How play is the secret to success at work (w/ Maxwell Pearce)

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1:56lives. I don't really know anyone who is against play. It's a pretty easy thing to be for. There isn't like a big band-aid lobby pushing for more people to get outside and skin their knees so they can make profits on the bandages. But even though most of us think play is a good thing, I don't think many of us realize just how big a difference play can make in our lives in terms of helping us to make connections with other people, helping us to change how we feel in our day-to-day, and the way that we handle the things that get thrown at us that are unexpected and maybe even unpleasant. Today's guest, Maxwell Pierce, is one of the people who I met at Play at TED.

2:33He was giving a talk. And Maxwell has achieved huge success in two of the biggest fields where we think about play, sports and art. But what impresses me most about Maxwell isn't just his incredible, very challenging accomplishments. It's the way that he thinks about what a regular person can get from play? How can we experiment with bending the rules? How can we see what happens when we define success just a little bit outside of the box? And how can we become more resilient by having fun? Maxwell has so much to offer, even if, like me, you are so, so, so very far from ever becoming a professional athlete.

3:08Here's a clip from Maxwell's talk. I am a member of the Harlem Globetrotters, a legendary exhibition basketball team that is credited for integrating the NBA, popularizing new moves like the alley-oop, and creating so many others. These are the new moves that have advanced the game, but they've also given joy to the people that come and watch us perform. And that right there is precisely how we have lasted for 100 years while also earning a spot in the Hall of Fame. Getting to this point in my career certainly was not a straight line. I've always struggled with high-level sports coaching. There's a certain culture that has excessive cursing, yelling, and also a hyper-seriousness that can really stunt your growth.

3:57Although we were playing sports, ironically, we were coached not to be very playful. I learned that there was a seriousness in respecting the quality of the game. Whether it was basketball, football, baseball, or cross-country, all of my coaches emphasized honoring and respecting the essence of their sport. And that meant taking every drill and every exercise seriously and not doing anything that will challenge the traditional way of doing things. This is exactly what led my high school coach to telling me to stop trying to dunk the basketball. But ironically, it was my playfulness that got me to this point in my career.

4:42We're going to play around a lot more with Maxwell right after this break.

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6:22Get connectivity packages built for your business with savings that keep your budget in check. And with fast, reliable internet and 100 % U.S.-based customer support, you'll stay connected and ready to bring your vision to life. Learn more at spectrum.com slash business. Restrictions apply. Service is not available in all areas. On today's episode, we're talking about play and creativity with Maxwell Pierce. What's going on, everybody? My name is Maxwell Pierce. I am an artist and also a member of the Harlem Globetrotters. Okay, so we have a lot of listeners who are based in the U.S., but we also have a lot of listeners around the world.

7:00and for people who have never heard of the Harlem Globetrotters before, can you describe what the Globetrotters are? Oh man, the Harlem Globetrotters, they are an exhibition basketball team that is very well known for their creativity on the court. A lot of what we do separates ourselves from a normal basketball game because of how we interact with the fans. So sometimes we'll call people out to dance on the court, with us. We throw water on each other, confetti, all types of stuff like that, that really interact with the people that come out to see us. So in that way, it makes us very unique.

7:42I also think about Globetrotters as being uniquely talented at doing tricks and amazing, unbelievable dunks and being able to spin the ball on a finger or all these things that kind of bring a real sense of wonder and delight to the game of basketball. Not that you don't also take the game very seriously, but there's all these things that you would never expect that are really fun about the way the Globetrotters play. When I think of a Globetrotter game, it's like the perfect blend of most like basketball cinema mixed with a little bit of comedy, mixed with like what you see is truly what you get.

8:19Like nobody's secretly jumping off of a like an invisible trampoline to do these dunks. Like everybody is really doing these dunks and making these shots. There's no magnet that's in the ball. That stuff is all real. And then for people who haven't already seen your artwork, can you describe your artwork so they can get a sense of what your artwork looks like? Yeah, my art is also a mixture. It's a mixture of materials that have shared experiences with me as the user of those materials. So sometimes they're basketballs or, you know, Shoelaces, footballs, baseballs, pretty much any kind of sports equipment that I have used in my journey as an athlete.

9:04But when I say shared experiences, the emotions that I have experienced while using them are also shared, you know, from their point of view as an inanimate object. But nevertheless, you know, they have their own history of how many times the ball was bounced or that ball was bounced, how many different people it was passed to, how many countries that basketball may have traveled to, how many times it went through the basket, things like that. Those are all the things I try to consider when I'm incorporating those materials. Well, what about the subject matter? What are the things that you're using those materials to describe and to visually represent?

9:42Yeah, the subject matter can really vary. A lot of times I'll try to highlight a particular moment in history that was important, whether it was to me or to the betterment of a specific group of people. So like one of the ways in which I try to keep my family's history is through creating artwork around it so that, you know, when the generations after me look at it, they can know the story of that person who is being highlighted within that work. If I was going to describe how it looks to me, I would say there are very beautiful, realistic representations of people or of scenes. And then when you get closer, you see that it's not just an oil painting.

10:25It's actually a mixed media artwork. And there's so many incredible details in the way that a shoelace or a net or a piece of cloth or a piece of rubber can be transformed. There's a lot of layers to the artwork. I mean, literally, but also figuratively in the sense that it looks different when you look at it close and when you look at it far away, which the viewer just has this natural reaction to say, I'm so amazed. And every time I look at it, I see something new. Yeah, I appreciate you saying that. I also think like going back to the element of trying to incorporate the history behind these materials, it really is why I prefer used materials.

11:04If it's brand new, there's not much of a history behind its usage. But it's a way, particularly with the shoelaces, it's a way for me to have a little bit more of a universal representation. I have a lot of ideas about connections between the two, but I'm curious to hear your take. What do you see as the connections between your work as an artist and your work as a Globetrotter? The play is kind of like the glue between both of those worlds for me. the play or the playful mindset allows me to view those materials as something more than what we put in a basket or what we, you know, score in the end zone.

11:43Like it's just something way more than that. You have excelled at the very highest levels in two extremely difficult fields, right? Like no one would say that working as a contemporary artist or working as a professional athlete, no one would say that those are easy. And so there, you have to be very serious to get to the the level that you've gotten to, but also there's a real lightness and play to you as a person and to the work that you do in both of those fields. So I would love for you to talk more about that relationship. Yeah. Like I think what's interesting is so much of my like athletic experience has been, you could say, weighed down with a certain seriousness.

12:23And once I was able to view play as more of a tool rather than the antithesis of seriousness, then I think it was a lot easier for me to combine them. The healthiest balance that you can have is keeping a certain level of seriousness, but combined with play. I think if it's all play, sometimes you can lose sight of the direction. but you know if you maintain a certain level of seriousness more so in being serious about achieving like a certain outcome or serious about kind of expanding your boundaries then i think that balance can really be helpful for any you know field that you're in it doesn't have to be sports or art but i feel like this is this is the the magic part right it's the like where is that relationship because one way to look at play, right, is like, I'm working on this artwork.

13:24It's not fun anymore. I'm going to stop. I'm not having fun. It's not feeling like play anymore. So I'm going to stop. And I think that comes from like sometimes like being too on the play side where like it should it should be fun all the way through and not pursuing something all the way through the part where it feels hard and feels like work. And I know that's not how you work. So how do you keep the play and how do you also like follow through? That's a good question. I think there are certain, there are different forms of play, at least in my, from my perspective in this, I'm very playful with the materials that I use both physically, but also conceptually.

14:01Like I view basketballs as something more than, you know, something that you dribble and I put it on the canvas. When I get to a creative block, my, I guess my focus on what I'm playing with shifts. So I'm not playing with the materials as much as I'm playing with the perspective or with my approach on how I can use those materials. And I think being a little bit more playful and loose with your approach allows you to get around or through a lot of those creative blocks that you have. Because sometimes if you're so married to one particular approach and you're not willing to be open enough or playful enough to see it in a different way, then you're just going to continue to be standing behind this wall, you know, until you just decide to walk away from it.

14:53But I think the play element allows you to just look at it different. I think that's such a great answer. It also makes me think in order for you to do the playful parts when you're playing basketball or when you're working as an athlete, right? You, again, for people who aren't super familiar, and I know many people who are listening to this are already going to be really familiar with your work. But if you're not, one of the things that Maxwell is famous for is these incredible videos of trick dunks and shots with the basketball that just seem like they can't be believed, right? Like a dog passes it to you or you're dunking a basketball while also catching a baseball.

15:32Now, those are obviously playful. Those are so fun. They're also incredible. But the part that you don't see in the video, I imagine, is you have to do a lot of exercise. You have to do a lot of training. You have to do a lot of physical work to be able to jump that high in the air and to be that coordinated. And there's not a lot of play of like going to the gym, at least for me. Maybe there is for you. Can you talk about that part of it? That's a really interesting point because I think, especially when it comes to those very specific actions, like dunking a baseball. I mean, dunking a basketball and catching a baseball is a very niche action.

16:11Yeah, that's about as niche an action as it could possibly get. I don't know if it gets any more niche than that. But my point is that it requires a very niche way of, you know, training your body. Like, you literally have to train your body to get comfortable with the duality of that motion. Like, because both of those things are happening simultaneously. It's not really one after the other. Like if I only focus on getting my arm above the rim to dunk the ball, by the time I'm on the way down, if I haven't already raised my arm with the glove to cast the ball, I'm going to miss the baseball and vice versa.

16:52So as it relates to the exercise part, viewing the like exercises in a way that is a little bit more like open and incorporating of what the end goal that I have in mind is, it's a little bit easier to change up, you know, my approach in the gym as far as like training to jump a little higher. I'm not just I'm not trying to get repetitions of just dunking the basketball. I'm trying to get repetitions where I'm focusing on like separating the intention of what I do with my right arm versus what I do with my left arm, but at the same time. So I think that seeps into the exercise realm all the same in that like you really have to find new innovative ways to train your body and also your mind.

17:47Like it is very much a mental task to do something like that as it is a physical one. We're going to be right back after this quick break.

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20:24And we are back. When a Globetrotter makes a mistake, they can have it be overlooked because of how they playfully embrace its direction. They recognize that something went wrong, but they actually welcome the unfamiliarity that comes with that new position. You and I met at this event, Play at TED, and you were giving a talk and a bunch of other people were giving talks. And so there's a day before where there's rehearsals. Yep. And then there's the day of the event. It's only 48 hours. And I was really struck by the fact that you came in and you had this incredible talk. From the start, it was a really great talk.

21:04You'd worked on it already a lot by the time I saw it. But you were really struggling to remember the talk off book, right? Because you're not allowed to have notes when you give a TED talk. And so in your rehearsal, you had to stop a bunch of times. You were clearly unhappy with the way you were delivering it because you hadn't memorized it 100 % fully. And I was really struck by how you were positive and supportive to all the other people. You know, you felt like you didn't at all feel like you were bringing people down or taking it out on other people or taking it out on yourself. But I also saw this real like determination in you where you said, like, I'm going to go and I'm going to work on this.

21:41And then you came back the next day and you absolutely nailed it. Right. No one would have ever known that there had been a rehearsal where it was kind of rough. so very few people in the world are going to be globetrotters even fewer probably are going to be professional artists but many people are going to have an experience where you're trying to do something that is big and intimidating and new and different for you and it's not going very well you had a lot of grace for yourself and you were like i'm going to do this and it's going to be fun and then it worked so can you talk to talk to me about how you how you approach things like that Yeah, I appreciate that observation.

22:17I think my experiences with being playful have also relieved the weight of pressure in a lot of ways. I think that's one of the beauties of play is like if you take things too seriously, I feel like that's when you get into moments where you're almost in your own way because the pressure that you put on yourself is becoming an additional obstacle to what you're already trying to master. so I feel like dunk contests are the perfect analogy for this because in dunk contests you do have more than one attempt to complete the dunk but most of the time if you're not on that day if you're not capable of doing that dunk you could try it nine times it's not going to make a difference.

23:16So really, you know, like achieving the dunk happens in the work before the actual contest. And so I think that has taught me that like play and keeping a certain level of like openness has allowed me to not put a ton of pressure on myself. I am definitely hard on myself, But I am not as hard as I used to be on myself because I know that I am somebody that does not do well under any added pressure, you know, internally. Like, I certainly still do feel pressure, but not as much as I used to because I know that as long as I remain, you know, open and playful, I can kind of pivot in different ways.

24:07when like things go wrong especially for myself in my past I have let the pressure and the reminder like the self-reminder that oh no things are going wrong like that has become like a distraction for me and one of the ways that I am able to detach from that is just by being playful. So like, I feel like playful improvisation is easily the biggest lesson that I've learned from being a globetrotter, more so in the like physical sense. So for example, let's say, you know, like you, most of our lives we go through from our visual perspective, we go through it on our own two feet. But what if one day you accidentally tripped and you fell and now you are on the floor.

25:03You have a totally different vantage point of what you have been observing and looking at for the last however long. I think we should value those moments more because it's a natural opportunity to view things from a very different perspective. and that is what I deem as being playful. Whenever those accidents happen, it's like, whoa, I'm in a new space right now. I don't normally look at these things from this perspective, but let me embrace this. And I think that's what allows people to playfully improvise because you can actively scan what's around you and interpret what's around you rather than panicking and just like glossing over, you know, what you're seeing.

26:00Speaking of that, I, something I learned from you that I had never known before is that dunking, like the art of dunking a basketball was actually for many years, um, looked down upon. It was, it was like a, uh, it was actually banned in NCAA, um, in college basketball is banned. You were not allowed to dunk the basketball. And that's one of the things that people like me who are not the most avid sports fans, right? Like that's our favorite part of the game. That's what we watch basketball for. For so many years, All-Star Weekend's, you know, most beloved event was the duck contest. And at one point, you know, it was something that was like so ridiculously frowned upon in the game of basketball because two points is two points.

26:46So why are you dunking when you could just lay it up? It's all worth the same. But if it wasn't, you know, for those people remaining playful and continuing to advance how we dunk the ball, we wouldn't have that in the game. So I think that's just one of the most prominent examples in my life of how playfulness can really, really expand the boundaries of what It makes me think about how a lot of times when we're doing things that are supposed to be fun, we can get really stuck in the way that it's supposed to be and in the rules and in how things are supposed to be done. I mean, with art or music or sports or anything, it's very easy to lose sight of the fact that this is supposed to be joyful.

27:41This is supposed to be fun. This is supposed to be playful. And to instead kind of make it a very serious, rules-based, right or wrong scenario. Yeah, I think like the pressure that we put on ourselves to, you know, a lot of people are just perfectionists. And I think it's great to strive to be as great as you can. But I think we lose sight of remaining authentic. like a lot of people lose our authenticity in trying to be like pristine and perfect and so to your point like approaching a lot of you know what we do with the acceptance that it's not going to go as perfectly as planned that's what makes everything relatable that's what makes, I think that's what draws people in more than if something was perfectly delivered because who is doing anything perfectly?

28:44The things that you do that you have had such success at, there's play to them, but as you've talked about, there's also a lot of discipline. There's also a lot of skill to them. How often do you feel like people underestimate you or don't see the real effort and skill that you've developed until you have to win them over or something like that? All the time. I think one of the struggles in living or in trying to live in these two worlds that I'm in, which is the sports realm, but also the art realm, is that, yes, I have absolutely leveraged one to uplift the other. But a lot of times when I step into one space and it's exclusively an art space, for example, I've gotten a ton of interactions from people that are like, oh, so did the Globetrotters get you here?

29:41I'm assuming you're here because you're a Globetrotter, not more so because of the time and the work that you put into your artwork. It is frustrating because I want my work to be recognized for the art that it is rather than, you know, for the profile that I have, particularly on the sports realm. But at the same time, part of my mission, I guess, or like my North Star in life is to bridge this gap in society where so many of our expectations are placed on athletes to be one dimensional. like just like everybody else we everybody is multi-dimensional the only difference is that some people just are afforded the opportunity to discover their other dimensions and some people just never got a chance to discover those and so as an athlete who was afforded the exposure and the opportunity to you know discover my other passions and interests I want to make that crystal clear that athletes are not just people that put the ball in the basket.

30:53So it's a very interesting dance that I'm constantly doing. I certainly can think of, you know, the people who are most coming to mind are people who are kind of like famous actors who then say like, actually, I'm also a musician. And then you listen to their music and it's very bad. Or like, actually, I'm also an artist. And you look at their art and you're like, well, you're mostly an actor. And I think something that's different for you, right is i would challenge anyone to look at your artwork and not say this person is an incredibly talented unique artist like this is is not you being a dilettante and also it has a lot of deep thought and consideration and meaning behind it definitely and and i'm still learning it like the one thing that i can confidently say is that although i have been creating artwork since probably like the third grade or something like that.

31:49Showing in a professional manner and selling work in a professional manner is still on the newer side to me. Like I've only been operating in that way as an artist for probably the last four to five years, as opposed to creating for the last 25, 20 to 25 years. So I'm still learning, you know, like what is acceptable in those realms, what is not, and then also what are some rules that I can play with. Part of anybody's process in getting a full concept of the landscape that they live in is identifying what boundaries are not to be crossed and what boundaries are meant to be expanded for the betterment of whatever it is, you know, that thing that you're doing.

32:44Like, obviously, you don't want to compromise the well-being of anybody or any space, but there certainly are boundaries, more so social boundaries, that we may be able to experiment with for the betterment of everybody. One thing that it makes me think about is how a lot of your art is depicting Black people in a really beautiful way with dignity, with history, with nuance. and obviously many depictions in popular culture of black people do not view them in multidimensional ways and instead are very one-dimensional. So can you talk about that piece of this as well? That's a great segue into kind of the point that I always try to make, which is that the stereotype that places athletes or pigeonholes athletes into being one-dimensional is exponentially higher for Black athletes.

33:36And that is because of the incorporation of the fact that they are Black. So if you compare, you know, how Black athletes are considered and afforded space to do other things in comparison to their non-Black counterparts, it is very different. Particularly in the WNBA, you see a lot of that because they live in, I think, the most complex social intersection because the W is predominantly full of black and brown women, many of which who are LGBTQ plus. So you have the intersections of misogyny, homophobia, transphobia, racism, all of those things that are socially just like the floodgates are wide open, you know, and make them subject to that because of the platform that we can watch them on.

34:36So, you know, like much of my work really stands and puts a spotlight on Black women in particular, because I definitely can appreciate how, although they sit at the forefront of a lot of the fights against these different forms of oppression, At the same time, they're also like at the dead center of, you know, like a lot of people's targets or a lot of systems targets. And so one of the ways in which I started kind of paying that back was by honoring the black women that I come from. So like, you know, this is my grandma. Both of these pieces are my grandmother here. And for the listeners, Maxwell, you're pointing at the art behind you.

35:24And it's just my way of giving her her flowers and her credit. and letting her know that I appreciate the sacrifices that she has made. She's 94, so she has lived through several different versions of this country and this world. She lived through Jim Crow, segregation, so many different things. And she's a huge part of where I am and who I am today. My grandmother's name is Lovely Hill. She, like I said before, she's 94. She still walks to the bar and everything. She was a model in the early 50s and late 40s. She was one of the first black models for Pepsi, Clairol, some other publications. She modeled the cover for Jet Magazine twice.

36:09And then she retired from modeling and she went into education. And at the time of this retirement, maybe it was like 1957 or something like that. This was around the time where sterilization of black women was rampant, particularly in the United States. So one day she sets a doctor's appointment and the doctor basically tells her that her ovaries were bad and that they needed to be removed. So she got on the schedule for their removal procedure. And a few days before that procedure happened, Ebony Magazine called and asked if she would come out of retirement to shoot a new cover for hats. So she skipped the procedure to have her ovaries removed.

36:53she shot the cover with Ebony Magazine and shortly after that she got pregnant with my mom and so that Ebony Magazine cover along with her decision to get back into modeling literally saved my mom's life and my life and my siblings lives and everybody after that you know stories like that can really shape the intention and the direction of the work that people create And in my scenario, that is absolutely reason number one why I have decided to recreate her entire modeling portfolio. Wow. It's such a powerful story. And then for you to be able to turn that into not only, you know, the true beautiful story of your family, but also into the beautiful artwork.

37:43To me, that is one of the reasons why not just the representation you've made of your grandmother, but also the way that you make it is so powerful because it is not just an image of her, not just a recreation and an honoring of what she did. But then you look closely and it's she is made up of these pieces that don't define her, but are a part of her. But in fairness to that doctor, I just want to be clear in that I can't definitively say what that doctor's intentions were. I just know what was a common practice in the U.S. in that time as it relates to black women. So I just want to make sure that I'm fair to that doctor because that may not have been the case.

38:28But I do know that for a fact that was a very common practice. Separately, the relationship between the materials and my grandmother has another layer to it that I did not explain in the initial story. So her first Jet Magazine cover was in 1955. And the cover said, Lovely Hill, New York beauty models ideal hats for ladies who like to globetrot. Oh, that's so cool. And that was literally written in 1955. And so in her educational career, she worked for the American Federation of Teachers, and that required her to travel all across the world. So she was a globetrotter in her own right, for sure.

39:15And one of my favorite memories of my childhood is her writing these postcards to my siblings and I from the destinations that she would travel to. This is before we could travel. So, you know, she would write a postcard from somewhere, you know, in Europe or in Africa and be like, this is where I am. This is what it's like here. This is what I'm experiencing. So, you know, in a way, she really was prepping me to, you know, become a Globetrotter. It's just a really cohesive way for me to tell her story while also telling my story, while also explaining the relationship within the two of us and how the decisions that our elders make have an impact on us.

40:01I think the connection between dehumanization and reclaiming dignity and joy and identity feels like such a powerful theme in the stories that you're telling and in your artwork and in the history here. Absolutely. And I think that's one of the things that I try to intentionally lead with when I'm creating work that doesn't have to do with my grandmother. Like my grandmother's collection is just, it's one collection, but it's certainly not the extent of the kind of subject matter that I'm focusing on. I think the first collection that I actually exhibited highlighted professional athletes that use their platform to speak out against social and racial injustice.

40:53And so the work that they do, although most of them, I don't think any of them were like visual artists per se, but like people like Muhammad Ali or like Serena Williams or Althea Gibson, they were very vocal with their platforms. and a lot of their platform, most of their platforms were gained through their athletic excellence and their ability to transform that to be a power for the betterment of people that are beyond the sports realm is definitely something that I aspire. It's an effect that I aspire to have in my practice as an artist as well. Can you give us, let's say, three tips for how you can explore your creativity, explore your play, find some of these venues of self-expression that you have found so much meaning and success in?

41:51What are three ways that the people listening can try and kind of put this into place in their own life? Yeah. So I think first, identifying the things in your life that you stay away from, but for a bad reason. For not a valid reason. So like, you know, this is a poor example, but like there are, when I was younger, people would rave about these shows that they were watching. And I would instantly be like, oh, no, I'm not, I'm not going to watch that because everybody else is already doing that. And I think that's a silly reason to not watch the show. So if you can identify what those things are that you've been consciously avoiding for silly reasons, those are the things that I think you should attack first.

42:37And you'll be surprised to find out whatever it is that you like about it or just to confirm that I actually didn't like it. But I think more often than not, when I've spent time in those kinds of things that I initially try to stay away from, I understood why a lot of people love this. And I think that's also part of what builds passion is like it's a shared appreciation. there's a good amount of people that, you know, appreciate all of these different avenues like art or music or acting or whatever it is. So I think if you can find something that also has a community that can help to encourage, you know, your passion and your interest, I think that's, that's really helpful as a first step.

43:30Secondly, I also think that people should reevaluate what they already are interested in, just, again, from a different perspective. The first 25 years of my life, I did look at basketball as pretty much something that I just dribbled and shot in a basket. You know, I always saw it as a tool to open doors, but from a physical perspective, I only saw it as something that, you know, you could play basketball with. It wasn't until maybe five years ago that I was like, let me cut one of these up and put it on a canvas and see what that's like. And that was life changing. And it was just it was mind boggling to me because here I was thinking that, like, I knew everything that there was to know about using a basketball.

44:19And it's like, I'm wrong. I was wrong. And all I had to do was just reevaluate how I looked at this thing that I had already known for 25 years. So I think everybody should try to take that approach, which is, by the way, a playful and open approach to what it is that they already know. So those are probably my two biggest pieces of advice. Maxwell Pierce, it has been such a pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much for making the time and for being on the show. Likewise, Chris. Thanks, man. Appreciate it. That is it for today's episode of How to Be a Better Human. Thank you so much for listening.

44:57Thank you to Maxwell Pierce. If you want to learn more about how to invite more play into your life, TED has an entire site dedicated to ideas, practical tips, and more that can help you do that. You can learn more by visiting TED.com slash play. Again, thank you to Maxwell Pierce. You can find his art and his basketball videos by following him online at Maxwell Pierce. I am your host, Chris Duffy, and my book, Humor Me, is out now. You can find out about the book and my live show and all of the other things that I do online at ChrisDuffyComedy.com.

45:51they are the art world elite. The top of the top, the most exclusive audio artists in the world. And they're introducing a new gallery show that's just audio. Morgan Flannery, Norgil, Patrick Grant, and the art world director, Jocelyn Gonzalez. Thanks so much to you for listening. You are also part of our team and we are so happy to be playing with you. Please send this episode to someone who you think would enjoy it. We will be back next week with even more how to be a better human. Until then, take care.

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