How can art hold space for your pain? (w/ Jessie Reyez)

0:28You're listening to How to Be a Better Human. Lose That Pain is a good breakup song. It's like the only person who knows exactly what you're feeling is the person singing about going through that exact same thing themselves. And today's guest, Jessie Reyes, knows all about that. She is a Grammy-nominated musician with more than a billion streams globally. She's performed at Coachella, made a cameo on Beyonce's Blackest King visual album, and won four Juno Awards. And here is what Jessie had to say in her TED Talk about how she's used pain and heartbreak as fuel in some of her biggest creative breakthroughs.

1:00In March of 2016, I was just getting started as a songwriter. I was knee-deep in demos and potential, but I had nothing to show for it, aka broke. And to top it off, I was incredibly heartbroken over someone who had betrayed me. One night I went into the studio and I emotionally vomited into the microphone. Kind of like what I did here. The song I made that night ended up changing the course of my life forever. I made figures. It went viral. I got signed. I went on tour. I made some bread. I officially retired my parents. I made an album. Made another album. Got called by TED Talk and now I'm here with you lovely people.

1:51Sounds great but I'm not saying my life is perfect and I obviously still deal with my fair share of problems. However, after that experience, I naturally came to subscribe to the school of thought that even when we can't see it in the moment, it seems as though the greater good is always working in our favor.

2:10We will be right back in just a moment with more from Jesse, but first we're gonna have a few podcast ads working in our favor too. Don't go anywhere.

2:25The best advice I ever got was just to let it go. The family says I smile a lot more when I'm on my own. But when I finally feel free, you get the urge to message me. Swear you never miss a beat, and this song is on repeat. I still see you in my sleep. How come I still see you when I dream? I've been running from the truth, but it don't matter what I do. What you just heard was a clip from Jesse Reyes' Still See You. Jesse is here with us today to talk about pain, heartbreak, and how creativity in art can help you heal while transforming those feelings into something new. Hello, I am Jesse Reyes, and I am an artist.

3:09What's your process when you're making music? Do you start with the lyrics? Do you start with the sounds? How do you go about it? Usually both come to me simultaneously, which I know isn't the, I've come to learn isn't the norm. The more I do sessions with people, it's more so with, like, for example, if I'm with my guitar, the chords will evoke a certain emotion and then the story will start, you know? And it might be something that I saw that day. It might be something that I went through last year. It just, it varies. It's just the only constant, I think, is life. So life will always show itself in my songs.

3:42But in terms of how I get there can vary, whether it's the chords, whether it's if I'm listening to a producer. for his ideas and his Dropbox. Every now and then it'll be lyric first, and very rarely will it ever be melody first. But I do all over. What is the difference when you're writing a song for someone else versus one for yourself? The ones that people know that I've gotten placed with other people have usually just been me creating for myself, and then after the fact, realizing that the sweater I knit didn't fit as perfect as I wish it could, but it's still a beautiful sweater so it can live somewhere else.

4:21But if I'm invited as a writer into a session, then the approach is different because first I understand that my role, when I walk into the room, I'm no longer driving. I'm no longer the captain. So I have to honor that. And then I also honor it and make sure that whatever it is we're making has chunks of truth of the artist, like of the primary singer. So if we're there and we haven't naturally come upon a topic, I'll usually ask them, when's the last time you cried? Because I feel like it serves as social acceleration. Well, now I got to ask you, what's the last time you cried? The last time I cried, three days, four, three, three days ago?

5:04Last time I cried about three days. Well, I cried like not like an emotional cry, just like watching a TV show a few days ago. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, really. And it's also like so lame. That's not lame. It was just the Ted Lasso finale. I'm like, wow, that's the most basic cry you can have. Sometimes those pieces of work can be emotive. Yeah. I also, the most like recent, actually emotional cry I had was my mom had a health scare. And then when I got the news that she was okay, just like instantly burst into. Gratitude tears are like, are the best kind of tears. Gratitude tears are the best kind of tears.

5:39I do gratitude a lot, actually. Gratitude tears, sadness tears, heartbreak tears, anger tears. every laughter tears my eyes are faucets for many different titles like it just it'll happen I feel like one thing that I find really interesting about you and really compelling is you take so many different emotions and you put them into your music but you also are you know you're really obviously a deep thinker I've listened to a bunch of your interviews and like you're talking about Eckhart Tolle you're talking about like therapy you're talking about your personal lived experience but also the things that you're reading and learning in meditation so So I'd love to get into that a little bit.

6:14Like, I know that The Power of Now is a book that means a lot to you. Yes. Tell me about that. It shifted me as a person. I wish I could have, like, I definitely, I have yet to master everything that I've learned in that book. I can't wait till I get closer. But it gave me a gift. Like, it gave me a life hack. Anyone who's read it and finished it has come back with the same feeling as me, which is like, oh, my God, I wish I read it earlier. It's helped so much. All in all, it's just, it teaches you about being present. It helped increase my quality of life a lot. What has it changed in your day-to-day?

6:47How I connect with people, how I hold space for myself, how I hold space for my experience, how I hold space for my pain, for my happiness. When I say hold space, even how I detach from it sometimes because sometimes the highs and lows come from gripping too much and thinking that you are what you feel, but you're not. The book details it in a way that's much more eloquent than what I'm doing right now. No, I think it's very eloquent. Thank you. But yeah, it teaches you about presence, and it teaches you to not identify with what it is that you're feeling. And so it makes the burdens lighter because you realize, like, even your behaviors aren't you.

7:25You might have some shitty behaviors, but it's not you. And when you give yourself a little bit of grace, you give yourself space to grow above it. You said that in a lot of your shows, when you're playing, you'll have a moment where you kind of talk to the audience. Well, first I ask, since we're all friends now, because at that point in the show, it's usually been an hour. And I ask if everyone's comfortable enough to put their hand up if they're going through something at work, and then if they're going through something with their friends, and if they're going through something with their partner, and if they're going through something with their self, and if they're going through something, like, and it's just so interesting to see hands keep going up and up and up.

8:03I've never played a show where it wasn't more than 50 % of the hands going up. And I feel like there's, first there's comfort in knowing that like, you're not the only one suffering. And it's, someone could be like, yeah, but you shouldn't be like, oh, well, things could be worse because this person's going through that. And so that's making me feel better. I know some people don't subscribe to that school of thought thinking that's healthy. But when you know that you're not so special that you're the only one that something rough is happening to, it kind of becomes a little bit easier to be like, okay, well, I'm not targeted.

8:31And it's, this is just what happens in life. that I ask for the hands and then I say, well, look around you. I hope you find comfort that we're all going through something and it can't be an accident that we're all suffering. But I think that one of my guiding lights outside of the tunnel, and not to say that I've come to my solution, but the way you find light in the tunnel in the dark moments, I feel is having your own back and taking a deep breath and realizing that everything has to be okay. Everything's going to be okay. It might not stay okay, but it can't rain forever, you know? And then everyone breathes.

9:05And then I might do some affirmations, and then I do my last song. So how do you take that feeling? How do you turn that then into music? Because that has been such a source of creative fuel for you, it seems like. It's a stepping stone. It's like a lily pad, that pain. Because figures I didn't know that was going to turn into my biggest song. I didn't know that figures was going to turn into the song that would ultimately come to change my life. And it's just wild. And yeah, you just never know what kind of pain is going to make you grow to the point that it's going to accelerate your next chapter.

9:34How do I do it? I don't know how I do it. It just happens. It's one of those beautiful things of life like that. Like, I don't know. I'm just sad about something. I'll go into the studio, some chords play, and I feel. And then I open my mouth and I close my eyes. And then all of a sudden something that wasn't there is there now. If someone's listening and they're struggling and they're trying to figure out how can I transform this into art? Oh, my God. Yeah. What advice would you give them? What are the first steps? Try everything. Try everything. But this is in life in general. Just find what you love and then drown in it.

10:08Sometimes people are scared to try because this society tells you that unless there's an exchange, unless something's giving you something back, then you shouldn't really focus on it and you should go with your plan B that's more secure. which I get it like money is we live in a capitalistic society you can't fucking ignore that but if you're watching tv for an hour a day you can give yourself an hour a day to explore whatever it is that your heart your soul your brain might be leaning towards and I say yet I don't say yet in a way that like oh well one day you'll be able to exploit it and one day you'll be able to make money off it but I say yet because you might be lucky enough that you end up at some intersection in life where you can capitalize off it and then simultaneously be happy with what you're doing because you found your vocation you're sitting in your vocation but try everything and don't be scared about people judging you because the people that are judging you are just in the stands and they're too scared to try because of everything that I just listed but paint if it doesn't work or you don't like what you painted go to the gym and if it's not for you then try singing and if it's not for you then try writing and if it's not for you try building houses and if it's not for you try volunteering like there's so many great different things that you could just try and it could turn into an outlet and it doesn't have to be necessarily creative It could just be something that's like connection based or community focused.

11:22But try. That's the only way you're going to know is if you try. Obviously, you've had huge success with music and with making your art in this type of way. But now that is also your job. Is there something that you do that's like your artistic, creative release that is not at all trying to like be a career? And just something that you're like, I'm bad at this, but it's that's like a free release for me. Well, I'm not bad at it, but I love yoga. OK. But I would never, I've just been approached so many times of people being like, we should get certified. And I'm like, for what, bro? I don't want to teach nobody.

11:51I just want to go in and do my own thing. Like, I just love it. Camping. Like, I love camping. I love being in nature. I love horses. I love volunteering at farms and just like helping with animals. I love, and you could argue that I don't get money back from it, but what I get back from it is priceless. Like, it's the peace I get back from everything that I just listed. The happiness I get back from everything I just listed, I can't even begin to describe the way that it shifts my sadness over or any sadness that I might be dealing with to the side. It makes me hella present, which I love to.

12:27Surfing, I fucking love. Don't get nothing from it. If anything, I get bruises. But I love it. I love it so much. And those are all things that I explored. Like, then honestly, I like to throw myself into things that scare me because it just makes me feel more powerful and makes me feel like I'm getting stronger. And so doing those things despite the fear and despite there not being some monetary exchange is like key because it's just happy. So for you, how do you still keep that? How do you maintain that? Like, I'm going to do the thing that scares me. Because once you have some success, it's kind of there's a lot of forces trying to push you to just do the same thing that the same thing you've done before, the safer thing.

13:08Right. To like stay in your lane. And you seem to really not do that. You're like, I want to keep growing and challenging myself and doing this scary thing. I'm more scared of fear than I am of judgment. So that's where I find my motivation, because I'm more scared of keeping myself up at night with my own fears than I am with other people's thoughts. And honestly, I owe a lot to my parents too because it's not something that I had to make a massive effort to cultivate in myself because I was exposed to it young. Because I wanted to cut up curtains and make a dress. And if I wanted to go to school dressed that way, my mom would let me.

13:44I'm not saying they weren't like hippies and let me do everything. But in terms of like creativity, if I wanted to shave my head and dye my shit pink, I'd be allowed. If I wanted to go to school and wear my brother's clothes all week, I'd be allowed. it wasn't a question of what will they say and everyone goes through bullying but I wasn't consoled by someone or by people or by family saying well maybe if you wore this or maybe if we bought you the cool thing or maybe if like you know in a way of trying to conform I was more so consoled and be yourself you know despite whatever they say and I know a lot of people don't have that I know a lot of people have parents that are very highly critical and want them to like you You know, my mom dealt with a lot, too, because I know especially Latina moms, like people would criticize her and be like, that's what you're letting your daughter wear.

14:28That's what you're letting your daughter do. It was beautiful because the judgments she got could have projected them on me and she didn't. And I think that's something that I've been able to, like, hold on to. And it's blossomed more in my adulthood now. Why do you think your parents were so open to that and so supportive of you challenging the norms? I don't know. Maybe some of it is because they're immigrants. And so we were already against it. we were already outsiders anyway, you know? So maybe it was just an extension of that. But yeah, there was like, there was kids in my school that had Adidas and I was like, God damn.

15:05And I would get made fun of for the four-stripe shoe from Walmart. And it was just normal. And when I'd come home and be like, they're making fun of me, my dad would be like, the four-stripe shoe does exactly what the three-stripe shoe does. He'll be fine. So that kind of sticks with you too. But I think that had a role, that played a role. the fact that we were already outsiders. I've heard you talk about how one of the markers of success for you is that you were able to retire your parents. Tell me about that feeling. And also then, more broadly, what does success look like for you? It was funny because I was practicing my TED Talk in front of my nephew.

15:35And when I said that part, he was like, I thought grandma and grandpa were already retired when you started doing it. And I was like, listen. And I had to explain it because they kept cleaning houses. Like my dad stopped his job at the company he was at, but they would still clean houses and they would still hustle all over Toronto. And then at one point I was going on tour and I was like, I need y 'all to stop, please. Like it's, I just need y 'all to stop. I need y 'all to chill. I need y 'all to, so then that's why I say officially to make sure it's clear because my nephew put his little hand up and was like, actually Tia.

16:03Success looks like my family never worrying. Success looks like joy. Success looks like paying it forward. Success looks like contributing to my community. Success looks like never going backwards. Success looks like being happy in my body. I don't know, happy is so fleeting, but at peace in my body, comfortable in my body, comfortable with what I'm doing, but simultaneously challenging the comfort zone because I want growth. So almost success is finding balance and intersection between outward, outside accolades and internal peace. Yeah, and where do you think you are in the process of finding that?

16:46sometimes some days i feel close and some days i feel far but that's human you know it's just waves so i think i'm getting closer i hope i'm getting closer i feel like i'm like the fucking stock market you know if you're looking at it close it looks so fucking turbulent but if you step back and i'm like well actually at least it's an upward trend you know you know what i'm saying that's what i feel like and i feel like you gotta count wins and you gotta count progress even when it doesn't look like it in the micro, in the macro, it's definitely been progress. I've never heard anyone else compare their internal emotional life to the Dow Jones, but I love it.

17:23We will be right back in just a moment with more from Jesse. But first, we've got a few podcast ads. Don't go anywhere.

17:42I gave you write or die and you gave me games, love figures I'm the one crying cause you just won't change, love figures I gave it all and you gave me shit, love figures, yeah I wish I could do exactly what you did. Wish I could hurt you back. What you just heard was a clip from Jesse Reyes' Figures. Jesse is here with us today to talk about pain, heartbreak, and how creativity and art can help you to heal while transforming those feelings into something new. You've written a lot of love songs. Written a lot of songs about pain and heartbreak. Has writing those songs changed, or how has writing those songs changed the way that you think about love in your life now?

18:35I don't know how people feel better. I'd never feel better after I fucking leave. The only thing that I'm like, okay, cool, is something came of it. But it's a logistical perspective to be like, okay, cool, I was crying, now something's here. But I'm still crying. It's not like I feel better. I feel better logistically. It's not something... You know what's nice is like on stage, that feels cathartic. But it feels cathartic not so much because something released and then I can step back and look. It feels cathartic because in the moment on stage I'm forced to be as present as possible. So that presence is what makes me feel better as opposed to like the release of the song.

19:17You know, I think something I've had to really learn, which I think is maybe more like culturally like coded to men to like do, is to not be able to like just hear pain, but to have to be like, oh, here's a solution. Here's how I can fix it. And like the thing that I've learned a lot is that if you want to actually make someone feel better, like coming up with a bunch of solutions almost always makes them feel worse unless they're asking for it. But if you just say like, yeah, I hear you. Being heard can really help someone. And I feel like that's one of the beautiful things about music, right?

19:48Is like people who don't know you or will never meet you in person can feel heard and held and seen by your music. That's sweet. that's a way of giving that out so even though it doesn't make you feel better yeah with the pain at least at least there's a purpose to it maybe see so gratitude tears like this is empathy tears because yeah it makes it um mean more that it served a better purpose than just like emotional vomit like it served for holding space for someone makes me emotional i've heard you say in some interviews about how like when you're going through hard times one of the hard things about sharing that is that people don't want to hear that someone who's rich and successful has problems.

20:30There's so much truth to that, but it also seems like that's like a hard prison to be in, to be like, I have to live out the success and not have like a hard time to. I mean, you're a human. How do you balance the desire to, you know, not complain and to be grateful with also the like real suffering that you sometimes have to go through? I don't talk about it. I sing about it. And I don't know if it's the healthiest thing to do, but that's how I deal. But God forbid I'm in a fucking emotional place with someone because it's like getting fucking a pound of molasses through the thinnest straw. But if you give me a pen or if you give me a microphone, all of a sudden the floodgates have opened.

21:13It hasn't proven to be the most healthy, though, in relationships. So I'm learning to be more communicative as a civilian and not as an artist. There's a saying that people say in comedy a lot. That's like a kind of a mantra or like a foundational principle of comedy is that comedy is tragedy plus time. It's interesting because it seems like, you know, breakup songs are like tragedy minus time. it's like let's get right into it right if it's too much time then it doesn't feel acute anymore but that's also raw that's very raw and painful sometimes too someone said that to me they were like are you scared that if you heal you won't write any more like great songs because so many of my songs are sad and i was like if that was the case like i've been trying to drop my demons for years i've been trying to clean out my skeleton like the skeletons from my closet for years and i've come to realize that it's just there's no fucking finish line but a coffin you know but the dirt there's no finish line 60 year olds are making mistakes seven year olds are making mistakes there's no finish line it's just so funny I remember being asked that question and some people being concerned about I'm like if I could be healthy full stop if I could be like if I could just find that if I could I would and these people are like some people have asked me be like yeah are you scared I'm like I'd the way I'd run to the fucking make it easy button and be like, fuck the songs.

22:37I've done them. I've done it. I've done it. I've done the albums. I don't need to write any more sad songs. Fuck it. I just want peace. I would click the button immediately. It's crazy to me that people even think about that as me being concerned, like you purposely sabotage. Someone asked me, do you think you ever purposely sabotage relationships? I said, what? You think I would put myself through that? On purpose? These nuts. Never, never, ever. I wish. So no, it doesn't. I could still write about heartbreak that I went through when I was 16 if I sit there and think about it long enough. And I don't know if that's a skill or a curse, but it happens.

23:15Like there's still little, there are little bottles of memories that I might open it up and it might evaporate a little bit, but the liquid's still there. The potency's still there. I'm glad to hear you say that because I think that one of the like dangerous myths that people sometimes believe for artists, right, is that like you can't be like healthy or sober or stable and still make good art. Right. Like people think that art comes from suffering, but it feels like they're kind of missing a big piece of life, which is that like you can be healthy and stable and sober and you'll still experience suffering.

23:46That's part of life. Part of life. But you can transform it into something else. Absolutely. Because it's part of the reason I like to write is like because it feels like I could just let it out and not get interrupted, you know, and it's a very honest reflection. Sometimes a sheet of paper can hold more truth in a mirror because you're just able to like fully exhale. But with a person, you can't. With a person, there's pauses and moments and back and forth and holding space for both. And it's beautiful. It's a dance. It's a relationship. Not the best at that. So I'm taking steps and strides and like learning to be better at that.

24:20And not just in like a romantic, like I'm talking about platonic, I'm talking about friendships. I'm just holding space in relationships whenever emotions come up and not running. If someone is trying to do this, right, like whether it's writing a song or making music or anything creative, they're trying to get that vulnerable, like that flow where it's just coming out of them and they're not self-conscious and they're not thinking about it like you described. Do you have any recommendations or tips or tricks for how they can get into that space where they're not judging themselves or thinking about it and they're just putting it out?

24:52They're just getting the raw material out to make the art? Don't do it in front of strangers. Try to do it by yourself first to the point that you feel comfortable. And then if you're in a world that requires collaboration, because sometimes I guess it's irrelevant if you're in a world that, like if you want to be a writer and you're looking to be more vulnerable. then I think the only practice is to like write and don't stop writing and don't be scared of the shitty pieces because you have to make shitty pieces in order to get to the good ones unless you're even Galileo I'm sure had like you know pieces that he wasn't the proudest of so you just have to you have to get through the mud to get to the fowler so do that don't be scared of the shitty pieces because you know you're just one step closer to the good one that's a really fun idea too is thinking of like Galileo's demos like but this theory isn't really fully fleshed out yet I'm just tossing this out there, but it gets him closer to the actual discoveries.

25:45Yeah. So that. And then the idea of not doing it with strangers is because the second you feel guarded, you're fucked. I've been in sessions like that. Like when as soon as someone's energy in the room feels just a little judgmental, I'm like, it's not going to work here. You just need space to be yourself. And if you feel judged at all, it's not going to work. And that includes judged on your own, like by yourself, but also by someone else. Like, God forbid that happens. Just leave the room and do it by yourself and exit or just, you know. I don't know, something that gives you safety to just exhale and not be concerned about someone else's opinion.

26:17I can't wait to dive into that Rick Rubin book properly because he talks about how as creatives we have this natural energy that just will pop out, this natural faucet that makes. And sometimes when we make because the faucet is fluid and something came without effort, we think it's inherently devoid of value because it wasn't worked for and there wasn't any sweat and blood and tears. But that's not always the case. And it's fucked because you can't even apply that to love. If someone's walking into a relationship and they're traumatized and the love is easy and the love is peaceful, you're going to second guess and you're going to stutter and be concerned because it's peaceful and it shouldn't feel this easy because you've been used to passion and resistance.

27:14And so because there isn't any blood, sweat, and tears, maybe there's part of you that's not going to value it accurately. And it applies to both love and art and life. And sometimes you need to just understand that you've been blessed. And just because something didn't hurt you or pull blood from you doesn't mean that it wasn't made, that it's not great. So I've had to learn that. It's a dance, like I said, because sometimes it's still going to be shit. So you have to learn how to critique yourself objectively. And I think one of the tools in doing that is using time to your benefit. Because sometimes the day of the song will sound great, but give it a bit.

27:53And sometimes the day of the song is going to sound like shit. And then weeks later, all of a sudden you're at the grocery store humming this tune that you thought was lame, but it's sticky and you didn't know it was sticky. you know so I think it's just it's that sometimes six months later you miss somebody that you didn't think you'd ever miss so it's that it's time maybe just give yourself time isn't that such a shitty answer I hate when someone's how does this get better just give yourself some time sick yeah love that well I think this is the thing is like often the times the like truth is not actually what we want to hear right like we want to hear that like there is one easy trick that will flip button.

28:31All of a sudden you won't feel pain anymore. Someone's out there. They're listening. They've been listening to your music. They're in it, right? They're feeling it. They're in the midst of the relationship that is broken up. Or they're in that spot you just talked about, where it's six months later and they're realizing they really miss a person they didn't think they were going to miss. That's something you've thought about. You've thought about it artistically. You've lived that experience. What advice do you have for someone who's in that kind of moment of heartbreak and longing? Fail faster.

29:03If it was a union that, you know, I don't know, ended peacefully and you still feel something, say something, you know, you might try to explore it, there might be something there. And if you explore it and shit goes left, then maybe it's life and God telling, you know, you had it right the first time. But wondering is just going to, wondering's the worst, just fail faster. And then once you've really failed and you've really hit rock bottom, then start like mending your wounds and knowing that you're not trying to move backwards. Once you are there where you can wash your hands of it and know you've done everything, my God, use everything in your arsenal because all you're going to do is prolong the suffering if you don't like really use the tools.

29:41And the tools can be like going to the gym and the tools can be investing in a therapist and the tools can be investing in self-help books. The tools can be journaling. The tools can be nature. The tools can be animals. The tools can be diving into work. The tools can be getting proper sleep. The tools can be staying hydrated. The tools can be eating properly and holding, like just looking out for yourself. But all of those things, they're just, they're literally, it's your arsenal. And it's the only thing that's going to get you better because yeah, time could work, but if time passes and you've done nothing to help yourself, you might be stuck and find yourself in the same place a year later.

30:18You know? I think that maybe in the public eye, you're, you know, you're known for some of these tough emotions. But you also, you clearly have a really good sense of humor too. You know, you're funny, you enjoy laughter. So I wonder what's the role that humor and that laughter plays in your life and in your creative process too? I love getting laughs in the studio with lines. I love playing songs and looking over and then like in the whip and biz starts cracking up or someone will start cracking up with a punchline and shit just makes me happy. I like South Park. I think it's had an effect on me as a human being in terms of maybe finding certain things that I probably shouldn't find funny and then finding humor in certain narratives that are in certain songs that maybe would be a little dark if not said with a certain sarcastic-ass timbre maybe.

31:08I don't know. Well, Jessie, it's been such a pleasure talking to you and, you know, your music, your art, your life, you've brought so many people a sense of being seen and healing and I hope that you find that same thing for yourself too. Thank you. Me too. I hope I find it too. Thank you.

31:27That is it for today's episode of How to Be a Better Human. Thank you so much to today's guest, Jessie Reyes. Her latest album is called Yesi, and it is so, so, so good. I am your host, Chris Duffy, and you can find out more about me and sign up for my weekly newsletter at chrisduffycomedy.com. How to Be a Better Human is brought to you on the TED side by Daniela Balarezzo, Alejandra Salazar, Whitney Pennington Rogers, and Ban Ban Chang, who are not here to make friends. Every episode of our show is professionally fact-checked. This episode was fact-checked by Julia Dickerson and Mateus Salas, who made sure that nothing in this episode was a fraud.

32:01On the PRX side, our show is put together by a team that never just say figures, and instead, they give me promises that last forever. Morgan Flannery, Norgil, and Jocelyn Gonzalez. And of course, thanks to you for listening to our show and making this all possible. If you are listening on Apple, please leave us a five-star rating and a positive review. And if you're listening on the Spotify app, answer the discussion question that we've put up there. We would love to hear your thoughts. We will be back next week with even more episodes of How to Be a Better Human. Thanks again for listening.