#310: Demond Martin, Cofounder and CEO, WellWithAll – Recognize how others shape you

0:00Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of How Leaders Lead with David Novak. Today's guest is Demond Martin. He's the co-founder and CEO of Wellwithal, a consumer wellness company whose purpose is to advance health equity. In fact, they give away 20 % of their profits to that very cause, making healthier products, useful health information, and support more accessible to communities that have been underserved. Demond also has a new book out called Friends of the Good, which is all about building lasting relationships that go beyond convenience and show up in both joy and in hardship. A central idea in his book and in his leadership is that we are community built, not self-made.

0:41And in this episode, you'll learn why that concept is so important. Enjoy this conversation with Damond and David, and I will see you at the end of the episode for The Gebrief.

0:57I don't know if you know this, but we have a mutual friend in Larry Fitzgerald. And how cool is it to see that great wide receiver going to the NFL Hall of Fame this summer? Oh, man, that was so amazing. I literally just talked to Larry last night. He is a great human. I mean, he's been an amazing football player. But who he is as a human trumps that in such an extraordinary way. Yeah, I could not agree more. But when you think about a Hall of Famer, you know, what do you think would be the qualities that would really make a Hall of Fame leader? I think you're that rare individual that goes well beyond what the average person does.

1:37And, you know, the way that you practice, the way that you show up, the way that you give to your team. And that's exactly, you know, what Larry Fitz is all about. Well, I know you spent a little time with Larry, or I'm assuming you have, because he's usually out on the golf course all the time. You know, what's a golf story that's taught you really an important life lesson? One thing I realized very quickly is that it doesn't matter how hard you hit the ball. It's really about actually getting the ball into the hole. And that's why I beat Larry so often. You and I have that in common, you know.

2:20I have this picture in my office, which is David, you know, out driving, you know, Goliath. He thought he actually had the longest drive, but I had him by 40 yards and I sent him, sent him to him. So, you know, I don't think it's in his office, but it certainly is in mine. But, you know, he's going to have some comments about this, I'm sure. Yeah. You know, Daman, you know, I kind of joke half jokingly that I'm not sure I'd have a lot of friends without golf. I mean, I've met so many friends on the golf course. And speaking of friends, you have what I think is a really awesome book with a real message everyone should read.

3:01It's called Friends of the Good. Where did the title come? Where did that phrase come, Friends of the Good? It actually comes from a really old set of writings by Aristotle, where many people don't realize he thought that friendship was one of the most essential elements of joy and broke friendship into three categories. Transactional, scratch my back, I scratch yours. Friends of pleasure, we go out and party and hang out. But both of those are fleeting in nature. What he called friends of the good are friends of valor. Those are the types of friendships that last for a lifetime. How do you know, Daman, whether a friend is going to be that?

3:42I mean, how do you distinguish those? I think, quite frankly, people show you who they are every day, and we oftentimes choose to ignore it. How your friends treat other people, how they treat a waiter, they might not treat you poorly in the moment, but if you see them treating folks, you know, poorly otherwise that they don't need anything from, then that's a clear indicator. Or the opposite is friends that show up. They show up in times of joy, but they also show up when you need to be comforted. That's one of the biggest elements of understanding a friend of the good. It sounds like they value you for who you are, not what you can do for them.

4:25That's right. Okay. Not transactional. That's right. And I've also heard that you say you're not necessarily self-made, that you're community built. Explain what you mean by that. I mean, there's this false narrative that people pull themselves up by their bootstraps and they become, you know, great successes. I'm definitely not self-made. I'm community built. So many people have poured into my life at every stage of my life when I've needed it to make me the human that I am. How do you stay in touch with those people or do you? I do. You know, even my fifth grade teacher, you know, that was so instrumental in my life, Miss Johns.

5:12I've been able to text back and forth with her and keep her up on my progress. us, you know, as I was writing this book, I just, I thought about how transformational she was, you know, in my life. It's easier than most people think. Like right now, there's somebody that's made an extraordinary impact in your life. I would ask, you know, just tell that person hi, you know, send them a letter or send them a text and just reconnect with them and let them know you're thinking about them. It's important. Yeah, that's great. You know, and you mentioned your childhood teacher here, you know, I want to take you back and maybe you tell a story about her, but what's a story from your childhood or your upbringing that really shaped the kind of leader you are today?

5:57I was at times a bit of a class clown, you know, back in fifth grade, because I would deflect. It turns out that I'm actually dyslexic and I didn't know it. We didn't have the resources to test for that, you know, back then. But Ms. Johns actually pulled me to the side and recognized that I was talented at math. I couldn't spell very well and read slow, but she gave me, you know, the academic confidence by pointing out and honing my math skills, which gave me the ability to have a reflection of myself that was positive academically and and no longer needed to be a class clown. I'm still funny, but not a class clown.

6:43Well, you know, speaking of funny, being funny, how important do you think humor is in leadership? I think it's very important. The ability to take something that could be super serious or create, you know, a bunch of tension and to be able to calm that down with a little bit of humor and deflect, I think, is an important skill set and talent to have for sure. As I understand it, Devon, your first job out of college, you worked for Erskine Bowles, who I know and is a great, great person. And he went, you know, obviously he became the President Clinton's White House chief of staff. You know, how did you end up working with Erskine?

7:25So I was elected student body president as a sophomore at UNC Charlotte. And my senior year, a former student body president came to give a talk. So we got introduced. And I already had a job at an accounting firm after graduation. But I said to her as a throwaway comment, like, hey, you're working at the White House. Is there any way I could go there for the summer before I start work? And she said, sure, kid, send me a resume. So got me into there. I was an accounting major. Everybody else is political science. So I was building spreadsheets during my internship and then got recommended to work for Erskine in a full-time job.

8:03I remember walking from the old executive office building into the West Wing for the first time, past the Marine, and I walked into his office and he said, Daman, I'm super busy. I've heard a ton about you. I'm very impressed. Come work for me and I'll change your life. And I was like, yeah, let's do that. And so I ended up working with him in a full-time position. One other quick story is, you know, six months into that job, I'm living on my fraternity brother's couch. I've got no money. I'm driving into the West Wing every day in my 1990 Geo Prism. And that thing breaks down, smoke's blowing out of it.

8:43And so now I go into work and I've got no car, no money. And he hears about it and he said, you know, DeMond, I'm living in this mansion in Georgetown by myself. Why don't you just come live with me? And again, I was like, yes. By doing that, we rode into work every day and we'd occasionally share a meal or watch a football game. And two people from very different backgrounds that on the surface look nothing alike. Like, we found the humanity in each other in a really extraordinary way. And he's become like my second father. Like, I learned so much from him. And that car breaking down was one of the best events of my life.

9:27Yeah, and how do you dig into the humanity of other people as a leader? How do you make that a real asset for you? Be curious. You know, every human being, their greatest expertise is themselves, you know, and so actually being interested in who they are, what they believe, what they stand for. What you're going to realize is that, you know, the people across from you, you have so much more in common than you think. I mean, we're in this time of isolation and siloed thinking. And, you know, what I would encourage folks to do is just not let, you know, race or age or income level be a barrier to connecting with another human.

10:19You know, another thing that I read in my research was you described Erskine moved from being more than just a mentor to becoming a sponsor. You know, how do those two interact and what's the difference? A mentor is somebody who writes a letter of recommendation. A sponsor is someone who lends their credibility on your behalf. You know, when someone will call and ask or say, hey, I met this kid, Demond. He said he worked for you. What do you think? Erskine would say, Demond is my son. Right. And that's a very different response. You know, he was like, treat this young man as you would my son. And that credibility that he lent to me, you know, was extraordinary.

11:13Now, I had a responsibility in that I had to do something with that. I had to show up. I had to be respectful. I had to work hard. And I had to honor that he gave, you know, that credibility to me. Putting that kind of positive pressure really had an impact on the accountability that you felt. How do you use that positive pressure in your repertoire as you develop people? Do you have a story of when you've done that? Anyone who's come into my office knows that I have one gear, you know, and it's honesty. And so if, you know, there's been so many young folks who have come in and presented an idea.

11:54And oftentimes what people will do is say, oh, that was great, or not really give much feedback. But I will tell you directly what I think. If it's a terrible idea, I'm going to tell you it's terrible. Some people don't respond well to that. Some people don't respond well to feedback that's not positive anyway. But I think anyone that I've mentored over the years, they've grown to love that honesty because it comes, it's with dignity, it's with respect, but it's honesty with love. You know, what advice, DeMond, do you give to aspiring leaders who are trying to earn opportunities? You mentioned how you got to be, you know, work with Erskine Bowles.

12:39You asked for it, but, you know, that seems pretty simple, but do you have more to the story or just ask and you shall receive? Some people are looking to have this five-year plan. And once I go and then I do investment banking, I'm going to go to business school and I'm going to start a business. I think that as a leader and as someone who's learning from others, you surround yourself with the best possible people who have your interests at heart and try to use, instead of chasing money, chase knowledge and wisdom and experience. I was just with an incredible leader this morning, you know, Wes Moore.

13:21And one of the things that he said, it was like, choose the tough things, you know, because when you choose the path that makes you stay up just a little bit longer and get up a little bit earlier and things are just a little bit harder, it fortifies you, you know, for those moments that are inevitable. No, no one is spared from, you know, tragedy or despair or hard things. And so rather than trying to constantly avoid any of those things happening, preparing yourself, understanding that it is inevitable that you're going to experience a tough moment, I think is the way to go. You know, another sponsor of years, I think that's probably the appropriate word, not mentor, was James Cash.

14:13And who was he? I don't think everybody would be necessarily familiar with him. And what was it about him that made such a strong impression on you? Jim Cash is one of the greatest humans I've ever met. He integrated the basketball league he played in at TCU. There's a statue in front of TCU, Texas Christian, of him as a basketball player. But beyond that, he was original Microsoft board member. He's the first African-American tenured professor at Harvard Business School, Walmart board member. But more important than all those things, he's such a mentor to so many. and when I met him, I was a junior in college and he's been a mentor to me to this day.

15:06Oh, that's great. As I understand, his advice to you was basically think bigger. I thought I was thinking pretty big. Tell me about a time where maybe he pushed you or you pushed yourself to rise to that challenge of thinking bigger. I mean, he's given me so much advice. You know, there was a public company that wanted me to be on their board. And he looked at me and he was like, why would you do that? They need you more than you need them. You know, I mean, he's constantly that sort of sounding board. Having a mentor that truly knows you and your capabilities and in moments of doubt or uncertainty can just, you know, give you that look is super important to remind you who you are.

16:04That board example is a good one because it was obviously a board. It was a public company, but you could do bigger things. You could go over, maybe you could learn a little bit more. When did you push yourself to do something bigger? When I started Well With All, it was in a moment where, you know, I'd had a 21-year career, one of the most successful hedge funds in the world. And we were in the middle of crisis. I was standing in the middle of an emergency room with someone I love, dealing with depression, anxiety, suicidal. and in the worst moments of that, one of the things that I realized with the greatest clarity is that now I was sitting on the other side of inequity.

16:50You know, I, growing up, I had a heroin addict as a stepfather. I lived in poverty and sort of went through the opportunities of going to the White House and then Harvard Business School and having an investment career. But now I'm sitting in this position where I've got all this access and the 14-year-old version of myself had I gone through that same scenario, I'd be dead or in jail. And there's so many people that are in that situation right now. So ultimately, what I ended up doing is retiring from being an investor and starting what is really a 2.0 version of what Paul Newman created with Newman's Own.

17:29Well, we thought we take 20 % of the profits and we use that to impact health equity, But we're working to put, you know,$300 million into helping communities, you know, over this next decade. And so I've taken a bigger step to do something bigger. Yeah, that's a big, big time impact, Aaron. And, you know, I want to take you back and we're going to get more into your new company here. Well with all. But tell us how you got into the investment business. And you said you've been doing it for over 20 years. You're at Adage Capital, which is one of the largest hedge funds in the world. How did you end up there?

18:09When I was interviewing, coming out of business school, a lot of people look for, I want to go work at a middle market private equity fund that does infrastructure. I didn't have that specificity. What I wanted to do was work for someone who had been extraordinarily successful, that was willing to teach me and allowed me to broaden my finance skills and respected what I brought to the table. Like that was my criteria. And I ended up getting introduced to a gentleman named Phil Gross, who really is a savant, you know, an incredible investor, but an even better human. And in that meeting, I called him five times before he actually called me back.

18:56And on the sixth time, he was like, hey, what are you doing tomorrow? And I was like, coming to see you? And he was like, yeah. So I went over and we spent hours just talking. We talked about investments, but we talked about basketball. We talked about, you know, giving back to society. And I realized like, that's the person that I wanted to work for. And I ended up, you know, working for him and then becoming his business partner. And, you know, and he's been just a tremendous mentor. He taught me not only how to be an investor, but also how to be a philanthropist. When you're in the investment business like you were, you know, you got to put it, you know, you got to make some pretty hard decisions many, many times.

19:37When you're evaluating a company, what's the single biggest thing you look for? Who are you going to put your money behind? It depends on the industry, right? I mean, there's some industries like biotech that it's, you know, it's very specific. Like, does a drug work or not? You know, that's going to drive the valuation. In the consumer industry, I spent a lot of time understanding who was running the company. A bad CFO and CEO could wreck a great company and a great operation. how they managed inventory, how they dealt with expenses, how they dealt with the communication, you know, of their guidance, you know, all those things drove the business.

20:24So even in, you know, really crappy industries, you can have extraordinary companies massively outperform. So it was a cocktail of opportunity, but also, you know, how the management team led. Hello, friends. I hope you're loving this conversation. Be sure to stay tuned to the very end of the episode. As always, David and I are going to debrief some of the concepts that he talks about with this week's guest. So stay tuned to the very end, and I will see you soon. I love this quote of yours, which is, you know, choose the people, not the logo. Say more. Understanding who is the character of the people, you know, will determine the outcome.

21:15That's in a relationship. That's also in a business. And speaking of logos, you're wearing the logo on your hat here, and I'm holding up your Well With All logo. How did you come to this logo? And what was it that made you think this is the badge you wanted to put on your brand? Creating a logo is hard, by the way. I didn't realize that finding a name and a logo is a really difficult process. But what you see if you look intently enough, those are two hearts and three people. And it's about love for community, which is what Well With All is all about. Love and the community. That's fantastic. And, you know, tell us about Well With All.

22:04I mean, you mentioned a little bit, but I mean, but before I before you do, I mean, what you talked about the noble cause you had behind this business of giving back, which is which is terrific. But you were a person that sought out investments and you just said, I'm going to I'm going to flip the switch here. OK, what was it that that that really made you go, you know, I want to I want to start something, run something myself and be some and do something where people are going to invest in me and my company? It really was the tragedy that we were living through in our family. And when we started Well With Awe, it was never my intent to run it.

22:49I've helped start a number of things in the past and helped others move forward with those. it got to a point where if this was ever going to be what it needed to be, I had to run it. It was my inspiration. It was my story. It was my set of relationships that could really make this happen. And so I had to run it. But it was not out of choice, quite frankly. I was quite happy doing what I was doing. But this is a life calling. And I assume you're really glad you took it on. I am. I wake up every day with the greatest clarity that I'm doing exactly what I should be doing. And that feels pretty tremendous.

23:38What's been the biggest leadership challenge that you've had so far now that you're the person that people are investing in? People. I mean, any CEO will tell you it's all about the people. And it's the best thing, you know, about it. And it's the hardest thing, particularly when when it's not going well and you have to you have to fire someone that that is difficult because, you know, what we've created at Well With All is really a family. And so every individual is part of this family. But there are moments when, you know, things aren't working the way that they need to. And you have to adjust for the benefit of the greater good.

24:27And that's tough. Tell us about the categories and the products that make up your brand. Yeah. So one of my business partners is a former CEO at GNC. And so we started with a line of extraordinary supplements, men's and women's multivitamin, incredible sleep product, a D3K2 product. And those are tremendous, clinically studied ingredients and clinically studied dosages. And then we also launched a natural energy drink that is phenomenal. It tastes great. It's only 80 milligrams of caffeine. It is unbelievable. Good. And only 45 calories. It's really good. I love this. The mango. The mango is that.

25:11You crushed it with the mango. I like them all. Strawberry lemonade is good. I got the strawberry lemonade. But why would a wellness company, you know, start an energy drink? One of the highest caloric impacts to the American diet is sugary sodas and drinks. And so having a substitute, you know, for that is extraordinarily important. This is only 45 calories and it comes from the 30 % real fruit and vegetable juice. And it tastes fantastic. It tastes like it's loaded with sugar. But it's not, right? It's no added sugar whatsoever. But, you know, the sugary soda industry is a$54 billion industry, right?

25:50So we also are quite strategic in terms of thinking about how we grow this business to generate the profits, to do the help in community. What do you understand about your customers that maybe the big wellness brands don't? The big wellness brands have not been talking to communities of color, have not been talking to folks who don't make a super high income. And what we've been doing is democratizing not only healthy products, but also health information. So, you know, what you'll see very shortly, we're launching with Walmart in October, and we're going to be bringing health information to the pharmacies within Walmart, starting first in Boston and Chicago.

26:42we've got something called Know Your Numbers, Change Your Life, which are the six numbers that every human, you know, should know to live a longer, healthier life. And, you know, things like A1C, where 80 % of people who are pre-diabetic have no idea that that's the case. And you wonder why people are having strokes and heart attacks and so forth, because these silent killers are creeping up on them without the knowledge. So getting also great health information to folks is a big part of what Wellwithal is doing. Do you involve customers in your product development? Do you do anything unique on that front?

27:21Yeah, we, you know, particularly with the drink, like we went out and we extended the process by over a month beyond what is typically done to bring in unique voices and make sure that we had a diverse, set of folks who tasted the drinks and gave us feedback. And then we made adjustments before those products came to market. We do a ton of sampling around the country and we get feedback from customers. And we've got some products in the pipeline that are directly based on the customer feedback. Did they teach you something that really surprised you as you were getting their feedback on the, let's just take the energy drink?

28:03You know, the nostalgia that people, you know, wanted. Like when you taste a fruit punch, it tastes like something that you drank as a kid, but it's a hell of a lot healthier. That was one. It's like Hawaiian punch. I mean, that's what it tasted to be like, you know? And then I look at 45 calories. You gotta be kidding me. It's really good. So I think also the desire for people to, when they have something that is a healthier alternative and it tastes good, that they're willing to switch from the stuff that they were putting in their bodies. Now, you said something earlier that really stood out to me.

28:41You give 20 % of your profits into health equity. What the heck is health equity? And is this, I'm sure, part of doing good in the world? So, you know, if you look in this country, in the last 15 years, 140 rural hospitals have been closed. Since 2022, on average, 17 veterans a day have committed suicide. If you look here in Boston, Back Bay versus Roxbury, there's a 23-year life expectancy gap that exists between those two places. and they're three miles away from each other. The north side of Chicago versus the south side of Chicago, there's a 30-year life expectancy gap. So people are living shorter, sicker lives, you know, in places that are determined by their zip code as opposed to who they are as humans.