In short
Mark Pincus (Zynga founder/former CEO) discusses building adult-focused social games, leadership during hypergrowth, and how to vet ideas using “Proven, Better, New.” He argues adults need permission to play, and that games succeed when they connect to real life and deliver “true signal” fast through rapid testing.
Guest backgrounds
Mark Pincus founded Zynga in 2007 after a gut instinct that adults would play games on phones if woven into daily life. Zynga launched major hits including FarmVille, Words with Friends, and Zynga Poker, reaching over a billion users within four years. He previously worked in corporate roles (including Bain) and led other startups (e.g., support.com; earlier social network Tribe.net).
Key claims
Gut instincts are usually right; ideas are often wrong. The hardest product work is finding what’s “launch-worthy” (true signal) and knowing what isn’t. Leadership requires intellectual honesty, delegation mechanics as teams grow, and hiring people with “broken resumes” (expert witnesses frustrated by being ignored).
Notable examples
Chess.com/lichess as “play” that transfers to real-life skills; Zynga’s misspelled dog-name origin (“Zynga”); support.com pivot from ESD to help desk software; Words with Friends team forcing a new “fast play” feature that failed because <1% clicked.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOThe Importance of Play in Adult Life
0:41 to 3:08
Mark discusses the challenges adults face in allowing themselves to play and how Zynga games were designed to fit into real life.
“You've spent a great deal of your career making games played by hundreds of billions of people.”
The Origin of the Zynga Name
3:08 to 4:24
Mark shares the amusing story behind the naming of Zynga after his dog and the trademark challenges faced.
“And I may have even convinced them to take carrots out, which is a big, you know, a big win in the Bolognese world.”
Identifying Market Opportunities
4:24 to 7:40
Mark explains his philosophy of targeting mature markets and the latent demand for social gaming.
“I was like, no one's ever gonna be able to pronounce this.”
Leadership Growth Amid Rapid Expansion
7:40 to 14:00
Mark discusses his leadership evolution as Zynga grew and the importance of delegation and building connections.
“and in fact they are today because the video game industry was around$23 billion worldwide when I started, and today it's$280 billion.”
Building a Moral Contract
14:00 to 18:10
Learn how to create a trusting environment by establishing a moral contract with team members.
“broken resume because you've been kind of mistreated.”
Fostering Intellectual Honesty
18:10 to 22:40
Explore the challenges of promoting intellectual honesty and addressing hard truths in corporate culture.
“Like, do we need to get more data points?”
Navigating Product Development Decisions
22:40 to 25:52
Understand the importance of product development decisions and the challenges of being a truth-teller in leadership.
“And it's your job to fix all these things that you're pointing out to me where I'm fully ashamed.”
Instincts vs. Ideas in Innovation
25:52 to 28:01
Discover the framework of Proven Better New to balance instincts and ideas in product innovation.
“And be sure to stay tuned to the very end of the episode.”
Proven, Better, New: The Key to Success
28:01 to 30:01
Learn how proven ideas can lead to better and new solutions.
“the best burritos in San Francisco, the best burgers, the best pizza, like whatever people already love, and I'm going to copy that exactly.”
Fueling Creativity Through Diverse Experiences
30:02 to 31:42
Discover the role of unique experiences in enhancing creativity.
“The uniqueness is the better and that leads you to the new.”
Show all 25 chapters
Emerging from the Abyss: Personal Challenges
31:43 to 34:04
Understand the importance of resilience through personal setbacks.
“and our story and narrative about ourselves.”
The Balance of Ambition and Humility
34:05 to 36:24
Explore the challenges of managing ambition as a leader.
“And I just can't believe you're going to go back and work that hard again.”
The Power of Play in Business
36:25 to 40:08
Learn how embracing playfulness can enhance creativity and success.
“And I was like willing to do anything, take any victory.”
Navigating Public Perception as a CEO
40:09 to 42:01
Discuss the impact of external validation and criticism in leadership.
“that takes business serious, can they play?”
Reflections on Recognition and Leadership
42:01 to 45:28
Mark shares insights on accolades, expectations, and the leadership experience.
“You just have to laugh at it in both times.”
Navigating the Challenges of a CEO Return
45:28 to 48:48
Mark discusses his return as CEO, the challenges he faced, and the realities of leadership.
“And then when I came back as CEO, the stock went down.”
The Importance of Authenticity and Transparency
48:48 to 51:51
Mark emphasizes the need for honesty in corporate communications and leadership.
“And that's the right next step in my career.”
Lightning Round of Quick Questions
51:51 to 54:55
A rapid-fire session where Mark shares personal insights and preferences.
“It's an industry that should have multiple hundred billion dollar companies today or multi hundred billion dollar companies.”
Leadership Lessons and Unfinished Business
54:55 to 56:00
Mark reflects on his leadership philosophy and aspirations for the future.
“So the sense that I want everyone to express their preference and make, passionately make their case.”
Advice for Aspiring Leaders
56:00 to 56:58
Learn the importance of introspection and authenticity in leadership.
“All that matters is I know that I worked, I gave everything I had to passionately pursue that.”
Reflection on Mark Pincus's Insights
56:58 to 58:21
Explore key takeaways from the conversation with Mark Pincus.
“particularly enjoyed what you see, the advice you'd give to any leader.”
The Role of Play in Leadership
58:21 to 1:01:29
Discover how incorporating play into leadership can enhance creativity and success.
“And he said, you need to be CEO of something.”
Intellectual Honesty in Leadership
1:01:29 to 1:03:36
Understand the significance of intellectual honesty and truth-telling in organizations.
“people love play and it unlocks something in people that allows them to be more creative, efficient, and productive.”
Framework for Product Development
1:03:36 to 1:07:09
Learn about the proven, better, new framework for driving product innovation.
“And I feel like, you know, his entire personality and approach to life is just that.”
Key Takeaways from the Episode
1:07:09 to 1:08:24
Summary of important lessons about play, truth, and innovation.
“I think, I mean, obviously what we do is very different from gaming, which is very different from restaurants and, and the food industry, but it's just a fun way to stay creatively stimulated.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00David Novak:Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of How Leaders Lead with David Novak. Today's guest is Mark Pincus, the founder and former CEO of Zynga. Now, in 2007, Mark had a gut feeling that adults would play games on their phones if they were just woven into their daily lives. On that instinct, he founded Zynga and built the biggest games of the early Internet, including Farm Bill, Words with Friends, and Zynga Poker. Four years later, they had over a billion users. So it's safe to say that Mark's instincts were right. In this conversation, you'll learn exactly how Mark got there and all the lessons and mistakes he's learned from along the way.
0:38David Novak:Enjoy this conversation with David and Mark, and I will see you at the end of the episode for The Debrief.
0:49David Novak:You've spent a great deal of your career making games played by hundreds of billions of people. But I understand that the only game you really play these days is chess. Why is that? One thing I try to do is just never, I never want to force myself to use an app or play a game. I don't want this to feel like work. I want it to always feel like play. And so I just have, what I've noticed over the years, and this is a core instinct that I really proved out in building Zynga, is that as adults, we have a tough time giving ourselves permission to play. And one of the things we need is to feel like we're using our time well.
1:34And so part of the formula, the secret sauce that I think made Zynga games work for so many adults was that it related to your real life. And so the nice thing about playing chess online is that it translates. It's not all just gone with that one game. You can build a life skill that translates to being more competitive with your friends or in my case, my daughter, and even lessons that are useful in your real life. The majority of video games don't offer you any value in your real life and they're empty calories. That's why I'm I'm only playing chess.com or Lee Chess.
2:16David Novak:That's great. And, you know, you mentioned the secret sauce. I also understand that you're obsessed with making the perfect bolognese. I mean, how close are you getting to perfect? You never get to perfect, you know, not really. And then if you do, that's all embodied in that one sauce, you know, and you'll never make that exact sauce again. But I'm getting pretty good. I went into Flower and Water, to their test prep kitchen here in San Francisco, to work with their head chef thinking it was going to be in the book. And I didn't want to, you know, be a fraud talking about bolognese without ever talking to a serious chef.
2:57And they made theirs their way, which was really good. And then I collaborated with them to make mine. And I have to say that they really liked mine. And I may have even convinced them to take carrots out, which is a big, you know, a big win in the Bolognese world.
3:17David Novak:That's awesome. You know, and, you know, getting now to your business leadership, you know, you started Zynga in 2007. Where'd you come up with that name? It's a unique name. You know, this is just the random way that life works and gets to my philosophy on naming that that was just the name of my dog. And I was desperate. I mean, we couldn't come up with a name that we like to save our lives. And I had this dog, this amazing rock star dog, Zynga, that had been with me at that point for 10 years, 11 years. and her name was originally Nzinga and she was a rescue and it was too many syllables so I cut it to Zynga.
4:05I tried for years to buy Zynga.com but it's owned by William Zynga, Zynga Industries in Wisconsin. I think they literally make ball bearings. Could not get it. And so one of my engineers came up with the idea to just misspell her name instead of Z-I-N-G-A, Z-Y-N-G-A and I thought that was just a terrible idea. I was like, no one's ever gonna be able to pronounce this. But he said, but the domain is available and we can get the trademark. And I was like, I hate this. Fine. I'm sick of the name thing. Let's just do it. And true enough, people were afraid to say the name. We would go to regular people and say, read this.
4:43And they'd say, nope. And they'd say Zynga, Zynga. You know, that's the weird thing. It was very web 2.0, I guess. People said to make up these misspelled names. And, And, you know, that's the thing with names that they almost the worse they are, the better they are. You know, the more up and bad the name is and the spelling, it's impossible at first for anyone to get it. And then they kind of remember it.
5:08David Novak:So so when you started the company, what what consumer need did you you see that everyone was was missing at that point in time? I like to think, if I can, I like to think about the macro and the micro at the same time and think like, what's a big body of water that, and I love going after mature markets that everyone thinks is long over with, you know, because they usually also have no innovation in them. And that was the search market when Google showed up, actually, as like the 56th search engine. And in 2007, the video game industry was mature. And it was a very big niche. You know, it was not even a top 10 consumer activity on the web.
5:53And I thought that was kind of amazing. And I assume from I was there for the beginning of the web, I thought games would be one of the major categories and would go fast. And it never happened. And then games at that point were shitty little flash games or web games that we played in a browser with ads. And no one wanted to buy the ads because everyone was playing the games and not ever clicking on the ad. So the engagement worked against you, you know. But I looked at it and I was like, this doesn't make sense because I think that people love to play games and they're addicted to them and they play them when they can.
6:33And I just felt like there was, I thought there was a latent demand in all of us to play games if we could justify the time and for a new way to be social. And social networks were exploding at this point. And people were just hanging out there. They just wanted to be there all the time. And so there was a huge appetite for some new innovative thing that we could do together. And so that's why I had this instinct that social games for adults, you know, might work. They're like the comic strip in the newspaper, you know, like, you and I are not going to a comic store, probably, maybe you do, or Comic Con or anything.
7:13but if there's a comic strip in the newspaper when we used to read them still if you tripped over it you might look at it and enjoy it but you weren't going to go out of your way so I thought that games were like that that if they were something in your flow that you kind of stumbled over and they didn't ask much from you but they gave you something back I had this instinct that they could be a lot bigger and in fact they are today because the video game industry was around$23 billion worldwide when I started, and today it's$280 billion. So that's kind of played out.
7:51David Novak:Yeah, I would say so. And it didn't take you long. You obviously fit the need with Zynga, and you crossed a billion dollars in revenue in just four years. You start out as a founder. Now you have this exponential growth. You know, how did that impact you as a leader? And how much did you have to change just to adjust to that kind of growth? One of my life philosophies that I keep in this document for my daughters, I have this ongoing Word doc, is the more things change, the more they stay the same. And that's kind of how I thought about it. My lived experience as a leader was very much that in the sense that in the beginning, it's easy in the sense that it's all your personality and your relationship and everyone's getting that energy from you.
8:44My friend Marcus Siegel used to say I was spreading the vampire blood directly. And that works up to, for sure, 30 people, 50 people. And then around between 120 and 150 people, it just didn't work all of a sudden. I was like, I don't know these people's names. I had people print out for me, you know, everyone's like Facebook profile with their picture, LinkedIn profile, so I could try to memorize them. And I just, I'm not good with names and faces. So it was kind of doomed. And so you start, that's around when I started and needed to think of some leadership, I'd say kind of mechanics or tricks, you know, like, because I could see how much more people were motivated when they felt a personal connection.
9:31And so I started saying, okay, I'm not going to very early on around maybe 500 people. I said, I'm not meeting with any, not doing one-on-ones, no more meeting with any single person. I'll meet with you and your team at the same time. So I was like, I'm going to use my time better, FaceTime better. So I did things like that. I started having a CEO coffee talk. Like I'd meet with the like straggler, you know, one, two, three new employees every Monday and just talk, you know, just talk about the mission and like just try to get in their heads in the sense of like, how do I convince you we're not a normal company?
10:15How do I convince you this isn't like number three or five on your resume of what's going to be 10 or 15 tech companies that you won't remember one from the last? And so I was very, it was like stand-up comedy. You know, every Monday was different. And some material worked, so I'd repeat it, you know. And so I started, you know, I started kind of building tricks like that. But a lot of them also had come from prior companies because this was my fifth company. And at my second company, support.com, I got this idea that everyone should be a CEO. I don't know if you tried this in your company, but now there's this trend towards flat organizations and no middle management.
11:01That didn't exist then, that concept. But when we were 35 people at support, I put a big, white, sticky 3M paper on the wall with everyone's name. I said, by the end of the week, put next to your name what it is you do. What are you CEO of? And it's something that should matter to the other 35 people, to all of us. And we know who to call if the phone system is not working or the sales funnel didn't happen or whatever. And people did it. And I was like, okay, you're CEO of that. And we carried that into Zynga because I remember, and I'm sure you've had this experience, that you come in and you're just overwhelmed, right?
11:41And you came in kind of fresh from the weekend or Memorial Day, and you want to play offense and go for it and like, what are we going to build? But by like 10 a.m., you're so beat down from your inbox. You're like, oh, shit. There's so many things that have to be taken care of. my head's going to explode. And what I started doing on Mondays was just writing all those categories of things on my whiteboard. And then I would bring in, this is maybe, we were maybe, starting when we were maybe 18, 30 people, I would just bring in like, I don't know, the like seven or eight leaders around me. And we would just take an hour and go through my whiteboard.
12:25And I'd be like, who can own that? Who can own that? And I would like, let's keep going until there's a name next to everything on my whiteboard. And I was like, oh, I guess you call that delegation, right? So, you know, there's things like that, but I just, I, you, you kind of do it from, from just ruthless need, you know, you've, you're not going to survive otherwise.
12:48David Novak:I love that idea, just a ruthless need. That's, that's a great way to think about it. And, and, you know, you, you, you talk about growing, you know, 30 people, 50 people, you know, you just keep growing the people side of the equation. If you had to nail down one thing, one thing that you'd absolutely have to have if you were going to hire somebody, what would it be? I was looking for these people that had what I called a broken resume. I was looking for somebody who had a bit of a chip on their shoulder. They'd been an expert witness. So they'd been in this position where they were the ones who knew the answer.
13:26They were closest to the data, but furthest from the decision. I was like, I want this frustrated expert witness like I was. I want this person who's like, if anyone ever gives me a chance, I'm going to crush it because I've known the answers for 10 years and nobody listens to me. And there are all kinds of different people that present with that. And they could be extroverts, often introverts, but that was the one thing I was looking for. And then once they came in, I had to build a moral contract with them. So it wasn't enough that you had this chip on your shoulder and you had this broken resume because you've been kind of mistreated.
14:06You've been let down at your prior companies. You're cynical. And, you know, there's such a fine line between being hopeful and cynical. And so I'm trying to get you back to hopeful and optimistic and convince you that this is different. And this time you should take a chance on us and on me. And so I'd try to build this moral contract with you of, Hey, give us a chance. Give me a chance. Like if, if you really give it all here and, and, and we don't recognize that, um, I want you, you can come back to me and tell me, like, you can tell me that I'm full of shit or that, you know, you took this hill and no one appreciated or noticed it or gave you the chance to do that because this is your chance.
14:58It's like this is the one time that you can give everything you've got and actually be over rewarded for it.
15:09David Novak:Hey, Mark, that's really interesting because, you know, you didn't start out immediately as an entrepreneur. You worked at Bain, you worked some other places, you know, and, you know, I've heard you say that, you know, I was, I failed miserably in that corporate environment because, you know, I told people the truth. So you start this company up and being a truth teller was like the most important thing to you to get to find people like yourself that could give them that home space where they could tell it like it is. One of these deep core values is intellectual honesty. and this idea that it's not about ego or role or title or anything.
15:51I don't care if you're the most junior person in the room. If you've got the right answer, it has to win. Yeah, and we try to build a culture around that intellectual honesty and the desire to surface hard truths. And that's the hardest part. It's not probably every corporate boardroom or meeting you walk in, they'll say, duh, of course you want intellectual honesty. we want to win. But the hardest part is surfacing the hard truths. Like this product we've all been working on isn't quite right. That dog isn't going to hunt and it's a B plus at best. And we are not going to win if we continue on this path.
16:37And these are the elephants in the room that so often nobody, everyone, it's inside of each of us and we're afraid to call it out. And it makes us just kind of check out. That's the hardest part is the elephants in the room and these hard, awkward truths.
16:56David Novak:So, you know, I work for you. I come in, I tell you that you don't have any clothes on, you know, how do you recognize that person when it happens? Or what do you do when you get that revelation where you say, hey, this guy or this woman is really, you know, you know, giving me that hard truth. I want to celebrate you in terms of the precedent and the culture that that's the culture I want. You know, I want people to challenge our most sacred truths and beliefs. You know, I always say that the word corporate means lack of thought or intent. And so I want people that are forcing us back to the first principles and asking these questions.
17:41And so you come in and say, Mark, I'm just not getting it. You know, this game we've all been working on, it's just not that fun or I'm worried. It doesn't feel fun. I want to stop everything and pay attention to what you are feeling and then be like, okay, that's serious. And then I'm going checking with myself, am I feeling the same thing? And if I am, I'm going to say, you know, thank you. And if I'm not, say, you know, I still really like this. Let's talk about it. What does everyone else here think? Like, do we need to get more data points? And I'll tell you like a story where unfortunately, I'm usually that person.
18:22I was usually that person at Zynga. Even, you know, It's easier as CEO, but it's still lonely. And I remember at support.com, we had raised around, and we had Morgan Stanley had done a million-dollar deal to buy our software for electronic software distribution. You don't know about ESD. You shouldn't. It's the most boring business on the planet. It's really what I learned is it's just permanent custom engineering for Morgan Stanley and Goldman Sachs. And it's just helping the IT department deploy software and make sure it's, now you don't even need it, it's in the cloud. But we had a million dollar contract.
19:08I realized that this was a shitty business, but we had investors and pipeline and a paying customer. And I said, guys, I know this is awkward and it's late, but I think we've built the wrong product and we should go after the help desk and help desk software. And I used to say there's dust on the doorknob, like no one is interested in that but us, but our software is perfect and we can deliver so much value, measurable value for the help desk. We could remotely diagnose problems without having to go to your desk or drive to your house. And not one person in the company agreed with me, not one investor.
19:52And I say, your job, it's a democratic dictatorship. And your number one job as founder and CEO is to be right, not to be liked, not to even have this investor ever want to back you again. Although if you make them money, they will. So you're not there for them to like you, you're there to make them money. that's let's let's be real so I sat in a room for two days argued with everyone and I said I hear you all but we're gonna do this we're gonna it's gonna be painful we're gonna rebuild the product but we're gonna be more successful and we did it and we were when I came back as CEO for the second time at Zynga I was in a product meeting with my words with friends team and they had built this they were a bunch of like 20 something dudes building a game, working on a very proudly popular game that was mainly played by middle-aged women.
20:46And they thought it was slow and boring. And they built fast play. They built a whole different game that was high adrenaline and it's time limited and you got to take turns and get numbers, words and numbers. And I was like, what are you doing? Like, did you test the top of the funnel? Like what percent of our players want it? And they're like, well, you know, that wasn't very useful because only, you know, less than 1 % of our players even clicked on that. And we're going to force them to try it. And I was like, what are you doing? Like, this is insanity, right? And they were like, look, you know, you're going to demotivate the team that's been building this if you don't let them finish building it and launching it.
21:32And I said, guys, you can launch whatever you can in one week. And we're going to look at the numbers and then put a bullet in the head of this thing. And it was disastrous. They couldn't, even forcing people, they couldn't get them to play it. You know, and so, you know, I'm giving you examples where, you know, I was right. And it's a lot easier as CEO. I'll have to scratch my head and think for a minute of, you know, examples where, Well, a lot of times I'd find these expert witnesses in the crowd and these kind of bold people would come up to me after an all-hands meeting and say, you know, I hear what you're saying, Mark, but none of what you're saying is translating to the ranks.
22:11and no one, everyone says Pincus just cares about monetization. And even though you say these other things about what players thank us for. And so they're telling me there's cynicism in the ranks. And they'll say, you know, this and this and this never actually happened. And then I'd say, okay, you're hired. And they'd say, what do you mean? And this kid, Dan Guerin did that and said, he kept, he was a truth teller. And he kept coming back to me and telling me I was full of shit. And I was like, great. I want you to be my tech assistant. And it's your job to fix all these things that you're pointing out to me where I'm fully ashamed.
22:47David Novak:I love that. Give the guy the problem they keep giving you. I love it. You know, you talk about the importance of the first user experience. And what matters most when you come right out of the gate? There's getting the true signal, which is what's telling you that this product has hit that this is a launch-worthy product. So that's kind of the, before you even get to, quote unquote, out of the gates, we got to make sure that you are testing and iterating fast enough to get to TrueSignal. And then you know TrueSignal when you get it. And even more important than knowing TrueSignal is knowing what's not TrueSignal.
23:32And the reality is, and you I'm sure know this, David and your listeners, but when you find true love, you don't need someone to tell you you found true love. You're not like, well, you know, I've measured how I feel versus all my previous relationships or, you know, to me, the bolognese sauce that's right, the song that speaks to you, when it hits that note, it's just right and you know it. What we all struggle with is when it's not quite right. And we want it to be right. And we're not, we just don't have the patience or we just want to move forward with our lives. It's like, all right, I can't work on this bolognese sauce forever.
24:13I got to ship it. I got to, the same with your product. And so what do you do when it's not true signal? And that's the hardest part of all this, because 99 % of the time we don't have true signal. So the question I push product founders on is like, what does winning look like for you? How ambitious are you? And how are you going to know when it's true signal? What are you going to do when it's not true signal? So that's my first point to answer your question. Once you get, and I'd say, get in the market, get in front of people with whatever you can, as soon as you can, because it's wrong anyway, it's going to fail anyway.
24:54And you want it to fail for the right reasons so you can learn the right lessons. And then you want to be like, move fast and be creatively productive. But then when you finally get to something, to answer your question, when you finally get to something that is, you feel launch worthy in your launch product, I've never been like the shock and awe, like do the gigantic marketing campaign. In consumer, what I'm looking for is something that works and it'll work scalably. It'll repeat. And then it doesn't take a lot of brainpower to figure out the execution of that. The hardest part is getting to true signal.
25:37The hardest part is getting to something that has the potential to scale. And then anybody can do the other parts. I don't want to say it's not valuable, but there's many, many people that know what to do once you have a formula that works.
Read the full transcript
25:55David Novak:Hello, friends. I hope you're loving this conversation. And be sure to stay tuned to the very end of the episode. As always, David and I are going to debrief some of the concepts that he talks about with this week's guest. So stay tuned to the very end, and I will see you soon. You're obviously very thoughtful about that formula. And you've been a developer for many, many years. And you have this framework of how you build products, which you describe as proven, better, new. Walk me through that. It's based on a foundational philosophy and principle that I have that your instincts are right and your ideas are wrong most of the time.
26:37That your instincts are pretty much always right. That gut feeling that you have that is haunting you is right. I'm sure you've had amazing instincts over the years in the restaurant business about this thing that we all want and we don't know we want it. But the idea we package that in is often wrong. So if we start with this principle, your instincts are right, but your ideas are probably wrong, then what do we do with that to prosecute it? And I want to convince your listeners to learn this framework and try it from themselves called Proven Better New. And the idea is this. Let's isolate where your instincts are.
27:22Let's not feel for the wrong reasons. So by proven, I don't know, let's say you and I want to start a new kind of restaurant concept that's, I don't know, my friend David Friedberg did the robotic restaurants, right? But I love David Friedberg, but he did too much new. It's like, okay, the robotic, no employee restaurant, that's a lot of new. Now, let's not also make everything on the menu made of quinoa. I'm like, that's a lot of new. You know, he might have failed for the wrong reasons. What if it's like, I'm going to find what's proven, the best burritos in San Francisco, the best burgers, the best pizza, like whatever people already love, and I'm going to copy that exactly.
28:10And then my only new idea is that it's much cheaper because there's no humans involved and it's all machines. It's cheaper. It's 24-7. That would be better. And so the idea is proven is what is already proven with this audience, this platform that you don't have to prove it. You know, if you could just recreate that exact slice of pizza, people would love it. I've wanted to make this hot sauce forever. And if I could replicate this one formula, you know, I know people would like the sauce. But better is what will 10 out of 10 of the existing customers say, yeah. what you think is better is new.
28:54So, you know, Dave Freeberg might have thought better was quinoa. That's new. I don't think quinoa is better. If you hit it from me and I didn't know it was quinoa, I might be okay with it. But better is usually more like, you know, it's half the price, you know, half the time. I mean, in the, you know, restaurant food service kind of category, But better is something that is obviously better and matters to our audience. And new is this novel idea that you're passionate about. And the point is, if we could isolate that, we don't feel for the wrong reasons. and then we could try four or 40 or 400 shots on goal against your instinct, which, you know, David Freeberg was probably ultimately right that we will have robots, you know, doing, you know, fast service, food service 24 seven.
29:51And, and, you know, and he'll get to say, look, I was right. It's just his timing was wrong. His probably the food product was wrong, So that's the idea of proven, better, new.
30:00David Novak:You know, I love that. And I always talked about it in terms of putting a unique image on a known quantity. The known quantity is the proven. The uniqueness is the better and that leads you to the new. You know, I love it. You know, and you're obviously, you know, you know how to make ideas work, but you're a very creative guy. You come up with the ideas. How do you fuel your creativity? Where do you get your inspiration? Well, I just came back from Burning Man. And I really am that cliche that the tech founder that goes to Burning Man every year. But even, you know, in seriousness about that, it's what keeps so much so many of us coming back to Burning Man is, it's just such a great cocktail party, you're exposed to so many different people from different walks of life.
30:50and so many different creative ideas about how we can live and be, it's like the best Halloween ever. And everyone's really living into these parts and personas. You can try on different personas. So as a social and artistic construct, Burning Man's amazing. I used to go to the TED conference. They expose you to so much new ideas. So there's kind of intellectually stimulating gatherings, But then in between those, there's so often living in what I call the abyss, which is this place we're in in between the ideas that we are passionately pursuing and prosecuting, which is for founders, it's a lot of our life, you know, unless you're lucky enough to be building your one love your whole life.
31:42And during that abyss, I try to just do things that keep me more and more open to, you know, I also sound very Northern California, but things that get past our ego and our story and narrative about ourselves. Like if I define myself as someone who makes consumer social applications, I might not hear what the world really could use me to do in this next chapter. And it could be just something totally different. And that's a lot of times the hardest part is getting past our own, you know, limiting ideas about ourselves. What was your biggest time of this and how'd you get out of it? Well, there's a real competition.
32:35I mean, I would call my whole career working for other companies an abyss of sorts, but it didn't feel like one because I had a job and it was structured. But I'd say, you know, after support.com and when that was in the nuclear winter for consumer internet, But that was kind of a long, dark abyss. I only got out of it because I started meeting with Reid Hoffman and Ev Williams and these other guys that were really turned on still by this consumer internet and talking about what it could be. Um, and, and then I invested in Napster and Friendster and I, and I started to see this, the seeds of what became social networking.
33:28My second huge abyss was, was after my social network tribe.net had failed. and it was like three years of just, you know, I had some money so I didn't, really didn't need to work or start another company and it looked like I was just gonna be a retired rich guy and no one around me believed I would come back to work and I was 41 when I started Zynga and I remember VCs I talked to were like, Mark, if I just knew you were all in, I couldn't not back you But you just have this good life and it's easy and you're 41 and you have all this money. And I just can't believe you're going to go back and work that hard again.
34:15And so it was a lot of people around me just finding it difficult to believe that I could still be hungry and for good reason. And it's funny, when I started what became Zynga, I dabbled. and I would spend like an hour a week on it. I was not like charging and all in. You know, it wasn't until I launched, turned on my poker game that then like I couldn't stop. And then it was like just, it was so fun and so all consuming and it was on 24 seven. So was I, you know, and I want everyone to have this experience that like, I'm sure you've had this, David, where you're so into it that you're like waiting for Monday morning because you know you're going to burn out your team if you're like emailing them all night long and trying to meet on Sunday.
35:13And you're like, okay, okay, okay, I got it. I'm going to save all these emails I wrote last night until 6 a.m. because it'll freak them out if they're getting. I would write emails to the entire company that would send it like 3 or 4 a.m. on Saturday night. and my team be like, you can't do that. You're sending a wrong message to them that they're supposed to be up right now. But it was like that. It was like, oh my God, there's so much to do, right? So anyway, I'm giving you my answer being not in the abyss, but that's also kind of what pulls you out.
35:48David Novak:Pride was one of those points where it was an abyss for you and it was a failure. And one of the things that you talk about is that you were too ambitious. Talk about how do you manage ambition as a leader? It's probably my biggest Achilles heel and downfall. And you could look at my career in waves and I'm probably not alone. You see me humbled. Like when I first started my first company, Freeloader, I was so humbled and I was just like, I don't know the right analogy, but like a single cell amoeba trying to grow legs, trying to crawl on the shore. And I was like willing to do anything, take any victory.
36:33And I have this big idea after Freeloader to do PC one, this free PC. And I'm humbled again because I talk to consumers and nobody wants it. And I'm like, oh, I had this big idea. No one wants my idea, but I want to do something. And so I'm so humbled again to like, okay, I'm just going to make this one little piece of technology that has some value. And then I do this really boring company with support.com, help desk, you know, software for help desk automation, super boring company that goes public. Then after that success, I'm ambitious again. I'm like, I can do anything. And then when I come to Tribe, I'm like, I'm going to create, not just like the consumer social network, like what was Friendster and became the Facebook and not just the professional one, which was LinkedIn.
37:26I'm also going to do Craigslist, everything in this one place. I'm going to give you a social profile, a professional profile. I'm going to let you do listings like Craigslist and jobs like LinkedIn and dating and community. I was like, I'm going to build it all in this one place. and I'm going to like be everything and win all these. I'm not going to win one market. I'm going to win five. And I built a product that was so complex and got the one fundamental thing, which was trust wrong and couldn't do any of those things without trust. I mean, and so, you know, failed miserably. I mean, and it really takes some imagination to realize how much I failed with Tribe.
38:14I mean, this was not like, oh, sure, what are the odds? Imagine that there were 10 social networks and eight of them succeeded. Like Bebo was acquired by AOL, Tag became big. I mean, there was multiple social networks that succeeded, that got to scale, you know, got acquired. I was one of like two out of 10 that failed. So it was like a real act of willpower for me to fail when everyone around me was actually succeeding. So you don't hear that often.
38:49David Novak:A real act of willpower. Now you got this new book out called Life at the Speed of Play. You alluded to this a little bit earlier, but I can't come back to it. Why play? Why the word play? I think that that is the vibe that we should be in to create. I think that if you're in a playful place, you're going to be more creative. You're going to be more drawn to things that have signal because when we're playing, we're present, right? And we're only driven by, there's no should in play. You don't say I should play, right? I really should play more today. you know, David, we should be playing more, right?
39:34No one says that we play is something that comes from like what you want. And, and it's so important. So, so first of all, I just think it's the, I, we struggled, we call the book life of the speed of play, or proven better new. And again, I don't think titles matter. But I was like, the vibe I want to get across with this book is, it's one big invitation to everyone listening to change your approach to how you're building that is more playful because I think you'll have more fun and be more successful.
40:08David Novak:Can somebody serious, that takes business serious, can they play? I mean, can anybody do this? What's your thinking of it. The world's most successful, richest person, Elon, is one of the most playful. And that's why I start the book saying, in the future, in this world that we're hurtling towards with AI and robots and automation, we're all going to in some way live like Elon. And I think that Elon is having a lot of fun. And I think he's working his ass off, probably harder than any of us. But I think he's also really having fun. He's laughing a lot and he's doing things that are fun and joyful and playful and silly.
40:57And I think, you know, I mean, only Elon could put fart mode in the most successful selling car of all time.
41:12Ford Motor Company wasn't going to do that. You know, GM, can you imagine like the meeting inside of GM where the junior person is like, I'm going to, they're in front of them with a PowerPoint of why fart mode makes such a good idea in the car. I mean, that would be amazing. That's like an SNL skit. So, you know, I would say to anybody, yeah, to, to, put a playful approach into what you're doing and you're going, it's, it's almost unfair, you know, that you're going to be more successful and have more fun. And that's part of the message of the book.
41:49David Novak:You know, the one thing that about Zynga, you being a founder of Zynga, I think you were like founder of the year because of that. I mean, you know, you, and then you're a CEO and you were ranked by fortune is like one of the worst five CEOs in, in the country. You know, So how'd you get over that? You just have to laugh at it in both times. You have to, you know, when they finally get in around to give you some award, it's like, you know, it's probably, you know, it's like the phenomenon of being on the cover of Fortune, that that's when you should really worry the most, you know, and not celebrate the most.
42:29That's when you're like, oh, you know. Oh, yeah. I've peeked in their eyes. I can only go down from here. So, you know, I think you don't take your, your self-worth and validation from these outward things. And I remember this great journalist was, was writing a profile on me in Vanity Fair and she was interviewing me and the Forbes list came out with me on it. And she kept putting it in front of me saying, are you amazed? Is this a great day for you? And I was like, no, this is cringey. Like, I don't want this kind of recognition at all. And she still like took real liberty when she wrote up the story because my answer didn't play the way, the narrative that she wanted.
43:20So I don't think many founders like that being on the cover thing. But I do kind of enjoy and take an honor when I'm named one of the five worst CEOs in America. By the way, there's a lot of competition for that, right? I mean, that's kind of a harder honor to get to, to be that disliked by a business community. And the level of irony in it, I find so funny because I'd say 99 % of the time, the founder is the only friend the investors have in the boardroom. I mean, most of the board members don't own any of the company. So the founder might not make the decision that you would like, which if you're a hedge fund, it's buy back your stock so they can flip it.
44:12I get it. And we did eventually. I had Zynga buy back like$800 million of stock when it was at a low point. No one thanks you later for that, by the way. No one ever looks and says, whoa, you bought that back at$220 ,000 and then sold the company at$10 ,000. Good job. Don't get one of those. But it is funny to me that I'm looking around and these are fine people in the boardroom, but none of them own your stock. And I'm like, I don't know. I would rather know that there's some people in that boardroom that own a lot of stock and they are not being three-month greedy, but I want them to be three-year greedy.
44:54And I still don't get it. I'm like, I don't care if the founder controls the company. If they have a lot of ownership in that company and a lot of their net worth in that company, I'm like, I'm going to bet that eventually they're going to care for some reason or another. At least they don't want all their engineers leaving. And so it just was funny to me when I came back as CEO of Zynga, that when I announced the new CEO, who was like the golden resume in the gaming industry, the stock went up like 80%. And then when I came back as CEO, the stock went down. And then when I hired another CEO, the stock went up.
45:37Clearly, the stock market was voting against me. But if they'd seen, what did I do? When I came back as CEO within six weeks, I closed half our global studios, shut down three quarters of our games, laid off 18 % of the employees. You know, I did things that were very grown up, you know, not lifestyle CEO stuff. But, you know, but but I also didn't spend any of my time selling it to Wall Street. You know, so maybe that's, you know, maybe maybe maybe next time I should be a little better at like taking them along with me.
46:18David Novak:I was going to ask you about that. So when you came back as CEO for the second time, what did you tell yourself as a leader that you wanted to do differently? I didn't tell it to myself coming in, but I lived it very quickly, which was there's something beautiful about being named one of the five worst CEOs in America. And there's something beautiful about having$1.75 stock. Nobody gives any f*** anymore. No one's paying attention. You get on your earnings call and it's like, I'm blah, blah, blah. And I'm the assistant to the junior analyst for blah, blah, blah, securities, who was too busy to be on the call, but I'm here taking notes.
47:00And I'm like, cool, we're going to have fun. No one but you and me is listening right now. And that was just something very freeing in that, versus when your every move is in the Wall Street Journal and being scrutinized. Now you're in the opposite place. They assume you're an idiot. Your stock shows it. And there was a real kind of adventure and fun and beauty in that. And when I first came back, we had all of these longtime valuable employees that were having this crisis of confidence in the company and they'd need to meet with me. And they really just wanted to be re-upped on their stock or they wanted their option price reset at the low point, you know, and they wouldn't say it.
47:51And then they were like the walking dead. They were like walking around like zombies because they like had been through the rocket ship and the love. And now that it's like no one's admiring you're at this company and And you don't have this paper wealth anymore, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I quickly learned, don't waste your, Colleen McCreary, my chief people officer had taught me, don't waste your time on the dead, like focus on the living. And I was like, oh, I said to Dan, who was my chief of staff or tech assistant, he kept coming to this key person's right to quit or you got to talk them into saying, don't even tell me about them anymore.
48:33I don't even want to meet them. Tell them they should leave. I met with a couple and I was like, look, if you're having second thoughts, just leave now because you're going to leave in six months. Get along with your new career anyway. And the lowest point, which is the high point for me, was we had this CFO who was a great CFO, David Lee. And he said, you need a COO. And that's the right next step in my career. So you should make me COO and I'll be COO and CFO. and I thought about it. I was like, and he said, you know, it's three weeks to earnings and we can't take, it just wouldn't look good for the CFO to quit now.
49:10And I was like, yeah, you're right. You're right. And I said, Dan, I got to be real with you. I think you're a very good CFO. Like you're a B plus right now. And I think you could be an A, you could dominate the job. And once you do that, I would totally be open to CO, even though the previous eight COs we had all failed. I could try one more time. Who knows? But, and he was like, but this isn't, you know, but I could be COO of this other company. And I was like, you should do that. Like, that's your next career step. This isn't, you know, and he quit. And, and then I wrote this investor letter, which you could go back and see, or, or ask GPT to pull it up.
49:52But it was so freeing. Cause you know how corporations just lie to their, lie through their teeth. They're like, oh, you know, Mark had to leave for personal reasons. He had to leave to spend more time with his family. He had to like, you know, blah, blah, blah, lie, lie, lie, you know? And I was like, I was like, I'm going to write the truth. And I wrote something in the letter, like our CFO has decided to resign to pursue better opportunities. It was just so fun. And you get to do that. And we get on the call and we release the letter. And I'm holding my breath like, oh, no, they're gonna think there's like something bad of the company.
50:35Nobody cared. Nobody. They knew I was telling the truth. They're like, yeah, I quit too. Like, you know, who wants to be CFO of this broken dollar stock company? I get, I believe he was finding a better opportunity. So anyway, I wouldn't say I told myself something, but I did get such a learned, lived experience that everyone should go through that. Like Jeff Bezos was that$2 stock. Everyone should have that experience. And it was just really being in this place where nobody else in the world believes in you. Everyone assumes this is a failure. You're a failure. You know, you're not the wonder kin they thought you were.
51:17And the world has just lowered their expectations so far. And I just wish I'd done more with it.
51:23David Novak:Well, you did all right. You did sell that company, I think, for around$14 billion. That's not bad, you know? It's not bad, but I have to be honest. Let's be honest. That is like a fall ball. In an industry this big, to have the position that we had to be so early, so resourced, even when I came back as CEO, I think we had like a billion four. I mean, even after we'd squandered on bad acquisitions, I mean, it was so well set up and such a big industry. It's an industry that should have multiple hundred billion dollar companies today or multi hundred billion dollar companies. And the fact that there aren't any is more of a testament to a lack of leadership strategy and execution.
52:11You know, there's not many industries like the game industry that are that big, have that much money in it and don't have any big companies.
52:19David Novak:That's it. I appreciate the honesty. That's great. Mark, it's been a lot of fun, and I want to have some more with my lightning round of questions. Are you ready for this? Let's do it. The three words that best describe you? Truth teller, big heart. If you could be one person for a day beside yourself, who would it be? Elon. Your biggest pet peeve? Being intellectually lazy. Who would play you in a movie? Probably Jesse Eisenberg. What's a habit you have that's been instrumental to the success that you've had? I have extreme ADHD and really low attention span. And somehow, oddly, that seems to really help me.
53:01David Novak:The video game you wish you would have created. Minecraft. What's something you've been curious about lately that has absolutely nothing to do with business? The galaxy, the cosmos, astronomy. The one thing you do just for you. Surfing. If I turned the radio on in your car, what would I hear? Probably the all-in podcast. What's something about you that few people would know? How deeply I love my family, my partner and my five kids. What's one of your daily rituals, something that you never miss? I have a morning practice. It's only nine minutes, but it's breathing and five minutes of meditation, which for me is a lot.
53:50David Novak:Awesome. We're out of the lightning round. Great job. And I got just a few more questions. I'll let you go. Okay. You're very definitive. Okay. You're a truth teller. You tell it like you see it. You know, how coachable are you? I'm actually really coach. I'm one of the most overcoached people. Um, it's just rare that I find these coaches, but, uh, but I mean, I've, I've had the same life coach for like 22 years. And then I've been coached by Bing Gordon. I, I have a men's work coach now. So I was lucky enough to be coached by Bill Campbell, um, near the end of his life. So I'd say I'm very coachable.
54:41David Novak:You know, how do you think about leadership at home? You mentioned how much you love your family. It is somewhat similar to how I ran Zynga in the form that my form of family governance really is like a democratic dictatorship also. So the sense that I want everyone to express their preference and make, passionately make their case. and then in the case of Zynga, there's one decision maker and in the case of my family, there's two. But I'd say it's pretty similar and I do actively seek feedback from my kids and starting when they were like four, I asked them how I was doing as a dad. That's great.
55:32David Novak:When you think about your life and all you've already accomplished, so much. What do you see as your unfinished business? I still don't feel like I've built that internet treasure, that service people can't remember life before or imagine life without. And that's still my dream. And what's important to me is that I'm aligned with that dream, not that I accomplish it. All that matters is I know that I worked, I gave everything I had to passionately pursue that. And of course, I'd rather get more satisfaction if I accomplished it. But what really matters is that I do something with that. All right, last question here.
56:22David Novak:What's one piece of advice you'd give to anyone who wants to be a better leader? Find your introspective practice. Like how, find things that force you to come back to your truest, most authentic self, and then find a way to bring that authenticity into your leadership and be vulnerable, be vulnerable and authentic and trust that your teams will be more motivated by that. Well, Mark, I've enjoyed this conversation a tremendous amount. Me too. particularly enjoyed what you see, the advice you'd give to any leader. You walk and talk on that. You know, you're real, you're authentic. You know, I love the story that you said, Hey, not the story, but I love the fact that, Hey man, I basically did a curb chin up in the gaming industry.
57:17David Novak:We should have done a hell of a lot better, but that's the kind of honesty that is very refreshing. I appreciate you very much. Yeah, this is really fun. And I think that you bring so much humility to your approach to wanting to just go deeper on leadership. So thank you.
57:43David Novak:David, I wasn't quite sure what to expect from Mark Pincus, the guy who invented words with friends. And I will just say right now that I was highly entertained during that entire conversation. And he is a freaking genius. Yeah, he definitely is a very creative guy who knows how to really delight the world with his ideas, which is, you know, what he wants to do. He wants to create things that are very useful and makes the world a better place. And that's what really turns him on. So I thought that was great. I also like the fact that, you know, he wanted his people to really own, you know, whatever they're working on in this company, like a CEO would own it.
58:31David Novak:And he said, you need to be CEO of something. And that reminded me of one of the things I at least try to do at Yum Brands, where I always said, you know, how are you leading in your piece of Yum? Because, you know, if everybody takes their piece of the company and leads it and acts like they're the leader and does proactive things, then it'll all add up and the company will really do great things. So, you know, very interesting conversation that I enjoyed very much. I did, too. And I'm excited, David, to get your take and your stance on some of the key concepts that I pulled out from this conversation.
59:05David Novak:And the first one I really want to talk about is this idea of play. Obviously, Mark has that book that just came out, Life at the Speed of Play. And you ask him in the episode, you know, why did you choose that title? And he talks about how if we as leaders incorporate play into our work, how things become more fun for the people that we work with. We're more creative. We end up being more successful and efficient and all these things. But I'm curious, David, when you think about play as a leader, what do you think about? Like, how does that show up in the way that you work and lead and live? Well, I think, number one, it means that you need to do what you love.
59:45David Novak:OK, and if you can do that, you know, you're never going to have to work another day in your life. And, you know, when I when I always think of that, I always think of Warren Buffett, who told me he loved what he did so much investing in companies and growing companies and investing in people that, you know, he tap danced to work, you know. So, you know, he had fun. It wasn't like he was going to work. He was going to pursue his hobby. And, you know, that that leads to, I think, true, true greatness. And, you know, I think if you can find ways to bring fun to the workplace and your culture, then you're really on your way.
1:00:24David Novak:And, you know, I always, you know, one of our big values, which we had was recognition. We wanted to recognize people and have fun doing it. And, you know, one of the ways how I did it is I gave away rubber chickens when I was president of KFC and cheese heads when I ran Pizza Hut and walk the talk teeth when I ran Yum! Brands. And, you know, but it created a smile. And it's one of the reasons why I started out every one of our meetings with a Yum! Cheer. Give me a Y! Give me a U! Give me an M! What's that spell? What's that spell? What's that spell? All right. You guys are good. You couldn't do a yum cheer and have a frown on your face.
1:01:05David Novak:You know, it's like make your workplace be as playful as it could. One thing that came to mind as he was talking about play is that humans are drawn to play and fun. It's almost like a primal instinct. And I'm thinking about, David, the photo in your office at the Yum headquarters in Louisville, the picture of all the folks on the Great Wall of China doing the yum cheer. So it doesn't really matter where you're leading, what the culture is like there. people love play and it unlocks something in people that allows them to be more creative, efficient, and productive. That is by far and away my favorite picture that I have or photo, which is 1 ,500 restaurant managers in China doing the yum cheer on the Great Wall.
1:01:49David Novak:In this communist country where people supposedly are oppressed, people want to have fun everywhere. David, another theme that's really stuck with me from this conversation is the idea of intellectual honesty. Mark said that he values intellectual honesty above all else. He says, I don't care if you're the most junior person in the room. If you have the right answer, that's the one that has to win. Talk a little bit about intellectual honesty and what your take on that concept is, how you seek it out. Well, I think what you want to have is healthy debate, healthy decisions. And the only way you can have healthy debate is that everybody feels free to tell people how they feel and why, and no matter where you're at in the company.
1:02:32David Novak:And, you know, I think as a leader, you want to cultivate that kind of transparency and openness and truth telling. So, you know, I think, you know, what Mark knows is that that truth telling is the way you get the best solution. And it doesn't matter who you are in the company. If you've got the truth, you definitely want to want to want to hear it. So I think we all have to have truth tellers and we all want to desperately, you know, and passionately want to have the truth. And speaking truth, you know, I was giving him a little accolade for selling his company for close to$14 billion. And he said, wait a second, you know, we should have done a heck of a lot better.
1:03:16David Novak:And, you know, and that's seeing the world the way out really is. And, you know, I appreciated that honesty as well. It was very refreshing because a lot of people just take a big, big lift, big victory lap with a great sale like that. But he positioned it like a curb chin up. I also loved when he was talking about how, you know, getting the accolade as the worst CEO, one of the top, you know, whatever, worst CEOs in the country was harder to get than one of the best CEOs in the country. And I feel like, you know, his entire personality and approach to life is just that. It's saying what's on his mind and what everyone else in the room is thinking.
1:03:59David Novak:That's his hallmark. And what's interesting, this was something that he learned, you know, being in the corporate environment, is that he was not that successful. And one of the reasons why he thinks he wasn't successful is that he told the truth, but he wasn't necessarily good at doing it in a way that everybody wanted to hear it. You know, he was just blatantly right out in your face as a truth teller. And but when he started his companies, the thing that he promotes the most is the behavior that he wants to have is he wants to bring all those people that are frustrated because they can't tell the truth.
1:04:34David Novak:He wants them working for him and he wants to create that environment where they can feel free to do it. David, the next thing that I want your take on is about his framework for product development. And you talked a little bit about it in the episode, proven, better, new. But I want to know how you think about product development and what that proven, better, new framework really allows for in innovation and product. Well, I think, Cooley, there are very, very few products that are created in a vacuum that are totally new and have never, ever been done before. And what he's basically saying is most of the big ideas are when you go into big, established, proven categories, you find out, you know, what, you know, what the real opportunity is there.
1:05:27David Novak:And you create a product that's better, you know, whether it's half the price or superior quality or whatever, you know, but you create a better product in a proven category. And that leads to new. That leads to the new product that's going to be a home run. And, you know, I always call that in my way of trying to simplify things is just bring a unique image to a known quantity. Okay. You know, a good example for me would be, you know, at Pizza Hut. You know, California Pizza Kitchen was this concept that was really doing really well. And so I took my team out to California and we ate all their specialty pizzas and they had Thai chicken pizza and barbecue chicken pizza and barbecue BLT pizza, all these specialty pizzas.
1:06:19David Novak:And so, and it was proven because this was like the fastest growing new concept in the pizza industry. The only thing I did is just go back to our team and said, how can we take the existing products that we have on our make table and do what California Pizza Kitchen is doing. And so we put more pepperonis on the pizza and call the pepperoni lovers. We put more meat on the pizza and call the meat lovers. We put veggies on the pizza, call the veggie lovers and so on and so on. And we created a whole new category of mainstream pizzas with that specialty pizza idea that California Pizza Kitchen started.
1:07:00David Novak:But you start with something proven, okay? You make it better, and it can work for you and your customers. And then that becomes new. And that's exactly what the lover's line of pizzas did for us. David, that concept is something that I think about a lot, even when I'm walking through the grocery store aisles, because you tell the story too about Cool Ranch Doritos and how you took that known quantity of ranch dressing and applied it to the Doritos chip and you got Cool Ranch Doritos, which by the way, is one of my favorite fun facts about you, but it's just a fun way to examine the world around you.
1:07:36David Novak:I think, I mean, obviously what we do is very different from gaming, which is very different from restaurants and, and the food industry, but it's just a fun way to stay creatively stimulated. I think is to look at things that are working across the board and in any industry and glean what's, what could make your product or your service even better from those that are already working really well? To me, I think it's the huge well for product innovation is pattern thinking, looking at what other people are doing that's working and then figuring out how you can make it work in your business. And I think that is a tried and true method that every leader should think about when they're thinking about how they drive innovation in their company.
1:08:23David Novak:So David, as we wrap this episode today, what are the main things that you want our listeners to walk away really thinking about? Well, cool. I think there's basically three things that we talked about here. One is understand the importance of play and having fun at what you do. Number two, you know, be intellectually honest, you know, promote the truth, look for the truth, seek the truth, and then celebrate it when you hear it. And then the third thing I'd say is this proven, better new model is really great. And that leads to the kind of pattern thinking that can really create great breakthroughs that will really satisfy your customers.
1:09:05David Novak:Awesome. David, thank you so much for another episode of How Leaders Lead. Thanks to Mark Pincus for taking time to be on the show today. And thank you to our listeners for tuning in to another episode of How Leaders Lead. We'll see you next week.
1:09:23you
From the publisher
Back in 2007, Mark Pincus had a gut feeling that adults would play games on their phones if they were just woven into their daily lives.
On that instinct, he founded Zynga and built the biggest games of the early social internet — including FarmVille, Words With Friends, and Zynga Poker. Four years later, they had over a billion users. Safe to say, Mark’s instincts were right.
But according to Mark, that’s where a lot of leaders lose the plot. They have the right instincts but then put the wrong ideas around those instincts. They try to change too much. They don’t iterate quickly. Or worst of all, their culture doesn’t let people be intellectually honest about what’s not working.
In this conversation, you’ll see how to avoid those mistakes with Mark’s “Proven-Better-New” framework for designing products. Plus, he opens up about his (very public) fall from Silicon Valley’s graces and the surprising freedom that came with it. It’s a must-listen conversation for anyone who’s building something – whether that’s a company, a product, or a team.
This episode is for you if:
You want to develop products people love
You want to have more fun at work (or hey, just in general)
You’re trying to build a culture that’s intellectually honest
You’re navigating a low point in your career or company
Take your learning further. Get proven leadership advice from these (free!) resources:
The How Leaders Lead App: A vast library of 90-second leadership lessons to stay sharp on the go
Daily Insight Emails: One small (but powerful!) leadership principle to focus on each day
Whichever you choose, you can be sure you’ll get the trusted leadership advice you need to advance your career, develop your team, and grow your business.
