#307: Clark Lea, Head Football Coach, Vanderbilt – Belief is a practice

23:51And we have to have a shift in personnel because, you know, ultimately, without that level of alignment, the losing attitude persists. We have very specific staff principles around this and kind of value statements that we, you know, that we use intentionally because, you know, I understood how challenging it was going to be. Again, what you don't realize is not just how the world perceives us, but it's how we're perceived locally. It's how we're perceived on campus. It's how we're perceived in the Nashville community. And you have to obviously focus internally to have any chance for ripple effect outside of the building.

24:35But certainly, you know, until you can change the local attitudes, you got no chance of influencing the bigger picture. And so all of that stuff becomes a part of the fight and honestly a part of the fun, too.

24:50David Novak:Yeah, you know, a lot of leaders, when they come into situations like yours, they do something to basically shock the system. You know, let people know there's a new sheriff in town. You know, was there something when you look back, when you say, this is what I did, where everybody says, oh, it's going to be a little different around here? Yeah, I mean, I think if you asked our team, I think they would tell you every day was that. I mean, I believe that they, you know, the experience they had was just, it was totally, it was a total transformation. I will say that we had a, you know, after about a month of messaging and before we started spring practice, we had a really challenging workout at the end of February.

25:33And then we had this ceremonious start. So the idea was we were going to get together and after, again, a really hard workout in the stadium at night under the lights, we were going to we were going to then talk about where the program needs to go, where it is, where it needs to go. So I split the team up into eight teams. I had each team nominate a spokesperson and I asked them to come up with three things that were player driven that have held the program back in its past. And so they came up, each group came up with three that gave us 24. I had them, you know, the spokesperson get up, read it.

26:12And then we had like this literal garbage can fire on the field. And it was, you know, it was lit. And so then they'd read it and they'd burn it and release it to the past. I then had them go back in their teams and come up with, you know, three things they were willing to do to change. Had to be player driven. been this couldn't be anything about play calls or anything like that um so they they came up with three things they were willing to to commit to to change and that gave us 24 i sent the spokes people into the locker room the rest of the team stood at attention on the field with the lights off there was a spotlight on the midfield logo it's very dramatic i was just trying to create some semblance some psychological break it's like yeah you know what we were before and what we are now after this moment are two different things.

27:01And you know, what was really, really neat, those eight leaders took 24 things and condensed them to five that became our covenants. So that we really held near and dear for five years, I retired them last year, because we live them out now, we don't have to spend, but this used to be the first thing someone had to learn coming in the program where the five covenants had to know them, I could call on you at any point in time, you had to be able to recite them. And so, you know, this, this was an example of a group of people who had experienced something, who knew how to articulate where change needed to come, but really struggled to practice or to actualize that through through behaviors.

27:45And so the identifying the problems and the solutions isn't the hard part. It's, it's how we live those out every single day that become, and so that they become our identity, there's where the real challenge is. And that's, that's ultimately what takes the time to go from what we were to, to what we are now.

28:03David Novak:I love that. And, you know, I've heard this and I just love this phrase, which is you say belief is a practice, which begs the question, you know, how do you practice belief? I was here as a coach and I listened to, um, common spoke at our, um, to a, to like a student group. And I went and listened. And this phrase belief is a practice I pulled directly from his remarks and what he was talking about in his in his career as a rapper as a performer early on, you meet way more nos than you meet yeses. And so, you know, he was having to spend a ton of time selling CDs out of the trunk of his car. And there was no indication that he was going to be successful.

28:47And really, there was there was no one outside of himself that, you know, that, that felt like you'd become anything, but he had this belief within himself. And that's what, that's why he kept recording music. That's why he kept selling out of his trunk of his car. That's where he'd go anywhere and everywhere to perform and to, to, to practice his craft. And so it resonated with me so much, because the head coach at Vanderbilt, I get everyone's best, you know, self. So everyone wants to say the right things, do the right things around me. But really what happens away from my eyes becomes everything in building the program.

29:29And it also reveals like what their true belief is. And so you can apply this to anything. You know, how many people are willing to speak their dreams or their goals, but they're not really willing to do the work? I think it's very easy for us to carry these symbols of success around or statements of success. I want to go to the NFL. I want to win a national championship. But then we turn around and we do work that reveals that we don't actually know that we have a chance to do that. So belief is a practice. This is not a feeling. It's not an emotion. It's not a dream. team. It is literally what you're doing reflects what you believe possible in the endeavor that you're taking on.

30:15And so as the coach at Vanderbilt, that means I don't need a team that's the best trash talking team in the country. I need the team that's the hardest working team in the country, because what you are literally willing to sacrifice for this program and its effort to win, and that's our mission, is winning, will tell me how much you believe that the dreams we have as a program are possible. Belief is a practice.

30:42David Novak:You obviously had this strong belief, this incredible belief that you could turn the program around and you could have the kind of success you're now having. What were the smaller signals early on that gave you confidence that you were headed in the right direction? And how did you celebrate them with the team? Yeah, well, they certainly weren't results. So, you know, it was little behaviors, little actions, people taking the smallest of message and applying it and it getting back to me. I'll tell you, like early on, I mean, and again, there's a group of players that were with us in year one that I certainly wouldn't be here without them.

31:26Their willingness to see this program as something different meant the world and made all the difference. But one of the things that comes with losing, again, go back to this kind of a plaque that covers everything, is you start to change the way you interact with the world. I think, you know, from a standpoint of confidence or even a standpoint of like, hey, I'm proud of what I represent. And so, you know, we talk about the limits of the community or the circle that we create here as a program and where belonging is a part of being in that circle. That's not the end of self. It's the start of the full expression of self.

32:08And so what I mean by that is the standards and behaviors that we identify membership in this program with, so the things that we choose to do and choose not to do, are restrictive. They are representative of sacrifice. But we believe the space within that circle is the space for full expression of who you are. And so I would watch these guys, how they would interact with the community, interact with each other. You know, like something as simple as I can remember a group of players when I when I first got here, this would have been maybe the first couple of months. I'm standing in the hallway with with Earl Bennett, who was serving in a player development role.

32:52He now serves in a departmental GM role for us. and it was his wife and his daughter were standing there with us. Earl and I were talking. You know, I'm the head coach of the program. And again, that doesn't put me on any kind of pedestal, but this is early in and we're all looking to make good impressions. Earl is an essential part of the program. Also, a former Vanderbilt player who had incredible success in college, went on to great success in the NFL. And his family's there. So again, trying to create an appreciation with the players of the sacrifice a coach makes. We're not victimized by it.

33:28But, you know, when we have opportunity to engage with families and to bring them in and to make them feel apart, we do this with player families, too. We want this to feel like a community. Well, this group of players was in conversation that honestly was a little too loud. I mean, we were in shared space at this point. So a little too loud, a little too colorful. and they walked directly past us. No eye contact, no hello, no acknowledgement of Earl's wife, his kids, none of it. And so I ran after him down the hallway and I brought him back and I had him, you know, shake hands with Earl's wife and introduce themselves.

34:06And again, it's an example of, not of the character of these players, these kids. It's just, hey, what are the standards and behaviors that represent membership here? And do you understand how important you are? Like, I think sometimes their instinct is, hey, because we haven't had results, because it hasn't been whatever, they pull back and they withdraw. Where what we need for them to do is understand how important they are to step in and engage. And so as I started to see those interactions change, I realized that we were on the right track. And part of finding results for me was not actually deviating from those standards and behaviors.

34:48It was how we made systems adjustments around those so that we were tactically weaponized and we were more effective as a football team as a result.

34:58David Novak:Hello, friends. I hope you're loving this conversation. Be sure to stay tuned to the very end of the episode. As always, David and I are going to debrief some of the concepts that he talks about with this week's guest. So stay tuned to the very end and I will see you soon. You know, Clark, you go two and 10 your first year, then five and seven, great progress. Then you go back to two and 10. How did you maintain your beliefs and values in the face of that decline? line? Yeah. So, so year one was really hard. Year one was like, you know, the, the ultimate and cold plunge where you're like, oh my God, you wake up to the reality of the task, the magnitude of the task.

35:41Year two felt like a real breakthrough, but here's the reality of that second season. We, I think there were three games that we lost to combine like 155 to three. So we went at Georgia, at Alabama, Tennessee at home. And I mean, the distance between us and the top of the league was dramatic. Now, that little uptick in success lied to me about doubling down on systems and process. And so I wasn't skilled enough yet to kind of really be able to kind of take a big picture view of, hey, this is, you know, this is what we're doing offensively, defensively, in terms of special teams. I thought that another win would come just out of doing the same stuff over.

36:23And so I missed on some things at the same time. There was this breaking of the team where some of the old experienced players leave. We didn't have NIL systems at the time. So we weren't able to retain guys that went on to, you know, leaders that went on to free agent grades in the NFL. We were desperate to take that next step. So we hung on to productive players that didn't necessarily fit our program. And we were trying to grow in year three young leaders from the kids, the players that we had recruited. and it kind of mixed together for this, this formula that was, you know, we, we were underperforming on, on the field as a football team, but we did not have the fiber in the locker room to withstand the struggle of kind of a season that was going to be challenging from the start.

37:10And so I think in a lot of ways in year three, it, it, I mean, it broke, you know, I mean, I, I not, not to go all the way into it. But I mean, there was a point in time in that fall where I had a basically a closed door meeting with the team, instead of practicing on the week that was supposed to be senior week, addressing this, this rot that had grown internally. And, you know, I mean, I don't know much, but but I know for us to win here, there has to be identity, there has to be competitive character, we have to care about each other. And when those things aren't showing up, there's no chance.

37:42And so how did I, you know, withstand it all? I mean, certainly I'm supported at home by my wife, Alice and my children. That was huge. I needed a place sometimes to go and to vomit everything out. Yeah, there's certainly been there. Yeah. Oh, yeah. They're really important staff members here that were that again, I, you know, that in my worst moments, They were with me and able to help me kind of, I think of Ben Carlton in particular, just rather than, you know, spiral out of control, which you realize how quickly you can do that in these leadership positions. You know, he helped me, you know, really maintain perspective and keep a long term approach, even though in the moment you just want to triage everything.

38:28And then, you know, honestly, our athletic director, Candice Lee, is the best leader I've ever been around. When I was at my worst, she was at her best. Total partner in those moments. never once came down the hall and said, you got to, you got to fix this. Always was how do we, you know, how can I support you? Hey, and she would point out the small wins, you know, which is just such a gift. But I kept coming back to this in the, in the lowest moments, you know, what, what it really shifted from, you know, how do I win at Vanderbilt to like, what am I learning? what am I learning from this experience that's helping me grow?

39:07And as I grow, I'm going to give the program a chance to grow. And that really became the point. And if you think about things that way, you realize that your breakthroughs are actually a result of these critical learning moments that if you spend too much time licking your wounds, you miss them. And that's where you really learned that while you obviously had the role as a head coach,

39:29David Novak:You had to release the power to make it happen with your coaches and your team and then hold them accountable for it. That's exactly right. Yeah. And, you know, you're competing in the toughest conference in the country in football. I mean, the SEC has tons of money. Every team is fighting for, you know, NIL, Portal, you know, I mean, you've got all. It's a whole different game out there, which I'm sure you alluded to when you're talking about how you coaches get together and talk about the issues that you have to deal with. You just can't have a team build it. You can lose your best player the next year.

40:07David Novak:You know, that's really tough stuff. But you have to have money, you know. And, you know, you're at Vanderbilt and you're not Georgia. You're not Alabama. You're not LSU. You know, how do you think about raising the money it takes to compete in the SEC? Yeah, you know, it's funny. I like one thing that I'm also not as a fundraiser, you know, that never cut my chops. I can communicate what I need. I'm putting trust in people that know how to do that and do it really effectively. But what we've been able to do is I've always had my doors open here. I felt like because there were these little special things that were coming to life within the program that weren't always showing up in results.

40:49I felt like the more I could give people an inside glimpse into who we were and what we were doing and who our players were and what they were about, that that would be inspirational for people to get involved. And involvement to be can certainly be an IL. But my ask, honestly, early on was just, you know, show up for the games, please. And let's let's create an energy and excitement around the program together. And so what's happened is, you know, and this is really a credit to Candice, because in a moment where I think so many people were pulling back and gosh, was it would have been easy coming out of 23 to say, you know, hey, look, this hasn't built to a point where we want to invest in it.

41:31But, you know, she took the opposite approach. I believe in my coach. I believe in the direction of the program. I know he needs, and we had an honest conversation around this. I know he needs resources. And I had told her specifically that if we didn't get those resources, we weren't going to have a team. Because it was becoming really apparent that this is where the world was going. And what did you ask for, Clark?

41:51David Novak:What did you ask her for? In January of 23. So we're in the winter of 23. we're heading into the hardest year that we've had here really. And I asked for$3 million. I said, if we don't have$3 million by the end of season, we're not going to have a team. And I'm going to tell you that in one week in December, that number doubled, you know, and that's just, that's the nature of where we are. And I do think we were doing things experientially here that were really positive and drew people back. and the guys that believed before this evidence, you know, there was such a powerful core of people that stayed with us.

42:31And then there were a lot of guys that left. And I think there was something healthy about that in that moment too. But that gave way to us, you know, going out, you know, this financial investment gave way to us going out and getting players like Eli Stowers, like Diego Pavia, like Cordes Sidnor, like Zalen Wood. I could go on and on and on. that became kind of this core, you know, of the next couple of years, which became our breakthrough years. So Candace has never batted an eye. She's never said no. She's never, you know, she'll, she'll ask questions and she's very strategic that way. But she, she's a fearless leader who understands part of leading right now is you always feel suspended out over the abyss.

43:19You You know, it's just like inevitable. That's how you feel. I'm lucky to have her because she's not afraid to live life that way.

43:26David Novak:It's suspended out over the abyss. You got to feel that now because you've done it. I mean, at least the first part of your goal has definitely happened. You had your first 10-win season ever at Vanderbilt, which is an amazing feat. How much pressure do you feel now? Oh, well, I mean, I feel pressure internally. I mean, I, you know, honestly, I just I've just kind of grown numb to anything outside our building. So I want to be really good for, you know, this program, for Candice, for the chancellor, for our players. I want to win for all the people that have had a vision for this, had the courage to believe in it before it became anything that have worked to actualize it.

44:09And I love the fact that the work that we have can ripple out into a community and create this really cool, you know, partnership with with Nashville, with Vanderbilt alums and Vanderbilt fans. And yet, you know, those people respond to what we do internally. And so the pressure I feel is about what we've done and what I believe we can do. And this idea that we're not there yet. But I want very badly to be a part of a group that takes the next step. And that's all the motivation I need. Anything beyond that, I think, for me personally, becomes unnecessary added weight. And, you know, there's only so many opinions here that actually matter.

44:52But I want to be able to look at myself in the mirror and say, we are doing the things that we need to do to win a national championship. I also know that success is seldom linear. that we're not guaranteed results. And we have to, whatever comes, we have to be ready to attack and respond to it. But also I've got a team that believes, I believe deeply in what we can do. And now it's about showing up and playing every Saturday to a level that represents Vanderbilt football.

45:20David Novak:You know, I was really intrigued by the fact that early on you brought your players together. You had that big night, you know, and, you know, with the throwing all the bad behaviors in the trash can and burning it, then, you know, coming back and having your players say, hey, this is what we need to do. And then you broke it down into five key behaviors, you know. And, you know, without going into those five behaviors, I want to ask you about something that you said that I found was very surprising because you're a big believer in culture and all the great companies, all the great leaders make that their number one priority is that you've got to have the culture.

45:55David Novak:You're never going to get the results. but you said you don't really have to talk about those anymore. That kind of surprised me because, you know, you got new players coming in all the time. I mean, you seem like you'd have to just be burning and that in people's brains forevermore. I mean, what have you learned as a leader that would say, hey, okay, hey, I don't really need to do that anymore. Culture to me is the makeup of what I'm a part of. And I want to be proud of what I'm a part of. And so culture isn't a pathway to results for me. It's like, again, it's the full expression of the heart and the character and the soul of a group of people that have come together to do something bigger than any one of us.

46:39That, if it gives way to results, awesome. Obviously, we'll celebrate those like crazy. But at the end of the day, I know that if we've done that right, I'm going to be proud of the things that we've done together. And that gives me peace of mind. And I don't want that to sound passive because we talk very, very clearly about winning here and what winning football requires of us. It's just independent when in 2023 came and I wasn't proud of the way the team represented the program. And again, when I say that, that's not a reflection of them. It's a reflection of me. So what are the things that we are going to make sure are done correctly?

47:21year. And that's where like anything but fake comes into play. When you talk about the covenants and what we retired specifically, and I don't mind sharing those. I mean, True Brotherhood was the first one, which I think when I saw that written, I thought remarkable because writing True Brotherhood and not just brotherhood is the recognition of fake brotherhood. Like there's something really deep and profound about the way they framed that because of what they had experienced here. So So true brotherhood was first, pride in everything we do. And so this was the idea that anything that had our logo on it, we were going to take great pride in, which again was an indicator of what we realized was a gap that we had to close here because we didn't have a lot of pride in what we were doing.

48:05Earn it every day was the third, which was just about, you know, removing entitlement from the program. Player to player accountability was the fourth, which just was an openness to being coached and critiqued. You know, in fact, one of the subnotes that they wrote on the sheet was like, take the coaching and the criticism. Like there was a real aversion to feedback here. And then the fifth one was recycle positive energy, which was just about the existence of negative energy and how crippling that was. So when you think about those five things, they're very fundamental. And I don't take those for granted.

48:42We don't leave those. We just don't force feed them anymore because it is so organic to who this program is and what we're about. And so I've chosen to move past those and to create a little more granular, just change subtly the way we view the things we do day in, day out. And that was the confidence I had to kind of say, this exists here. Now let's go build further. Let's go build deeper. Let's change a little bit in how we're carving out our foundation.

49:13David Novak:So winning now is winning now is the you've arrived in the sense that you're a winning program. It's the expectation. We know what the five things are, but I'm not going to make you play them back to me like you're, you know, I respect you as an individual for buying into this program. So like rather than talk about true brotherhood, we talk about relatedness. And relatedness is a word for us that means, again, it's it's it's creating the boundaries of membership in our program. It's creating belonging for, you know, our teammates and for ourselves. It's being willing to be seen for who we are, like unguarded, without propping up facades, knowing that if we're to be seen for who we are, we're to see others for who they are, too.

49:58I think that's really, I mean, it's bringing all the human elements of connection to this. I think it's a lot of what doesn't exist for us in society now. We have other things that are principles of our program, but this true brotherhood, pride in everything we do, earn it every day, player-to-player accountability, recycle positive energy, those things are so fundamental that it's almost like once you've kind of reached that. Now, you know, a year from now, two years from now, we may backtrack. We may take a few of those. We may, you know, I think you always leave yourself room to adjust. It just felt like we were ready for 200-level thinking rather than 100-level thinking.

50:37David Novak:Clark, you talk about something that I really find interesting is that you've mentioned membership. You've mentioned membership three or four times in this conversation. You're a member, okay? What does that mean? I guess you live by the, you tell me what it means. Yeah. So, I mean, look, you know, we're all tied together in this. So, again, relatedness would be pre-strategic. This is about creating something that we're proud of, that we have co-ownership in. And I'm a part of that, but I'm only a small part. I mean, this is about players and staff, choices and behaviors and actions. And once you awaken to this idea that what I do impacts the people I love, it shifts the way you view every decision you make.

51:33Membership in our program is about being a caretaker of this experience. It's about understanding, again, my investment, my sacrifice, my ability to suffer and respond. Those are things that I contain within me that I focus on being at my very best in those areas. And the expectation is that the people next to me are doing the same. If they're not, we're falling short of that circle or that membership that represents what Vanderbilt football is. And listen, this is a value. I mean, this is a battle that everyone in the country is fighting right now is how do you build something of value? And I'm not talking about monetary value.

52:20I'm talking about impact. I'm talking about purpose in a world of transaction. You know, it's trying to bring to the surface these kind of ancient things, right? These rituals, these rites of passage that were so formative and celebrated that included struggle and sacrifice and pain and loss. You know, what is choice? It's death. When you choose one thing, you eliminate millions of others. Well, we believe membership is about channeling your choices. Again, in a world where I can be a million things, I'm choosing to be one. If that's an elite football coach, that means there's certain specific things that I have to have in my routine to uphold the standards that allow me to be an elite coach.

53:04If I'm going to demand our players to sacrifice and be accountable to their behaviors in the building and outside the building, to be the coach of this program, I have to model that in my own way. That doesn't mean I'm pushing sleds, although I'd love to do that. I just, you know, I'm getting to the point in life where that's, there's a negative return to that. But I've got my own habits and routines that I'm committed to, that give me the opportunity to have membership in this, in this program as the head coach. And the day that I'm not willing to do that, I think is the day that there needs to be another leader here.

53:35David Novak:You talk a lot about the importance of curiosity. And one of the things that I've heard you say is that knowledge is limiting. Explain what you mean by that. What I know, I cease to try to understand. And so there's got to be this beginner's mindset applied to everything. And essentially, if I shut off to learning, I also shut off the valve to growth. But what I know, I cease to try to understand what I'm curious about, I'll explore for a lifetime. And I think these guys, including me, I mean, look, my, you know, I want my career. I'm still, I'm still, I still feel like I'm early in on it. You know, I'm going to turn 45 this year.

54:16I think I got a lot of coaching ahead of me. And I certainly, I want to continue to push the limits of what's possible there and to try to, I don't know, just to challenge myself over time. What I'm not going to do is sit back and think I've got it figured out. You know, I just really shudder to the idea of arrival. I really shudder to the idea of being acknowledged for these awards that really are team awards and team accolades. You know, I've got so much growing left to do. And if I'm curious about the craft, if I'm chasing the love I have for development in my role, that is something that for the rest of my coaching career, I will continue to chase and evolve.

54:59If I think that I figured it out and I start to shut off to that curiosity, that learning, you know, we stagnate. And when we stagnate, we lose passion, we lose energy. I mean, the expression of curiosity, like sincere curiosity, is one of the best sources of energy you can be around because it can be nerdy at times, but it's so much fun. And when you can pass along your curiosity, like when I pass it along to the players, when they hear me talk about football in a way that maybe is different from what they've heard in the past, but they recognize how I see it and kind of what it ignites within me.

55:35I think that's a real gift to be able to hand that off. And so that's what I mean when I say that.

55:40David Novak:Yeah, I love that. The curiosity is contagious, and you've got me fired up here. And I've had a lot of fun with this conversation, Clark. And I want to have some more with what is my lightning round of questions here. So are you ready for this? Yes. The three words your players would use to describe you? Competitive, spirited, caring. What's one word your family would use that your players probably wouldn't? Silly. If you could be one person for a day besides yourself, who would it be? I'd love to be the president for a day just to feel what that feels like. Honestly, the intensity of that's got to be unreal.

56:16Your biggest pet peeve? People that say one thing and do another. Who would play you in a movie? Probably Brad Pitt or some other incredibly handsome actor.

56:26David Novak:What's a habit that's been instrumental to the success that you've had? Reading and reflection. I mean, I'm a big reader, but even more, I think now that I've evolved, it's more about writing and kind of dumping out what's inside of me. I think it's been really healthy for me. What's something you've been curious about lately that has nothing to do with work? Mythology. And maybe it does have something to do with work, but this idea of ancient languages and kind of the human story that way. The one thing you do just for you? I'm the worst because I'm hobbyless. I mean, to say exercise, routines, to read, those are the things I do.

57:05I mean, truthfully, the things I do just for me are when I'm watching shows with my wife and we're just hanging out. You know, that's a lot of fun for me.

57:11David Novak:And besides your family and friends, what's your most prized possession? Probably this office, you know, because it's, I don't own it, but it's like a stewardship and I'm very proud of, you know, what it represents for me. So I would say the office probably. If I turned on the radio in your car, what would I hear? Any kind of like sad folk music. What's something about you few people would know? That I am intense and edgy and, you know, I don't present that way all the time because I can't live that way all the time. My fire is a slow burn, but it's a hot burn. And I think the people that are closest to me understand that about me.

57:50And it's part of what makes me effective when I am. But yeah, that is certainly inside of me.

57:56David Novak:What's one of your daily rituals, something that you'd never miss? Well, I mean, that's going to be my exercise routine. So that's Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday morning. And then I have a fasting routine Monday, Wednesday, Friday. And those are things that become my, that's my discipline to make sure that I'm prepared to do what I need to do for this team. Well, thank you, Clark. You're Out of the lightning round, I just have a few more questions and I'll let you go back to work here. You know, one thing that's really hit me here is just how you seem to just take accountability for everything that goes on in the program, the good and the bad.

58:30David Novak:How do you think about accountability as a leader? I feel responsible. I think part of my growth has been to understand the control I have and the control I don't. And sometimes that feeling of responsibility can turn into guilt and shame, which aren't good for me in terms of carrying those with me too long. But I feel very responsible. You know, the common thread of our players is their sons. And so, you know, I want to provide an environment that I would be proud of my kids to be a part of. That doesn't mean it's perfect for everyone. So I don't want to give this image that somehow we've, you know, this is comfortable or convenient for every one of our players.

59:12I think that it should be challenging. It should be the hardest thing they've ever done. But I am responsible for it. So that's maybe like kind of top of the chart for me in terms of when I put my head on the pillow at night, that's the feeling I have. And so that is the that's kind of what starts my engine every day, knowing that it's my job to unlock potential within each staff member, within each player in this program. And that's an important job.

59:41David Novak:How do you think about leadership at home? Very similar. You know, it's partnership first with my wife. It's it's, you know, without confrontation, you don't have boundaries like so we have to make sure there's not erosion in those boundaries so that they're clean and clear. So it's not a relationship without friction. I think some of the value that we built into our marriage has to do with where we have challenged each other. I mean, I think that's deepened our partnership and the love we have for each other. And so I think so much of that is not just about being a husband. It's about building meaningful relationships.

1:00:20How can you be honest? How can you have confrontation and conflict and also never lose the respect that you have? And then, you know, parenting is coaching in a lot of ways because you have to first acknowledge the control that you don't have, which is terrifying. And then what I try to do at home, which is the same thing I try to do here, is drive a mindset and approach, understand the lens through which they see the world and just shape that the best I can. But I want to be really clear. I do not coach my kids. You know, they see me coach 115. 15, they need to know that I'm dad to three going on four.

1:00:59And so we've been really clear to draw those boundaries. And so there are things that they get access to that no one else does. But on the whole, there's so much carryover between what I do at work and what I do at home.

1:01:11David Novak:You know, if you were thinking about the role as a football coach, what's one lesson or leadership learning that any leader could, would really benefit from, from what you've learned as a football coach? So the goal is impact. The goal is actually not to get people to do what I say. It's to, it's for them to do it for themselves. You know, it's like, um, when, when things are done without being said, because they've internalized the learning, they understand the importance of it and they're doing it because they know how it serves the mission. I think then you've had impact. And so, you know, we can't put rules up on the wall and have slogans and not have relationships.

1:01:53How we drive impact is actually getting to know the people and making sure they know that, you know, like, again, my staff members, I see them for who they are, their husbands, their fathers, I honor the sacrifices they make. You know, I want to really pull every part of them into this. And that means that, you know, I've got to be willing to see them as more than just people that yell and scream and blow the whistle. You know, I think we go way beyond that here. And same for the players, their sons, their brothers. Some of them are parents. How do I celebrate that with them and sharing that with them?

1:02:26And ultimately, when you have vision and you have impact, you can have alignment. And if these programs that aren't aligned, you know, are aligned around the wrong things. I mean, we see that every weekend on Saturdays in the way they perform. So, again, to think back and say this is what I want to be a part of, I like to consume sports, too. Like, I'm a sports fan. And so if I'm watching a hockey game, I want to see a team that's getting over the boards, trying to pin the opponent in the forecheck, that's playing aggressively and making the tough decisions and eating the puck on defense, all that kind of stuff.

1:02:59So I want that to be true of the team I coach, too. I want when people watch us play, they're inspired by what they see, independent of any result.

1:03:07David Novak:And, Clark, I have to tell you, you're an inspiring leader. You know, you have your own authenticity, your own style, but the fact that you care so much about what you do and who you do it for is so obvious. And I can see why you have so much talent wanting to come to Vanderbilt. And I can see why you and your team have turned this program around together. Well, David, first of all, that is quite the honor. And I want to, on the note of talent coming to Vanderbilt, let's go back to the conversation around the T-shirt because you're the next one to come on to the Vanderbilt family. Next time, look, Eli may be upset with you, but we'll get you in that V and it'll feel really good to you.

1:03:46So, listen, I'm so deeply honored to spend time with you. And again, this has been such a learning experience for me. And so anyone that could draw from kind of what I've been through here, what I do know is we're not done. And so there's going to be pain and challenge ahead. I got to keep learning, growing and trying to get better at my job.

1:04:04David Novak:Well, I love that. And, you know, that curiosity and that learning mentality is going to keep you on top. And I agree with you. When you lose that, there needs to be somebody else in the job. That's right. And you've got it right. So thank you very much. I appreciate you. Thank you.

1:04:26David Novak:David, as a Vanderbilt alum, I just, I really need you to know how much I appreciated that conversation with you and Clark. Well, he's a great guy. He's a great coach, great leader. I mean, you got to be proud to have him leading your team. And he had a 10-game, 10-winning season, and he's going to have more. And obviously, he wants a national championship. Yep. He said the mission is to win. And it's so obvious to me, hearing this conversation, why he has been able to turn around the program at Vanderbilt and allowed for the success that not only Vandy football, but the whole kind of like conversation around Vanderbilt sports.

1:05:06It's just, it's completely changed over the last couple of years.

1:05:10David Novak:And I think he's had a ton to do with that. Yeah. I remember going to, you know, I remember going to Vandy games with my daughter who went to Vanderbilt and the stadium would be about a fourth of the way full. I mean, now it's packed, you know, so it's great to see. Yeah. It's great to see. David, I'm excited to break down some of the key themes that I pulled from their conversation with Clark. And the first one is the way that he went about kind of turning the program around. He described it as a sick culture when he took over the program. And he had this process of diagnosing that sick culture as the first piece of, you know, really trying to change the game at Vanderbilt.

1:05:52David Novak:What stood out to you about the way that he went about diagnosing that sick culture and how he made those changes? What really hit me was how he realized there was no energy. Remember, he talked about the first team meeting. You could just tell all the slumping and just the lack of energy. That was one of the things. The thing that really struck me and has been true in every one of the experiences I've had when I've gone into a turnaround situation is there's a victimitis, severe case of victimitis going on where everybody's blaming everybody else, but nobody's taking accountability for themselves.

1:06:26David Novak:And, you know, so when you have people pointing fingers this way and that way, you know, you have have a real problem going on. So, you know, and I think that winning cultures, people are accountable. They know what's expected of them. They believe in it. And like he said, it's not his culture. It's our culture. Everybody believes and everybody buys into the mission. and everybody really wants to reinforce the behaviors that he identified that's going to drive their success. Was there a time in your career at Yum Brands where you were tasked with diagnosing a sick culture and how'd you go about it?

1:07:06David Novak:Well, I don't know if I diagnosed it, it just happened. You know, I walked into KFC, my first job as division president, just like his first job as head coach. And I saw everybody blaming everybody and their brother, Everybody talking about how great things used to be when the colonel was here. Well, the colonel had been dead for 25 years. Nobody was creating new memories. The franchisees hated the company. The company hated the franchisees. There was no teamwork. There was just this whole sense that we're the ugly ducklings of PepsiCo. We've never made plan, and we're never going to win around here.

1:07:42David Novak:And what I tried to do was basically what I think Clark did, is come in with a belief that we would win together. That was why we were here. That's why we got paid. This is what we can do. We have a great brand. We just got to do the right things and the right things will happen. And it happened. And it was the key to my career and the success and the reason why I ended up becoming the CEO of Yum Brands. I love that you brought up the victimitis thing because the way that Clark kind of attacked that part of the sickness, if you will, felt so practical to me. I mean, he talks about how he would keep people accountable for the way that they talked about themselves and the way that other people perceived them and made a really clear set, really clear expectations around how they talk about being part of a Vanderbilt football program, because historically it's been kind of sad.

1:08:36David Novak:And he really changed the mindset of instead of this happening to me, I'm going to take responsibility for how others perceive me and how others perceive this program. And he did that so practically. And that really stood out to me, too. And he fully admitted that he underestimated the task at hand. You know, he thought he could come in there. He thought he knew what to do. And he had to change as a leader. He had to not just be the guy. He had to get everybody else to buy into the mission and the behaviors. And then he could hold people accountable for being aligned to really execute on those dimensions.

1:09:16David Novak:So for him, you know, he realizes that his role is important, but he knew that he couldn't do it by himself. And, you know, it's like I always say, you know, nothing big ever happens by yourself. You have to take people with you. And he did with his team, his coaches, and he had a great, has a great relationship with his athletic director. And all of that leads to a winning formula. You talked with Clark about how important it is to shock the system when you walk into a culture that's sick and you have a plan to really turn things around. What does it mean to shock the system? And if people are in need of shocking a system, what should they do?

1:09:55David Novak:Yeah, well, I think you have to understand what's going on in the company that's keeping you from success. For example, when I became president of KFC, the franchisees hated the company people. The company people hated the franchisees. They didn't work together. The franchisees weren't allowed in the building. You know, people didn't want me to talk to the franchisees when they were having a meeting in Louisville because I was too new. I didn't know enough about the business. So I just shocked the system and said, look, you know, I want you to know something. I love franchisees. and if you want to be on this team, you're going to need to love franchisees and work with them.

1:10:32David Novak:And, you know, I want to talk to franchisees. I'm going to this meeting and I'm going to stand up and tell them I don't know the business, but they're going to help me learn it. But, you know, I really shocked the system by basically saying the acrimonious situation we'd have with our franchisees was going to end because it had to, because what we've been doing had led to losing and we had to start winning. And that's how we were going to win. We were going to win together. So, you know, I think, you know, it's important to shock the system. I remember talking to Bob Grossman, who's the CEO of NYU and just recently retired.

1:11:02David Novak:But the elevator at NYU Hospital was slow. It was terrible. And people would wait around, get on the elevator. People bitched about it every day. The first thing he did as CEO to basically say there's a new sheriff in town was he fixed the elevator. But that says that things are going to be different around there. And then he continued to do different things. I think he fired more than half of his team because they did not buy into his mission. But he shocked the system by making change that typically wouldn't happen in a bureaucratic hospital system. So, you know, I think what Clark did, and he talked about, you know, taking the team out that night in the stadium where they burned all the old behaviors and then created the five new behaviors that they were going to do to really turn the program around.

1:11:51David Novak:and it became their vision, not his vision. And I think that that was very, very powerful. But he definitely shocked the system. Another thing he talked about in this conversation that's really resonating with me is this idea that belief is a practice. What did you take away from that part of the conversation? Don't you love the Ted Lasso series and that little sign that he had up above the door, which was belief. He knows that without belief, you have nothing. You know, it's like Freud said, you know, you become what you think you are. You know, attitudinally, you have to have positive thoughts of what you can be or it's never going to happen.

1:12:36David Novak:And you have to practice that. You have to make sure that you, you know, represent a positive belief every single day. You have to catch yourself, you know, when you're not being, you know, a believer. And, you know, I think being aware of the importance of belief and then making sure that everything you do reinforces that importance is what he's really talking about. And I think if you really boil it down for Clark, I mean, his belief is if you continue to do the right things, the right things are going to happen and we're going to get it done around here. And, you know, he went from two and 10 to five and seven.

1:13:16David Novak:He talked about it being some, you know, sort of a fake, fake progress back to two and 10. And then he then he evolved as a leader to get more and more people to buy into his mission. And here they are now. He has a 10 game season and 10 winning game season. And by the way, he doesn't like being, you know, touted as the SEC coach of the year because that's a team thing, not not his thing. But the fact of the matter is, that's a hell of accomplishment. And like I mentioned to him in the podcast, you know, show me a good leader, I'll show you a good business. You know, you might get lucky one year, but you're never going to get lucky on a sustainable basis if you don't have great leadership.

1:13:57David Novak:And I guarantee you, I'm going to bet that Vanderbilt's going to have a winning team for a long time. I love it. You can just tell, like he talks about in the episode, belief is a practice. It's not a feeling. It's not an emotion. It's not a dream. It is literally what you're doing. And I know we only talked to him for a little bit over an hour, but it is so evident that that statement is something that he lives out every single day. And like you said, I think that they're going to continue to have great success because that is so ingrained. He's a selfless leader. He cares about people. He's authentic.

1:14:31David Novak:He's human. You know, people follow guys like that to the moon. Look how excited we are just talking about it. So that was fun. That was very fun. I love it. Well, David, thanks so much for another episode of How Leaders Lead. Thank you to Coach Lee for all of your wonderful insights. And thank you to you, our listeners, for tuning in to How Leaders Lead. Anchor down, and we'll see you next week.