How to break bad habits (w/ Edith Zimmerman)

0:28You're listening to How to Be a Better Human. sobriety or parenting or figuring out her creative and personal ambitions. It's all very relatable stuff. And this conversation is also part of our newest video series, which means that I got to go meet Edith in person at her house in upstate New York to record this interview. And we also filmed Edith and me running together, discussing what it was like for her to stop drinking and her drawing a hilarious caricature of my face, all of which you can see online at Ted's YouTube channel. I think the video is really a fun and cool compliment because after you listen to this episode, you can see what Edith's art and what her life looked like.

1:07So listen to this, then check out that video. But first, let's get started with Edith. Well, I drew as a kid and then I took a bunch of art classes in college. I did a lot of portraiture. I want to say hyper realistic, but it's just like trying to be regular realistic. Like nothing special. And they were all very careful. I really liked doing portraits with pencil. And there was just a lot of erasing and erasing and just like layering and layering and careful, careful, careful. And it was good. I was pretty good at it. I did like some really good portraits by the time I graduated. I was going to be a double major with English and studio art, but I didn't because I was like, am I going to like draw for a living?

1:46Which actually is sort of like sounds like a joke now, but it was like totally reasonable. So then when I started drawing again more recently, I started with pen because I didn't want to go back to the extremely careful drawing. Like, I hope I don't get it wrong. It's like, I'm going to get it wrong right out of the bat. And that's just like, that's going to be OK. And I did these like really rudimentary stick figures. And like my drawing is still like bad. I mean, you've seen sometimes they come out kind of charming. Sometimes they're just like absurdly bad. And you're just like, oh, sorry, you're like, you're calling yourself an artist.

2:17OK, all right, that's cool. So yeah, that was sort of part of it. It's like, yeah, you just sort of like commit to the bit. But I just started drawing stick figures or like ball heads with like little necks and like circle eyes. And then I just kept doing it and kept doing it and like slowly it evolved. And now I feel like I have a style, but it's like none of it was conscious. It's just sort of like the way it comes out naturally and then plus like how you keep refining it.

2:45We're going to take a quick break, But we will be back with more from Edith in just a moment. Don't go anywhere.

3:01And we are back. We're talking with Edith Zimmerman about sobriety, creativity, and what it takes to create a life where you can be honest, vulnerable, and healthy. Hi, I'm Edith Zimmerman. I'm a writer and artist. I live in upstate New York, and I send out a newsletter called Drawing Links. So one thing that I, when I think about your work, is your work is really honest. And I'm curious, have you always been good at being honest with yourself? Um, no. I mean, that's a tricky question. This is like, you think I'm being really honest, right? Like, there's all these much deeper pockets. I'm like, geez, are we really getting into this?

3:41So in the stuff that you've probably read, like a lot of the comics are pulled from my journal. So it's like I wake up in the morning and I do this journal every day and I do comics about like whatever from the day before stands out to me. And then like weeks later, I'll go back and look at it and publish some of it. Because like for whatever reason, I just like want to share parts of it. Like I still not really sure, but it's like this compulsion and I just want to share it. Because sometimes I'm like, oh, I got something just right or I did. I don't know. Something just worked. but I go through and I like reread my own journal entries and sometimes I'm like oh yeah this is really good or I like this or other times I'm like oh my god I can't this is horrible so it sort of informs how I make journal entries in the future.

4:23It's really interesting because I think that that's a lot of what I want to talk about right is like kind of that compulsion to share. How do you find the line where between like something where you're like I want this to be out there versus something that you don't want to be? Well it feels very important that it be true which I feel, which is like the honesty therefore is like imperative. And sometimes there's stuff that's honest, but it's like ugly. And I'm like, I'm not going to share that. Or like, it doesn't make me look good. It's like, I want it to be real and to kind of come across as the way I experienced it and to be flattering to other people.

4:54Cause like, I'm never, I like really try not to portray anybody in a negative light. Like I'll, I'll kind of like rant privately, but I'll never, I try not to publish anything negative about anybody. So I journal every day too. I have a friend who journals every day and then they destroy what they journaled. Like some, I think they used to like literally burn the pages that they wrote and now they journal electronically and then just delete it. And they're like a huge proponent of this. That's not how I do it. Yeah. Because I want to preserve the things that I'm experiencing, but I sometimes wonder like, am I journaling for me or am I journaling for an audience and who is that audience?

5:31And I wonder how that's changed it for you if you literally are doing it for an audience. Yeah, well, that's kind of like the crux of, well, one issue for me. I mean, so I started this journal. The journaling was just regular writing, and then I was starting a second journal where I was doing just drawings. And eventually the writing and the drawings became like journal comics that I do every day. And every so often I was like, man, these three panels came out in a way that really pleased me. and so I started a private Instagram account just to like my 23 friends that I like manually signed up for it I was like I just want to show you guys like this moment because I think I was like really lonely or something or I was going through sort of a rough whatever like I just wanted to they were just little snippets it would just come out just right anyway so sharing it on Instagram and then that kind of snowballed and eventually I like I was letting anyone who knew me follow me if they requested it.

6:26And then I put all those comics in a newsletter instead of on Instagram and it got recommended places. Like other people were kind of promoting it. And then it started to get like bigger and bigger. I mean, it's not like huge or anything, but it got big enough. And then I was like, I'm going to charge money for it. This will be my job. I'm going to get, like, I'll support myself with my cartoons. Like this is a dream and I just have to live my life and then write these little charming stories about it. And, but like the money stuff didn't really work out the way I thought it was going to because I had this like goal I wanted to hit and then I just like didn't get there in the time I thought I was going to get there and also like I had a certain amount of savings that I was using to get to this place and then it just like wasn't it was really disappointing and like meanwhile like this is my real life like I'm sharing real stories for my life but this like it sort of caught up with me the way I visualize it is like it was kind of it sounds kind of cheesy but it's like the tide like you're kind of running with the water a little bit.

7:22And like, are you being real or are you making stuff up to share with people? Like, are you thinking about what people are going to think when they see this? Or are you really just sharing your private thoughts with yourself and your journal? And it helped to have some distance between the two. But eventually with this sort of first iteration of the newsletter, I found I was sitting down. I had like kind of run out of stories, but like I knew I was supposed to post something in my newsletter because there were people who were paying for it. And it's like, you know, you hear people being like, yeah, it's okay.

7:48It can come out whenever. Like the people who are supporting you. They like, they just want to know they're supporting you. I'm like, yeah, but this is a product I'm creating. Like I told people I was going to send it like X amount of times a week or once a week or whatever. Like I just haven't sent it for two weeks. Like this is a problem anyway. And I'd be sitting down like, okay, I have to write like a charming story about my life that people are going to love. Like they loved the one about the dog. Like that one was cute. Like, so don't write about how you're mad at your husband or don't write about like, like, or don't do it anyway so it just started to like just was difficult and I um refunded everybody I just like kind of shut off the newsletter and I refunded everybody and just like quit kind of and I kept doing the journal I just like didn't publish for two years and then I mean I was just doing it privately for myself and then I restarted it last fall just because I felt like there was some distance and I wanted to do it and I had this whole new like business idea for myself which was that I would not ask people to pay for the newsletter.

8:47I would instead use it as an advertising device for my other realm, like my greeting cards and my art prints. Because I was like, oh, I'm going to take myself seriously as an artist. People will buy my art. Like, that's what I want. I don't want them to subscribe to my stories. I want them to buy my art because I'm an artist now. So the version of the newsletter now is I write the journal stuff. And then two months later I look through it and I publish stuff and and that has seemed like enough of a cushion that I can maintain the integrity of just journaling for myself and kind of silence the voice that's like well what's going to be a good story for your fans and I find myself like writing something it's like kind of like I could never publish this like what's the point of even following this thread it's like well it's important I have to I have to just get this out I have to like just write whatever comes out it seems like there's these threads of like honesty and like creativity and then also vulnerability and like figuring out what the right level of those each is for you especially when something is public because I think that like even when you're describing like I didn't feel like this was right so I stopped doing it entirely I refunded everyone that's kind of to me like being honest with yourself like this is how I'm feeling yeah and this is not sustainable have there been times in your life where you were it was harder for you to be honest with yourself?

10:14The first thing that comes to mind is like, I drank really heavily for a really long time. And I was, I knew it was too much and a problem for me. But I was like, yeah, but like, it's the only thing I like. So I'm not going to like, stop drinking. It's like, even though it's clearly like, ruining my life, it's also the only thing I enjoy doing. So like, what am I supposed to do here? I feel like I maybe I come across as really honest but I think there's been times in my life where there's just like entire situations that I can't even look at and only later can I be like okay eventually I was able to like be honest about them but in the moment they're just like way too big and I don't even know like maybe I'm going through one of them now and I can't not to be like mysterious but it's like sometimes I can't even look at it but anyway so I was like a very I don't know like medium unproblematic drinker for like kind of a long time.

11:08Like for probably like seven years I knew. I was like this is not good but like I can't really handle this right now because I'm just like not equipped. And then like one day I was and then I stopped drinking. But you've also been really public about sobriety and also like about creating a space not just for yourself but for other people to write about sobriety and to talk about it. I write now for I do illustrations for a newsletter about sobriety and I've like published stories about sobriety. I just think like for myself I also don't drink and sometimes I feel like like it's hard to claim sobriety not because I drink or do drugs still but it's like because I didn't have like a dramatic rock-bottom moment like I feel like like I don't drink and I like myself more and there's all sorts of reasons why I am sober now so sometimes I think it's like weird for me to claim it but all of it just to say I think a The big piece for me though was about like honesty.

12:05You don't like the way you feel and you don't like the things that you are doing and you are doing it anyway. Yeah. That was the clarifying moment for me. It was like, what if you just were honest? You don't have to do this. I think everyone has a different relationship to like sobriety and self-control and honesty. What was your relationship with those things? Alcohol is very obviously ruining my life. I mean not that dramatically but like it wasn't like I was having car accidents and running up debt or something it was just like very slowly my life was becoming incredibly repetitive nothing new was really happening that was meaningful I just like felt gross like I just kept doing the same thing every day it's like the thing that I used to do it's like okay you go out you have drinks with friends like who knows you're gonna meet like who knows what's gonna happen Like, who knows what funny thing you're going to say?

13:00It's going to be great. It's just like, it starts out like that. And then for me, it ended like, oh, I'm just like drinking like six glasses of wine alone at home. How did it get from there to there? The honesty part for me, I think, just came where I was like, well, yeah, that obviously is bad. But it's like, what else am I going to, like, this is the only thing that's fun for me. And I was kind of just like holding these two things that I'm like, I've got to solve this incredibly difficult puzzle. Like nobody else before me has dealt with something so challenged. And then one day I was like, no, it's not that hard.

13:35It's not the one thing I like. I think I'm just like willing to see what life is like without it. And I had this book that I had bought six months earlier that was like kind of gives you a new perspective on drinking. And I read that thinking it was going to suck. like the same day I decided I didn't I was like willing to try not drinking permanently what was the book uh it's called uh stop drinking now by Alan Carr oh yeah it's like it sounds crazy because he also he also wrote the book about how to stop smoking and he also wrote the book about how to like stop using cocaine like and he and his whole team have this suite of books about but really once you if you decide to believe them or if you become compelled enough to believe them the crux is the same it's like all these things that feel so special and private and mysterious it's like yeah they're addictions and they're just habits and if you just break the addiction addiction meaning like your body's used to it it's a habit it's a little cycle if you just like unravel it and feel excited about unraveling it like you're giving yourself something special and new instead of you're taking away something you love it's like you're giving yourself a better gift and it's like okay cool like because I don't think I would have responded to feeling like okay okay, now, Edith, you can't have this thing that everyone else gets to have.

14:47You have to, like, live in, like, time out for the rest of your life. It's like, now I can do that. But now it's like I get to be in the special place, and all the people who are still drinking are in the, like, time out. I totally understand that. I mean, I think that, like, one of the hardest parts for me was, like, I am a comedian. I mean, at the time I was, like, doing a lot of stand-up, and I would, like, be in places where part of... When did you stop drinking? I don't have like a clear date like it's been at least seven years maybe more but I'm like it might be 10 I was often in these places where like some or or often actually all of the pay was like drink tickets yeah so they're like come to do a show and like as a result you can take like five shots and I was like well I don't want that but I would just like end up where it was like four nights a week and but I think the one of the hardest parts was uh figuring out like what do I do?

15:39Yeah. Because it's just like a very socially accepted thing. It's like, I have a drink in my hand. We're drinking together. Now it's like, do I drink soda every night? Like, that was like a really hard part for me. Yeah. But I think it is true. At least it's true for me. I wonder if it's true for you is that there actually was like quite a bit of like creativity and like art into like, what does my life look like without alcohol? As opposed to just being like, I do the same thing everyone else does. And I think also that could like, really speak to people because a lot of times people like why would I want to stop drinking drinking's awesome but framed in that way it's like oh yeah I just like started doing what everyone else did until it was just like the only thing I did but it also felt very much like it was my choice I was on like this private romantic experience with this destructive boyfriend and like oh my god but it was really just like the same thing everyone else does yeah life post drinking is like, yeah, you have a lot more time.

16:34Like, what are you going to do with it? And what am I going to do with it? And what do I like to do? I mean, I've written about this a lot. So sometimes when I find myself like on my talking points, I feel like I'm really obnoxious. So I've written about this and drawn about it many times. But like literally after I quit drinking, maybe even the next day or that same afternoon or something or the week, I Googled like, what do people do besides drink um kind of as a joke to myself like the fuck is happening um because it wasn't it was sort of like a humorless time where it's like okay like phase two and there's no answers right like there's no answers but actually there like was a very boring answer that for me ended up being very real which was like there's like top 10 lists like go to a cafe like go to a museum i'm like am i really reading this right now and one was like rediscover activities you enjoyed as a child.

17:27I'm like, yeah, right, of course. It's like, that's like, for real. And I read about people who are like, yeah, I stopped drinking. Then I like got back into basketball or whatever, you know, like people, it's like, we liked it. Like when we're kids, we don't drink, you know, and we find a way to enjoy the world. I think people also have this idea a lot of times that like drugs or alcohol are the key to creativity or being interesting. Yeah. I think there's lots and lots of examples of people like making their best work or making work at all. When I was in my, I don't know, I was like 26 or something.

17:57This guy, friend of my boyfriend at the time, I was like spouting off at the bar and he was like, man, Edith, like some people are really annoying when they're drunk. Like you actually are more creative when you're drunk. And I was like, I knew it, but it certainly did not stay that way. I don't even think it was true at the time. And like, that's why it's tricky. Like it starts out kind of fun. You have like one or two positive experiences such that like you can no longer really be honest with yourself later on when you're like, am I having that many positive experiences now? Or am I just like repeating the same thing that worked like eight years ago, once or twice?

18:32There is a level of truth for me where I'm like, now at 11 PM or certainly at 1 AM, I am asleep. And I used to not be asleep at those times. And part of that is just age, but part of it is like, when you are like drinking, you go out and you like stay out past when you would want to stay out necessarily or like things just keep happening and accelerating because I think like that's just true it's like I I went to I started going to sleep a lot earlier and I woke up earlier and I had more time where I felt good and could like be clear-minded yeah that was like probably the most dramatic change for me I too I'm asleep at nine oh yeah absolutely I don't do any like my life is very boring like we're like I'm being interviewed right like that's cool good job I'm sure surely doing something right but like there's things that are missing It's like you go too much in one direction, you've got to course correct.

19:21There's no perfect way to live. You just kind of have to do what you do. I completely agree. And the constraints of my current life are more interesting to me than the constraints of my life when I stop drinking.

19:37We're going to take a quick break right now, but we will be back with more in just a moment.

19:53And we are back. A lot of your artwork, especially the stuff that really resonates with people, it's kind of about things that I think people would say are like normal. Can you tell me a little bit about how you think about that? Because I think those constraints have ended up being like creative fuel for you in a lot of ways. Yeah, a lot of it's just like not conscious. like I wake up and I go sit down in my office and I take out my pen it's like 4 35 in the morning and it's like my special time to myself because the children are sleeping hopefully and it's dark outside and it's very quiet and I've got my coffee and I just write about whatever comes to mind from the day before and like it usually starts out kind of awkward I'm like well what like oh like good dinner we had last night or whatever and then and then just like a thread will sort of present itself and I find that I want to draw about like oh yeah and then my daughter picked this flower and then like the flower reminded me of this lamp and it's just sort of right like I don't know it's kind of like what I want to create or what my hand wants to draw or what I feel like drawing and a lot of times like what you see is very little very very small percentage of what I actually do.

21:06It's like pretty, pretty dull most of it, like truly dull. You make art about like everyday stuff and you take it from your journal. Has making art about the everyday made you appreciate mundane objects or mundane experiences more? No. Okay, tell me. Let's say, let's say there's like a comic about how I drove the kids to the supermarket and we like had this funny experience at the supermarket. I'm not like, I can't wait to go to the supermarket because what a good time we had there. It just stays mundane. I haven't tapped into any secret of the universe or anything. Because I was mostly a writer for the first 10 years of my career.

21:51But I did a lot of art in college and I liked drawing little mundane things and sort of doing portraits of like a spray bottle but it was just college no big deal but I still like doing that stuff just like pouring a lot of attention and detail into like a screenshot of a YouTube video or something it's like relishing attention on unexpected destinations or things I think is like beautiful but I sort of I don't know there was some quote I don't even know what it is but it was like something about like the purpose of life is to spend attention and at the times when you don't have to. Well, I think that I've been thinking a lot recently about how a lot of going through the world is, it's just easy to not notice things, to be like totally numb and on autopilot.

22:41And it's easy to do that period. And I think that actually like there is something really important about being where you are. I mean, this is the, this is like, I came up with Buddhism, but just now, did you notice that? I'm going to quote Ram Dass in like the worst way, but I do think that part of your art is about like being where you are. I would say that it's about being where I am for like an hour and a half every morning. Cause I'm never where I'm at when I'm with the girls. Like, so I draw a comic about being in the supermarket, but like when I'm at the supermarket, I'm like, how do we get out of here?

23:13Like, um, why are they being so annoying? Um, maybe I'll take a selfie with them. So we look cute, but like, we gotta, And then the next morning, like we went to the supermarket. I'm going to drop. It's like I'm looking back at these moments. I don't know. It's hard to describe. But it does feel like I can't be in the moment all the time. It's just not. I'm not doing that right now. That's not my life. But there is this time that I've harnessed that's important to me where I feel like quiet and, I mean, flow state, something like that. It's like something akin to that where I'm thinking about these moments are like kind of arising and I'm observing them again in a way that I, a lot of it's just, I don't know what I'm doing really, but like something without too much thought or intention.

23:56and it's just like that's what I like to do or it feels good to have this moment to just like let things from yesterday bubble back up to the surface and take a few minutes or half an hour just like lavishing some attention and I'm like, oh yeah, my daughter picked a flower for me. I'm going to draw that today or oh, that like thing broke in the car. It was funny to look at. I'm going to like draw my memory of it. I feel you being like, who am I to say this stuff? Like I don't have this all figured out. Yeah. I just want to say, yeah, I'm trying to figure this stuff out. And like, it's much more helpful to talk to someone who is figuring it out than someone who's like, by the way, and that's how I've written 17 books this year.

24:36And you can see me. I'm the entire New York Times bestseller list. It's just me. So I just want to say that because I think that like that actually is really important. But you don't have to have it all figured out. So you have something to offer. I hope so. I mean, I feel that way when I'm feeling optimistic. I mean a lot of it's also like my husband makes this life possible for me like I was doing this before we met and then he like financially supports us so this question of like oh my god is my newsletter gonna make enough money to support myself was like well I can just move in with my husband like we're fine then we're gonna have a baby we're gonna move upstate like we can afford this I can spend the day kind of how I want in part because he's doing this and I'm not like I it's funny it's like I think I'm doing I'm doing work I like I'm glad if it resonates with people.

25:19I'm not like famous or anything. I'm not wealthy. I'm not making a lot of money off any of this. So like there's a little absurdity to this, but, um, that's cool. Uh, but I think that like, these are all the same questions that I genuinely am wrestling with every day right now. How do you like make time to make art when there's so much else going on in life? Like how can someone do that? What are three things that someone can do that like can create some space and allow them an actual time to do that? Well, staying up later, waking up early. I have time now in the middle of the day because we have childcare, but it doesn't work.

25:59Like I do more like administrative stuff during the day, but like it's essential to me to work early in the morning before anything enters my mind. I know some people it's like that at night, but yeah, early morning hours. Well, I have to say it because it's just blocking my mind if I don't say it. It's like, well, if you don't want make it then don't you don't have to it's like i think a lot of people who are artists they just do it because they feel compelled to so people who are like i just don't have time to make art i'm like you just you certainly do you can find time if it needs to come out of you i actually think that's so important i wrestle with like i want to be an artist like i want to do that but it takes so much control like so much self-control and so much self-discipline to like Like, do it.

26:46I think a lot about how you can't just say you're a doctor. But, like, if I don't do comedy, then I'm not a comedian. If I don't write, then I'm not a writer. That is the only thing that makes you that. And it takes so much to, like, actually do it when there's so many other things in life. I think that's, like, an element of discipline and self-control that I really am wrestling with right now. I don't know. I mean, I've just had, like, sort of a different experience. Tell me. which is why I hesitate to be prescriptive about any of it, which is like these narratives that I thought were true ended up not being true for me.

27:21Like for instance, about drinking, I thought that like everywhere you turn for the rest of your life is going to be like this pang of temptation and oh God, it's like, hasn't been like that for me at all. And also like, oh, that it's going to be the hardest thing. It's just like for some reason that one day was just like, okay, I'm done. Who knows what the future holds, right? But like, so that was bizarrely easy. And then it's difficult because sometimes my older, my younger daughter wakes up during this time. But like, it's easy for me. I don't, I don't set an alarm. But if compulsion, like feeling compelled to make stuff right now is the criteria.

27:57It's like, so yeah, it's sort of the opposite. It's like, it's not hard for me to carve this time out. It's also habitual, too. It's like, I carved it out when it was very easy for me. It's like, la, la, la. I can just wake up and go to the coffee shop and spend as much time as I want here. And so that became like the thing I did. And now it's like, well, I can't take this away from me. This is the cornerstone of my entire life. So like. But I wonder if it also has to do with something about like where you're willing to put yourself on the list versus other people. You know what I mean? Because for me, like making, like writing or telling jokes or performing live, like Those are times where I feel like the most myself.

28:37And so whenever I make the time to do them, I'm like, what a reminder. But it's really easy for me to not make the time. Especially when you have to care for family. And it's not just about you anymore. When you get to a phase where it's like, you're caring for your parents or you're caring for kids. I mean, you were hitting on this with the narratives. It's easy to fall into narratives about ourselves and our creativity and who we are and what life will be like. Even if they don't necessarily match up with reality. Yeah. Yeah. I think when you're responsible for other people, it's hard to carve out large chunks of uninterrupted time.

29:08And I think when people say, like, I just don't have the time to do blah, blah, blah, like, they're not lying. You wrote this really beautiful article about running and how sobriety and this physical activity of going for runs and jogging had kind of had an interesting relationship. Can you just tell us a little bit about that? Also, I just want to say, I feel like, I'm starting to feel just like an imposter where it's like, oh, you journal and you run instead of drink? It's like, yeah, you and like 50 % of the population. But yes. Well, what's the imposter part of that? Well, it's like, yeah, there's nothing special about what I do.

29:45So like, why would anyone want to talk to me about it? Oh, well, I think I can answer that one, which is you don't have to. I do. I think you're special. But I know that literally sounds like a Mr. Rogers episode. I think you're special, Edith. But I do. But I mean, really, I think like the fact that it works for a lot of people is why I'm interested in it. It's sort of like what you were talking about earlier about like when you make choices with your life that are not just like going with the flow. I mean, I don't think anybody thinks of themselves as going with the flow and just sort of doing whatever.

30:22Everyone thinks they're making decisions all the time, which they are. And like, I'm going with the flow with like 90 % of my life or something. Like every so often I feel like, oh, you know what? I want to like take a step back and redirect this. Or like, maybe I've only done that three times in my life and the rest of it is just going with the flow. But designing your life once you suddenly have more time or once you make a little choice where you're like, I'm actually not going to do this thing. I think it's really important. And because for me, like the thing, it was not difficult to stop drinking.

30:55But what was difficult was finding stuff to do with the time that emerged. Like I knit, I watched ASMR videos, I watched TV, I read thrillers. Because it was like, it was like kind of real with myself. I was like, what do I actually like to do? And like a lot of it I didn't really know. But I was like, well, I know I like doing these kind of reading these like trashy books and watching TV and knitting. I want I don't want it to sound like I've made real choices with myself. I think a lot of times when good things have happened, it's when I'm being realistic about my motivations. Yeah. Like now my creativity is better, too.

31:35It's like you're gonna be real. And also, like I wanted to like stick it to some people who thought I would probably never be able to. So you're like a harness, like spite a little bit, too. And anyway, so like you just work with yourself. and like your real impulses. I totally get it. Do you know? Of course. And I think like the idea that everything has to be like in this neat, tidy little package where it like makes sense all at once. And like I'm doing it for pure reasons is a big reason why a lot of people never make changes. This also, you were asking about running. Yeah, how did running play into all this?

32:02Well, running was, it sort of makes sense in retrospect, but I stopped drinking like nine years ago and then I started running six years ago. And that seems very close, but really there's three years, which, you know, is a lot. But so like that there was a lot of energy that was just there. So eventually through a very lucky chain of events, I started running like COVID was involved. I had to found this other exercise class that was like pretty good. I did that for like two years. And then COVID closed the exercise studio. And I was like, well, I'll do anything but run because I know I hate running because running is like the worst thing.

32:40I'd like tried it a couple of times. it's like completely the wrong fit for me to the point where I was like well I'm sure that I'd be good at some kind of exercise but it's certainly not running because like my body's not right like the way it moves it's just like physically deeply wrong like it just absolutely never never gonna happen and then yeah it's much lower stakes sort of like well let's just do let's just I'm gonna walk I'll walk around the park during COVID and join this Strava group which is an app for running another exercise, logging. So you can, it's basically like a social media for exercise.

33:13So if you do a run or a walk, you can show it to all your friends on Strava and they'll be like, oh, good job, you did a run. So that was like positive feedback. And then, yeah, I just sort of like started running, punctuated the running, walking, running, walking. And then eventually you can just like kind of keep running. I also had this idea that you're supposed to breathe through your nose. Yeah, where it's like, oh, if you don't breathe through your nose, you're like an animal. You have to breathe through your mouth. You must stop immediately. Like, you're going to die or something. Like, that's just such terrible form.

33:45And then my friend was like, that's not true. And I was like, oh, really? She's like, yeah, I don't. Everybody breathes through their mouth when they run. I was like, are you serious? Yeah, it's true. So, yeah, so I just breathe through my mouth like everybody else who runs. I'm breathing through every orifice while I'm running. I'm, like, a pretty good runner now, and I have to breathe through my mouth all the time. Other than where you're breathing, what are you thinking about while you run? Nothing special. I ruminate in a fight with my husband. I'll think about how wrong he is and how right I am.

34:12I don't know. When you're a runner, you want to convince other people to run, but I know that nobody wants that. Yeah, that's... And it's never worked. Everyone's been trying for a long time, but nobody cares. No one's like, I'm not a runner and I hate running, but I'm just going to pay attention to some of these essays that these proud people want to share. But so, so I'm always like trying to reach myself if I could have been encouraged to run earlier, but like it wasn't, it would never have happened. So people always tell me that when they run, they like get to a place where like their mind clears and they're in this euphoric state.

34:48And when I am running, I'm only thinking about when will I be able to stop running? That's like when I run, I'm like, just get to the sign and then you can stop. And I get to the sign and go, okay, just go to the tree. But like, it is just like a constant hostage negotiation in my head. How often do you run? Very rarely. Okay. Well, I think with running, I got to a point where I could maintain a trot sort of indefinitely. Wow. That felt like I had started like a new phase of life. Because when people say like, oh, I just went for like a half hour run. I'm like, what do you mean? That's how I feel.

35:22And then very quickly, actually, I was able to get to that point, like within a few weeks, just like trotting. I was like, oh, I get it now. Like you can just kind of keep going. And I was like, oh, I'm like a, it was a good feeling. So like those are some of the good feelings. And then you get to a point where you're not thinking about running. You're just kind of thinking about whatever. And it can kind of hurt, but that's just part of it. You're sort of thinking about something else. So you talked about how after you stopped drinking, you like quite literally Googled, like what do people do other than drink?

35:52And like, you know, three years later you started running. You know, you used to mostly be a writer. Then you started publishing your artwork as well. So there's been this process of like self-discovery of asking yourself, like what is it that I do and how do I spend my time? How has that process been an ongoing process and how has it been something where like you've found things and you want them to stick and be pillars? I just do what I like to do. I think that's a great answer. I think that is the answer. I mean, because my question is kind of like, how often do you figure out what you like to do and how often do you just stick?

36:27I feel like what I'm trying to say and what you're maybe trying to ask, which is maybe not true at all, is like, yeah, how do you find what you like to do? And how do you take a moment to be like, do I even like what I'm doing right now? And like, how do I change it? I think a lot of it is just luck. Like looking back on my own circumstances, that's why it feels difficult for me to recommend things to people. Cause like a lot of it has just been chance and luck and being fortunate that the things I like to do are pretty easy. Like, oh yeah, I still like to draw. Like I love to draw as a kid. It's like, I still really like to draw and I like to write.

36:58It's like, I do my little writing and I do my little drawing and I do a little writing and somehow it's just like really fun. It hasn't run out. And I didn't know that I liked running. That was totally new. Like I thought I had no sports stuff. If you want to find stuff that you might like to do, sometimes it's useful to think about things that you know that you hate doing. Because like for me, I'm like, well, I hate, I hate running. I'm like, I hate bicycling. So like maybe someday I'll get into biking. Something that I, I, I think about a lot with this is like, I know that I'm so different than the person I was five years ago and certainly than the person I was 10 years ago or 15 years ago but I sometimes forget that like the person who I will be in five years is really different than who I am now like I think like surely this is me now yeah like okay I've finally gotten to the place where I coast until yes until it's over yeah now I'm me and the answer but the answer is dull it's like just keep testing everything you think you know about yourself well, this is probably not true.

37:56I was like, well, great. Like, what does that even mean? Like, I don't know. Realistically, I don't know. I think it's just like being open to new experiences and retrying things. Because sometimes like the situation is just totally different or you're totally different. Edith, thank you so much for being on the show. This was an absolute pleasure to talk to you. Thank you for having me.

38:19That is it for today's episode of How to Be a Better Human. Thank you so much to our guest, Edith Zimmerman. Her newsletter is called Drawing Links, and you can find more from her, including her Etsy store where you can buy cards and prints and all kinds of other cool art stuff, at edithzimmerman.com. I am your host, Chris Duffy, and my book, Humor Me About How to Laugh More Every Day, is available for pre-order right now. You can find more about my book and all of my other projects at chrisduffycomedy.com. How to Be a Better Human is put together by a team who are cartoonishly wonderful. On the TED side, we've drawn together Daniela Balarezzo, Ban Ban Chang, Michelle Quint, Chloe Shasha Brooks, Valentina Bohanini, Lainey Lott, Tenzika Sun Manivong, Antonia Leigh and Joseph Debrine.

39:00This episode was fact-checked by Julia Dickerson and Mateus Salas, who believe in honesty and truth-telling. And on the PRX side, we've got Artists of Audio, Morgan Flannery, Nora Gill, Patrick Grant, and Jocelyn Gonzalez. Thanks again to you for listening. Please share this episode with a person who you think is cartoonishly wonderful, someone who you would like to see drawn into a cartoon, or just a person you think would enjoy this. We will be back next week with even more How to Be a Better Human. Until then, take care and thanks for listening.