together is about how we support our communities and each other. And one of the things that we're be bold, is an aspirational one and trying to encourage people to be comfortable in discomfort, to be open to constructively challenge each other when they say, you know, I think I might have a better idea to how we can accomplish this goal and to be comfortable challenging me, their boss, whatever it may be, and trying to model those behaviors so that that spirit of being constructively challenging ultimately gets us to a better place.

25:43It improves agility. It improves ideas. It gets us more thoughtful and bold innovation. And so those basic beliefs, those core values, we refer to them as basic beliefs, are really important to grow within our culture so that we can continue to win and be competitive.

26:03David Novak:So let's say I'm in a meeting and I come up with a really bold idea and you love it. Okay, what do you do? We celebrate it, right? We'd say, that's a great idea. Let's talk about that some more. Because, you know, I think sometimes another term we always use is, let's make sure we get all the brutal facts on the table. And the brutal facts are often things that aren't working. And so if we can identify the things that aren't working and why they're not working, then we can try to be bolder to try to fix them and improve a process. And a lot of times it's just the way we're working or they're not communicating.

26:45And so to the extent that we can actually drive those behaviors, it will improve our competitivity and ultimately it improves the culture.

26:54David Novak:Yeah. One of the things that's been proven over and over again, whatever you recognize, people will do more of. And I bet you have a lot of examples of that. You know, you talked a little bit about getting the brutal facts on the table. And a lot of times, business doesn't go the way how we want it to go. You know, can you recall a leadership mistake or misstep that you made earlier on in your career that forced you to grow faster than you even wanted to at the time, but really prepared you for the role that you're in right now? You know, I think we've had marketing campaigns that didn't work.

27:32When we first switched from Choosy Moms to That Jiffin Good, we did some very cinematic advertising that was good, but it didn't totally hit the mark with consumers. We had some very quirky advertising back in the 90s that was maybe a little too tongue-in-cheek and didn't hit the mark. And I think we learn from those mistakes, and those inform us about, well, why didn't we hit the mark? And what was the insight that we missed? And we definitely learned from those.

28:06David Novak:Let's talk about Uncrustables for a second. I mean, what a brand that is. You know, it's basically a peanut butter and jelly sandwich with the crust cut off, and yet it's on its way to becoming a billion-dollar brand. And, you know, what's the leadership insight behind that great innovation? And this is one where I see people snacking on a lot. That one, we didn't have to do any advertising for about the first 20 years because it took us about a decade to figure out how to produce them at scale. And we couldn't make enough of them. But what's been great about that brand, even though even before we turned on advertising and demand generation, it was already in culture.

28:52Athletes, celebrities, you know, posting about them in their in their social media. Both of the Kelsey brothers organically started talking about how much they love Uncrustables on on their podcast. And that turned into something that we could actually partner with them.

29:09David Novak:You ever seen anybody uncrust the Uncrustables? It's not possible. There's no crust on the Uncrustable. The part where it's like kind of pinched together on the outside? They'll actually peel that off. Yeah, well, these people are psychotic. Sabrina Carpenter actually posted on her Instagram while she was singing one of her new songs, Had a Grape Uncrustable. And so that has been very organic, and we've been able to latch on to some of those organic opportunities and continue that momentum. them. That product and that brand exists in almost every locker room of professional sports teams, regardless of the sport.

29:49So it's basketball, football, baseball. All those athletes are eating those and they talk about them. So that brand is going to be a billion dollars this year. We're about to finish our fiscal. It's going to be a billion dollar brand.

30:02David Novak:But it took you 10 years to figure out how to scale it. It took us 10 years to figure out how to scale it. It took us a long time to figure out how to make that perfect, pillowy, soft bread with no bubbles in it, which would lead to leaky sandwiches. And it took us a long time to do that. And so we figured that out. And we actually have three plants now that make those sandwiches and freeze them immediately after being assembled. Well, all my golfing buddies at the halfway house, they really thank you for that. Same. You know, now you've said one of your priorities is modernizing brands without losing their soul.

30:39David Novak:I love that, without losing their soul. How do you define what the soul of a brand is? You know, do you spend time articulating that or is you the head of the company or you just know it in your gut? I think it depends on the brand. And I'll give you an example. Cafe Bustelo is our fastest growing coffee brand. it's going to be a half a billion dollars this year in sales and it is a true has a true latino heritage it was born in new york in the puerto rican and hispanic community it grew up in miami within the cuban community and it has been embraced by many latino communities and as we we acquired that brand.

31:28And since then, we've really focused on that brand. And the soul of that brand is that is that Latin culture. It is chats over sweet espresso drinks. It is it is a truly bilingual brand. So all of them, all of the marketing communications go out in both English and Spanish. And that authenticity, that authentic Latin roots and its commitment to the arts. We've done a lot of work with supporting Latin artists, whether that's music or visual artists. We have done things specifically in the home markets of New York and Miami that support the brand. And that authentic heritage, that authentic Latin heritage has actually supported the growth across the country and largely with non-Hispanic millennials and Gen Zs who are the ones who are truly embracing that brand.

32:26And it's that authentic Latin soul that people gravitate to.

32:31David Novak:So that one seems like that would be an easier one to really get at the soul of what it is because it just flows out of the origin. But take Folgers. What's the soul of Folgers? The soul of Folgers was always that originally was all that waking up, that morning, the aroma of coffee. The best part of waking up is Folgers in your cup. Our new marketing campaign specifically hits on that. I referenced it earlier in terms of using all of these popular songs that are referencing waking up. And it eventually ties back to the slogan of the best part of waking up is Folgers in your cup. And so the soul of Folgers is the morning ritual, right?

33:23And it's not necessarily the old images we have of advertising from the 80s. Now it's, we all have different morning routines. We have sometimes some of us are racing out the door. Some of us are going to walk the dog. Some of us are taking the kids to school, whatever it may be. trying to participate with the brand in those different moments is what makes it still relevant.

33:51David Novak:Because you understand the brand so well, you can say consistent, you can be true to who you really, really are. Do you have any brands where you haven't been able to really define the soul? And by not defining what the soul, you haven't had the success you'd like it to have? Well, we talked a little bit about Jif and how that changed, right? From Choosy Moms to that Jiffin good. I think that was a good example where peanut butter is so ingrained in our culture as Americans. But we had to shift the tone of that advertising. I think if you look at our pet brands, those have also shifted a little bit.

34:32If you think about Milkbone, right? Milkbone is all about treating your dog. And as pet parents, our pets are part of the family. And so the Milk Bone has shifted to an idea of more dog. In other words, we need more dogs in our lives because they're loyal. They love us unconditionally and they always want to be around us. And so why wouldn't we want more dog? And so the soul of that brand has become this notion of we need more dogs in our lives because they make us happy. They support our psyche.

35:11David Novak:I love how you think about brands. And I'm thinking of Smucker and what you do with your company and your brands. And I'm thinking of like General Mills or Procter & Gamble, big package goods, mega companies. You seem to have a little bit more fun with your brands. I mean, how do you think your marketing stacks up to the big guys? You know, those are amazing companies. And I think what we know, and you know this because you've worked in this industry, our brands are everywhere, right? They're ubiquitous. They're in every store. And what that means in our industry is that to win is kind of a game of inches.

35:54You have to do a few things incrementally better than your than your competition. And one of the reasons why we have spent so much time investing in our marketing model and our in our marketing partnership with Publicis, which is the the firm that we work with, is because we have to we have to win. And so to really think strategically about what these brands mean to consumers and be bold, again, coming back to this idea of being bold with our creative execution that is addressing that consumer insight is how we will continue to win. So marketing is key and continuing to invest in that capability is core to being able to win in this very competitive industry.

36:45David Novak:And Mark, you got to be great at getting consumer insights. I mean, how do you get the insight? What do you do as a leader to make sure that you're grounded in the consumer and you have that insight that taps into how people use your products and behave with your products? I think being in business for almost 130 years and having had to adapt over that time frame to different consumer insights. I mean, for 100 years, we were just essentially a jam and jelly company. And we reinvented the category. We came up with every imaginable flavor, every caloric or sugar content, different types of sweeteners.

37:24And I think that that was the, you know, the birthplace of listening to the consumer. And I think making sure that we do the right kind of research, we listen to the consumer, we take them seriously, but we also don't go so deep that we get bogged down in too many insights. And then when we come back to the marketing work itself, we test it. We make sure that it is not crossing too many cultural barriers, but it's resonating with the core consumer or the new consumer we're trying to reach. I mean, I think it's just having the right discipline.

38:01David Novak:So, you know, earlier on, you know, and you've clearly established this conversation that, A, you love brands, but you also said you love working with people. You love the people side of the business. You know, when you have a big change initiative, you got to get done to make sure that Smuckers keeps its edge and you win. You know, what's the process you use? I mean, how do you think about leading people? What's it take? First of all, you have to set a clear vision, right? It has to be very clear what we're trying to accomplish and then continuing to cultivate the culture in order to deliver that.

38:38So I've mentioned authenticity. I think we have to remember that our people are human beings and it doesn't matter where you go in the world. Every single one of us as human beings, we want the same things. We want a roof over our head. We want our children to be safe. We want a good education to put food on the table. I mean, these are basic human needs. And if we can remember that each of us ultimately are striving for the same things, I think that allows us to be more, to relate to our people better and to not lose sight of these are all people. Even when we're making those difficult decisions, we have to treat them with respect.

39:25We have to make sure we're crystal clear in what the vision that we're marching toward is and help people understand what steps we need to take as a team to drive to that outcome.

39:37David Novak:You know, Mark, you've made a lot of bets on acquisitions, divesting great brands, and you've made a lot of big strategic decisions. What's a bet you've made as a CEO that still makes you a little bit nervous? one of the areas in pet that made me nervous is that we we increased our scale in dog food and in hindsight that was not the right decision because when we acquired the pet business we acquired it primarily because milk bone was a crown jewel it was a number one brand in dog snacks and we knew that Meow Mix was a number one brand in dry cat food. And we knew from the get-go that we could win with those two brands.

40:27And we thought that it gave us a right to win in dog food, which is a much bigger category. You're going up against huge competitors like Nestle and Mars. And we increased our scale. We bought a brand in that category, which ultimately didn't work. And there were some things, quite frankly, that we didn't see in the marketplace that we could have never anticipated. But what it taught us is that we have to stick to our strategy, remember why we got in the pet business from the beginning, which was dog snacks and cat food, and ultimately cause us to change our strategy and exit dog food altogether.

41:13And then it essentially, we basically doubled our margins in the two businesses that we kept, and we started to drive growth. And so in that case, it was about focus. And it was remembering what our focus was and why we got into that business in the first place. And so having made that decision and then course correcting was the right thing to do.

41:44David Novak:Makes a lot of sense. And this has been so much fun, Mark. And I want to have some more with my lightning round of questions. So are you ready for this? All right, let's go. The three words that best describe you? Well, independent, authentic, creative. If you could be one person for a day beside yourself, who would it be? Billy Joe Armstrong, the lead singer of Green Day. What's your biggest pet peeve? Complacency. Who would play you in a movie? I get Matthew McConaughey, which I think is a compliment. All right. What's your go-to Smucker's snack? Uncrustables. What's something you've been curious about lately that has absolutely nothing to do with work?

42:23I'm fascinated by outer space and the physics of the universe.

42:31David Novak:what's the one thing that you do just for you? Listen to music and play music in my little music studio at home. Your instrument? Keyboards and saxophone. Besides your family and friends, what's your most prized possession? I love my dog. If I listened to your playlist, what would I hear? A lot of house music and reggae. What's something about you few people would know? Oh man, people know me pretty well. What would they not know? I like to be alone Are you one of those extroverts that says that you're really an introvert? My Myers-Briggs says I'm on the fence between an introvert and an extrovert That's right, you got the right brain, the left brain working There you go, I love it All right, what's one of your daily rituals, something that you never miss?

43:20Honestly, there's a couple things I try to exercise in the morning but I also usually listen to music on the way to work. I usually listen to news or NPR maybe on the way home, but I usually don't start my day listening to the news. I might look at it on my phone at first, catch up on a little bit of TV, but when I get in the car and I have a 40-minute drive to work, my preparation is music.

43:49David Novak:I can't believe it'd take you 40 minutes to get anywhere in Akron. Yeah, it's about 40 minutes from Morville. But I grew up here in this little tiny town. I went to high school here and everything. So you understand your soul just like you understand the soul of your brands. I think so. There you go. You're out of the lightning round. Good job, Mark. Now, how do you think about leadership at home? I think one of the most important things in this job is to practice switching it off at home. I think that's what leadership is at home. It's understanding how to switch this work off at home and be present.

44:29And it's not always possible. And it's hard for us when we have jobs where we're on call 24-7. But being able to switch gears from the professional and to spend time with my wife and say, hey, honey, how was your day? And actually ask those questions and actually be curious about it. I think that's one of the most important things that we can do as leaders to be present for our families.

44:53David Novak:And, you know, present is a big word these days. I mean, people are really talking about getting present, the spirituality of being present, not looking out to the future, not looking back. You know, how do you stay present? Do you have a trick up your sleeve that helps you do it? Practice makes perfect. I've done in my life, I've done a lot of yoga. I meditate when I can. And I think that helps, you know, meditation calms the mind and it helps us learn how to be present and learn how to switch off the craziness that our mind wants to tell us is going on. That's great. Great stuff. You know, and last question here, what's one piece of advice you'd give to anyone who wants to be a better leader?

45:38You know, I always say that I think people need to show their true selves and be vulnerable. And I have seen in my career times when I have encouraged other leaders to do just that and let their guard down, they become more human to their teams and they become better leaders. And I can say from my own experience, the best leaders are the ones that are willing to take feedback and change. And I truly believe I've had lots of feedback over the years from mentors, from 360 assessments. And I always try to take it seriously. And we're never done, right? We're never the best version of ourselves. And I hope that tomorrow I'm a better version of myself than I am today.

46:31David Novak:Well, Mark, I have to tell you, I've enjoyed this conversation immensely. You are authentic. You know, you are creative. You're independent. And I can tell you, you love your job and you have fun. And it's a grind. I know there are a lot of times every day is not perfect. It's a grind. But I think when you walk down the halls and you walk into a meeting, people know that it's going to be lively for sure. You have to have fun. And it can be a grind. But if we're not enjoying it, then it's not worth doing, right? Right, right. And thank you. I've enjoyed this a lot. Thank you, David. I really appreciate it.

47:09David Novak:David, before listening to this conversation, I had no idea that Mark Smucker is a genius behind the craze that is Uncrustables. They're about to be a billion dollar brand, those tiny little sandwiches. It's funny. It's this little town in Ohio, Akron, Ohio, or just outside of Akron, Ohio, has created one of the greatest packaged goods companies in the world with his leadership and his family's leadership. And it's really amazing to see how they win, which is, I think, breaking through the clutter, taking on the big guys, but do it in a way that really captures the imagination of their consumers.

47:46David Novak:And they're not afraid to be bold, that's for sure. David, I loved hearing Mark's take on all of the topics that you all discussed because he is so creative, and yet he's also very analytical at the same time. And I want to break down some of those concepts and get your take on them so that our listeners have something really tangible from this conversation that they can apply right away. The first concept that, David, I want to debrief with you is this idea of bold creative. Mark's a creative guy, and I loved hearing him share stories of some of the creative that worked for their family of brands.

48:18David Novak:And he is not afraid to be bold with creative like that. The thing is, though, a lot of people like to play it safe because the thought of being bold is just too risky for them. So how do you get internal buy-in for bold creative like that and get everyone on the same page? You know, first of all, I think it's part of what the culture of your company is, which is to stand out and to be different and to break through the clutter. But, you know, it's not enough just to be bold for boldness sake. You know, it has to be rooted in consumer behavior and how your consumers see your brand. And one great example of this is Jif in its earlier days had a great positioning that everybody really admired, which was choosing mothers choose Jif.

49:01David Novak:And it really positioned them as the peanut butter for moms who cared more about their family and wanted to give them the best. And it really worked. But as time evolved, it became a little bit outdated. And then he evolved to that's jiffin good. I mean, you know, that's pretty out there. I don't know if I'd have the courage to go that way because, you know, it's pretty close to something else. But they did it. And, you know, it's been very successful and it's helped them really, really drive the business. But, you know, I think what you have to do with your team and the entire organization is let people know what you are, what you stand for, and how you've won.

49:44David Novak:And I think that's where they've made the conscious decision that they want to be out front in terms of where culture is. They want to talk to consumer in terms of where culture is and where it's going. And they want to be leaders. They don't want to be followers. And they're not afraid to take on the big guys like Procter & Gamble and General Mills with less money because what they do, is they're very smart about how they spend theirs, making sure that they really stand for something that's unique and different in the marketplace. And just as importantly, not just different, not just breaking through the clutter, but being relevant to their consumers in terms of really, you know, giving them the products that they're looking for and talking to them in a way that they want to be talked to.

50:28David Novak:It's such a good distinction, not being bold for boldness sake, but being bold in a way that is rooted in consumer behavior and attention. That distinction is so helpful because you do see some brands who are just going for it just to go for it. And it doesn't really make sense and it doesn't land. And it's almost, you know, self-serving in a way. But to be rooted and consuming. How many commercials, Coola, have you seen and ads that you've seen that you don't even remember as who it's for? You know, not next day. I'm talking five minutes from now. Right. You know, many of the Super Bowl commercials where you're spending millions and millions of dollars on, you don't even remember them.

51:05David Novak:versus, you know, there are some people who really break through the clutter and you remember them forever. I remember Master Lock, which is one of my favorite commercials ever, and they still run it. They take that Master Lock, they show the Master Lock, and they show a bullet being shot through the Master Lock, and it's indestructible. And that was the only ad they ran all year. But it broke through the clutter. You know, established Master Lock is the most secure and safe lock, and everybody remembers their names. Now, that's bold, creative, that's relevant. David, the final concept that I heard Mark talk a lot about in your conversation is this idea of curiosity.

51:41David Novak:And he talks about exploring new cultures, traveling. He lived in Argentina for a while. And he believes that being curious about the world makes him a better leader. And I'm curious, David, what do you do to stay curious in a way that helps you continue to become a better leader in person? You know, I think what he's really talking about there is just learning. And I wrote the book, How Leaders Learn. And it's all about having curiosity in different ways, learning from your upbringing, learning from pattern thinking, you know, learning from by listening. But I think in the end, you know, the best leaders, they have their antenna up.

52:20David Novak:They're just always looking for new ideas. And, you know, we've had guests on before saying there's nothing like having fresh eyes and seeing things like a child. And when you see things as a child, you discover new things and you see things in a light that you'd otherwise not have. And I think leaders have to have fresh eyes. They've just got to have that antenna up and want to learn and pick up new things. You know, I think one of the things that was the greatest things we ever did at Young Brands was just do best practice visits. We would go, you know, to the best restaurants that we thought were out there and just, you know, go in and see what they were doing and say, what could we do in our restaurants?

53:07David Novak:You know, we went to the best companies. You know, if there was social media, you know, that was coming in that was really taking off and like TikTok or you pick it, you know, we'd be the first to go to that place and learn everything that we could about it because you have to have your antenna up. I've heard you talk a lot, David, about being an idea hunter, which is basically what you're saying, just always on the hunt for new ideas or how to do things better or pattern thinking. And I loved your book, How Leaders Learn. I think that whole idea of active learning is just that. Yeah, it's not enough just to be an avid learner.

53:44David Novak:You have to take what you learn by being an avid learner and turn it into action. You know, bring it back to your team and your company and do something from that learning that will be relevant to your own specific business. And, you know, I always say that you really don't have to be that smart if you're just smart enough to learn from others. Well, David, speaking about curiosity, what's something that you're curious about right now that has nothing to do with work? You know, I think I'm really, you know, I've always been, you know, a big believer and love the Bible. But I'm also now really trying to learn more about spirituality in different ways.

54:25David Novak:You know, one book that I read every day, it's just funny, you know, you asked me that, but I just looked down, I see a couple books right here. Okay, a few, more than two. You know, I got four on my desk right now. I'd read this one every day, The Daily Stoic, okay? And, you know, I try to apply that to my life. You know, I love The Road Less Traveled, you know. The Dark Side of the Light Chasers, which is an excellent book. It makes you think. And Man's Search for Meaning. You know, these are just four I have on my desk. I haven't read all of them, but I've read some of them. But I pick them up, read a chapter here, a chapter there.

54:59David Novak:And one that is not on my desk right now that I love is Think Like a Monk. Okay, it's been around for a while, but I hadn't read it. And I love it. But it has nothing to do with work. But it gets me to have higher self-awareness and hopefully be a more compassionate and kinder person. I love stuff that just makes you think. Sometimes it's just good to think with no other agenda. Yeah, self-reflection is one of the key traits every great leader has. Well, David, that does it for our episode today. Thank you so much. And thank you to Mark Smucker for a fantastic conversation. With a name like Smucker's cool, it's got to be good.

55:32David Novak:It's got to be good. And of course, thank you to you, our listeners, for tuning in to another episode of How Leaders Lead. We will see you next Thursday.

55:45Thank you.