#306: Tony Spring, Chairman & CEO, Macy’s, Inc. – Hit the ground listening

16:41Tony Spring:They don't cost any money. Last time I checked, you don't have to pay for graciousness. You don't have to pay for kindness. It's a human trait. And we actually all start out that way, you know, trying to be hospitable, trying to be generous, trying to showcase our manners and treat people as they want to be treated, not as we want to offer or we think. So it's thinking like the consumer. And I think it's going the slight extra mile. I mean, walking someone's packages to their car, holding the door, coming from behind the register and handing the bag to the consumer, calling the customer by name because you have their credit card in your hand.

17:21Tony Spring:I mean, the simplest of things make people smile. And I know, I'm sure like you, you go into a restaurant, if the waiter or waitress refills your coffee and it's hot, it makes you feel a certain way versus you're having to flag somebody down to get a refill. If you have to wait an extra 10 minutes for the check. So kind of back to storytelling, I try to bring as many practical real life examples of what actually gets in the way of hospitable service and what actually brings it to life where, you know, people's eyes light up and they say almost anything is possible. And I do believe, David, in the soft stuff because I think it complements the hard stuff.

17:59Tony Spring:We still have to deliver our financial results. We still have quarterly expectations. We're a public company. But I think there are times where we wave the report card and we say that's the strategy. And I have to remind people that is the report card. The strategy and the execution gets to the report card, not the other way around.

18:17David Novak:You know, you're obviously a very charismatic guy. You're friendly. You know, you're engaging, you know, but you're still the CEO. And, you know, CEOs scare the hell out of people. Do you have a story that you tell to let people know that you're just, you know, you might have the big job, but you're just like everybody else?

18:36Tony Spring:Well, I try to be humble. You know, again, I learned a long time ago, humility is not the absence of confidence or competence. But to call me by my first name, to see that I can wear jeans, to talk to people about their lives and their families, to acknowledge when something special or something terrible happens in their lives. I mean, we are a big family. I mean, that is the nature of our businesses. We spend a lot of time together. We do a lot of work together. But we actually care about each other. And if we do that, then we're going to care even more about the consumer. So when I was starting out, I was going to outwork everybody.

19:16Tony Spring:I was going to put my head down and just get stuff done. And I remember a boss at the time saying to me, you know, people can't see your heart. You know, they can see your shirt. They can see your jacket. They can see your glasses. Only you can show them your heart. And so it was just a good reminder to me, smiling, laughing, sharing some stories, being interested about what their lives are all about is the smallest and simplest thing I can do and can make the biggest difference in how people feel at work.

19:46David Novak:And here you are, you know, now as CEO, you're over two years into this journey that you have with your team. And, you know, what signs of evidence are you getting that the culture you're trying to drive is really starting to take hold?

20:02Tony Spring:Yeah, we have multiple measures. One was our customer service scores are going up significantly. Our net promoter scores have gone up every quarter for the last two and a half years. We're at a record high at the Macy's, Bloomingdale's, and Blue Mercury brands. We are seeing our Culture Pulse survey, which is a survey that we have our colleagues take. Over 70 % of our colleagues participate in it. It's over 60 ,000 people responding. They feel better about the future of the company. They feel better about the people they work with. So we are trying to use measures to then decide what tactics, what strategies to put in place to improve the experience.

20:41Tony Spring:Because the customer service score, a net promoter score is a number. It doesn't say what to do. It says what grade the consumer is giving us. Would they recommend us to a friend? Then we have to say, well, we're still not getting the score we want on storytelling. We're still not delivering the service experience we think is appropriate in the restaurant, in the fitting room. We still feel like we're out of size and color too frequently. And we correct those things. And then we see the scores go up again. Or our colleagues feel like it's hard to get some tasks done. And so we introduce AI as an element of how we make work easier to get done.

21:16Tony Spring:So I keep trying to draw back to, you can do a lot of surveys if you don't respond to them, then the colleagues or the customer loses faith in ever filling out the survey in the first place.

21:27David Novak:Hello, friends. I hope you're loving this conversation. Be sure to stay tuned to the very end of the episode. As always, David and I are going to debrief some of the concepts that he talks about with this week's guest. So stay tuned to the very end, and I will see you soon. You know, when you make a change in a system like yours, which is huge, and it affects so many people, you got to be right that you're rolling out the right stuff. And, you know, I understand you're a big fan of pilot tests. You know, give me an example of how you test something before you roll it out.

22:01Tony Spring:So in our Reimagine Store program, we started with 50. So part of the announcement of the bold new chapter was we were going to reduce the number of stores that were past their prime and not fit for purpose, and that we were going to also invest in stores, put more people back into stores to try to play out against the survey results to say, I think the customer is willing to spend more money. I think the customer is willing to vote more frequently for Macy's if we deliver a better experience. And so we started with 50 stores. We added another 75 stores to get to 125. We added another 75 stores.

22:33Tony Spring:Now we're at 200, 60 % of the stores, 75 % of the business. We'll add more stores next year. And eventually we'll have reimagined all of our stores that we're going forward with. So it didn't start with, we have to do it only one way. We iterated along the way. So we eliminated some things from the first 50 to the next 75, and then finally to the 200. One of my favorite pieces from the puzzle or the recipe is that we added empowerment to the last group of stores, which we did not frankly have in the first 50 stores. And the example I would give is we feel like centrally we can direct everything and we can prescribe how to spend money.

23:15Tony Spring:We can prescribe how to present things ideally from New York. The reality is we can probably get 70, 75 % of it right. The last 25 % is what makes you locally relevant, what empowers people to feel like they can move resources around to make a difference. And lo and behold, that addition of empowerment has added another layer of value to the equation.

23:36David Novak:I got to ask you this one. Could you tell me about an idea that you really believed in with, you know, all the passion

23:41Tony Spring:that you obviously have that didn't survive the pilot? The one that stands out to me is the rental business that I tried at Bloomingdale's based on seeing Rent the Runway and other people go into the business. I said, God, we have all this inventory. Why don't we go into the rental business? It'd be terrific. We can get more value out of the inventory that we have. And too complicated. It was basically creating a shadow business for the business we had and a distraction for something that wasn't returning value fast enough. So we had to retire it. But I will tell you out of that pilot, I coined for the team, the graveyard, the garden and the gym.

24:17Tony Spring:And the graveyard is where I sent the rental project. the garden is where you don't go to pick the fruit after you plant the seeds so the things that you are piloting the things that you're testing they do not show results the next day and that's where we have to have a little bit of patience a little bit of water a little bit of tilling the soil and then the gym is where you got to go and work harder at least on the ideas at least on the communication because you obviously believe something is right but the results don't match what you believe. So I try to use the three G's whenever I can with the team, just again to say, not everything is equal.

24:54Tony Spring:Some things are time to retire them. Some things you just got started, you got to let them matriculate and other things require your intervention to try to make them work.

25:04David Novak:Is there a particular metric, Tony, that you pay attention to that most people wouldn't expect would be on your radar screen?

25:12Tony Spring:I'm known to pay attention to a lot of metrics. I unfortunately keep a lot of data in front of me, mainly to ask questions about why traffic, conversion, IPT, average unit retail, the difference between our digital and physical business, the difference between our Florida and our California business. So I am one that likes to be as informed about the business as possible. And then I put it aside and say, so what do we want to do?

25:41David Novak:And how do you instill that what do we want to do action orientation into your organization? Because when you're big, you know, and you're a big retailer for sure, you know, you can get hung up in a lot of bureaucracy and red tape.

25:56Tony Spring:I think it's the questions you ask. I think it's the discipline that you have around meetings. I think it's the disciplines you have around agendas and the time allocation to subjects. So we've gotten much better at how many topics are on the agenda. How much time are we going to spend on them? When are we going to make a decision? Who is the decision owner? You know, again, I'm not a big believer in races, but I am a big believer in meeting discipline and that we should take a few minutes at the end of the meeting to make sure we're clear on what we've decided. We walk out of the room clear on what we're trying to accomplish.

26:29Tony Spring:Because a lot of times you get a lot of nods because people don't want to look like they don't know what they're talking about and they don't agree or they're not on the same page. So we have to make sure time is too precious. We're all on the same page when we leave the room. How do you sniff out conflict? I think that's another requirement of being a leader is to suss out the person who's quiet, is to say, no, David, you haven't said much on the subject. So obviously something's on your mind. Please share it with the group. The leader has to be a facilitator. And if you're a good facilitator, you not only hear the loudest person in the room, you also hear the person that's quiet, that has something to offer that just needs to be called upon.

27:09David Novak:You mentioned you'd had the great fortune of having some really great coaches and mentors in your career. Who really believed in you when you needed it the most?

27:19Tony Spring:Mike Gould, who was the CEO of Bloomingdale's who preceded me and was the one who gave me multiple jobs in different functions and areas, always believed I had more potential than I saw in myself and encouraged me to use my intellectual curiosity, to show my heart, to be present with my family. He not only gave me so much, But I think he also considered me someone that he could give the learnings that he had in his own life to me and wanted to make sure that I benefited from those experiences.

27:53David Novak:Do you have a process that you use to keep a lookout on the up and coming stars?

28:00Tony Spring:We do coffee roundtables in the organization. When we do our talent process twice a year, we look at the entire leadership team throughout all the organizations to kind of know who's on the radar. I spend time with our interns during the summer. I spend time with our executive trainees when they join the company. I try to meet every new person that comes into the company as a part of their onboarding. And then stay abreast of in my touch bases with my direct reports, who's on your radar that I should know about what's going on in the organization that's kind of spiking up from a talent standpoint that we want to make sure that we're utilizing.

28:42David Novak:I've talked to a number of leaders who have a list that they keep in their drawer of like, you know, five to 10 people that they think they can't miss. And they really try to give them extra attention. Do you do anything like that? Or do you just try to just mine the field and, and, and, you know, get other people involved?

29:02Tony Spring:I probably know the five to 10, but I feel like it's not enough in a company of our size and scale. So I really try to mine the field as much as I can. Like we'll be going to a market, I'll go to the Southern California market. And during the travel time in cars between stores, I'll be, you know, asking lots of who's who's top of the list? Who's doing best? What are you most excited about? Who needs additional support? What kind of feedback have we given them? So I try to use the transportation time to learn as much as I can when I'm out in the field. And then, you know, in the central offices, it's walking the hallways, it's asking questions, it's inviting people.

29:40Tony Spring:I ask, bring someone to your touch base, bring one or two people. I'd love to spend more time with your team. So it isn't just a presentation, isn't just a conversation, it's also an opportunity to learn more about the function.

29:51David Novak:You know, leaders cast a shadow and, you know, the rest of the team usually follows. What's something that you do on purpose because you know the whole company is watching and taking note of what you're doing?

30:07Tony Spring:I try to, so I don't want to say that I do because I think it's conceited, but I try to ask open-ended questions. I try to make fewer declarative statements because I'm a big believer in curiosity and intellectual curiosity and querying. There's so much to be learned beyond school that happens at work, that happens in technology, that happens in cultural moments, that if we're curious about who was wearing at the Oscars and we want to know who's telling, the movie box office last weekend was incredible and wow, is Hollywood back? And why did that happen? And there's so much to be learned if you ask questions.

30:47Tony Spring:And I think it's, again, another lever that's available to everyone.

30:52David Novak:Is that the number one behavior you're trying to drive deep in your culture?

30:55Tony Spring:I think collaboration would be the other one. Yes, curiosity and open-mindedness. So beyond leading your function, you also have to be kind of a feeder for your function, asking other people for a perspective. I love the book from Pixar Imagine where, you know, you're going to make the movie as the writer and the director and the producer, but that doesn't absolve you of the responsibility to get feedback from other people. So I think how you take information is really important. The team will hear me say time again. Again, I am very open to the skeptic. I am not to the cynic. So there's a difference to me between someone who has some great sage advice, some clear-minded opinion that is different than mine, and then there's someone who's trying to sandbag or hurt something.

31:48Tony Spring:And that I'm less interested in, less tolerance for.

31:51David Novak:That's interesting because I was going to think that one of the things culturally would be important to you, and I'm sure it is, is the positive energy, because you have a lot of it. I was going to ask you, how do you handle a cynic? When you see a cynic, how long do you put up with it?

32:11Tony Spring:I hope less and less time. Again, I think you don't want to close the door to the person that is giving you devil's advocate and playing the role of giving you the alternative point of view. That to me is so different than someone who is just constantly bringing the group down and is trying to figure out how not to do something. So I have to take responsibility as the leader and to make sure that we're sussing it out and we're challenging people to, it's not naively positive. It's not a Pollyannish thing. We are trying to deliver a business based on gracious hospitality. We're trying to deliver a business where the customer is enjoying what they're doing with us.

32:54Tony Spring:We have to then lead from the heart with that intentionality across the organization.

33:00David Novak:You know, I want to take you back now, Tony, for a second, if you will. You know, growing up, what's the story that shaped the kind of leader that you are today?

33:11Tony Spring:Oh, I think, you know, having parents that cared about me. My father was a lawyer. My mother was a homemaker. She went back to work eventually as a real estate broker. But, you know, they supported both my brother and I and whatever we wanted to do. Upper middle class upbringing. So I felt very supported. And when I found my passion, I found my passion. I think my father did say to me, you need to go to college because I think at one point I was going to stay working at that Burger King. And he said, I think you should try college first. You can always go back to Burger King. do you ever have a moment where you still feel like a kid i mean it's amazing when you're a kid at heart i mean i still go into a candy store and get excited and then i think what am i doing with all this candy i'm not gonna eat this stuff but it what the thing i love about children is is the insatiable open-mindedness imagination that i'm a big believer as you you can hear in creativity and the importance of trying to bring something different than just price to the equation.

34:21Tony Spring:And children have this wonderful moment where they are not jaded by anything yet. They have not learned that they shouldn't say something that someone's going to correct them for.

34:31David Novak:Well, one of the things I did as a kid, and I still do it every year, is I just love the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade, which I think you turned 100 years old this year.

34:43Tony Spring:This is the 100th parade, not the 100th year, because we took a few years off for World War II.

34:48David Novak:Okay. All right. Well, tell me a behind-the-scenes story about the parade that most people probably have never heard.

34:55Tony Spring:It's an incredible, magical moment for the country where over 30 million people tune in and several million people come live in New York City to see something that people spent almost a year producing. And when I say producing, building the floats, building the balloons, making costumes, creating a television program and deciding what acts are going to go during what hour, 2 ,000 cans of paint, 4 ,500 different costumes, 70-foot balloons wide and tall. the amount of work is unconscionable the number of permits that we need to get in New York City the amount of hours before uh 5 a.m on the morning of Thanksgiving the team has to work to kind of orchestrate from the Lincoln Tunnel all the way to the parade route is a um it's a magical moment and it's a labor of love and it's one that I have so much respect after spending time with our welders and our craftsmen and our artists in our parade studio in New Jersey.

36:07Tony Spring:They are incredibly talented.

36:10David Novak:What's a day like for you as a CEO of the Macy's Day Parade? What's that like? What do you do?

36:16Tony Spring:We do a little press. We do a little kind of breakfast with our team, kind of a, you know, before the locker room kind of game day talk. Then we go down and visit with our friends at the Today Show. And then I sit with my wife and some friends and we watch the parade and we cheer as loud as possible.

36:35David Novak:Awesome. And, you know, this summer, I read where you're in the big red shopping bag sign came down at Macy's at your, you know, your big New York store. What was the reaction? Because I'm curious, because here you are, you're trying to modernize the brand, you know, create loyal customers. What was the reaction to that? And how'd you make that decision?

37:00Tony Spring:Well, it isn't our decision. You know, we don't own that building. So there are two small buildings as a part of the full square block of Herald Square that we don't own. That's one of them. And so the people that own the building have had a sign there that we've advertised on for years. They decided they wanted to take the sign down and put up an electronic billboard. And so, you know, it's like the passing of time. I'm one of the few people that still reads a newspaper, even though I do read the Times and the journal digitally, but things change. And so like an electronic sign replacing a poster board sign, change happens.

37:39Tony Spring:It's a nostalgic moment. We'll get a little piece of the sign and put it in our archives to go with many of the other things that are a part of the 160 some odd storied years of Macy's.

37:51David Novak:You know, and you mentioned earlier that you have this, your own podcast. You know, tell me about it and tell me about somebody you've interviewed that you really learned a lot from as you did it.

38:04Tony Spring:I interview people inside the company. I interview people outside the company. What I try to do, again, is share the story behind the story, a little bit like what you're doing today on leadership. So it's everything from the making of the Thanksgiving Day Parade, a one-on-one conversation between me and the CEO of Ralph Lauren or me and the CEO of Levi's or me and one of our board members or me going to our supply chain center or me visiting a store or me talking to our merchant team about how we put together assortments and what it's like to decide on our cashmere strategy for this year. So it's a diverse mix of subjects designed around the feedback we've had from our colleagues about what they want to learn more about.

38:54David Novak:Was there one particular interview that really had a huge impact on you?

38:59Tony Spring:Well, there are two. The first one I did, my son interviewed me. So that was hard because I didn't control the questions. And I think the audience did find it back to our conversation about how do people know I'm really a human being? How did they know that I put one sock on at a time? My son made sure they knew. And the second thing I do is I have a leadership coach who I spend time with every week. And I had my leadership coach interview me. And it was so good we made it into two episodes because he got me to peel back the onion even further.

39:38David Novak:Oh, that's great. And what's the biggest thing you've uncovered working with him?

39:43Tony Spring:He's a big believer in responsibility and the idea that we have the ability to respond, not responsibility that we all have a lot on our plate. And this idea that we have agency and that so much is how we choose to bring ourselves to a conversation, how we are aware of the moods and the attitudes of people that come into a meeting, somebody just lost their dog, somebody is running late because their child is sick at home. It's like everybody brings something into the room. If you step back for a second and are aware, you can help the room be more productive. You yourself can be more effective.

40:24Tony Spring:And I think he's done a great job with me on both self-awareness and in helping the team practice the art of responsibility, the ability to respond. You should feel everything. You don't have to say everything. You know, say more on that.

40:42David Novak:The feeling versus saying, that's interesting.

40:46Tony Spring:Well, part of his model is suppression is a very unhealthy thing. And a lot of times we hold back and you know, you know, my dad could get upset. He would wait till something, you know, really, really bothered him. And then he would be very hostile. And I think what my coaches taught me is make sure you feel when you feel, and then you decide based on audience appropriate, what you want to say, but don't miss the opportunity. Cause if you don't feel it, you're pushing it down. And ultimately it's going to come back out in some way, shape or form that is not necessarily you at your best.

41:19David Novak:Shifting back to the, to, to the business and your, and your strategies, you mentioned AI, AI a little bit earlier. You know, how are you leading from that front?

41:28Tony Spring:So I'm a big believer in the importance of humanity and technology. So I'm going to tell you it's end, not an or. And so we have a AI program that supports the bold new chapter. We don't have an AI strategy. We have a bold new chapter strategy that is powered by our belief in the importance of AI. We divide it into three segments. We have probably over now a hundred different proof of concepts, some that have to be retired, some that have to be scaled. But they're basically a third, a third, a third, David, a third that are revenue generating, a third that are designed to make it easier for our customers or easier for our colleagues.

42:09Tony Spring:And then a third that are focused on efficiency and how quickly we can do things with less money. How are you using AI to help you do your job better? You know, I'm putting speeches into AI. I am using an AI coach that we also rolled out to our leaders as a pilot this year, just to see the difference in terms of, you know, things that you want to have a conversation with a direct report. The AI coach can kind of take on the persona and help you kind of refine the language you might want to use. And well, lo and behold, the conversation is far more effective. So that's certainly one way. I'm using it to try to refine my messaging to my team, just going through working on some feedback forms.

42:59Tony Spring:And I start, because I don't like to turn over the entire thing to AI, but I then give prompts and get to a place where I think the content is frankly better.

43:10David Novak:A lot of people that I talk to that are maximizing AI, they really believe that in their culture, they're going to have to teach people how to ask better questions. What's your thinking on that?

43:23Tony Spring:I agree 100%. And by the way, shouldn't we have been doing that all along? So great questions lead to really interesting answers. And as a reporter, as someone who does a podcast, if you don't ask the question, it's really hard then to get an answer. So I think prompts are just another way for us to return to being better communicators. And, you know, I know we each experienced something different during the pandemic. The thing that was the hardest, I think, on not only our business, but our people was the loss of human connection. And I think we are still trying to navigate the, I want to have a life and I want to embrace the flexibility that technology and shopping at home and virtual reality.

44:10Tony Spring:And there's so many things that we can do, but nothing replaces being with someone you love, going someplace you love, eating something you love. And so how does then the use of tools help me to do more of that? How does it help me to change my time allocation?

44:27David Novak:You're right on it. And this has been so much fun. You know, I've learned a lot just in this conversation. And I want to have a little bit more fun with my lightning round of questions here. So are you ready for this? I am ready. The three words your team would use to describe you? Passionate, curious, and open. If you could be one person for a day beside yourself, who would it be?

44:50Tony Spring:Abraham Lincoln. Your biggest pet peeve? People that talk over other people. Who would play you in a movie? I've had people joke and tell me it could be Rob Lowe on the positive side, it could be Rick Moranis on people who are being sarcastic.

45:05David Novak:What's a habit you have that's been instrumental to the success that you've had?

45:12Tony Spring:I'm pretty good at time management. The best Broadway show you've seen in the past couple years? Well, I'm on the board of Lincoln Center Theater, so I have to plug Ragtime, which just won some Tony's, and that was quite amazing.

45:25David Novak:Your favorite restaurant in New York City when we go there?

45:29Tony Spring:That is really tough, too. So my favorite restaurant in New York City is Hutang, a Chinese restaurant, Uptown.

45:37David Novak:What's something you've been curious about lately that has absolutely nothing to do with work?

45:42Tony Spring:I'm constantly curious about politics. So I can talk less about politics at work. I can barely talk about it at home. But I am very curious about where the world is going.

45:53David Novak:The one thing that you do just for you?

45:56Tony Spring:Play games, read. You know, I like escape time, so I will find that isolation moment. It doesn't have to be long, but I like to do something by myself.

46:08David Novak:Besides your family and friends, what's your most prized possession?

46:13Tony Spring:I was honored by the American Jewish Committee, and I have an original copy of a Winston Churchill book.

46:20David Novak:If I turned on the radio in your car, what would I hear?

46:24Tony Spring:Well, you probably used to hear Howard Stern when I was driving. I'm not driving anymore. So now it could be the news, I don't know, News 880 in New York, or I could be listening to CNN or Fox News. That's another one of my habits is I do like to listen to everybody. So I'm not jaded by one definition. What's something about you that few people would know? I eat ice cream every night. That is true. But I've told I've told the team that it is a vice that I am having trouble giving up. Certainly as my cholesterol went up and as my weight has gained. But I feel like, you know, God, one life, ice cream is so good.

47:01Tony Spring:How can I not have it every day?

47:03David Novak:Well, I think you just answered my last question in the lightning round was, what's one of your daily rituals something that you never miss? Ice cream.

47:13Tony Spring:Alden's ice cream. I have to plug Alden's.

47:16David Novak:That's great. Okay, we're out of the lightning round. Just a few more questions here and I'll let you go. So, you know, how do you think about leadership at home, Tony?

47:25Tony Spring:Look, I am very fortunate to have an incredible wife who is not only a great mother, a great wife, but great sounding board. So she will be a source of inspiration for me. She'll be a source of calm for me. And she's done an amazing job helping raise our two boys. I'm very proud of both of them. Uh, and I, she reminded me that I could do anything, but I can't do everything. So I, I was at almost every concert at every parent teacher night at many of their ball games. I sometimes came with mail, I'll admit it. Um, but I was paying attention most of the time, but no, I will seriously say to my team, you can't do everything.

48:15Tony Spring:And you have to be honest. If you're, if you're really all in, you can't do everything, but you can do anything. And if parent-teacher night is important, if being there when your first day of school, if you've got an issue at home, we need to show greater flexibility to let people be successful in life in the fullest sense of the word. But you also have to be honest as the leader, as the individual, you can't be in two places at one time. What has your family taught you about leadership that Macy's never could?

48:42David Novak:Was it that?

48:43Tony Spring:Oh, you don't control everything. I mean, I think, again, when I started out, I was like going to work and going to do. And as I rose in responsibility and leadership, then I was directing more people and more strategy and people would listen to what I say. It's like, no, you just maybe have a louder voice. You have a different series of initials next to your name. But everybody comes to the table with a personality, with a point of view, with ideas. and my kids did not always listen to my advice. Sometimes they completely ignored what I had to say. So it was a good lesson for what leadership was like at work.

49:21David Novak:What do you see, Tony, as your unfinished business? Not only at Macy's, but for yourself personally.

49:26Tony Spring:I obviously wanna make sure that Macy's best days are still ahead of us. Macy's Inc., Macy's, Bloomingdale's, Blue Mercury is an incredible retail franchise. If I didn't own the stock, I'd buy the stock. If I didn't work for the company, I'd want to work for the company. It's a place where you can go from being a colleague on the sales floor to running the company one day. That's the opportunity. I want to make sure that this business is around to support many, many, many more generations to come. It thrills me to see the number of people that come to us when a baby is born, the number of people that come to us for a prom dress, the number of people that come to us to buy a watch because they want an analog watch now for graduation.

50:08Tony Spring:It's a wonderful feeling. but I want, you know, relevancy is a funny thing. You have to be relevant in the timeframe you're in. So if I was selling black and white TVs, I wouldn't be very relevant today. So you really got to keep re-examining your assortments, making sure you're doing everything that's necessary, that people are, what people are wearing, how they're acting, how they're living, what their homes look like. That's going to ensure our greatest and our brightest future. And then personally, I want to make sure that I'm giving back. So whether it's the boards that I'm on with Lincoln Center, or with the NRF, our retail federation foundation or the hospital special surgery here in New York, or my son was diagnosed with juvenile diabetes when he was seven and I was on the juvenile diabetes board for 25 years.

50:54Tony Spring:I wanna make sure that I'm doing what I can with the position that I have to give back to the next generation, to give back to people that are not as fortunate as I have been in my life.

51:06David Novak:That's great. You know, and speaking of diabetes, my late wife was a type 1 diabetic, and we have the Wendy Novak Diabetes Institute in Louisville, and we're trying to do everything we can to find a cure and help people deal with pregnancy and deal with sports. But, you know, we've made a lot of progress, but there's more to be made. So thank you for everything you're doing on that front as well.

51:29Tony Spring:Now, thank you for doing your part, too. Again, it's one day, one step closer. And people sometimes don't realize that you're living with diabetes. There's no cure. And there's a daily regimen that you're describing between what you eat, the exercise, and the insulin you take. Thank God there is a pump today and more science. But it's not easy for those people, not just kids.

51:54David Novak:Absolutely. And I always say when it comes to diabetes, you never get a day off. And you know what I'm talking about there. All right, last question here. What's one piece of advice you'd give to anyone who wants to be a better leader?

52:11Tony Spring:Two ears, one mouth. The line I give to everybody is hit the ground listening. When you join our company, everybody's telling people to hit the ground running. I'm like, do not, I'll cut your legs off. Hit the ground listening. Honeymoons come once. You wanna learn. This is your time. No one's expecting anything. You actually have the clearest view when you come into the company. And by the way, the clearest view means you don't have the right answer because you don't know enough and you see things that we've stopped seeing. Keep a little journal. So hit the ground listening.

52:42David Novak:I love it. I love it. Well, I have to tell you, Tony, I've been very inspired by this conversation. I really believe positive energy lifts you up and you've got a lot of it. And I'm sure people love working with you. So thanks for taking the time to be on the show.

52:56Tony Spring:Thank you for having me. It was a lot of fun.

53:05David Novak:David, when that conversation ended, you said, wow, he has a lot of positive energy. And it's so true what you said. His positive energy has really lifted me up. It's so refreshing to have somebody with such positive energy just come in and have a great conversation. That was awesome. Well, he loves his job. He loves his people. He loves the brands. And, you know, he wants to make a difference. at Macy's and in the world, which is terrific. I, like we do every conversation, David, am excited to get your thoughts on some of the key things and topics that just really stood out to me throughout this conversation with you and Tony.

53:42David Novak:The first one is that thought that he shared at the very end of the episode. He tells his employees to hit the ground listening when they start their career at Macy's. And I just love that. I like that it's a play on that phrase we always hear, hit the ground running, but it really reinforces the importance of having two ears and one mouth. What did you like about that? Oh, I loved it because, you know, you need to listen before you run, you know, and I think every leader needs to recognize when you take on a new role, you've got the opportunity to have fresh eyes. And the best way to get the best insights is to truly listen.

54:20David Novak:And, you know, I've had people give me advice and I give others the same advice that you really need to develop a 90 day plan. You know, when you take on a new job, that you use 90 days to really listen and understand what the heck's going on before you sit down at the piano and write out the song. And, you know, so I think he's right on there. You talk about, David, doing that listening tour. What are some of your favorite go-to questions that you tell people to ask during those first 90 days to really get the full picture of what's going on in the business? I always ask, what are you hearing from customers?

55:00David Novak:Okay. What do you think we should be doing that we're not doing? And one thing I always asked was, what do you think I need to do? I mean, how can I best support you? and I found that when you're in the positions of power, you need to ask that question more than once, okay? So when you ask somebody what they would do if they were you, they'll usually say nothing, okay? So ask it again, they'll usually say nothing and then ask it another time and they'll probably begin to give you an idea or two that maybe you really need to hear. So I think you really, really must let people know that you want to hear from them.

55:46David Novak:Okay. And along those lines, I like the fact that he differentiated between a skeptic or someone who has a wise counsel based on experience versus a cynic who's basically trying to derail whatever you have going along. And so I think he's really got a good handle on the importance of listening and and understanding and being curious. Yeah, I agree. Another thing that really stood out to me was the part of the conversation where he talked about feeling everything, not saying everything. And I love that because it kind of plays into what we talk about a lot on this show, which is the importance of self-awareness and how you respond in situations real time.

56:32David Novak:What stood out to you about that discussion, David? Well, you know, I think it's an interesting way to think about, you know, how you should interact with others is that, you know, you need to share your feelings when you feel them. Don't bottle them up. Don't wait and wait and wait and then have this huge eruption. But, you know, when you feel something, let your team know what you're feeling. Okay. and so that you can address it together. And, you know, a lot of times people think about what they need to say, but they don't really think about how they're feeling and how they need to convey that message.

57:17David Novak:And I think when you share your feelings, you do what everybody is talking about as a major trait in successful leaders is that you open up, you're vulnerable, you're an open book. and, you know, I think being an open book is really powerful as a leader. You just don't, you know, have to have all the answers all the time and talk all the time and say this and say that, you know, you can be honest and share the feelings that you have. I like that he shared too, you know, sometimes in situations you feel really charged about something and it kind of takes a second to cool off and really figure out how you want to communicate what you're feeling to your team.

58:00David Novak:So what I love about that is that it says to people that it's okay to take a second and to calm down and to really understand how you can communicate what you're feeling in a way that'll be most effective for whatever you're trying to do. And I'm curious, David, if there's a time in your career where, you know, you're faced with a lot of pressure and you might've not agreed with somebody and your first instinct was to just say everything that was on your, on your mind, How do you manage that stress in scenarios like that? I think that's one of the things I struggle with. I'm a high feeling person.

58:34David Novak:So if I'm feeling something, it's very hard for me to not share it. Okay. And, you know, I think I needed to and have learned how to and need to continue to think about how to temper my feelings. You know, I was recently in a meeting where, you know, I felt like the team wasn't being acknowledged enough for the tremendous progress that they'd made. And, you know, that feeling came out, you know, through, you know, me saying how I truly felt about it, which I think generated a lot of respect because of my honesty. and it opened up a few people's eyes. But I have to tell you, when I look back at it, I think I could have done it better because I got a little bit too emotional.

59:29David Novak:Okay, use language that maybe I shouldn't have used. But I made the point. And I think the fact that I did and the fact I've always done that has been one of the things that's made me an effective leader because people know what they see is what they get. Absolutely. It's so refreshing. At least part of the time, Cool. At least part of the time. I'm not saying I'm effective all the time, but I do try. It is so refreshing to be in an environment where you never have to guess how the other person feels or what they're thinking. David, another theme that stood out to me is Tony's obsession with hospitality.

1:00:10David Novak:He talked about being at Cornell in their hospitality school and how he tries to weave that into the company that he's leading at Macy's. I'm curious as a leader, I mean, you were in the food industry, but as leaders of really any industry, how should we be thinking about hospitality and how to weave that into our interactions with our customers? I think take pride in whatever you're a part of. And I love his analogy of think about what you're doing as your home. Okay. You know, do you welcome people when they come to your home? Is your house cleaned up when they come? Do you, you know, is this something that you take care of or not?

1:00:54David Novak:Is this something you constantly want to improve? Keep up to date? You know, I think that that home visual or home story is one that works for any business. So take pride of home ownership in whatever business you're in. I love the example that he shared around the feedback he got from customers saying that the dressing rooms just were messy and they didn't like going in there. And he talked about, like, if the dressing rooms where they're looking at the items that they want to purchase aren't in good condition, then they're not going to be willing to purchase the thing that they're trying on.

1:01:32David Novak:And he talked about how he led his team through enhancing that experience. And he mentioned that, you know, conversation leads to conversion. So I just love that little thought around, you know, if you're interacting with a customer, it's really easy to not start a conversation, but it's also really easy to start a conversation. And usually that leads to a great experience overall, and hopefully for your business, a conversion. And I just love that little tidbit. I mean, I'll think about, you know, our customers being listeners of the podcast. We don't interact with them face to face, but it's an interesting thing to think about.

1:02:05David Novak:You know, how could we start conversation with them so that they become more engaged with the content that we're pushing out? I just love that little phrase. Well, Dale Carnegie, who's, you know, the greatest salesman that ever lived, you know, said the best way to really, you know, make a sale is to get people to talk about themselves. and so if you're actually showing interest in other people they'll take an interest in you and you know i think that's what he means about you know having that having that relationship and and that's why he thinks hospitality is so important it's it's that you know when you get out the credit card he talked about you they somebody hands you the credit book card you see their name so you say hey thank you cool i really appreciate you spending that two thousand dollars on that dress.

1:02:55David Novak:So that's really nice of you. Can I buy, can I get you, can I show you another one? Unfortunately, the answer to that question is usually like yes, when I'm asked it. So somebody's doing a good job of being hospitable at the checkout. Great. Well, I think in the end here, there were a lot of great insights in this podcast, but you know, hit the ground listening is terrific. Feel everything, you know, share your feelings, You know, don't just talk, but share your feelings and why. And then, you know, think about hospitality. Take pride in home ownership in whatever business that you have. I think those are three really good takeaways that anyone can walk away with and use from this conversation.

1:03:40David Novak:I love it. Well, David, thank you so much for another episode of How Leaders Lead. Thank you, Tony Spring, for joining us and sharing your insights with our listeners. and thank you to our listeners for tuning in to How Leaders Lead. We will see you next week.