#298: Joe Manchin, Former Governor and Senator, West Virginia – How to find common ground

21:32David Novak:So you learned from him that you can really lose your roots if you're not careful. How about President Trump? What's the biggest thing you've learned watching him in action? Well, I probably spent more time with President Trump than most of any other presidents I worked with. He was very engaging. I enjoyed the engagement. We could talk and this and that. But he had, you know, all of them. They just want to do this or don't do this, or I don't care if you do this or that, you know. And the only thing I had to tell him in a very nice way, I said, you know, Mr. President, I'll vote for the Supreme Court if I feel that that's responsible and I can explain it.

22:04And I will do it on my own time basis. I'm so sorry, sir. I hope it doesn't offend you. But I will do and be able to go home and explain it. And I will do that in such a nice way. The thing I knew, the difference between Senator Trump, I mean, President Trump and President President Biden had been a senator, so he'd been a public servant. He'd been a representative. I knew that President Trump had not. So I thought, you know, he's going to come a little bit harder at this, not understanding there's some checks and balances and there's a purpose. So if he got upset or got mad, I understood that.

22:38It didn't bother me because I understood he would not understand that. I just knew this. If he had been in the Senate, he would understand probably more why I was doing what I was doing than not. So I had to be a little bit more differential towards them.

22:51David Novak:Yeah. You talk about the importance of being able to go home and explain what you're doing and why you're voting this way or that way to your people. And you're also called a retail politician. You know, I was in the retail business. I think I know what that means. But what does being a retail politician mean to you? I would go in, first of all, everybody that I would come into my staff, whether I was a governor, whatever position I held. I said, how do you answer the phone? Let me hear, how would you just normally, coming in here? They said, well, sure. I would just say, if they called your office, it's the Senator Manchin's office, which is the Governor Manchin's office, how can I help you?

23:29And I said, well, let's stop right there. The word can tells me a lot or tells me nothing. I don't know if you can. I don't know if you're prepared to. I don't know if you really want to. So let's not use the word can anymore. May, let's use may. If you said, may I help you? I know you're ready. I know you're prepared. I know you want to. There's a difference. You break down every barrier by that first phone call. That's retail. Now, that's a customer just called in. Well, you know what? Which customer says this? I can't wait to get a phone call from the IRS. I just can't wait. They're so wonderful.

24:05I want to talk to them. We don't think that way about government or anybody. We don't think we want to get good service because they got control. Well, whether they talk to me or not, whether they like me or not, whether they're nice or not. I said, we're not going to be that. I want this to be the best experience anyone's ever had with government, whether it be state or federal. So may we help you. Let me know this. And if you don't hear from me in three or four days, please call me back. Sometimes things fall through the crack. And don't you hesitate to call me back. Once you do that, you've covered all your bases.

24:37Because, you know, Cicero said to error is human. You're a human being, David. You're going to make mistakes. But if you're saying that I'm prone to make a mistake, but, you know, some people say, well, I didn't call, didn't want to bother you. Wait a minute. You're not bothering me. You're just basically reminding me to do my job if I forgot something. So I would cover all bases.

24:56David Novak:You know, so, you know, you were a Democratic senator for 14 years. And I think you've explained why you went independent because you were fed up with the way. No, no, the work ethic. It was a work thing. Explain that. It was the straw that broke the camel's back. They got mad at me because they said, Joe Manchin's killing childcare. I said, have you all ever worked with poor people? Have you ever been around poor people? I said, you people are talking$200 ,000 and$400 ,000 of income. We don't have people in West Virginia at$200 ,000 or$400 ,000. And if we do, it's very, very few and far in between.

25:30The people that need help are mostly single parents trying to raise a child, mostly females. And they do need help. And you take a person up to$75 ,000 of income, they should be able to get some assistance. I said, so we have a difference of where the need is. And it won't be so costly that we can't afford it and we throw the country into a tailspin. On the other hand, then they got mad at me and they said they wanted to send$300 child credits, child tax credits for people that weren't working. I said, wait a minute. If you've got people that aren't working in their home, I thought the whole incentive of childcare care was to help you have a responsible, livable job.

26:15And I said, I'm not for that. I can't do that. And then everybody got upset. I said, oh, I'm out of this. I don't belong to this party.

26:24David Novak:So, you know, as an independent, then you're not a Democrat. You're not a Republican. I told the Republicans they wouldn't like me any better than the Democrats. Yeah, but how do you lead when nobody's fully on your side? because, you know, you got the Democrats irritated, the Republicans are irritated, there you are. I mean, how do you lead when you don't have an affiliation and you're out there kind of on your own? David, everybody wants to work together. Everybody wants to work together, but they're expected in Washington to pick your side and be against the other side. So when there are some people that says, we want a bipartisan bill, they would come to me.

27:03I had a D by my name and I was the one that would always cross over if it made sense. But, I mean, it's so estranged here and so challenging and difficult. If you're in cycle, that means you're up for election in two years and you're in this, they call it cycle, and you're in two years as a senator because you run every six years. You're in a cycle. They don't want, if you're a Democrat and I'm a Republican, David, they don't want me to sign on to a good piece of legislation that you're trying to pass because you might get credit for it and help you get reelected. I couldn't agree to any of this stuff.

27:38I said, no, if that's good, it's good when he's running and it's good when he's not running and we can get it passed. I'm for it. So I was always against the grain.

27:48David Novak:Hello, friends. I hope you're loving this conversation. Be sure to stay tuned to the very end of the episode. As always, David and I are going to debrief some of the concepts that he talks about with this week's guest. So stay tuned to the very end and I will see you soon. So people come to you, Joe, because you can bring people together. But how do you bring two opposing sides that don't trust each other, particularly in today's world? And you've got the cycle that you just talked about. What's your playbook for doing that? Well, you've got to be careful and look and see basically who you're dealing with here.

28:21If you're dealing with leadership, the leaders have probably already staked out where they are. You know, philosophically where they are and what their purpose is. and they've already got their base, which is where the money comes from, the basis. And that's where the two parties, they have the hard left and the hard right. Those are the extremes. Well, the amount of money that's able to come into the political process, you know, is unbelievable. $24 billion was spent in a presidential primary in 2024. 24 billion, okay? Four and a half billion came from just the billionaire class. We've never done that before.

28:55So that's what's thrown everything out of kilter. So you have to recognize that. And you got to recognize the leaders are not going to disrupt that because that disrupts their cash flow. Their business plan doesn't work if they try to do always the right thing and not what's best for the to keep the numbers. And remember, the two numbers that every party is looking for, they want 218 in the House, 51 in the Senate to control the majorities. That means they control the agendas. Once they do that, David, within the Senate, you have to have 60. You might not pass anything, but that's OK. hey, you've still got the gavel, you're in charge.

29:32And the only thing I have said, I go and look at like-minded people that basically want to get things done. It doesn't matter about being a D or an R, and some of my dearest friends are Republicans and Democrats that I know that do not subscribe. But if they get leadership, they're held hostage. So sometimes if you get five or six or 10 senators that are kind of working in a centrist way, and I'll give you a perfect one, the bipartisan infrastructure bill. It was not done from leadership. It was done by those of us. We had about five and five, each Democrat and Republicans. We sat down, we worked through how we could adjust this so we could both live with it and sell it.

30:14And then we went and pushed the leadership and then the leadership put it on the table. They weren't going to do it on their own because they had never gotten down to where they had all the work that needed to be done. So, you know, I just, I look at, I just know that the human side of it, David, you want to get along with people. You want to be sociable. You want to be able to have dialogue. And I was that person. I could give you sociability up by the spades. I could give you dialogue as much as you wanted whenever you needed it. And I was always there. So I just felt comfortable. And come on, we are better than that.

30:50I'd walk into the Republican cloakroom. And they say, oh, boy, you switch finally. You switch over. And I say, guys, I've always been with you when you're right.

31:02David Novak:That's really interesting because, you know, one of the things that I've always seen as a leader, there's a lot of power at times to shame people into doing the right thing. Can you tell a story about when you've done that? Well, in the business world, it's different. But in the political world, shaming somebody, you've got to be careful how you do that. I don't mean shame in a negative way, but it's more in the sense of appealing to somebody's sense of doing right. That if you don't do right, you should sort of be ashamed of yourself. That's what I mean. I would never imply otherwise. In politics, David, I would always want my staff to be engaged.

31:41In the mornings, we have every morning meeting. I have a phone call every morning, no matter what. Even if I was on the road, 9 o 'clock, everybody would talk. I want to hear their input. But I said, guys, at the end of the day, I said, you know, we got, I'll make a final decision. We're all on the same team. And every now and then they get a little antsy and fighting back and all that. And I said, well, wait a minute. Please, I must have missed something when I came to work this morning. Go out and check on the door and see if my name's still on it. I said, they might have erased it. Maybe yours is up there now.

32:11You know, and that would kind of, okay, I got you. I know where you're coming from. I said, come on, guys. We're going to be together, okay? And they know that. I said, fight for your position. Be respectful. Fight for your position. And then I'll come up and make a decision. And sometimes you'll be happy that we did a lot of things you recommended. Sometimes you won't be. But I'll never embarrass you. But I had, when I would hire people, I would tell my staff to bring me the best three. Let me choose from three. So they would always tell me that. And one time when I was governor, we were looking for a person to run a public insurance agency, PIA, Public Employees Insurance Agency.

32:48And I said, you got three good people because we need some help there. And they said, yeah, we got three good people. But the best person didn't want to be interviewed. I said, what? They said, the best person didn't want to be interviewed. And I said, really? And I said, give me that person's name and phone number. And I called the person. And we had a very cordial conversation. I said, let me ask you something. I said, how do you like the life you have? And the person said, I have a good life. I like it very well. And I said, I understand you don't want to be even interviewed for this job. Can you tell me why?

33:22Well, because, you know, being a public job, there might be things that I've got to make decisions on. Then my kids will hear people talk about me and this and that and it'll upset them. And I said, really? I said, OK. And I said, and you say you like the life you have and you like the family you have. I said, wouldn't this be a very poor country to live in if everyone took the same position you're taking with the ability that you have, the knowledge you have to help the state of West Virginia that you say you reside in and you love, but you're afraid because you're afraid that someone's going to say something that might upset your children.

34:01And I said, the only thing I can tell you, I told my children, I'm going to be in public service. You're going to hear things. And I want you all to understand that's a very small price to pay for the great opportunity we have to live one heck of a quality life that most people don't have in the world.

34:15David Novak:Well, that's a great example, Joe, positively shaming somebody into doing the right thing. Well, you know what? And he signed up the next day he came to work. Not surprised. Not surprised. You know, as a leader, you really can't escape failure. I mean, in fact, failure is something that happens to all of us. What's a decision you made that you regret, and what did it teach you? We were at an armed services meeting. We had all the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and we were, it was don't ask, don't tell. Remember the don't ask, don't tell era, Bill Clinton, when he put that in? And by this time, Barack Obama, they wanted to maybe move on from that.

34:56You know, don't ask, don't tell. Just everyone's accepted in. And so I didn't know any difference about that. I have no preference whatsoever. I think everyone has the right because the oath that I take gives me the responsibility to make sure you have the ability to pursue the happiness. So whoever you want to be, whoever you want to love, however you want to live your life, as long as you don't make me believe that I should believe the same, but I'm going to defend you to live yours and enjoy that pursuit of happiness. I would defend that. But what happened was they were going down the line of all of the military.

35:32Will this change how you're doing? The Air Force says, no, we think we can live if we get rid of don't ask, don't tell. And then went on down until we got to the Marines, commandant. And the Marine commandant said at that time, listen, I've got 50 % of my people deployed in Afghanistan and Iraq right now. This is a major, major policy change that could be affecting our fighting personnel. When I heard that, I said, oh boy, maybe we better not do that right now. So I did not support it. Getting rid of no-dance, don't tell. And then later, I watched what had happened, and it didn't have any effect whatsoever by getting rid of it because everybody pretty much knew.

36:09They just didn't have to live in fear of getting thrown out of the military. Okay? Well, I was on, I was doing a talk show, and Rachel Maddow was one of the people. You know, Rachel was pretty far left, right? And she was doing it. And she said, oh, but, but. And someone said, does anybody have any questions for Senator Manchin? And, um, Rachel says, oh, I do, I do, I do. And she has, she said, she jumped up and she says, Senator Manchin, uh, you were against, uh, getting rid of Don't Ask, Don't Tell. Uh, what do you think about that? And I said, Rachel, I made a mistake. I says, I was listening to the testimony of people in front of me and I just maybe didn't go deep enough to find out that it hadn't affected.

36:51It wasn't going to affect because pretty much everyone knew who was who in the military right now. And now there wasn't a threat of getting thrown out if you were gay. That was a difference. And I said, I have nothing against people's sexual preferences. I said, I didn't know if it would be able to affect or would have any effect. I made a mistake. I didn't do it. And I retracted that. And for that, I'm sorry.

37:15David Novak:And what was the reaction? She went, oops, and we became friends. What's the most difficult, the hardest no vote you ever had to broadcast. And what'd you learn from that? What did it cost you? Well, I had to tell the president of the United States, if$6 trillion,$10 trillion,$3 trillion, it was the biggest bill that anyone ever put up in Congress before, which is the BBB, Build Back Better for Joe Biden. And he needed all 50 senators. And 49 senators had signed on to that bill. And I could not because there was so much in that bill that I knew would make our country completely dependent on the government.

37:54And I had to tell the president in the White House, in his living quarters, that I couldn't support it. And I said, Mr. President, you and I are about the same vintage. I said, we remember John Kennedy asking not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country. And I took that so serious, which I'm sure you did. And it took a lot of us into public service because we thought that everyone ought to have the ability and have the opportunity to serve. You don't have to run for office, but you have to give something back to your country. You've got to do something because you own it.

38:26It's a republic. We own it. You have me vote for this bill, and I'm the vote you need to pass this piece of legislation. I believe in my heart of hearts you're going to change the psyche of the nation to how much more can my country do for me. And I said, sir, I didn't sign up for this. I wasn't raised that way, and I definitely don't believe that. I believe that everybody has a responsibility to give something back to this country. Country was not designed, and the government we have was not designed to be your provider. It was designed to be your best partner you've ever had. But a partnership takes both of us pulling that rope.

39:04And that's not what this is, sir, and I cannot vote for that. And I mean, the whole country went crazy against me because I killed the most landmark piece of legislation that all the progressive has wanted. It would have been socialism on steroids. And I could not do it.

39:22David Novak:How do you get, you know, innately you have courage of conviction. How do you, what advice would you give a leader on how they can develop the kind of courage of conviction you got to have if you're going to be a good leader? evaluate if it comes down to the final straw that it might change your direction as far as how you take care of yourself or your family then you got to look and see do i have the ability to to market myself and still make a living for my family and take care of myself and not be dependent on other people once you evaluate where you stand in life and how you can survive in this world of ours, then your decisions should be made on can you live with yourself?

40:05Is it going to be haunting you? Is there going to be something you said, I wish I could redo it? I wish I had never done that. Knowing that you thought there's a difference. If you thought you were making the right decision with the facts that you had and the info you had in front of you, David, and it turned out to be wrong, you can repair that because you didn't intend to do anything wrong. It turned out not to be good, but your intention was to be good. You just had the wrong info. You didn't do enough homework to get the right info, okay? You can live with those. What you can't live with when you know something is wrong.

40:38You know it's being done for the wrong reason. And you know in your heart of hearts, you can't change. That's inside. What's inside your soul is inside your soul. You know it, but you do it because you think it'll enhance your opportunities or your status or whatever. And when you do that, that's when you've sold yourself down. So I've always said, let me say, if I do that and people don't, and they're mad at me, and I'll give you a perfect example. I had to vote. I voted because I felt very strongly about background checks for guns. And I come from one of the most gun states there is. Okay? And Second Amendment's precious to me and to all of us.

41:19But I've never known anybody didn't have background checks that bought guns. Now, it might be a lineage where your father bought a gun, gave you his gun, or vice versa. But there was a process, and now they didn't want that at all. And I thought it should be done, and they came after me. Everyone came after me, Democrats and Republicans, that were Second Amendment people. I had to work my butt off and go around to every gun store in West Virginia, explain to them that this is what we're doing, which is basically helpful to their business and making sure there wasn't people selling guns on the next corner.

41:51to any Tom, Dick, and Harry just because they didn't have a background check.

41:54David Novak:That's a great example of a very tough issue, and you had to win over a constituency to move on. And you know what I thought? If I got defeated based on that, then I could live with myself because I don't want someone to have a gun that shouldn't have a gun just because we didn't want to take a background check and didn't know that they were criminally or mentally insane or criminals before and was going to do it again if you gave them a gun. And I still think very strongly about that, but I could take a defeat on that. I wasn't afraid to be able to get defeated. That was definitely a tough issue that you handled.

42:28David Novak:And speaking of toughness, what would be the hardest person you ever had to win over? And how'd you do it? Because leaders, we've got to take on those people that sometimes, you know, if you don't get them on your side, you're in tough shape. Well, this is the big leagues up here. is there's an awful lot of good, strong, tough people, you know, and you got to work on them from the standpoint and fine. And when you have a person, I can tell you, when a person tells me, I say, hey, Joe, would you sign on to this amendment for me or this bill with me? And I'd say, let me look at it. Sure, I hope I can.

43:04I said, it sounds like a good idea. And I've always taken the approach that if somebody comes to me from Missouri or Kansas or anywhere in the country, they're coming because they want to fix something or help their constituents. Well, I'm there to help also because I'm going to be asking them to help me fix something that I think needs to be repaired in West Virginia. That's just the way I approach the whole process of public service. I'm there to say, yes, I want to help you. Yes, I can help you. And if I can't, I want to tell you what it would take for me to help you. So when they come to me and they say, Joe, can you sign on to this?

43:39Let me read the bill you want or the amendment. and I'd do that and my staff would look at it and they'd give it back to me. And they said, you know, this doesn't really do exactly what you were told it, that your fellow colleague told you that. And I would say, okay, I got it. And I said, so okay. So I'd go back and I'd say, David, if you could allow me to make a few adjustments, addendums to this and a few changes, and if I could do that and give it back to you and see if you agree with that, then we could do this together and it would be very good. You're going to give me one of two answers.

44:11You're going to say, Joe, I'm sorry, I can't change anything in the bill. What you're telling me in a nice way is this is a political statement I'm making. I'd love to have you on it to show that it's bipartisan, but I've got to make this political statement. And I would say, David, I understand where you're coming from. But when you really are serious about trying to pass this, please come to me because I want to help you.

44:34David Novak:Was there a particular person that was the hardest to get to that end game with, or was just basically everybody? Ted Cruz is pretty rough. He's good. He's very smart, very good. But I liked Ted. I worked with Ted. But he put you through it. He was very, very good at presenting something that sounded so wonderful that everyone should be motherhood and apple pie. But then it was maybe had a little twist to it. You had to figure out what the twist was and work your way around it or through it or not at all. So different things, but I'm saying it was a good challenge, but he's just a good legislator.

45:07He's a very good legislator.

45:08David Novak:You've talked about it. Right now, our country politically is so divided, and people vote for their party, and not necessarily for what's good for our country, and it's a challenge. And as a result of that, so many people that I talk to are futile. They're just so frustrated. And I always say that I think if we had a president that came at it, knew how to really bring two sides together, we could actually get this country turned around and working together again. And everybody tells me, David, BS. It's just not going to happen. We're too far down the path. But I think you're underestimating the power of what a leader can do.

45:58David Novak:What do you think about that, Joe? I mean, people have asked you to run for president You know, do you think you could do it? Two things you have, David You know, you have to believe in yourself first And you have to believe if you were put in the right place How would you evaluate? Well, in public service, wherever you're put into Whether it's a local job, a state job, a mayor Or a state legislator or a governor or a senator or a congressperson You have to know your district, know your state, know what your purpose is Well, the first thing is that any leader, you better figure out what are the most vulnerable points that you have within the job you're going to be taking.

46:34So if it's governor, what's the greatest threat that people in West Virginia would face? I want to make sure there's floods, there's some types of things that could destroy your lives, mining accidents we had, everything. You've got to make them better. You've got to make it safer and basically take care of the people. And then you'd better, if you have a mandate, you got elected, people believed in you. you better take on the toughest subject there is to help your state prosper and do better. And with that, that means you don't waste a mandate. And you better be able to handle a crisis. If you can't handle both of those and prepare yourself for a mandate to do the tough thing or a crisis to handle the hard thing, then you're not deserving of the job.

47:18So whether it be the president of the United States or whether it be a leadership executive position as governor of the state, that's what you have to have. And all CEOs have that. The people that rise to the top are able to assemble, basically, and look at it, dissect what company they have, what's the purpose, what's the goal, how they achieve it.

47:37David Novak:Boom, boom, boom. But can a president today change, bring people together? Do you think it's possible? Because right now, people have given up. A lot of people that are very smart have given up. Yeah, they've given up to the point where they say the system is basically, it's fraught with money. So can you get control of the money again? Can you put the Citizens United? Can we reverse that? Can the legislature do it upon themselves? They won't. We're going to have to go to the referendum of the people in every state in order to change because there's enough good people of good sense of common sense of how they have to run their lives.

48:13they expect to be represented that way in Washington. They're not getting it from here. If you wanted to put limits on how much money could be spent in the campaign, it won't be done from the people that are benefiting by it. It'll be done by the people outside watching why it's so bad and they've given up. And I said that, so you have that first. How come so many people can't even vote in primaries because the parties have shut it down? So open the primaries up. Let people run in the primaries, not because they have all the money in the world or because they're well politically connected, but because they might be the best of character and have the smartest ability to lead.

48:52Get more people in that. So we're not getting the best of the best. That's our problem. And that's by design. And I've asked people, do you believe you have the right to vote because you're a U.S. citizen or because you belong to a party? They'll all tell me, because I'm a U.S. citizen, I says, then you're absolutely wrong because the party is picking you. You're not picking the candidate. They're giving you who you're going to vote for. And the primaries, you only have about 17 % of people that show up in primaries anymore. And the primaries are controlled. They've shut them down. You can't vote as an independent.

49:26There's so many states you can't even get on. Go vote if you wanted to vote. You have to join a party. I don't want to be in a party. I want to be flexible and work with the best ideas of both parties. They don't want that. So that has to change it. And it can be changed. But it won't be done if you're allowing Congress or your legislature. It'll be done by referendums, by people starting a referendum in their state. And once you get so many states that basically can pass a national referendum, then it's forced for a vote. Then we want to find out who are the people you sent to Washington. Are they representing you or representing themselves?

50:06David Novak:You know, this has been so much fun and interesting, and I want to have some more with my lightning round of questions here. So are you ready for this? Sure. What three words best describe you? Looking for the best. If you could be one person for a day beside yourself, who would it be? I thought about Neil Armstrong. I'd love to step on that moon. What's your biggest pet peeve? Not getting things accomplished. Not accomplishing what I tend to do. Who would play you in a movie? Maybe John Han. What do most people not know about life on a houseboat? How rewarding it is and how relaxing. Being on the water, I think that we're, as John Kennedy said, most of our body, the water in our body, you know, and is the same as what we have and being around water.

50:54It's just the most calming effect, I think, no matter what, waking up in the morning and looking at it when you go to bed. Water just is calming.

51:01David Novak:What's something that you've been curious about lately, Joe, that has nothing to do with work? I'm curious about AI, where AI is going to take us. And I'm wondering if we're going to put any guardrails on that'll protect human power. One word that defines great leadership? Compassion. What's the one thing you do just for you? Dream. Besides your friends and family, what's your most prized possession? A home to gather, a gathering place. If I turned the radio on in your houseboat, what would I hear? The oldies. What's something about you that few people would know? I'm a clean freak. What's one of your daily rituals something that you never miss?

51:43I think in the morning, just having my coffee and first thing in the morning and reading three papers in the morning, every morning.

51:50David Novak:All right, we're out of the lightning round. Great job. Just a few more questions and I'll let you go. So, you know, I got to ask you this because this is a great leadership moment in our country right now. You know, what's your take on what we're doing in Iran and how we're handling it from a leadership perspective? Well, first of all, you know, we're taught when you first get, especially on armed services, you get four countries of concern. They're never going to have our backs at all. That's when we're Russia, China, Iran, North Korea. They all have they all have nuclear capabilities. So how we become so dependent upon China is beyond me.

52:29We messed up that one morally, been in the WTO. Russia, you never turn your back on Russia. They're never going to be for you. And I can't understand why the president is so coddled up to them. And on the other hand, with Iran right now, we've known since 1979, this is a regime. And a regime change can't be changed because it's an ideology. It's who they are. It's what they believe. And that's not going to be changed. And for us to allow them to be the greatest terrorist on the face of the earth, the world has ever known, terrorist supporters of all the different satellites they have with Hezbollah, the Houthis, Hamas.

53:12And if we don't stop that, so I do not fault the president from going in targeting their capability. I would have hoped there would have been more input, would have been more buy-in from other nations, more buy-in from the legislature, knowing what was going in, the threats that we were facing, and why it was so important to neutralize Iran. We'd have had more people helping this. We could have kept the Straits of our nose open. All those things would have been a lot easier to accomplish than trying to go it alone. And basically, when you go it alone, sooner or later, there's going to be a bigger guy on the block that says they don't have any help coming.

53:43The cavalry is not going to come and try to help save them. So we'll take them on now. So those things worry me a little bit about that. Can we turn that around? Yes. I'm praying for the president to open up and rekindle the friendships we have with our NATO allies. The purpose of NATO was not to have a third world war, making sure that the Gulf states, the Arab states over there, start taking leadership of their neighbors who are bad neighbors like Iran. It's not going to be a Gentile country or a Jewish country come in and run Iran, but it could be the Arab states over there, you know, UAE, Saudis, Emirates, all of them.

54:22And I would hope that that would be done. So I'm concerned we better start putting basically a rational approach to how we do it. My thing is they cannot pull out until we get those nuclear, the enriched uranium. Now, if that's the case and we find out there's no enriched uranium, the same way we found out there's no weapons of mass destruction. You know, we heard about that, and that's the reason we went to war in Iraq. We unstabilized that whole part of the world because of that. I hope that's not the case here. And if there is, I hope we stay the course until we are able to secure all the enriched uranium to make sure they can't do horrific damage to people.

55:03Now, they've already shown their intent, and you cannot work with them. It's hard to make a deal with them because you're fighting a regime, an ideology. And the IRG is not backing down. That's not, there's no give up there. And their greatest reward is when you kill them.

55:21David Novak:That's a tough negotiation. It'd be kind of hard to go in there and ask them if they play golf or not. Well, you know, that's, how do you negotiate with someone? And the same in Afghanistan. I was over there a few times when I was governor with our troops. And people that live in mud huts or caves have no quality of life at all. and they believe the greatest reward is Allah, you know, embracing them. And they have nothing to fear. They have nothing to lose. So that's what we're dealing with. And once you do that, how do you manage it? They better figure a way to manage it. And I think it's going to be the Arab countries that can help manage that better than what we ever could.

55:58And that's what I'm hoping is done. But I don't see us backing out anytime and I'm hoping the president opens up his arms and brings Canada back in the fold, brings all of Europe back in the fold, bring our NATO allies back into the fold. We need them. They need us. We have the same desires of a freedom, freedom-loving people that want to light the liberty that it gives us. And those other countries aren't going to give that.

56:22David Novak:You know, shifting gears here, you've been married to your wife, Gail, for nearly 60 years. What's been your philosophy or approach to leading at home? Oh, I really, I've been, when I say leading at home, my wife, I've been more of a failure. Public life takes that away from you, the time that's needed. So the time that you're there better be quality time. You got to catch yourself trying to, if you're, the small amount of time you're able to be home and all you're doing is reprimanding everybody. That doesn't work. So if it wasn't for my wife being the, being the anchor that she has been, we would not have had, I believe, the quality of family that we have now.

57:03because I was always, I mean, I was 35 and kids were very young. I was gone all the time. And I've been gone ever since. And it's just that they've been able to accept it, to understand it. And I've always tried to make sure they were part of it. It's a difficult situation. There are some sacrifices to be made. You better have a strong partner, spouse or partner that understands and can pick up the slack because, you know, they need guides. And you got to always be there for the important time, just put it that way.

57:32David Novak:Joe, you've accomplished so much. What do you see as your unfinished business? I still believe that we can correct what we see wrong in a political. I'm ashamed. All the people I know, all the good people still in the Senate, my friends up there, they know better. They know better. They need to say, what's my purpose of being here? I'm not going to vote for that. And I have to tell the president, Mr. President, I'm so sorry, I can't support that. And I know all hell's going to come down on me. but this is a very small price to pay knowing I've done the right thing for my country. If they can come to that conclusion, I can tell you, you will help the president and help his administration be a much better leader than just thinking they can force people by their will.

58:14And that means that the three separations of power, the judicial right now, the legislative has just about rolled over and you can't tell the difference between legislative and executive now because they're all bonded as one. The House is Republican, the Senate's Republican, and the executive branch is Republican, and there's no checks and balances. Well, the Senate was always the check and balance. We didn't expect the House to be. They're going to be always with, if they're a majority of Democrats and the president's majority of Democrats, we're going to be there. Okay? Even if it were Democrat Senate, I didn't think that the president was always right or we should always be there because of the party.

58:52It should be because of the issues. And they've lost that. And I'm praying to God that we can bring that back at independent and the senators, especially to say, I'm so sorry. I cannot support that because I think there's a better way to do it.

59:05David Novak:All right. Last question here. What's one piece of advice you'd give to anyone who wants to be a better leader? I just think that the other side is not always wrong. You know, if you're if you're if you're involved and it's in your heart to serve, then public service has to be. how can I help? That means not just help yourself or help the people you represent. How can you help other people that you need to work with? Because there's the ones you're going to actually help you. You can't go alone in this game. If you think you can be a lone ranger in a political arena that we have today, then you better find another horse to ride because they ain't going to be a lone ranger.

59:43That ain't going to happen. And with that, there's enough good people that came here for the right reason. You have to seek them out. It doesn't take long to figure out who came here for the country first before the party.

59:54David Novak:So, you know, Joe, you've had many, many people come to you and ask you to run for president. Why haven't you stepped up and done that? I mean, I'm going to give you the pitch you gave the guy who didn't take your job. You know, I mean, you know, you called him up and said, hey, what are you doing these days? Is there anything that could be more important than doing what you just said? I'll tell you one thing. If I could have got on 50 ballots, if I could have got on all 50 ballots, I would have been out there. I'd have been swimming. I would have been able to say, listen, I'm going to give it the best shot I've got to try to bring some commonality and bring some sensibility to this process that we have is so convoluted now.

1:00:28And if I had people, if I was in the middle here and I'm debating and you got a hard D and a hard R fighting for their position, I'd say, guess what? I agree with both of you on many things. I disagree on a lot of things with both of you. But together, my goodness, if I can get you working together, we're going to do a lot of good things for our country. Right now, you're never going to have that because the other side thinks that my ideas are better. You know, I've never had a campaign I was ever in, David, that I didn't learn something from the other side. I'd be in a debate and I'd have to call the person after that maybe I won the election.

1:00:59I won many elections. So I'd call the person and say, you know, that was a great idea you had. And we were debating, can you help me with that? And they'd be surprised and we'd build up a relationship.

1:01:09David Novak:Well, Joe, I have to tell you, I've enjoyed this conversation immensely. You know, it's great to see someone with the kind of conviction you have and the passion that you have to make our country better. And I want to thank you so much for taking the time. My biggest thing, David, right now, if I can convince, if I can basically help educate the people of America on how they can be proud of their government, how they can be proud of the people that are representing that, it's by changing how you elect them. That's the first thing. Changing the amount of monies in the process is not the money that's buying the election.

1:01:43It's the people making the decisions of who do you want to represent you. And when people start redrawing all these new lines for Congress, you know, these redistricting and everything because gerrymandering. That's not what Thomas Jefferson put all that together so that we would have like minded people representing like minded people. So I would pick someone if I'm in an agricultural area, I could find someone who I knew understood agriculture. But you can if you just, if I'm just looking for votes here and there, the whole process has been plagued by the Democrat and Republican process that we have.

1:02:24And go back to the founding fathers. They were concerned about this. They were very much concerned that this would happen. And only us can correct it. That means the citizens of our country who live under the freedom and the liberty that comes with it, that we have to liberate ourselves from the bonds of these two parties that are destroying us.

1:02:44David Novak:All right. Well, let's pray that happens. Thank you very much. We have to work on it. We have to work on it. Thanks, Joe. Thank you, David. Appreciate it.

1:02:57David Novak:Well, David, I don't know of a better guest to kick off the July 4th weekend than Joe Manchin. Happy 250th to America. Yeah, what a great celebration it's going to be. I can't wait for this 4th of July. It's so interesting, David. We rarely have government leaders on the show, but at a time like this, when our world feels so divided, it was really refreshing to hear Joe talk about his deep desire to find common ground among people that just feel so far apart right now. And regardless of where you sit with your political beliefs, I think that everybody can take away some really, really tremendous insights from your conversation with Joe.

1:03:37David Novak:And I am excited, David, to get your take on some of the themes that I pulled out from the episode as you two were talking. And the reason why we don't have government leaders on this show is that the world is so darn divisive. You know, I mean, and that divisiveness is not something I really want to mess with. And because I want this show to be something that people look at in the most positive sense. And the reason why Joe was on the show was that, you know, he's been known for being independent, you know, trying to understand both sides and then ultimately making the best decision that he's capable of.

1:04:15David Novak:And the fact that he was independent is the reason why he's on the show. And I don't think I'm going to be having a whole lot more government leaders on the show. And that's no slam against him. He's just not the typical government leader. And that's why he's on the show. Well, he's certainly a gifted at finding common ground, which is the first kind of theme that I want to get your take on, David. Obviously, he has a very unique way of bringing people together. And that's a skill that is critical to every leader. So I'm curious, David, if you have a story of when you had significantly opposing viewpoints on your team, how did you find common ground and bring the team together so that they could keep moving forward?

1:04:56David Novak:Well, first of all, I think you got to do a lot of work before you have the divisiveness. Okay. And that means you need to know the people that you work with on a personal basis. You need to know what they like to do. Like I love Joe talking about how before he started any meeting, he tried to understand what people were into, whether it was golf or fishing or whatever, just so that you can show each other that you're human. Okay. You both have different interests that you both have things that are outside of work, that you're a person. And I think once people see you as a person and know that you see them as a person, that creates a human ground that provides a good basis for any kind of productive discussion.

1:05:49David Novak:One of the big challenges I had in business was always working with our franchisees. The franchisees would oftentimes view the company people to be corporate. And, you know, all we wanted to do was drive up sales so that we could make money on the franchise fees, which were tied to sales growth. And, you know, they didn't think we really cared necessarily about, you know, their profitability. And those were misconceptions. OK, so I think in situations like that, you want to level the playing field by talking about how you understand each other. OK, and each other's needs and, you know, how you can win together.

1:06:40David Novak:You know, for example, the single biggest way we could drive your profits as a franchisees was to grow your sales because the flow through on every incremental sales dollar was at least 40%. And that's how you drive profitability. But letting people know that that's why you make the decisions, I think, really creates a common ground that you're in this as a win-win. And I actually created a franchise pact at Young Brands. We had, we called it a partnership pact. And we talked about the company would do this and the franchisee would do this. And that would be one plus one equals three. And we had like 10 things that we wrote down that we were committed to.

1:07:26David Novak:And we did that together. And, you know, that was something that we referred to as we made decisions. So I think finding common ground that way is really, really great. But one exercise I did in terms of just getting to know the human side of everything is before we'd start meetings or we have big meetings where everybody come together and they might not know each other. We take time out and you'd be sitting next to somebody and we'd say, tell tell tell that person three things about you that make you you. OK. And, you know, people would share. And I think that just kind of breaks down all kinds of barriers.

1:08:07David Novak:And I think the human side does that more than anything. It's so interesting how quickly we forget that all of us are human beings first. It's so easy to get caught up in your role or your title or your political party. But remembering that you're dealing with other human beings who might have similar interests to you outside of work or outside of politics is such a good level set. And I love Joe talking in the episode about how when he invites folks on his houseboat, how he gets everybody to kind of loosen up and really get to know the human side of each other before they actually start talking business.

1:08:42David Novak:And I would love to be a fly on the wall on Joe's houseboat when he has some of those conversations because there's no telling what goes on. David, the next topic that was really interesting to me that stood out from this episode is this idea of changing your mind. Joe says in the episode, if we can't change our minds, we can't change anything. And that really resonated with me because so often leaders hesitate to change their minds because maybe they're afraid they're going to lose face or lose credibility. So I'm curious from your perspective, what coaching would you offer someone who is afraid to change their mind, even when they know they should?

1:09:21I think that people often are very hesitant to change their mind because they think that shows weakness, that it'll show their people that they really

1:09:34David Novak:weren't convicted about what they felt. But that's crazy. I mean, you need to change your mind when you have a reason to change your mind. And that's what I would tell everybody. If you find a reason that's legitimate for you to change your mind, change your mind and just tell everybody why you did it. I think the worst thing you can do is change your mind and not tell people why. Let people know that you're changing your mind and why. And I think they'll understand it. And then they can also give you their point of view if they think you're changing your mind for the wrong reason or going in the wrong direction.

1:10:14David Novak:But just let people know why you're doing what you're going to do. A lot of times leaders just don't do that. So, you know, A, be humble enough to change your mind if facts basically tell you you should. Okay. And then B, when you change your mind, make sure people understand why. In Joe's position, he might have, you know, one of the toughest positions in the world when it comes to the ability to change your mind and have people understand that. I feel like in politics, you know, it's just what you said. If you change your mind, then people see you as weak or not convicted enough to be a great leader or what have you.

1:10:54David Novak:And that sort of thought is bringing me to my final kind of point that I want to make, David, and get your feedback on. And it's this concept of government leadership. I mean, we talk a lot about, you know, we want to make the world a better place by developing better leaders at every stage of life and in every industry. And I think that's especially true when we talk about government leadership. And because of all of the nuances of our world today, that's really hard. If you could snap your fingers, David, and give one leadership trait to everyone in Washington, what would that leadership trait be and why?

1:11:30David Novak:I think the leadership trait would be to do the right thing. Do what you think is right. And the right things will happen. The problem that I think we have in politics is people get so deeply entrenched in the side that they're supposed to represent. Many times people forget about what's right. There's got to be a way to solve a lot of the problems that we have in this world. I mean, immigration being one for sure. I mean, And it's just, you know, there's got to be a path to citizenship for people who deserve that right. And we all know that they're out there. And I believe both Democrats and Republicans know that.

1:12:17But people are so entrenched in the stereotypical Democratic and Republican view that that problem still exists.

1:12:28David Novak:And that's a tough thing. So I'd say do the right things, the right things that will happen and tackle the tough issues together, not with a perspective that you're going to that's always going to be locked in, but do it with an open mind. And find common ground. I mean, to the first kind of theme that we talked about, remember that we're all humans here. And for the most part, I think we all want basically the same thing. So I feel like understanding that the end goal for all of us is kind of the same thing. We just got to figure out how we all get there together. Right. And this is the greatest country in the world.

1:13:06David Novak:We have a lot of great people focused on making it a better country, you know, that are in government. You know, I want to thank everybody that is, you know, dedicating their time and effort to really make that happen. And, you know, yeah, we have our faults, but I wouldn't go anywhere else. But I think one thing that I've always loved about our country is we always try to make things better. And we're always trying to take it to the next level. And, you know, I have a lot of confidence that we will. So, David, as we wrap this episode, what are the things that you really want people walking away thinking about?

1:13:43David Novak:I think, number one, it's really important to find common ground if you really want to tackles significant issues and just get the most out of your people or your organization. Number two, be humble enough to change your mind and just make sure when you do, people know why you did it so that you keep your credibility and your integrity. And then the third thing is, is that, you know, no matter whether you're in government or you're on the corporate world or you have your startup or you're in a nonprofit, just focus on doing the right thing. And when you do the right thing, the right things happen.

1:14:27David Novak:Well, David, with that, I will wish you a very happy 4th of July weekend. Stay safe out there. Happy 250th America. Thanks, Joe Manchin, for joining us for this show. And of course, thank you to our listeners. Tune in again next Thursday, and we will see you soon.

1:14:50The South, California estáывando otras líneas dentro de los poじゃ travestis que las luces no están para no perder nada.