3 More Questions (Roger Crandall) with David Novak and Koula Callahan

0:04David Novak:Happy Monday and welcome to another edition of Three More Questions. I'm Koula Callahan here with David Novak to debrief his conversation that he had with Roger Crandall, who is the president and CEO of MassMutual. David, I love this conversation. Roger just seems like somebody that I would want to be friends with. He's so down to earth. He's so smart. And the story behind MassMutual is an amazing one. Yeah, he is a terrific leader and his family is known for having great leaders. His uncle was Bob Crandall, who was the CEO of American Airlines and actually mentored him. And so he's been passionate about leadership and learning about leadership for a long time.

0:42And I think this podcast is really, really worth listening, as all of them are.

0:47David Novak:I know. I just said that he seems like someone I would be friends with. Then again, most of our guests do feel like friends. So that's a kudos to you and your interview style and the quality of guests that we have on this show. Yeah, I think we're fortunate to interview, as we say, the very best leaders in the world. And you don't get there by accident. Absolutely. Well, David, I'm excited to get your take on some of the concepts that you and Roger discussed on the full-length episode. So let's get going with today's questions. Let's go. Fire away, cool.

1:20David Novak:Question number one. Roger is a leader who breaks down bureaucracy everywhere he sees it. He knocked out much of the hierarchy that previously existed at MassMutual by flattening the organization. He even nixed their very meticulous office dress code. And his goal in all of his bureaucracy busting is to create an environment where people feel comfortable engaging. Other than org charts and dress codes, David, what can leaders do to ensure that bureaucracy doesn't creep in and take over their company? Declare war on bureaucracy. Just declare war on it. Let everybody in the world know that you hate it.

1:58It's like bureaucracy is the enemy, so just go after it. And then anytime you see bureaucracy as a leader, kill it. Get rid of it. If you've got somebody taking a look at 50 measures, ask them what the five most important measures are. If you see somebody asking you to do a process that makes no sense, but you've been doing it for years, kill it. Ask somebody why we're doing that. And then celebrate killing all of the stuff that doesn't really matter. That's how you get rid of bureaucracy. Make it a passion. Make it a disdain. Hate it.

2:34David Novak:I love in the episode when Roger talks about how he knocked out that dress code. He said in their employee manual, there was like six pages of what to wear and what not to wear. And he said that he took all of that out and replaced it with two words, dress appropriately. And that seems pretty simple. I mean, it's just a dress code. But I think that stuff like that goes a really long way. And just communicating to your team that we don't need all of this excess stuff just for the sake of having excess stuff. Well, I have to tell you, MassMutual, they might have topped the cake for bureaucracy if they had a six-page dress code attire.

3:13But anyway, that's all right. But that's what Roger does. He sees silly things like that and gets rid of them. He hates bureaucracy. He declares war on bureaucracy. We share that in common.

3:23David Novak:Question number two. Before making a decision, Roger places great emphasis on getting input from different people who represent diversity and thought and background, etc. He says that at the end of the day, though, the leader is still the one who has to call the play. David, what's your process of evaluating the input of others, and how does that ultimately play into decisions that you make? I have this philosophy on decision-making, which is basically healthy debate, healthy decision. So you get the best people in the room that know something about the subject, and you ask them what they think.

3:57You let people debate one way or the other, what they would do. And then you as a leader, listen to it all. And then you make the ultimate decision, which is that healthy debate leads to a healthy decision. You know, I think, you know, anytime you have talent in the room, you're always assessing the quality of their input. And when you get into these debates about what should happen, that's when I would really evaluate who is honest, you know, who really knows what they're talking about? Who has the courage to stand up for what they really believe? And, you know, those are the things that I would always look at with people.

4:32And if I found somebody that had great substance, great honesty, you know, great courage, I wanted them in the next meeting. If they didn't have it, you know, I'm not sure they're going to be around that long or they wouldn't be in the meeting.

4:45David Novak:How do you strike that balance between taking other people's opinions into consideration, but having the conviction of what you really believe is right? Well, I think in the end, if a decision has to be made and there isn't unanimous agreement on which direction it is, you as a leader have got to trust your experience and your capability to make the right decision. Because theoretically, that should be the reason why you're in that spot, because you have more experience, you've demonstrated more over time that you know how to get results, and therefore people should be able to have confidence in the decision that you make.

5:23So I think you have to be confident that you have the confidence to make a healthy decision. I think that's the most important thing. But I also believe in this process called team together, team apart, where you bring everybody together, you get everybody's input. You as a leader make a decision because you've taken the time to get everybody's input. You expect everybody to support that decision when you walk out the room. That's the team apart, part of the bargain. But the other part of the bargain is, is if you learn that the decision isn't a good one, that you didn't make the right decision, you'll come back and you'll readjust and you won't just have your head in the sand.

5:58You'll make the right pivot to make sure you get ultimate success.

6:03David Novak:Question number three. One of Roger's leadership principles is that he reinvents himself every four to five years. David, what do you do to reinvent yourself and stay current? Well, I think what Roger's point is, is that there are shifts in business that force you to change. And that usually happens every four or five years. And therefore, you have to pivot and learn more about a particular subject. Like the hot button right now is AI. I mean, everybody has to become proficient in AI. And that's one of the reasons why in every podcast, I'm really talking to leaders about what they're doing in their company and also what they're doing themselves.

6:44to get better at AI. But Kula, you know, I never had a four or five year target. I did it every year. I tried to do it every day. I tried to listen to feedback every day. And if I could become a better leader that moment by taking that feedback, I would do it. And then I had my formal process, which I do every year. I'd really try to assess, you know, what am I today and how could I be more effective tomorrow. And that would help me shape how I needed to reinvent myself. So I like to reinvent yourself every four to five years. But I think the real thing you want to be doing is be reinventing yourself constantly.

7:26Don't wait for this cataclyzing moment. I don't think Roger is really saying do that. But make sure that you're constantly evolving and growing with whatever needs to be done to make sure that you can be relevant for today.

7:39David Novak:It reminds me of what Chris Kinchemski, who is the CEO of McDonald's, says. He says, if you're not green and growing, you're red and rotten. And that goes for business results. But I also feel like that goes for your personal and professional development as well. It's when you stop evolving, when that energy stops moving you forward, it's time for a change. And you can keep up with trends or not. But I think, David, to your point, it's so important to have that sense of continual improvement, active learning, so that not only you stay on top of what's happening in your business and in your industry and in your market, but also just so you keep evolving as a human being.

8:22Hey, Kula, the fact that you can pronounce Chris Kimchimsy makes me agree with the point that you just made.

8:29David Novak:Hey, I'll take what I can get. No, seriously, good point.

8:36David Novak:Well, David, that does it for our episode of three more questions for today. And if you haven't listened to the full episode with David and Roger Crandall, I definitely recommend it as I do most of our episodes, but it's just fascinating to learn about their business and what's made them be so successful over all of these years. I mean, this business started in the 1800s and it's still thriving today. So definitely give Roger's episode a listen. Thank you again for tuning in to How Leaders Lead. We're on a mission to make the world a better place by developing better leaders. And if you carve out a little time with us, each and every week, we'll help you build the confidence you need to lead well.

9:15And coming up next on How Leaders Lead is my conversation with Tom Hale, the CEO of Aura, the makers of Aura Rings.

9:28You