#296: Landon Donovan, US Soccer Legend – Separate who you are from what you do

22:30David Novak:So they sat there and consoled me. I went home and I was quite depressed for a couple weeks. And I was lying in bed one morning and I was thinking about that moment and how special it was that those three guys who I knew really well came in and consoled me in that moment. And then I was thinking it's even more special because they had just found out they made the World Cup team. So this is a, I mean, this is a massive moment in their life of joy and happiness. And in that moment, they came over and sat with me. And I had already played in three World Cups. I had been the star and the best player and the captain and the leader and all these things.

23:03David Novak:But they still came over to console me because they knew how much it meant to me. But then I was thinking about Kyle. That was Kyle Beckerman's first World Cup. So this was literally, David, the happiest moment of his career and probably one of the happiest moments of his life. And within minutes, he was coming over to console someone who had been to multiple World Cups and been the star and the leader and all those things. And it was an amazing realization. And then what really hit me was how many times when I had made a team and someone else hadn't, had I gone over and put my arm around them?

23:39David Novak:And I hadn't. I hadn't. Not like that. And it really blew me away because Kyle taught me so much about compassion. And that was a big form of leadership. and it changed my life because I just said, I cannot go through life now so wrapped up in my own success and worrying about that I'm not even taking a moment to put my arm around someone else who didn't make the team. And honestly, I don't say this lightly, learning that lesson in compassion and leadership was way, way, way more valuable than going to another World Cup because I'll carry that with me the rest of my life. Yeah, that's an amazing story.

24:23Thanks for sharing that. And I can't wait to dig more into the rest of your career and how you lead. But first, I want to take you back. What's the story, Landon, from your childhood that shaped the kind of leader you are today?

24:38David Novak:I don't know if it's a specific story, but my relationship, or lack thereof, in the early days with my father has really, really impacted my life. So my dad wasn't around a lot when we were young. and when we saw him, it was amazing, but he just wouldn't show up when he was supposed to have custody on some weekends. He just wouldn't show up, so my mom would want to drop us off and have some freedom for the weekend, and my dad just wouldn't show up. So at 20 years old, this had been, obviously, this anger and disappointment my father had been bubbling over my whole childhood, but I never said it to him, and I never spoke it to him.

25:23At 20, as I sort of became a man, we had a massive falling out and

25:29David Novak:got into a massive fight. And I told him, don't ever call me again. Don't talk to me again. You caused me so much pain in my childhood. I don't want to see you ever again. And five years later, after going through therapy, I had a moment in therapy where I forgave my dad. and I genuinely forgave him and I let go of all the animus and all the venom and all the hatred and it had nothing to do with him. It was all about me forgiving him. And as part of that, I wanted to go see if there was going to ever be any chance to have a relationship with him. So he was living in Nashville. So I sent him an email and I said, I'd love to come see you.

26:15David Novak:I know it's been five years since we connected, but I'd love to come see you and talk. And he said, okay, I would love that. So we went and it wasn't perfect, but I told him I forgave him. He finally apologized, which was all my sister and I ever wanted was an apology from him. We all make mistakes, but I just wanted him to say, I'm sorry for what I did. And he did. And from that day on, we started to build a relationship. And so to answer your question, it's not like a specific moment or story, but the fact that I was able to forgive him, the fact that he then over time really changed. He really changed the way he was and became an incredible grandparent.

27:04David Novak:Incredible. An incredible parent. You know, I'll never get the years back that we didn't have, but he became an incredible parent. And he passed away in December. So five months ago now. And I was so grateful. Obviously, there was intense sadness. But I was so grateful at his deathbed that I had a relationship with him. Because I see so many people and many people, actually, this has become a big theme of people. When they read this story in the book, they will say to me, hey, I decided to reach out to my dad. And it really blows me away because it shows a lot of courage that people are willing to do that.

27:47But I'm so glad because the alternative of not having had any relationship and he passed away, that would have destroyed me.

27:55David Novak:Honestly, that would have destroyed me. And I was just grateful that I had 10 or 15 years with him. That's great. You know, and you also, I'm sure as a leader there, you learned a lot about the importance of having productive conflict. Absolutely right. You know, what advice do you have in that aspect of leadership? Well, because of the way I grew up, David, I completely avoided conflict as much as possible. And when you're a leader, you can avoid conflict. If you avoid conflict, you're going to struggle big time. And in the soccer world, I don't know how it compares to the corporate world, but in the soccer world or in the sports world, it can be a massive problem.

28:40David Novak:And I see most coaches that fail will not address conflict and or address issues just head on, right? And so that taught me, I did coach for a little bit here in San Diego. When you're telling a player something they don't want to hear, there is very much an art to it. And you have to be, my opinion is to be compassionate with it, but very direct. and I learned with my dad that like just being direct and telling him you hurt me, you hurt my sister, you were not good to us and laying it out there. He was able to take it and accept it and deal with it and then move on, gave me confidence to then do that in my, in my soccer life as well.

29:28And, and it's a generational thing a little bit,

29:31David Novak:but we soccer players now, and I speaking about our U S national team, there's almost no, there's almost no confrontation. Like they don't confront each other on anything. They'll be losing 5-0 and they're just sort of walking around the field, like going on for normal. And I'd be like, I'd be killing people if we were losing 5-0 for not doing their job. Right. And so that is, that is really important if you want to succeed in sports, because there's no time to say, you know, let's figure it out later. And we'll talk. No, the game's happening. It's the 40th minute. You're losing 3-0. You better figure it out.

30:03I've always think on conflict is so critical that you have to almost as a leader sniff out conflict, be a minor of conflict, you know, you know, look for it on your team and, and make sure that it gets served. Do you have a, do you have a story where, where you, you did that and it turned things around?

30:20David Novak:You're almost, um, trying to create it, right? Yeah. And so the, um, the only one that comes to mind is when I was, when I was coaching here in San Diego, things were going a little too well with our team where we were playing well, things were going well, but you could see complacency starting to creep into the group. But when you're doing well, you can't just all of a sudden just blow them up and rip them apart in a locker room when you win 3-0, right? It's hard to like... So we were someone I really, really admire as a leader was Nate Miller, who was our assistant coach at the time and became the head coach and has gone on to great things.

31:08David Novak:And he would always say the same thing you just said, David. And I didn't know it till I met him and say like, we need to create some sort of conflict. Like we need to find some conflict. We need something now to get these guys' attention. And we got a great gift. one of our best players was he was playing out of position for him and he wasn't happy about it, but the team was doing well and we were winning. And so I would say to him, hey, I know you're frustrated by this, but we're winning and we're doing well. So we had a training session and we watched it back after and we allowed the team this player was on allowed a goal and he just walked back and wasn't defending, right?

31:54David Novak:And so I was like, perfect. We have a moment where we can go after one of our best players in front of the team and say, this is unacceptable. So we're showing the video and I call him out in the video and I say, hey, I don't care if you're playing goalie or right back or strike or whatever. If you defend like this, we're never going to get where we want to get to. So you can be mad about you not playing your best position or whatever, but it doesn't matter where you play if you defend like this. And it was a little intense, but he gave us a great gift because he reacted very negatively in front of the group and really came after me a little bit.

32:36David Novak:But I was prepared for it. So I was able then to go back at him. And after the meeting, he walked up and this was the best part. And he said, hey, I don't think this is the right place for me. I want to get traded. And I said, okay, well, we'll try to trade you. But if that can't happen, we're willing also to just cut you and you can go find a new team too. And he was like, fine, done. So I went to my owner and I said, hey, and they weren't making it in the second division in American soccer. They're not making huge money, but it might've been like a$50 ,000 deal to cut his contract. And I said to Aaron, I said, are we willing to eat this money?

33:15David Novak:It will help the group immensely because he's been a negative impact for a little while here. I know he's a good player, but he's hurting our culture. And the owner said, do it. If you need to do it, do it. So I went back to him and I said, okay, we're done. We're going to cut your contract and you can go on your way. And he said, fine. He came back, David, the next morning and he said, I thought about it and I really think I made a mistake. I don't think I really want to be here. And I said, look, I'm sorry, but it's not going to happen. We already made the decision. And that decision and what it did for the group was massive.

33:50David Novak:Because if you're willing to cut one of your best players because they're not doing what they should be doing, the rest of the group pays attention, right? And I'm sure you've dealt with situations like that many times, but it was the best gift we could have gotten. Yeah. You know, when you call out the star and you take out a star, you show that your culture really matters a lot more in the end, because you know the culture is going to make you win. You know, you can't win without a great, great culture. And you've played on elite teams. What would you define the three greatest characteristics of the best teams you've been on from a culture standpoint?

34:24David Novak:It has always started from the top, the leadership from the top. So the Galaxy are owned by a gentleman named Phil Anschutz. very quiet. You would rarely see him. But the day-to-day handling was run at one point by Tim Laiwiki and now by a man named Dan Beckerman. And both of them very different and distinct in the way they go about their business, but very supportive and provide all the resources necessary to be successful. So that started. Then the three characteristics, when I would say accountability, for sure. And when the accountability comes from the coach, teams can be good. When the accountability comes from the players, teams are great.

35:15David Novak:And so when you're running Yum! Brands, it's great if you're holding people accountable. But if everybody under you is also hold and every employee is holding each other accountable, that's where real teams are made. We had a rookie on our team, a center back named Omar Gonzalez. And he was a rookie this year, whatever he came in, 2010 or 11. 2011, I think. And we signed a player named Robbie Keane, who was a top 15 goal scorer ever in the English Premier League, right? And absolute superstar player. Everybody in the soccer world knows him like a big deal. Omar Gonzalez one day in training ripped apart Robbie Keane for not defending.

35:57David Novak:And we all kind of stopped and we were like, this rookie ripping apart Robbie Keane for not defending. And Robbie went back at him and MF'd him and told him, don't you talk to me like da, da, da, da, da. And Omar's like, well, then you need to defend and I'm sick of you not. And we all kind of sat there like, oh my God, How's this going to finish up? In the end, the rest of the session, guess what Robbie Keane did? He defended. And afterwards, they made amends and they were great friends and they moved on. But that was a massive moment where I was like, wow. I mean, he showed a great... So anyway, so accountability key, especially from the team and the leaders.

36:38David Novak:It's one thing from the coaches, but from the team, that's when teams can be great. This ties into it, but that's what makes good culture too. Because in the end, yes, we're all friends and we hang out, but we're there to win. We want to win. That is the goal. And what we had that was great in my best teams was when the leaders care as much about the 26th or 27th guy on the team as they do the best guy, that's what makes teams great. Another great story, in 2014, my final MLS season, we had a player on the team named Raul Mendiola. And he was, if we had a roster of 30, he was probably the 28th or 29th guy on the roster.

37:24David Novak:He might have played a few hundred minutes all season. I will never forget when I watched back the video of us winning the championship in 2014, the first guy sprinting on the field celebrating was Raul Mendiola. And he played probably the fewest minutes of anybody on the team. So you knew the culture was right because he cared just as much as everyone else. So accountability, culture. Well, great teams have to have great players too. I mean, that is the reality. It's true. It's true. I mean, you can get by during a regular season, you know, picking up some wins. When you get to like the real stuff, you have to have great players too.

38:03David Novak:That is the reality. Absolutely. Absolutely. And, you know, speaking of great players, and you mentioned a great team that you run, the LA Galaxy and that great leadership. You had a great culture there. After you signed with LA, with the Galaxy, as I understand it, David Beckham joined the team from Real Madrid. And you handed him the captain's armband. You know, take me through that decision. Why did you do that? I mean, obviously Beckham was, you know, a global star, but, you know, what was it that made you do that? Well, you know how when you see coaches and an organization mutually part ways, but, you know, the coach got fired.

38:49David Novak:So I handed him the armband, but I was kind of pushed to hand him the armband. So I'll tell you the story. So when he got there, about a week after he got there, the GM came to me and said, hey, Landon, I think it would really help the team if David was the captain. And I was like, okay, but he's been here a week. He doesn't even know everyone's name. And he said, well, just think about it. So he came back a few days later and he said, you know, I think it'd be really great if David was the captain. I said, okay, something's going on here. A few days later, the coach called me in the office and they said, you know, I think it would really help us all and help the team if David was the captain.

39:30David Novak:So I remember talking to my agent for a long time. And at that point, it puts me in a really tough situation, right? Because this is David Beckham. This is not a normal soccer player. This is at that point, he was probably a top five most famous person in the world. Honestly. I mean, everybody knew his name across the globe. And so I was thinking, what am I going to do here, right? So if you hold on to it, now you're the jerk who is creating this tension and animosity. Maybe it's never made public, but it's not going to help. Or you can say, look, and this is what I learned. This is also another leadership lesson.

40:13David Novak:Whether you're wearing an armband around your arm or not doesn't determine if you're the captain. I mean, I played with a lot of guys who wore the armband who were not the leader on the team. And that, you know, for whatever reason, they were given the armband. but that did not make them the top leader on the team. And so in the end, I said, look, it is what it is. It's not going to change the way I play. It's not going to change the way I do things. If it makes David feel better, if it makes the club feel better, it's fine. And so, again, we didn't mutually part ways. I was fired, but I did give him the uphand in the end.

40:52And, you know, speaking of productive conflict, I've read where you felt that you didn't think Beckham was all in on the team. And it wasn't as committed to the team as you were and other people were. You know, how do you deal with that as a leader? Not well. What did you do? Not well?

41:10David Novak:So I did feel that way. And the mistake I made was I aired it publicly. and there was a gentleman named Grant Wall who was writing a book about the whole process with David and I would speak to him often and a couple times I just sort of let loose and said things I should not have said publicly about you know David I didn't feel like he was caring enough about the team like he had come here and he wasn't helping us get out of a bad situation we were a really bad team at the time. And I made some bad comments. And this to your earlier point about, about conflict and confronting. So this book gets released.

41:53David Novak:And the day it gets released, of course, there are all these blurbs about, you know, Landon Donovan says, David's a bad teammate and a bad leader and all these things. So you can imagine how awkward that is, right, for all of us. So the next morning, or so that night, Bruce Arena, our coach, texts us both and says, hey guys, I want to meet with you guys in the morning. And I'm like, oh shit, here we go. So in the morning, we walk into his office and Bruce starts speaking to us for a few seconds. And I said, Bruce, let me stop you. I said, David, I'm really sorry. Like me saying these things publicly was so unprofessional.

42:36And I feel the way I feel.

42:39David Novak:What I said, I do feel. But I should have just told you to your face. And we could have gotten through it, I'm sure. And this told me everything I needed to know and learn about David in that moment. He could have buried me, right? I'm a nobody in his world. And he could have gone out publicly and absolutely just buried me. And in that moment, he said, Landon, I get it. I understand this has been like a tough time for all of us and frustrating. I didn't like that you said those things publicly. We can deal with that part. It's fine. But we both want the same thing. We both want to win. We both want to be successful.

43:21David Novak:We're both frustrated by what's going on here. So I'm fine. Like we will put this behind us and let's go be successful together. And two of the next three years, we won the championship together. And I just, I gained so much respect for him that day. Fantastic. And, you know, I gained a lot of respect for you when you were talking about when you didn't make the World Cup. And you had these three players come in that did. They took the time to be compassionate and caring to you. And when you said that meant more to you than if you'd have been on the World Cup team as you look back at it. Because it's a memory that you'll always have.

44:02And you learn so much from it. And, you know, it brings me to this next question here. You know, a lot of people watching this have success or are extremely successful. And it's easy to get caught up with what you do. You know, like I'm a world-class football player, you know, et cetera, et cetera. But how do you define yourself today as a person? I mean, how do you define yourself?

44:28David Novak:I always would get frustrated when people come up to me and they look and they go, wait, you're that soccer player. And in my head, I'm like, no, I'm not a soccer player. I'm Landon. I'm me. But to them, that's what I am. So what I take pride in is that I have given most of my life and certainly my adult life to making this sport better in our country and growing the sport. And it's been a huge passion of mine. There's almost no part of the sport I have not touched or been a part of in some way. But the irony is that is not me or what to find. Now, unless I'm playing with my kids, I don't touch a soccer ball.

45:18David Novak:I don't watch a ton of soccer. I do because I have a podcast. So I have to keep up on it and stay informed and all that. But it's not a massive part of my life. Now my life is my kids, my wife, my family, golf, and actually relaxing and enjoying not having to do things. Now, the one caveat to that is the next part and probably the rest of my life, I will be dedicating to fixing youth soccer in this country because it's a real, real mess. And that is the part I most, I will have a bigger impact doing that than anything I did on a field. I have no question about that. Yeah. And I'm going to come back to that in just a minute, but I got to ask you my Ted Lasso question.

46:10I understand you're an investor and a strategic advisor to Lincoln City Football Club in England, and you just got promoted for the first time since 1961. And you have a small budget and a lot of the other teams. What's the lesson for any leader who's trying to win without having the biggest checkbook? You know, because Ted Lasso was kind of dealing with that same issue.

46:36David Novak:what Lincoln City has done well, they spent the 17th most out of 24 teams and finished first by over 10 points over the second place team. They're 10 % better than the second place team. They had 100 points, which is, if you have 100 points in any soccer season, it's almost a miracle. And they spent 17th most out of 24 teams. So 16 teams spent more than they did. And in some cases, significantly more. What Lincoln City has done well, and this is, I've learned so much about this from Nate Miller, who I talked to you about before, is continuity. Majority of the roster together for multiple years now.

47:20David Novak:In that league in particular, and now in many leagues and many sports, players are moving all the time. They sign for two years here and then they go there. They're a free agency there. They get traded here. It's becoming more and more rare that players stay in one place for a long time. So Lincoln City over the last two or three years has kept the same core group of players, same coach, the same technical director, the same CEO, the same chairman, and had... There is very clear expectations. Nobody was expecting to win the league or to get promoted. but the expectations that are not goal oriented are very clear and everyone understands it.

48:05And that continuity has been their superpower this year. Wow. You know, it's in my study of great companies, they have continuity around people and process and that always leads to great results. And Landon, this has been so much fun. I want to have some more with my lightning round of questions. Are you ready for this? The three words that best describe you.

48:26David Novak:Compassionate. Generous. intense. If you could be one person for a day besides yourself, who would it be? Okay. How about the chairman of Augusta? Cause then I can play Augusta. What's your biggest pet peeve? People who, my favorite, probably my favorite quote that I live by is how you do anything is how you do everything. And people who do things without caring or paying attention or attention to detail drive me crazy. Who would play you in a movie? Matthew McConaughey. The sexiest man alive, man. You've got to really, you know. I've got to shoot for the stars, man. There you go. The best part of being a twin?

49:07David Novak:That she could care less about Landon, the soccer player, and she keeps me honest and humble. Your best foreign language? Spanish. I speak some German too, but Spanish. Okay, Messi just won his first MLS Cup. You won six. how does it feel that you know that you've got a leg up on Messi? Well, I just think I'm a much better player than he is. So if your life depended on the goal, who from the current players that you watch, would you want to take the penalty shot? Christian Pulisic, no question. What's something you've been curious about lately that has nothing to do with work or anything that is related to the business side of your life?

49:58David Novak:New obscure music that I wasn't aware of earlier or even like old songs or things that I didn't know about. What's the one thing you do just for you? Golf. Besides your family and friends, what's your most prized possession? Well, it would be things that were my father's. That's family, I know, but. But if I turned on the radio in your car, what would I hear? Well, you might have heard a podcast. You might have heard the Howard Stern Show. Or I think there was a Bruno Mars song last night when we went to dinner on. What's something about you that few people would know? That I played the violin when I was young.

50:42What's one of your daily rituals, something that you never miss? Flossing my teeth.

50:48David Novak:We're out of the lightning round. I love it. You know, now you and your wife Hannah have three kids. How do you think about leading at home, Landon? The word that I try to live by is intentionality. I think with kids, it's very easy to get, you just get into a process and a rut and you're just trying to solve problems all day. And I'm trying to be, I'm not great at this yet, but I'm trying to be intentional with what I say, what I do, how I treat them all the time. It's very difficult. You know, as a dad, you were talking earlier about just youth sports and that soccer in particular is really messed up.

51:29What is it that's messed up? And then if you're going to change the world, what are you going to do to make it better?

51:35David Novak:Yeah, there are a lot of pieces, but I'll just I'll try to be brief with it. The culture around youth sports is really toxic. So if you go to a youth soccer game, the amount of talking, yelling, berating, coaching going on on the sidelines is destroying our kids' experience, right? I see so many kids that are so anxious to do the wrong thing because the coach or the parent is yelling at them throughout the game that it drives me crazy. So that's one. So that culture of lack of awareness for a parent to just shut up on the sideline and just let their kid play is alarming to me. So that's one. Two, the landscape in youth soccer, I can't speak for all sports, but the landscape in youth soccer has been built around success means winning and for the clubs, making money.

52:37David Novak:That is what success is for the clubs. That does not help kids love soccer more. And that does not help kids develop into better soccer players. Those two can't happen together. If all you're cared about is winning, I'll give you an example. I was watching a game the other day. These are six-year-old girls. from the kickoff, the other team scores a goal, so we get the kickoff, right? From the kickoff, they're having one of our players run up and try to kick it and shoot and score on the goal. What is that teaching a kid about soccer? Nothing. You're just trying to kick it as hard as you can. How does that make you a better?

53:18David Novak:Because they're trying to score a goal off the kickoff. It just kind of blew my mind. That doesn't help you become a better soccer player, right? So So that incentive structure has to change where the clubs are incentivized by developing the players and having the kids love soccer. And once you flip the incentive structure, how do you reward clubs for doing that well? Versus rewarding clubs for winning soccer games when these kids are seven years old. That means nothing in the grand. I can't tell you one soccer game I won as a youth player, David. Not one. Not one. It doesn't matter. You had good coaches, I'm sure, right?

53:55You probably remember that.

53:56David Novak:You know, whatever. But even if I didn't, I don't remember any of these games. And I made it to the very top, right? I don't remember the score of any game. Good luck in bringing some sense to the sport. I'm going to need luck. I know that. I think that would be great. Last question here, Landon. What's one piece of advice you'd give to anyone who wants to be a better leader? You can learn a lot from other people. In the end, to me, the number one quality of a great leader is authenticity. There are so many ways to lead. So many different, I see it. I saw it through coaches my whole career. Many different ways, different strategies, different approaches.

54:34But as long as they were authentic to themselves, that would come through to the group and you can be successful. Well, thank you much, Landon, for this great, great conversation. You know, I love the insights that you have and the way how you lead. And, you know, I look forward to teeing it up with you someplace special one of these days.

54:56David Novak:I can't wait. Thanks for having me, David.

55:04David Novak:David, I am fired up about the World Cup. You're fired up about everything, Kula. But I am, too. I think it's great. I actually went to the World Cup when it was held in Italy. and saw the semifinal match in Naples and then the final match in Rome and was lucky enough, believe it or not, on Saturday night as the aftermath to see the first three tenors concert, okay? Wow. You know, in Rome at Sidovecchia, and it was just amazing. But the whole experience was great. People just absolutely go bonkers over football and the enthusiasm and the crowds and the spirit was just incredible to see. And I'm really looking forward to this year's World Cup as well.

55:53David Novak:I am too. It really feels like one of those moments where the entire world rallies together around one thing. I mean, obviously everyone's cheering for their team, but it's similar to the Olympics in that it just brings like the heart of the human spirit together in a way that's so heartwarming. So even if you're not a soccer fan, I hope you two are excited to see what plays out in this year's World Cup. And we have an excellent guest to kick it off with Landon Donovan. Yeah, and you're so right. I mean, football or soccer is global, just like the Olympics. And those two events are really what brings the world together.

56:35And you're right. We have fantastic guests in Landon Donovan, you know, one of the most renowned, perhaps the renowned football player for the United States in the World Cup.

56:50David Novak:Well, I'm excited, David, to debrief this conversation that you had with Landon. Before we do, though, I just have to shout out Landon Donovan saying that he's simply a better soccer player than Messi. I thought that was so epic. He's still so confident in his elite ability to just manhandle people on the soccer field. So shout out Landon Donovan for freaking owning that. I really loved that part. Oh, that's great. Well, he obviously doesn't lack for confidence. Well, David, this first theme that I want to chat with you about is this idea that you are not your job. A huge point of growth for Landon was learning to separate who he is as a soccer player from who he is as a person.

57:30David Novak:You know, he talks about getting really depressed when he started playing badly. And then he gets cut from the World Cup team and spirals into this deep depression because he couldn't separate those two, who he was on the soccer field and who he was as a human being. And I imagine that for a lot of leaders listening, that can be hard to do. What's your experience with this? I mean, how do you separate who you are from what you do? You know, I've seen so many people retire from their jobs and just waste away because they don't really have a bigger definition for what their life is all about. And, you know, to me, you know, that's why you have to have your why.

58:11That's why you have to have your purpose. That's why you have something. You have to know why you're really put on this world and the difference that you can truly make. And, you know, I think, you know, Landon learned that when he didn't make the World Cup team And he spiraled and he had to realize that he he was much more than just a football player. And, you know, for me, I was fortunate enough to listen to this leader, Jamie Winship, who who's an expert on the importance of building personal identity. And as I listened to him and he listened to me, he came up to me and says, well, I hope you know what your identity is.

58:56And I said, well, yeah, it is definitely way beyond just being a former CEO and way beyond just, you know, being a podcast host and someone who focuses on leadership. And he said, well, what is it? And I said, well, I think I've always focused on lifting people up, you know, really doing everything I can to recognize people for their worth, appreciate them for what they've done, and, you know, acknowledge them for being the person that they are. My family foundation is called Lift Alive Foundation. I mean, that's kind of how I see my identity as someone that, you know, makes people feel better about themselves and help them get better at what they do.

59:43It's one of the reasons why I do this podcast. Now, at the same time, I think it's really important for you to really have an authenticity that you bring to work every day because people only trust you if you are who you are. You know, in my leadership program, I always said, you got to be like Popeye. I am who I am. I'm Popeye the Sailor Man, you know, because and he knew he was. And, you know, I think we all have to really look towards that and then bring that bring that to work, because you can't be anybody other than who you are. And when you try to be somebody that you're not, people see it.

1:00:22You're a phony. People don't trust you. People won't believe in you. So you really got to be who you are. And the way how you figure that out is you got to have high self-awareness. First of all, you got to think about all the things that people commend you on, talk to you about that really makes you you. And then you also need to understand how other people see you by directly going to them and ask them how they see you. But I think if you, when you're coming up in your career, you just kind of keep building your data points that will ultimately emerge that you'll get so comfortable in being who you are, that you're comfortable in your skin.

1:01:04And that's what I think people really find to be inspiring. It takes some people a lot longer than others. But you've got to realize that you've got to have that authenticity to be the kind of leader that you really need to be. and you got to be who you are and nobody else. Yeah.

1:01:22David Novak:And David, it's so evident in the great leaders like Landon, doing that exercise of figuring out your authentic leadership style is not just for yourself. And it's not just to increase your own self-awareness. It actually does much more in serving the people that you lead. I mean, Landon talks about how when he became captain one time, he tried to be a leader and just told everybody what to do. And that wasn't authentic to him. And so as a result, his performance suffered and his team's performance suffered. And it wasn't until he re-centered on what type of leader he really was, which is being an elite soccer player and leading by the way he played, that things really started to click for their team.

1:02:02David Novak:So it hinders your ability not only to know yourself, but to actually engage with others in a meaningful way when you don't know what that authentic style is. Yeah, I think his identity is basically to perform through action. and to serve others by what you do, not by what you say. And that travels way beyond being a football player. And my good friend, Tim Schur, who leads this podcast for us, he wrote a book called The Secret Society of Success and how there were so many successful people who were other-directed and focused on other people. and that led to true happiness and led to true meaning in their lives.

1:02:51And I think that's what Landon's done and that's where he's at right now. And that's why he wants to improve, you know, Little League soccer, youth soccer. He wants to make a difference. And, you know, I love that. And he's going to do that by what he does, not by what he says.

1:03:08David Novak:Another thing that came up a lot in this conversation, David, is this idea of continuity. And both you and Landon talk about the importance of continuity and building culture and achieving success as a team. What are some things that leaders can do to bring more continuity to their business? I mean, how do you go about establishing that? Well, let me tell you, continuity is really important to the success of any business. When I studied the best companies in the world, all the best companies in the world have continuity in both people and process. They have continuity in people. People stay in that company for a long time because they want to be there.

1:03:44They want to contribute to it. They feel like they can really make a difference and they're valued. And that leads to continuity that's really important. You know, Landon talks about, you know, Lincoln City Football Club, which he's a part owner in. They spent the 17th most of any team in the league, but they finished first. And the reason why he said they did is they had a core group of players and coaches that had been together for a long period of time. And that continuity pays off. So continuity in people is really important. The other thing is when you have continuity in people, you usually have continuity in process.

1:04:21Because those people have been around for a while, then that means they have processes that they know work and they continually improve those processes instead of starting from scratch each year, developing a new process. I remember being a part of PepsiCo. We had so many management changes at our divisions. Every time someone new went in, they developed their new processes. And so people had to stop doing what they were doing last year and adopt the new processes that were being implemented. And that stop and start and stop and start, that slows you down. But when you can really identify what's really important in your business and continually, you know, have continuity in executing those same processes and getting better and better, you have what becomes the compound effect.

1:05:12The compound effect of just getting better and better at what you do every single day. And then sooner or later, you wake up and you go, holy cow, look how much better we are.

1:05:20David Novak:I love that, David, continuity and people and processes. It's so simple yet, you know, a lot of people just don't get it right. Yeah. And it's why the coaches that have been around for a long time do so well. right you know people know what they expect people know what the processes are and their players just keep getting better better and executing the plays that they know work i mean it reminds it reminds me of the theme that you always say dynasty like performance you can't get there without that continuity yeah well read about nick saban you know i'd love to get on the podcast someday you know trust me i have read about that you are okay i know you love love nick Samen.

1:05:55He's the king of process. And his processes didn't change. They got better. He evolved them. But the core process has never changed. And he's the greatest college football coach of all time.

1:06:09David Novak:Yes, he absolutely is. Thank you for that shout out. I feel very seen. David, the last theme that I want to break down with you from this discussion with Landon Donovan is this idea of conflict. And you two talk about, I mean, just frankly, leaders cannot avoid conflict. And when they do avoid conflict, bad things happen. One of my favorite stories that Landon tells in the episode is about when he really learned how to deal with conflict, when David Beckham joined his team. Talk about what stood out to you from that story. Yeah, well, you know, what Landon talks about is the fact that, you know, he talked to the media and he said all these things about David Beckham that basically said that he really wasn't a great teammate.

1:06:54And basically, David Beckham reads that and hears it from the media, not from Landon. And I think they get together and they have a meeting and the coach brings them together and Landon realizes that he should have told them what he really thought into his face. and, you know, David Beckham basically forgave them and they realized they had more in common than not. And then they go on to win a couple of championships together. But that conflict happened in the wrong way. You don't want to go and tell other people what you think about a person. You want to tell that person what the issue is you have with that person.

1:07:36You do it directly and you have productive conflict that gets you to a better place. And I think this is a great example where, you know, David Beckham showed a lot of class by basically forgiving Landon. And then Landon has shown a lot of class by telling that story over and over because he realized that you need to handle conflict directly. And that wasn't the kind of person he wanted to be, wasn't the kind of leader that he wanted to be. And, you know, don't you just hate it when you hear that somebody said some bad things about you that they don't have enough courage to come and tell you? to your face, you know, what they're thinking.

1:08:15You know, when that happens, man, usually for me, I write them off. And I give Beckham a lot of credit for not writing off Landon. And I give Landon and Beckham credit for finding a way to win together.

1:08:30David Novak:It's a pretty great story. I love that one that he shares. David, as we wrap this episode today, what do you want people listening to really be thinking about as they go into this week and as they go into enjoying the World Cup over the next few weeks? You know, number one, work hard on finding your identity that you want to bring to work every day. What kind of leader do you want to be? And then be consistent with that because when you're consistent with that, people will trust you and they will follow you. And then also know that, hey, you're so much bigger than your work. You're a person that was put on this world to make a difference and really try to figure out what your identity is.

1:09:09And that identity can really drive you and help you on a sustainable basis. You know, when you move to the next job or you move out of a job and you move into nonprofit work or you move into, you know, helping other people, you know, you have an identity that gives you a purpose and a why that opens up all kinds of doors for you. I can tell you it certainly has for me. You know, being a person who really sees myself as someone who lifts other people up through recognition, it has opened up so many doors for me. It's amazing. And it's a very joyful thing, you know, to be able to recognize others.

1:09:51So, you know, I think, number one, you know, know yourself at work and then know what your real identity is. I think that's important. Number two, as a leader, anything you can do to drive continuity on your team, provided that the team has great talent and has the capability, you want those people to stay for as long as they can and have continuity and process, I guarantee you it will pay off for you in spades. It pays off for every great leader, every great company, every great team. and last but not least you know we all have issues you know at times with people you know handle those issues clearly and directly and you know what happens a lot of times some people come back to you and they'll tell you something that you didn't know and you end up in a better place but you can't do that if you just sit in your room or go to bed at night and just stew on it and let it get to you.

1:10:53You got to get it out on the table with that person and find the win-win. And I think nine times out of 10, you can do it.

1:11:01David Novak:Well, David, thanks again for an excellent edition of How Leaders Lead. Thanks, Leanna Donovan, for spending some time on our show. And thank you, as always, to our listeners for tuning in. Enjoy the World Cup, and we will see you soon.