#292: Kecia Steelman, CEO, Ulta Beauty – Progress over perfection

21:21David Novak:And then one thing that we've really leaned into in the last year, and I like what I've seen and we're going to continue to lean into it, is this experiential shopping. So eventing is very important to us. We had over 110 ,000 events in our stores. So think about a brand coming in, bringing in their educators, teaching people how to use new tricks and tips for makeup usage. I mean, even though I'm a big makeup, I think I'm a makeup guru, I'm always learning new things. And the more that you can create those kind of experiences in store, I think continue to, you know, strengthen that moat for us as a beauty retailer against online only players.

22:02David Novak:The other thing I would say is that, you know, I'm very close to the consumer. We ship from store from our stores. So speed of delivery, which used to be one of our, you know, competitive disadvantages. Now I've kind of shrunk that timing. We have same day delivery now through our third party marketplaces. So the places where we were at a competitive disadvantage, we've, you know, minimized those and we've continued to lean in those things that make us special and why you would want to come and shop our stores. And then just the last thing is this loyalty program that I talked about earlier is like you earn your points, you get dollars back for your points.

22:39David Novak:So if you're going to make a decision to buy an item, people who are in our ecosystem, which again is 95 % of our guest base, they understand the value of that loyalty program and they will want to spend their dollars with us versus having it diluted someplace else. So you're a makeup guru, okay? You obviously know your category and you're proud of it. How do you stay on top of your game? I mean, how do you keep getting better? So you talked about learning, what do you do to become even a super guru? Well, what I will say is I spend, as a CEO, I spend a lot of time with the brands. I think it's important to be really connected to the brands.

23:21David Novak:I also go out to stores a lot. And I'm talking to consumers myself and to our associates. Our associates on the front line are some of the best piece of feedback I can get as a CEO, because they're the ones that are engaging and they represent our brand every single day. So I think not staying in my office and just reading literature, but being out there, being out there with the brands, being out there in the community with our stores, customers and the associates, I think, you know, helps me continue to learn and grow myself. What's the best idea, Keisha, that you picked up from a retail associate, a store associate?

24:04David Novak:The best idea is that we needed to have a quick tutorial on what's less than a 10-minute I application. Speed is really important. Not everybody has hours to get ready in a morning. So to come up with a regimen that we could do less than 10-minute I, here's three steps. So simplification, simplification, simplification was something that I'd heard from that are associates that I actually took to some of our brands to say, the more you can simplify and make it easier for an everyday consumer to get a real glamorous look or the look that they want. I think when you can close that gap, that's going to help us continue to drive business.

24:48Now, this is so much fun. I want to keep diving into how you're leading this great company of yours, but I want to take you back for a minute. What's the story from your childhood that shaped the kind of leader you are today? You know, we talked about your small town roots, but, you know, what was it like for you growing up?

25:04David Novak:You know, I will say I came from very humble beginnings. And my parents got divorced when I was in high school. And I actually had to go to work pretty much full time in high school to help my mom pay the bills. And, you know, to really learn the value of a dollar. and appreciate how hard my mom really worked to reinvent herself later on in life. That stuck with me forever. The drive that that instilled in me to be financially independent myself and to also continue to push myself to learn more day in and day out. I didn't want to stay in a small town in Iowa. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

25:51David Novak:When I go back home, I'm so appreciative of that. but I had big plans for what I wanted to do. Did I ever think I was going to be a CEO one day? No, but I just wanted to continue to learn and grow and challenge and get myself out of my comfort zone. And for that, I'll be always thankful. You know, I do think that those are character building moments that form us into who we are today. So your mom is your biggest, biggest inspiration. You know, what do you think she taught you that you just couldn't learn anywhere else? Resiliency and grit. the two. And, you know, she subsequently went and started her own business on her own.

26:29David Novak:And my younger sister ended up going to work with her and she just retired not that long ago. So she was working into her seventies and that to me, you know, just seeing her in person, just push herself to, to do more and to provide for her family just meant everything to me. Hello friends. I hope you're loving this conversation. Be sure to stay tuned to the very end of the episode. As always, David and I are going to debrief some of the concepts that he talks about with this week's guest. So stay tuned to the very end and I will see you soon. You know, you had your first child, as I understand it, when you were 20, as a single mother living in government housing.

27:10How did that period of life impact your leadership?

27:13David Novak:Yeah, well, I would say, you know, again, these are the stories that create us and make us who we are today. And I think give us give us the character that we have as leaders. And I would say, you know, just the power of belief in oneself. I often talk about this story and I it's just so clear in my brain of I was in the projects and my daughter was in the little walker walking around and I'm in this little half bathroom looking in the mirror and I'm like, this is not where I want to be in life. And I thought to myself, the only person that can get you out of the situation is looking right back at you.

27:50David Novak:So what are you going to do about it? And I just was like, I prayed that night. I just needed somebody to give me an opportunity to be able to learn and grow. And I was going to work as hard as I could and show whatever company was going to give me a chance, what I could do. And that's when I went to work for Target and so thankful for that opportunity. So you, as I understand it, in that situation, you started out making$8 an hour. What was the biggest lesson that you learned in your 12 years working there, if you had to just pick one? Yeah, I mentioned this earlier. It was about surrounding yourself with people that were even better than you were.

28:30David Novak:And, you know, I didn't have the opportunity to get the college education that many of the people who actually ended up working for me had. And so I, through osmosis, was able to learn from them. I also know what I'm good at and where I needed to learn and grow. And I think sometimes leaders are intimidated by hiring people that are better than themselves at maybe where their weaknesses are. And I just wasn't. I was like, hey, listen, I feel blessed to be in this job and in these roles. I want to hire the very best people that can actually make me better as a leader myself and learn from them.

29:07David Novak:And I think just having that level of humility to even say to people that were on my team, hey, quite frankly, you're better at this than I am. It creates this, it kind of breaks down this barrier, this wall between boss and employee where it becomes more of a team. And I've carried that with me really through every position I've been on, even into the CEO role today. It's like, you're not successful on your own. This is, well, I have a title. It's not just a one person job. You're only as good as those people that you surround yourself with. And when you can create an atmosphere where people can really authentically be themselves and be honest and direct, and you can have those candid conversations because I'm still very humble and blessed and I'm still learning.

29:53David Novak:There's no finish line. Just because you got the job doesn't mean you know everything. And you were a store manager, right? I mean, how many CEOs really have that background of really knowing how it happens at the front line? Yeah. Well, I mean, I started as an hourly employee to a store manager, to a district manager, a regional, then into merchandising. So I think really understanding and walking in some shoes of others, especially in retail. I mean, I've been at this over 30 years. That gives me a very different perspective and a unique perspective that I think keeps me very, very grounded.

30:31David Novak:In fact, when I go into stores, I will always make sure I talk to the cashiers. And people are like, that might be viewed as a little odd. Well, the cashier is the last person anybody purchasing something in my store sees. They can have a great shopping experience, but if they have a bad experience with that cashier, it tarnishes the entire experience. So I always go in and talk to the cashier about how much I appreciate them, how important they are, that they represent the brand of our store and our company even more than I do, because they're the ones that the guest is interacting with. And I think having that perspective from growing up in retail maybe gives me a little different viewpoint than maybe others.

31:11And you went on to go to Home Depot. You know, it's great this background that you have that's leading you into the beauty industry. You know, you go to Home Depot, where I understand And Carol Tomei, who I've had on this show, she was a CFO at the time. She had a huge influence on you. Can you talk about that?

31:27David Novak:Yeah, absolutely. In fact, I just saw Carol not too long ago. And I just shared with her, you know, I often have used her as an example of a female that I greatly, greatly admire. She was tough. And, you know, I learned the importance of like, if you're going to go in and ask for dollars, you better make sure that you're asking with a really good game plan because she was going to follow up on, did that investment pay out? And I often think about that today when, you know, we're making choices of investment in CapEx or OPEX dollars and Ulta Beauty. It comes back in my mind of like, okay, well, you're going to need to come back and show me what that ROI is because if you don't have the ROI, it's not going to be as easy to get the money the next time.

32:09David Novak:So you better be asking with a really good plan behind it. And for that, I'm always very appreciative. And, you know, when I was at Home Depot, there were not a lot of female leaders that were in the officer ranks at the time. And she just was really someone that was approachable, tough, fair, and was an advocate for other women. And for that, I'm always grateful and very thankful. And, you know, to see her be successful as a CEO at UPS, I'm cheering her along. So it's great. She's done a great job, you know, and you joined Ulta in 2014. And, you know, you You were doing a great job, but as I understand it, you were passed over for promotion at one point in time.

32:50How'd you handle that?

32:51David Novak:Yeah. You know, listen, there've been a few times where, you know, we've all been there where you think you're the one and then you don't get the job. And I think that there, I've said this a few times, I think that there's two ways you can go. You can either be better or you can be better. And I've always chosen the path to be like, okay, maybe it stings right now, but I'm going to take a step back. And what is it that I can do to get myself ready for that job? That's going to make me even better for it. And that's every single time where I have not gotten the position. It's happened the way that it's supposed to, you know, and energy is a big thing to me.

33:30David Novak:And I talk about this with my team. It's like, how you spend your energy, what you spend it on, spend it on things that are going to propel you in the right direction. And, you know, I see so many people, they don't get something, they get angry, they get upset, they, you know, that's wasted energy to me. It's like, I'm going to spend it on, okay, I'm going to take this opportunity to be really ready then when my time comes. And again, I couldn't be more proud of where that's taken me into this role that, you know, as a little girl growing up in rural Iowa, I would never have believed I would be the CEO of the largest specialty beauty retailer.

34:05David Novak:It's the job that most girls I think would envy to have. So it's worked out well for me. I've shared that with others many times. It's like things happen when they're supposed to just keep moving forward. And what can you do to take this opportunity to be even better when the time is right for you? Yeah. And you started out as hourly, you worked your way up in operations and now here you are the CEO. And one of the big responsibilities the CEO has is to really develop a great culture and to scale that and to make sure that everybody understands, you know, how you move ahead and how you work together.

34:35How are you going about that, Keisha?

34:37David Novak:I believe in simplification. You know, even our strategy, it's the Ulta Beauty and Lease strategy. We've got three core parts to the strategy. I want to make sure that we're using language and a clear understanding that everyone from the back room of the store to our boardroom clearly understands what it is that we're trying to do and the role that they play in that. And I think that some simple language, sometimes I like, I've been parts of organizations, great organizations that is like, I don't know what it is that we're trying to do. I'm just, you know, trying to move forward. But I do feel like our teams really understand and they're inspired and they're motivated and they understand the why.

35:20David Novak:I think that's also really important. And that goes back to like, when I was working in stores, is like, I would be doing things. I'm like, I don't understand why I'm doing this. I'm doing it, but I don't understand why. When we can give the associates the answers to the why, they feel a little bit more invested in it. So I think that's a role that I play as a CEO is clarity of vision and mission, clear strategy that everyone understands what their role is to execute the strategy and then deliver it. And when you keep doing that and you keep putting the winds up, the momentum does change within the organization.

35:54David Novak:And I've seen that happen this last year. How do you know if the team is really aligned? How do you know that you're really getting your message implanted? Yeah, well, I think we do a lot around culture, culture surveys. I do skip level meetings with various levels within the organization. I also think that, you know, every once in a while, you've got to phone a friend and be like, hey, I need you to tell me the truth. Like sometimes when you get to these levels, people tell you what they think you want to hear. I don't, that's not what I want. I want, tell me the truth. Because the only way that we can keep moving this company forward and be, you know, getting the teams along is everyone, if everyone's really clearly aligned.

36:38David Novak:And that to me is really important. Spending time with associates, listening, being out there, being engaging and creating an environment where people can tell you that they don't agree. And that's very, very important to me. That's just as important as people that are like, yeah, I'm all team on board. Great. If you're not, I value and respect that just as much. But I want to hear why. Like, tell me why. And maybe there's something I need to change. What behavior do you love rewarding the most at Ulta? People who are problem solvers. I love rewarding. I've identified a problem. And they come in and they say, this is the problem.

37:18David Novak:and here's what I think some of the solutions could be. I think that's a mindset that I really value and appreciate. Not just bringing problems and having a victim mentality or like this is being done to me. It's like, no, this is a problem. This is what I think we could do. Or even having multiple versions of different plans that they've thought through it. That means a lot to me. I love the simplicity of just phone a friend to really get some great feedback. You know, speaking of feedback, What's the toughest feedback you've received as a CEO? I wouldn't say that it's tough. It's hard for me to, I have a really hard time saying no.

37:56David Novak:And sometimes you can get stretched because I want to be everything to everybody. And, you know, to be told, like, I think you need to probably start to say no a bit more. And that's hard. That's personally very hard for me, especially when I felt like we had some momentum that we needed a course correct. I felt like I needed to be out there. I needed to be there for my team. And to keep up the pace that I was doing my first year probably was not sustainable, but it was necessary. And to learn to have to say no, because I have a FOMO, I have this fear of missing out sometimes, but I'm working on it.

38:37David Novak:I would say I'm in recovery of this saying no, but - Watch out for FOMO, it'll get you in trouble. Exactly, exactly. Well, 91 % of your associates are women. What's something you've learned about leading women that most male CEOs get wrong? I think that we have to be very flexible. And, you know, I'm going to take this from myself personally. When I was coming up through retail, I did feel the pressure of like I had to be the first in the office and I had to be the last to leave to show that I was committed to the company because I did have a family. and I didn't necessarily always have the support behind the scenes on raising the family.

39:17David Novak:And so for me, I'm very big and I talk very openly, like do not miss the soccer games. Don't miss the choir concerts. Don't miss the parent teacher conferences. I trust you that you'll get the job done and you'll maybe do it in your own authentic way. Maybe it's a different in time. Maybe it's working after the kids go to bed, I think I am a lot more adaptable than maybe some other leaders can be. And it's because I've been in those shoes before. And I do think that creating an environment where you give that flexibility and you allow that trust there, you get people that want to work even harder for you.

39:57You know, you've talked about identifying women and leaders that have the it factor before they even see it in themselves. You know, walk me through what that looks like, a specific moment, a story maybe when you spotted someone and how it played out.

40:13David Novak:Well, it was interesting. I just happened to have a skip level conversation. And so it's not just women. It's also men. A skip level with one of my male leaders today. He's a regional vice president. And I shared with him, you know, I saw it in you before you saw it in yourself. And he's like, I know you did. And he said, that's what makes me want to work even harder for you is because you believed in me before I believed in myself. And I think part of it is when you've led large teams and you've seen people and how they react and how they engage with people, I can kind of see when somebody has that special something and I verbalize it.

40:50David Novak:And the reason that I take the time to verbalize it is because maybe somebody hasn't ever done that for them in the past. And just even a little like something like I see something in you. I see something greater in you than maybe what you see right now. You can do more. You can do more. Push yourself out of your comfort zone. Somebody did that for me early on in my career. And it stuck with me that I can make a difference, especially in this role with the thousands of people that I run into. And if I can lay that seed where they believe that they can do even more and push themselves for a little bit more, it could change the trajectory of their career.

41:30David Novak:And that, to me, is the most rewarding part of my job. What's something that you're doing at Ulta with AI that other leaders might be able to apply to their own businesses? Well, I mean, right now, we're definitely leveraging AI on our loyalty platform. So really understanding how the guest is shopping. how are they engaging in purchase patterns and behavior? And some guests like a gift with purchase, some want a discount, like how we're really leveraging our marketing dollars and investing them very wisely. We are fortunate to have such a rich first party data loyalty platform. Some of the things that we're doing with AI is even around our content creation and how we're putting content in front of the consumer.

42:19David Novak:You know, it's content is really important. You have to have a lot of content. So how you leverage AI to help you in creating some of the content, but then putting the personal approach to it so it can give you the framework of what you need to do. I think one of the things that we've, everybody's got to be careful of is if it gets too augmented and it's too much AI and it doesn't come across as authentic, you're going to turn people off and you're going to lose that guest. So I'd say that's another place that we're really leaning into. And then all around customer service, the more you can improve your customer service, whether if it's a call-in on a return, et cetera, how you can speed those interactions up, I think, and do it in a way that really works, leveraging AI for the good, I think that's going to be an unlock for us also in the future.

43:08How are you personally using AI to level up your leadership?

43:13David Novak:Yeah, you know, I was just sharing earlier today, Like I'm leveraging AI every single day. It's kind of one of my CEO challenges of like, I've got it, I want to be using AI in some way, shape or form. So, you know, I was looking at some documents and reading through them. And rather than like reading through and then sitting down and then typing my feedback, I used Cloud and just talked into my microphone of like what my thoughts were. And while it sounded like it was a random, just thinking from myself, I asked Claude then to make it concise and provide feedback on the strengths and opportunities that I had shared in my feedback that I had put in my phone.

44:00David Novak:And it came up and I had to make a few tweaks, but it was like, well, this is pretty darn good. This saved me a tremendous amount of time. That would have taken me a lot more time to have done it in the traditional way. So time is my most important asset. So the more I can find ways to leverage AI to make my time more efficient, I think that's going to be a huge win for me. What's something, Keisha, that you've had to unlearn as CEO that you used to believe? That I had to have all the answers. You know, when growing up, especially when you're a functional expert, more like singular functional expert, and you got some more senior leadership positions, there was a lot of reliance on that you would have all the answers.

44:49David Novak:and when you, I think I kind of learned this more as the COO, as your areas broaden, you know, I was in charge of IT, supply chain, stores, strategy, to be an expert in all those is impossible and to not have the answers, but to know how to get the answer and to give yourself the grace of some time. I had to unlearn that because again, growing up in a pretty male dominant retail industry. Like I had to be, well, I felt like the best and I had to have all the answers and to relearn that and to take that burden off myself. I learned before I stepped into this role, but I'm glad I did because it's impossible to know everything and to have all the answers.

45:33David Novak:And it's almost a danger to feel as a CEO that you have to have all the answers because that's impossible. You know, Keisha, this has been so much fun and I want to have some more with my lightning round of questions. So are you ready for this? I am. The three words that best describe you? Decisive, bold, gritty. If you could be one person for a day besides yourself, who would it be? Beyonce. Your biggest pet peeve? Laziness. Who would play you in a movie? I'm just saying, I think this person is beautiful, so I'd like her to play me, but she looks better than me, Jennifer Lopez. A beauty trend you secretly hope never comes back?

46:08David Novak:Blue eyeliner. An Ulta product you couldn't live without? I mentioned earlier the Ulta Beauty Lip Oil. Where were you when you found out you'd been named one of Time's Women of the Year? I was actually, I just landed in Indonesia. What's something you've been curious about lately that has absolutely nothing to do with work? I'm really interested in getting into more of the World Cup. So the World Cup, I want to understand a little bit more of the dynamics around the World Cup. Now, I can tell you're becoming a true international, and an international is that answer. The one thing you do just for you.

46:45David Novak:This may sound crazy, but I'm adamant about my sleep. I prioritize my sleep. Besides your family and friends, what's your most prized possession? I'd say my dog. If I turned on the radio in your car, what would I hear? Oh, I listen to a wide range of music, but I'd say I do really like EDM house music. What's something about you few people would know? That I'm a speed reader. And what's one of your daily rituals, something that you'd never miss? I read the newspapers in the morning, first thing. All right. We're out of the lightning round. Good job there. Way to go. All right. Just a few more questions and I'll let you go here.

47:28You and your husband, great. You know, you have a blended family of five kids and a few grandkids. How do you think about leaving at home, Keisha? you?

47:37David Novak:I really am very present at home. And it's one of the things that I think being a young mom myself, I was really busy and I was probably distracted a lot. And now I have three grandchildren who I just absolutely adore. And when I get time with my kids and their spouses, I am very, very present when I'm home. And that I'm really proud of that when they have me, even though it might not be a lot of time. The time that I have is very present. How do you make that happen? I treat my personal calendar as important as I do my work calendar. If I have something that I've committed to my family, I would never ever think about missing a board meeting or an important meeting with a brand.

48:19David Novak:I need to treat my family the same way because they're very important to me too. You've said balance is important, but striving for perfect balance will set you up for failure. Talk more about that. Well, I think that, you know, these are demanding jobs and you have to lean in and do what it takes to get the job done. You know, I have a lot of people that are relying on me to make great business decisions for the company, whether it's the stakeholders or it's the associates that are counting on having a job here. So, you know, I'm all in on doing what I need to do to help this company be very, very successful.

48:55David Novak:But then I also know when I need to take a break and take a little bit of time to myself and not get overly burnt out. So, you know, if you look at trying to have perfect balance, you're going to set yourself up for failure. But I know myself well enough to know when I need to take a break and do a recharge. And I have a great team around me now that I can be able to do that. So, but it's just not a perfect balance of 50-50. It just doesn't work that way. What do you see as your unfinished business, both for Ulta and you personally? Yeah, I think the unfinished business for me is just to continue to widen that moat that separates us from others.

49:33David Novak:I think to continue to be a disruptor in beauty. We were one of the original disruptors when Ulta Beauty came to life, you know, 36 years ago of doing beauty a different way than one has ever done before. I still think there's still the next chapter of what that looks like here for us at Ulta Beauty. What's that next generation look like? I believe even leveraging technology and the tools to continue to improve this human interaction, we should be on the leading edge of that. And this is a great category that we shouldn't be following trends. We should be setting the trends. And we are the beauty authority.

50:12David Novak:And the more that we can just continue to lean into that with our brands, I think will continue to set us up for the next chapter of what Ulta Beauty looks like, not just from a U.S. beauty retailer, but from a global beauty retailer. How hard has it been for you to get an international mindset now that you start to go around the world? I would say it's not been overly difficult. I love to travel and I'm a big believer in like I like to walk the country and be feet on the ground. Nothing replaces. You've got to see it. You've got to understand the retail environment. You've got to immerse yourself into it and understand how that consumer is shopping and be authentic to our brand, be authentic to the consumer of the country.

50:59David Novak:I've seen too many US-based companies that take exactly what they do and put it in another country and expect it to be successful just the way it is. I want you to be able to walk into an Alta Beauty store and know it's an Alta Beauty store with some tweaks, with some tweaks that are about the culture of the area that we're in. And that to me has just been really important. And I've traveled a lot. I've traveled literally around the world this last year, but feet on the ground, nothing replicates that. And then also really listening to our partners and not being the big U.S. company that thinks that we know all the answers, but being really open and listening and truly valuing where we are going, I think will continue to set us up for success.

51:43You know, you mentioned earlier, you know, as a female leader, you know, you felt a lot of pressure to know everything, you know, work harder, be there longer. You know, stepping back now with the wisdom that you've gained as you've become the CEO. What advice would you give to women specifically on how they can move up and what the real key is?

52:10David Novak:Yeah, I would say that you have to get out of your own way. I think sometimes as women, we put so much pressure on ourselves that we need to have everything mastered before we can go to the next level. I would say that 80-20 rule applies for you in leadership too. When you feel like you're getting too comfortable and the job's getting easier, that's time for you to ask for more or to share that you want to do something different. And don't wait to master the position that you're in before you give yourself permission to go on to what's next. Push yourself to continue to stay out of your comfort zone and share exactly what it is that you're wanting.

52:47David Novak:And I think too often we sit back and we wait for somebody to say, you're doing a great job. I'm going to tap you on the shoulder. you've mastered it, it's time to go to the next job. I don't think you should do that. I think you should share exactly what it is that you want. Don't wait till you master it and continue to push and advocate for yourself for more. If you don't ask, you won't get. Okay, last question here. What's one piece of advice you'd want to give to anyone who wants to be a better leader? That there's no finish line and that you can learn from absolutely everyone. Don't minimize the impact that you have by listening.

53:23David Novak:My dad told me, God gave you two ears and one mouth for a reason. Listen twice as much as you talk. And, you know, really look to learn from every interaction that you have. Ask questions and really listen to what those answers are. And I think that that can help you be an even better, stronger leader in the future because you can learn from everyone, no matter what level they're at. Well, Keisha, I've learned a lot just listening to you. And I really appreciate you being on this show and congratulations on the success. And I can tell you that those associates are very lucky to have a leader like you who knows the business so well and so caring and knows the importance of staying ahead of competition and being on top of the trends.

54:07David Novak:Thank you so much, David. It was fun to have this conversation.

54:16David Novak:David, I'm on cloud nine after listening to the conversation that you just had with Keisha. I've been vying for her to get on our show for a long time, and I am thrilled that it finally happened. And you wouldn't know this, but before we dive into the debrief, I do want to point out to all of my millennial women listening to this podcast, Keisha talks about how late 90s makeup trends are coming back. And just for this interview, David, you wouldn't know what I'm talking about, but I promise you the women know. I did line my waterline with eyeliner, which is part of the 90s makeup trend that's coming back.

54:47David Novak:So shout out Keisha for being super close to the trends and shout out all the girls who want to bring waterline eyeliner back to the party. By the way, it looks like you have more makeup on than I've ever seen you make have on. And I think that's also coming back if I'm that's she mentioned that as well as as a self-professed makeup guru. And she really knows her business. Well, she loves her business. She loves us loves all the details of it. And I was very impressed by that. I was too, David. I'm excited to get your take on some of the concepts that the two of you just talked about. The first one is this idea of progress over perfection.

55:25David Novak:And it's clear that Keisha is the type of leader who knows a big idea and is ready to run with it before it gets to 100%. And she really runs on this 80-20 rule. She tells her team, if you've got 80 % of the plan, go ahead and move forward and we'll figure out the rest as we go. And so, David, I'm curious from your perspective, like when you hear that, how do you know when you're crossing the line from being bold and just getting your team to go versus being reckless with an idea that's half baked? 80 % means you think you're pretty confident that you're confident that idea. I mean, you're 80 % confident it's going to work.

56:03And yeah, there's some things you got to work out, but you're confident enough as well that that 20 % that needs to get to 100, you'll figure it out only after you get in and get customer reactions and, you know, supply chain issues, whatever they might be. You'll figure those out and you're confident enough of yourself and your team that you're going to be able to figure it out. So I've seen organizations get so paralyzed by the perfect leader. You know, oh, they just keep sending you back, sending you back, sending you back, you know, with one more thing you got to look at, one more thing that's got to be buttoned up.

56:36And, you know, sooner or later, you got to, what do they say, proverbial, get off the pot, okay? and you got to act. And I think 80-20 is a great, great way to think about it.

56:46David Novak:It's so interesting too to hear about the success they've had from using that philosophy. I mean, she talks about them going live on the TikTok shop and that was a huge decision for her. But instead of waiting for it to get to 100%, she just got it to 80 % and they figured out the rest along the way, including her going live herself on TikTok and talking about all of her favorite products from the Ulta beauty world. And she was quite a star on TikTok. She was. She almost worked herself into a full-time job. I love it. David, the next thing I want to talk about is this concept of getting better, not bitter.

57:23David Novak:In the episode, Keisha talks about getting passed up for promotions as she was coming up in her career. And instead of getting bitter, she wanted those situations to make her better. And I just love that line, better, not bitter. And I'm sure, David, that you've seen people respond both ways when they get passed up for a promotion. So what in your perspective, what in your opinion separates the ones who get better versus those who get bitter? I think the first thing they do is they crush it where they're at. They know that they've got to do their job extremely well before they can get the next job.

57:59Okay. If they get passed over, they are very reflective. They're self-reflective. They have high self-awareness and they learn what it was that they missed, missed out on having or demonstrating to get that next job. And then they go after it. So let's say, you know, people didn't think I have enough financial background to get the next job. They go get the financial background. They do enough to make sure that that's not going to be something that's going to derail them. And it's something that can propel them because they will at least check the box. So I think self-awareness is really the key, but it's also attitude.

58:40Better not bitter. That's an attitudinal thing. Now, the other thing is, it's really great here, is that she loves her company. She didn't want to go anywhere else. She loved the company. She loved the culture. They were treating her well. She just didn't get the job. So she didn't get bitter. She said, I'm going to get better. And, you know, I think she'd still be there if she wasn't the CEO, but she'd still be working on what it would take to become the CEO. But she's been there for almost a decade and she's had tremendous results. So she certainly is well qualified to get it done.

59:12David Novak:That reminds me of one of the insights that I have taken with me from our episode with Scott Hamilton, when he talks about failure being 100 % information. And not that not getting a promotion is failure, but if you even frame those situations where you get passed up on a promotion or something like that as 100 % information, it does force you to tune your attention inward and really use that as a reflective moment versus just blaming other people. And take that opportunity, great point, Kulik, take that opportunity to get the information, to get the feedback that you need to grow forward. So I remember I had something similar like that when I was at PepsiCo.

59:50Wayne Calloway, the chairman of PepsiCo, thought I was a really good marketing guy. He told me that I was a really good marketing guy, but he didn't see me as a division president. And I realized that what I had to do with him was to demonstrate that I could really get into the operations, the nitty gritty, the processes that take, you know, the P &L, how to make money. And that's exactly what I did. And then I got promoted to be president. But I used being passed over, OK, as information. I remember when somebody got a division president job, I had so many people call me and say, how do you feel?

1:00:21What do you think about that? And that's when I knew I was going to become president because at least people were starting to see me that way. But I did need to demonstrate that I could really do operations as well as marketing to become a division president. And I knew it because I got that information. And I'll tell you what, Keisha was very good at that as well.

1:00:40David Novak:It comes through clear as day during your conversation that she looks at any sort of setback as 100 % information and reflects deeply enough to figure out how to course correct and get to where she wants to be. Which, David, brings me to the final concept that I just really, really loved. It was very moving for me to hear her talk about it. And it's this kind of seminal moment in her life. And it's when, you know, she's 20 years old, she's a single mom, and she's living in government housing. And she talks in the conversation about a moment where she's looking in the mirror and she kind of just has this come to Jesus moment and realizes that the only person that's going to change her situation is the person that she's looking at in the mirror.

1:01:20David Novak:And from then on, her life really changed. And I want David, you to break that down. When you kind of see where Keisha is now and know that that's where she comes from, what do you pinpoint as the real defining characteristic that led her to where she is? She is a strong believer, although she doesn't necessarily espouse it in this podcast. But it seems to me she really believes a lot in free will. And that she has the free will to choose, you know, how she's going to react to something. And she decided that she wasn't going to be a victim. You know, the worst thing that I see many times with leaders and people who are in disadvantaged situations is they develop a severe case of victimitis.

1:02:04They come up with all the reasons why they can't do this. They're almost, they almost in their own life, they become Eeyores. Okay. And yeah, this thing, you know, make no mistake. Some people do have tougher backgrounds and it is a lot harder for a lot of people. So I'm not minimizing that, but what you really have to admire, and there are so many stories of so many people who've done it is they have that mirror moment where they look in the mirror and they take accountability for, for getting out of the situation that they're in, because they know that no one else can do it, but them. And that's what she did.

1:02:40And the other thing is, is she never, ever forgot where she came from. Okay. And she learned from her upbringing. I think that's why she has such an empathy for the frontline. She started out as an hourly worker and you know and she remembered what it was like to be at the beginning you know and making eight dollars an hour she's never forgotten that and she's the first one to tell you how much she learns from by going out and talking the front line and because she she was the cashier you know she was a she was a store manager she was you know she she knows the power of being closest to the customer and learning from people who are closest to the customers but she's just a really good leader and I just loved her passion for her company and I loved her passion for her industry.

1:03:30And I'm gonna make sure that I buy some of that lip gloss and give it to some women I know who might really enjoy it.

1:03:39David Novak:It's always wonderful when your man has a backup set of lip gloss or chapstick. I know, I'm trying to remember that and I don't always have it. Well, David, for our listeners, as we wrap up this debrief, what's the one thing that you really want listeners to take away from this conversation and apply to their life? Three things in particular that we hit on here. Progress over perfection. Be better, not bitter. And, you know, take advantage of those mere moments and turn yourself into something better. Very, very powerful. I love it. Well, David, thank you so much for another excellent episode of How Leaders Lead.

1:04:19David Novak:And thank you to Keisha Steelman for joining us on this podcast. And of course, thank you to our listeners. Stay tuned for another episode of How Leaders Lead, and we will see you next Thursday.