How to learn from your failures (w/ Dawn Burrell)

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1:38You're listening to How to Be a Better Human. I'm your host, Chris Duffy. Today on the show, our guest is the incredibly accomplished Dawn Burrell. We're going to be talking about something that I think about a lot and that I know that many of you probably wrestle with, which is how do you figure out what you're supposed to be doing? Like, if you switch careers or change fields, what does that take? And Dawn is the perfect person to get into this with because you may know her as an Olympic long jumper or as one of the stars on the TV show Top Chef. But Dawn's career path from the highest levels of athletics to the highest levels of culinary achievement, it has been a long road full of many ups and many downs.

2:17In 1997, she won the long jump title at the USA Indoor Track and Field Championships. In 2000, she competed in the Olympics in Sydney, and in 2001, she won gold at the Indoor World Championships. But then she suffered an ACL injury to her knee, which changed the shape of her athletic career. So Dawn reinvented herself as a chef, studying culinary arts at the Arts Institute of Houston and working under acclaimed chefs in the US and London before becoming executive chef of culture in Houston, where she was a semi-finalist for a James Beard Award in 2020. That led to Dawn appearing on TV shows like Chopped and Cutthroat Kitchen and making it to the final three on Top Chef Portland.

2:57In 2023, Dawn returned for Top Chef World All-Stars, but was eliminated in the second episode. And here's Dawn talking about that experience. I thought it was a great show, and I enjoyed being in the arena again. I thought maybe, oh, this is it. This is going to be the one. I'm going to really, truly compete head-to-head, and it's going to be the epitome of culinary athleticism is what I thought, you know, it's like, and then I just kind of, you know, went in there and I put myself out there. I didn't get on the bracket and I had to come home and I had to deal with that and find the lesson. Career successes, career setbacks, reinventing yourself, finding meaning through it all.

3:37That is the topic of today's interview with the inspiring, the thoughtful and the incredibly determined Dawn Burrell. Hi, I'm Chef Dawn Burrell. I am an Olympian, a former professional athlete, and currently a chef. For people who aren't as familiar with your career path, or maybe who only know you from your work as a chef, can you talk to us about your time as an athlete and as an Olympian? So I decided to be an athlete because my brother was a successful sprinter. I followed him to University of Houston. at the time when my brother and I were having this conversation. I think I was in ninth grade and he was a junior at University of Houston.

4:21He was super successful. He led the nation in the 100 meter and I think was the collegiate record holder. All these good things, right? I was a ninth grader trying to figure out my everything, you know, being overshadowed by my brother. You know, I didn't have a sense of self or an idea of what I love to do. I only knew that I was incredibly athletic, but I wanted to play basketball. You know, I was like, oh, I want to do a different thing that my brother's doing, so I won't be compared, you know, my whole entire life, which happened, by the way. But we walked to the grocery store, and he was like, you know, Dawn, I know that you like basketball, but I really do think you'll be successful in track and field.

5:02It's like you have everything within you. And I was like, okay, you know, so I'll become this track and field athlete just like my big brother, right? And so I followed him to University of Houston, and I followed him into a professional career. This is the time period that I actually needed an example, to be honest, because I need an example to follow. And sometimes you need one when you're young or immature or whatever, and it's always nice to link up. But that doesn't mean, like, that's your last goal, right? Right. So if you have an example to follow, you know, as far as whatever career or talent that you're aspiring to be, I think it's helpful.

5:40I do think it's helpful to see an example. But once you mature and you start to have more confidence and confidence in yourself, you decide to travel, you know, roads that are even less traveled. You know, I'm trying to discover new things within yourself that you your mind has created for you to do. We talked about you getting into running, but can you talk to us about getting into long jumping and how that started? When you decide to compete professionally, you can just kind of choose one event or two events or a group of events that work well together. I went to work with a coach at Rice University, and he wanted me to long jump only because he was primarily a long jump coach.

6:23And I agree. And then you went to the Olympics and I'm sure you get asked this all the time, but what about the Olympics was like what you expected and what was different than you expected beforehand? I've never been asked this before. I imagine that it could open up like a world of new experiences. Like, you know, I've never been around so many people from so many different places. And so when I walked into the food hall, I just saw everyone from everywhere. And I thought that was really cool. You can go and talk to people and learn new things all day long if you wanted to, just about things that you've never been exposed to, right?

7:01And so I thought that was cool and that was what I expected. What I didn't expect is to feel so small in a stadium that was so big and so huge. Like it's so full of people and I'd never been on a stage that big before. I competed at the world championships. I competed like all over the world before then. But I never walked into a stadium like that. It was amazing. It was an amazing feeling. And it was also like kind of made me feel like a very small person with a very huge opportunity. We're going to talk more about that feeling of being small amidst a big opportunity in just a moment. But first, we're going to take a quick God break.

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10:10And we are back. I feel like a lot of people who I know in my personal life, and I know people who listen to this show, often think about switching careers, doing something completely different from what they do. And you have led this very public life of being at the top of two very challenging careers. What do you actually do when you are thinking about moving from one field to another? I think that what I do is I just decide. I just decide to do something. And I do love a challenge. I consider it natural. And I wish that more people would just decide because that's truly what it's about. You know, of course you have to have the talent to do so and the skill, determination, all those things.

10:57But deciding to really believe in yourself and move forward with what you're dreaming about or thinking about is the step. You know, you have to just do that first and foremost and then things will fall in line for you. For a lot of people and myself included, there's a real comfort to school, right? Because there is like a set framework. You have homework. You have tests. Doing well is getting an A. It's getting this number on a test. There's like success and failure are really clearly defined. You moved from university and you went into the world of professional athletics, into the Olympics.

11:36There's, again, a really clear metric for what you're supposed to be doing, for what it means to be successful, for what it means to not be successful. Yes. And then in the world outside of athletics and in the world outside of school, I think a lot of people, and again, myself fully included, really struggle with the idea that there's no longer clear metrics, that there's not like someone who is the adult in the room saying, well, if you get a 100, that means you are a good boy. And if you get a 50, it means you need to work harder. That doesn't exist as much in the real world. So how have you adjusted to that?

12:11How have you struggled with that? Initially, when I started out cooking, I would tell you that I needed a metric, right? I needed a gauge. And I was like, you know what, I'm going to start competing. I'm going to compete culinarily. And that'll tell me if I'm any good or not. You know, because I didn't know, especially as an athlete. I mean, for a long jumper like me, a tape measure doesn't lie. That's what you did. I was like, so I need something like that. And so I think that the gauge is truly when you move people with food, right? I think for me, my current gauge is like when people come and they gather for my experience or I do catering or, you know, I'm doing this tasting event with a number of chefs.

12:57I think that when I get the feedback of how the food was incredibly good to them and they were moved by it and the wow as they look at that plate, I think that I consider that a job well done. I think that's the most rewarding part for me and also the metric that I need to know that I, when people come and eat with me, they feel like a sense of warmth, a sense of love. They really open up. Their face changes and their eyes widen. And like, it's just a really fulfilling thing for me. And I'm even more fulfilled when what I do touches children like that or touches or teaches someone about food or food resources.

13:42You know, I mean, that's even more rewarding for me. How did you transition from the tape measure to human connection? Because those are really different ways of judging yourself. I guess in educating myself about food and culture and understanding that food and gathering the understanding that food is a basic need for all human beings and to know that everyone in every culture has their idea of what moves them, right, or what they love in their cuisines. I think that my transition came where I realized that this is a need and this is food and people are trusting you to put these things in their body and they're appreciating it, like how it makes them feel on the inside.

14:29I think that was enough for me. And the more I grow an appreciation of this, the less all of the really fancy, really intricate things about like plating and all those things matter. Because food is meant to be enjoyed. It's not meant to be challenging intellectually, I don't think. Like, you know, I think that you can show really cool things with food and you could do really interesting things that with slight manipulation, like make a chitrone out of fish skin and making all these things. And people like, oh, you know, educating them about how you can utilize the whole thing, the whole animal.

15:09I think those things are cool. And it's my favorite thing to do, by the way, is that type of transformation. but having a plate of food that you have to stare at and understand, try to figure out and understand and wonder what it is. That's not really my jam. You're preaching to the choir for sure. That's not me either. I like to understand what I'm eating and enjoy it. I don't want to be, there's places where I like to be challenged. That's not one of them. But in the beginning, I wanted to know how to do these things and I can still do some of them, but I realized that that's not food for everybody.

15:42And I'm not saying that everybody knows what a rutabaga is, but they know that it's a root and it grows in the ground and they can see it. You know what I'm saying? Oh, this is what it looks like. But if it's manipulated into noodles, then how can they possibly know what a rutabaga is? I mean, no disrespect, I love gastronomy. I love, like, for myself, because sometimes I'm like, what else can we do with food? I just want to know from my own knowledge, because this is my field, but I don't want to serve people in that way. And I love to be a chef, and I love to cook food, and I love to bring people together.

16:22But the last one that I said is the most important thing to me, the bringing people together, the communion of everything, right? And so I love, more than anything, creating new experiences for people. That I'm delving right now into, you know, a type of creativity that I haven't really seen before. And I'm doing it in a way that that is satisfying to me and elevates not only me, but the artist or the maker or the chef that I'm doing the dinner with. The dinner series is called Sound and Color. And can you give us like the two sentence pitch for what Sound and Color is? Sound and Color is a culinary experience in collaborations with artists and makers.

17:08We come together and we create a unique experience, a dining experience for the guests. I love that. I'm creating it still because, you know, every time the experience is different, you know, depending on like who I'm doing the event with. I no longer have this like vivid example to follow. I can pull bits and pieces from people who are still in the culinary field and then more things in the field of artistry and kind of come up with or find resources for the idea that has been planted within me. So when we talked about you getting into athletics and getting into track and field, your brother was the mentor who really helped you guide the way and show you the path.

17:51Did you have a mentor or something similar when you were getting into cooking and into food? Yes, I had a chef, Mark Hawley, here in the city. He used to talk to me a lot, and he taught me a lot. Monica Pope is who I started out with here. And then I have conversations with a chef that I truly admire, who's here in the city, and is kind of quietly killing it. but he's not seeking all the other things that are clawing at. He's not in the competition to be the chef. He is just doing his thing authentically, and it is amazing. Chef Ryan Perra. He's also the husband of a really good friend of mine.

18:32She founded the nonprofit that I'm on the board of. It's called I'll Have What She's Having, and we provide preventative health care maintenance for women in the industry, and mental health care maintenance for men and women in the industry. That's beautiful. What's your favorite thing to cook? And then what's your favorite thing to eat? I love braises and stews, you know, from all cultures. I think those are my favorite things to make. From like the Vietnamese fish caramel pork, you know, like you stew it down in the fish and the sugar and the herbs and the aromatics, right? To the African peanut stew.

19:13Very similar concept, different ingredients, right? They're all braises and they make you feel a certain way, I think. And that's what I like. And then I love a really good salad. And so these are my favorite things to make. My favorite things to eat involve your hands. Like I love to eat with my hands. That's fufu, that's injera, that's tortilla. Yeah. You know, anything that I can grab and eat because I feel like that's the food of the people. Right. It's so good. It's really cool to hear the way that you draw connections between different cultures and ingredients and how they inspire your cooking.

19:50And so many of those foods that you just mentioned are my favorite foods, too. So a lot of the way that people know you as a chef publicly is from being on these cooking competition shows. And then obviously competition was a big part of your life as an athlete. So it seems like that's a thread that runs through your life and your career. I'm curious, how do you think about competition as a virtue? I've never considered competition to be a virtue, but I think that when I think of competition, I think of endurance. And when I think of endurance, I think of the strength to endure the thing, right?

20:25And the reason that I can say that competition might be a virtue is because I know strength is. I think that I've always wanted to test my skills and test my resilience and test my strength. And not only test my courage, but enrich, like, beef up my courage. You know, you have to be courageous to do some of the things that I've done, you know, because I've been on the other side of this, too. Like failures can be damaging, you know, and a lot of people don't have the strength to move through a thing or move toward a thing like competition or they can't even picture themselves putting themselves out there.

21:11They may be the best cook, the best chef that I've ever seen, but they just don't have the thing it takes to do that. Right. I've had many chefs tell me that they don't think that they do. They're lacking the strength and the courage, or they don't see the strength and the courage within themselves. Or they are damaged by what they consider to be failure. I'm also living that right now because, like, you know, I am learning how to process failure differently. And I do get hurt when I don't win because I'm a competitor. I've been a competitor all my life. And I'm like, I've worked really hard for this.

21:47What does it mean if I didn't win? You know, it's like, what does it mean? Do I suck? You know, it's like, you know, I had to learn that it doesn't mean that. I've learned that to appreciate my failures, you know, to grow me to the next step, you know, because you learn so much more when you make these mistakes and you don't win or you don't accomplish the goal that you set out to do. you're learning what it might take and what you didn't do, what you did do that was very wrong. And so if you have the courage and the strength to take these lessons to the next endeavor or to the next thing, then that's where the growth happens, right?

22:24One of the questions that people always ask or almost always ask about, you know, me doing professional comedy is, oh man, what happens when you bomb? What happens when someone heckles you? And people are very attached to hearing the stories about like when it goes badly, which is absolutely a big part of the job. But I think it's because they think like, oh, that must be horrible. And that is actually the job is like you get to have the fun, good parts because you do the parts where it goes badly and people don't like it. And if you're not getting those, it means that you're actually not trying hard enough.

22:55You're not like trying new things. You're not experimenting. You kind of can't avoid that to actually be good. And I imagine it's the same thing in what you do. Yeah, of course it is. Like, I just, I filmed Tournament of Champions last November or December something. This is Top Chef Tournament of Champions? It's Tournament of Champions with Guy Fieri. It's on Food Network. And it's done in a true tournament style. So it has brackets and, you know, head-to-head competition, like seated competition and all of that stuff. You know, and I appeared on the episode that we had to, we were competing to be on the bracket.

23:31You know, so it was the qualifying round, so to speak. And here I am competing to be on the qualifiers. And I have some people that compete on Top Chef just like me who don't need to compete to be on the qualifiers, right? They are competing. They already on the bracket. They've bypassed it and are on the bracket or they competed last year so that they did well and now they're on the bracket. So I had to compete to get on. And I lost. And I was devastated for a couple of days and for many reasons, right? But what I learned from that is, you know, the Food Network thought my stories are impactful, you know, and they loved my interview set.

24:18That was the part that I learned the most from. What people want to hear, because I don't know. Like, I don't know what part of my story people want to know and are entertained by, right? or not even entertained, but intrigued by. I learned that telling more and more of it is what it's about for me. It's not necessarily about the win. So maybe I was supposed to lose, you know, because I've gained this knowledge for myself, you know, and this is why I'm able to tell a story to you like this right now. So often you can't know what was, I'm putting it in quotes, right or wrong until way afterwards.

25:02In the moment, it's really hard to judge. It seems like it's a great opportunity. I mean, there's so many fables and religious parables about this where it's like, it seems like a blessing. It's actually a curse. It seems like a curse. It's actually a blessing. You never quite know until afterwards. All of that. Yeah. You never know. And I had to find what was good about that experience. And when I reflect, I truly have a lot of good stories to tail and a lot of nuggets that I can take for the next time if they allow me to compete again.

25:35We're going to take a quick break and then we'll be right back with more from Dawn.

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27:25And we are back. You had won some really, really big awards, right? You won the 2001 World Indoor Title in the long jump. And I think that then going to the Olympics and realizing like, oh, there are other people who are also really good at this. I can imagine that after having the experience of being like, I'm the by far the best to then be surrounded by people who are all the best in their retrospective places. In some ways, that could be a little like destabilizing to think like, but wait, I'm supposed to be the best. How am I surrounded by this many bests? So the beauty of being an American athlete is that the most difficult thing to do is to compete at our Olympic trials or our national championships because we are our best competitors, right?

28:16At that time, we were leading the sprints, the jumps, and so it was very difficult for us to get on our team. So once you do that, because the pressure's on the Olympic Games, the pressure's on the national championships. So once you do that, like the pressure is a little bit off, you know, at the world championships because now it's like, OK, I could just bring everything out. Abandon all fear of not possibly making the team. OK. And so the thing that is the most interesting that you might know is that we compete against the same people all season. So we see these people internationally. We see these athletes internationally.

28:51So we know exactly what we're working with. It's not a new experience every time. It's like, okay, I remember, you know, that she does this and she can do this. You have your competitors, but you also have to compete against yourself to bring the best out of yourself. Because it's not as challenging as you would think because you know exactly who you're working up against. And you also are there. You know, you've made it to the spotlight, which was the most challenging part. It's interesting to have a moment where you can like redefine what success necessarily means, because obviously like getting to the Olympics is the success.

29:31Like that is the success. But then there's also this question of like, are you going to be the number one? And it's like that actually doesn't matter. Right. Like like you have to decide for yourself what is success. What you're talking about is a very internal thing for an athlete, I think, because it requires your mental strength to pull out your best performance. And your measurement of success is, have I done that? Have I pulled out my best performance? And it is, you know, and it is a physical measurement. Like it is a, you know, something that you can read and identify. We talked about this earlier.

30:06You know, there's a metric to it. Like you ran 994 here when you are capable of running 988 and you've done that this season. What about this performance was lacking? It's more about like your actual performance and what you did, what you're able to pull out of yourself. When you are looking to your left and you're looking to your right and you have the best competitor in the world, like you're number one, they're number two and three, like that can change up all season long, right? It's about who's mentally strong in that moment when the gun goes off, right? And who can pull out their best performance in that moment.

30:46So you have that mental strength, you have that ability, and you also have this real precision of like, this is how far I can jump. This is the line that I know I can do. And you've spent all these years of, you know, having a bunch of events and then whittling it down and whittling it down until you have your very clear specialty. And then you decide, okay, I'm going to switch and I'm going to be a chef. Talk to me about the work that it took to then start doing that whittling again from a place where it's actually quite open. Like you could be any kind of chef that you want. You could cook any kind of food.

31:20You could do anything. It doesn't have to be a chef. How do you then reapply that to a new field, this new arena where you're trying to then figure out what your thing is again? When you are challenging yourself and you're entering a new thing and you're on this stage, you have to believe that you can even do better than before, by the way. You have to believe in what is in you that has not yet been seen. I think that is the key to have so much courage to pull out and so much focus to pull out what you have not seen in yourself yet is the key. And so when you enter into these new fields, and I've tried to challenge myself way before I could do the things that I can do now, culinarily, for example, because I felt like one day I'd be able to do it.

32:07I believe in myself enough to know that I may not have the skills right now, but I am getting myself ready for the time period that when I get my chance, you know? And so I just believe that I can do it and not do the work that will bring it to life and bring it to fruition. It feels like as I'm kind of prodding out or pushing at questions of like competition or success, we keep coming back to really like questions of purpose. And then also this idea that like you're not fixed and that you can actually grow and get better and improve. And you have you kind of combine those two ideas of like, I'm going to have a really clear purpose and then I'm going to do the work that it takes to get towards that purpose.

32:52And that that's really what is driving these changes. That's exactly it. I think I'm still learning that. Like, what is my purpose? My purpose is I think my purpose is helping people grow, bringing people together, telling this story. I'm living these things so I can tell this story so that people can recognize that they can do these things too. And that life is not going to be perfect. You are going to fail. And it is okay. You're not always going to feel great. But you do it anyway. You do it anyway and you just keep doing it. And as long as you keep going, you will be able to achieve and accomplish all that you set out to do.

33:32or all that you're intended to do. Because sometimes when you set out to do something, it might not be the best thing for you. You know, it might be that you want to be this, like, oh, I want to be this Michelin star chef. Well, maybe the intention is for you to create a whole bunch of Michelin star chefs. And as long as you grab hold of what I call it my heart song, you grab hold of that thing that you love so dearly And you just take everything, everything as a lesson, everything as fuel, as fuel and guidance towards your purpose instead of feeling bad because it didn't go your way. When I was younger, it felt like all of this stuff was tied up just in career.

34:17Like it was like, OK, if I can have this career success, that's the whole thing. And then as I've gotten older, I have family that I care about that I want to take care of. I have relationships that I care about that I want to take care of. And sometimes it has felt like, well, that's separate from like success or from my goals. But then when I zoom out, it's really like, well, how do you build a life that you're that feels like a success? And sometimes the job and the career successes are separate from that. They're not actually as entwined as they were when I was younger. All of these things are intertwined right now, you know, for me.

34:49Right before Top Chef, my mother suffered a stroke and like she was my why, you know, and I was like, I need to get home. I'm going to set myself up better so that I can help with this family situation. And, you know, and then I pull my nieces and nephews into it and I try to pour into them into my being a successful member of this family by bringing them into whatever it is that I'm doing, you know, to see if they want to be a part of it and helping them grow. And then, you know, to right now where I'm having to shift how I'm doing work a little bit because my parents are getting older and I have to contribute directly to their household, you know, so that I can make sure that they're functioning and that they're safe.

35:32All of these things are me attribute to success. If I'm able to balance all of this and endure all of this and still do my work, I feel like it's a job well done in this life, you know. And so it's not always about the fame and the success and the awards, you know, and your professional career is how you balance it all and how you tell your stories so that, you know, people know that they're not alone. People have family situations that are challenging, but they're still able to do what they love with the right perspective. I mean, to me, I'm so much more impressed by those people, right? By people like you, where you're like, hey, I take care of people who I love.

36:12I'm taking care of my family. I'm taking care of my parents. And I'm holding myself to these standards of not like perfection, but But what are my goals? What do I believe I can work towards? Like having a vision while still taking care of people around you? Because it's also it's really easy to be extremely successful and a terrible human being. Right. Like that's actually easier. So I think that I think when you think of the whole picture, that's that just to me, much more impressive. Thank you. Thank you. I'm trying. And, you know, it gets harder because, you know, the people that you're caring for, they're getting older, so they need more.

36:47so that the need increases. But, you know, as long as I am willing to pivot slightly or shift how I want to do things so that I can be available, I think I'm doing a good job, you know. And I have been able to do that, you know, consistently for the last few years. I still feel fulfilled in my career and in everything that I'm doing. Well, related to that, what's your relationship to perfection now? Now with your athletic background and your work ethic and competitive spirit, how do you think about your relationship to perfection now? I've never been married to perfection. I don't even like perfection.

37:26I don't think that it exists. But I do love excellence. My goal is always aspiring to be excellent. But I do think there's value in imperfection because that's what makes us all who we are, those parts. And so I'm not married to perfection. I don't like it. I love that answer. Not a lot of chefs get an opportunity to watch themselves back. It's very rare that they have footage of themselves. But you were on Top Chef. You've done a lot of televised cooking. Is there anything that you learned about yourself and your cooking from having this ability to watch yourself back afterwards? I really like to watch how I'm growing.

38:12My internal battle is that I always feel like I suck. I'm just going to be honest. Relatable. To me, very relatable. And so to see moments when I didn't suck and I was like, oh my gosh, like look at me. And so it gives me the strength and the confidence to keep going. This is how, that's my method of going and growing. But I also see myself in that moment when I didn't have it and see myself thrive. I'm like, girl, what were you thinking? You did it and you did very well. And to hear the nation or those that are your fan base echo it is even more rewarding, gratifying. And so I enjoy watching myself in a moment when I was scared to death from the outside after it's always been already been filmed and seeing myself thrive in a way that I didn't imagine.

39:12In the kitchen, you have to make a lot of decisions really quickly. How do you gain and maintain confidence and trust in making rapid fire decisions, even as things are happening that are unpredictable or that maybe aren't going as smoothly as you would have hoped ahead of time? Mm-hmm. My strength lies in that my athletic background taught me to be good under pressure. And so these decisions or quick pivots are easy for me because I'm always thinking about, like, what in this performance could make this better? Like, what can I do right now to make this better? Just as when I was long jumping and I was approaching the board and I would have to adjust a little bit because I was like, oh, the wind is behind me.

39:57Let me slow down a little bit. The wind is in front of me. I need to push a little bit harder. So it made it easy for me to transition at, you know, because I've always made these like acute decisions that can fix a problem. And that is a real part of what being a chef is about. When you're starting a new recipe, when you're coming up with a new dish, where do you like to begin? What does the creative process look like for you? Most times I begin with an ingredient and I figure out what I would like to do to make this ingredient shine. Or a culture, like what are ingredients that are heavily used in this culture and how can I bring them together in a way that reflects me and the culture in its best light.

40:43You know, so those are the two things that I think I'm led by when I'm creating something. and the season, of course, the season, the ingredient, the culture, if we're talking about vegetables, you know. Maybe you could share and kind of like a live reading of one of your recipes that you have on your website if you're open to that. Yeah. Did y 'all pull one? It's the kabocha squash and aged cheddar strata. So this is a recipe that I came up with for Thanksgiving. It's a kabocha squash with aged cheddar strata. Here are the ingredients. six eggs, two cups of milk, one cup of heavy cream, seven cups of stale crusty bread like a baguette, two cups of aged white cheddar, two and a half cups of kabocha squash, thinly sliced because it's a very rigid squash, one cup of red onions thinly sliced, two cloves of garlic, grated five sage leaves, a nachipanade, three sprigs of fresh thyme picked, a quarter cup of white wine, one teaspoon of chili flake, one tablespoon of honey, one tablespoon of salt plus more if needed, and a pinch of black pepper.

41:52You'll preheat the oven to 400 degrees, melt butter in a medium saucepan, and set aside in a large bowl. when you toss together the red onions the sliced kabocha squash sage thyme and the grated garlic then you'll add the melted butter with the honey and the olive oil and white wine sauce and the chili flakes and toss the coat so after you toss them together you'll spread them on a sheet tray and then you will after you spread them on the sheet tray you'll roast them in the 400 degree oven for about 20-30 minutes until they're caramelized remove them from the oven and you'll set them aside to cool because you don't want them to curdle the egg mixture.

42:33And then you'll reduce the oven temperature to 350 for the strata itself. Meanwhile, you'll place the torn bread in a large mixing bowl. And then in another bowl, you'll combine the eggs, milk, and heavy cream, salt, and pepper. You'll then add the bread to the egg mixture. And you'll put three quarters of the cheese and also the roasted squash mix into the bowl with the egg and bread mix. You'll mix that all together and then you'll place that mixture in a casserole. When you'll put the remaining cheese on top of it, oh you'll soak it for an hour and then you will bake it in a 350 degree oven for 45 minutes covered with foil.

43:18You'll remove the foil and return the casserole to the oven for an additional 20, 30 minutes until it's golden on the top. Take it out of the oven and you'll serve it while hot. Or you can allow it to cool completely and cut it into portions before serving. People can find that recipe, all of it written out and a beautiful photo on your website, chefjohnbrill.com slash recipes. So Chef Don Brill, it's been such a pleasure to talk to you. And I really appreciate you making the time and sharing your wisdom and your expertise with us here today. Yes. Thank you for having me.

43:56That is it for this episode of How to Be a Better Human. Thank you so much to today's guest, Chef Dawn Burrell. You can find her on social media at Chef Dawn Burrell. I am your host, Chris Duffy, and you can find more from me, including my weekly newsletter and other projects at chrisduffycomedy.com. How to Be a Better Human is stewed together by a team of culinary professionals. On the TED side, we've got the cultural taste buds of Daniela Balarezzo, Ban Ban Chang, Michelle Quint, Chloe Shasha Brooks, Valentina Bohanini, Lainey Lott, Tansika Sungminivong, Antonia Leigh and Joseph De Bruyne. This episode was fact-checked by Julia Dickerson and Mateus Salas, who never want to leave a false taste in your mouth.

44:32On the PRX side, they are all gold medal athletes and currently executing a flawless long jump. Morgan Flannery, Nor Gill, Patrick Grant, and Jocelyn Gonzalez. Thanks again to you for listening. You make our career journeys possible. Without you, we would be unemployed and just talking into a computer alone. Please share this episode with a person in your life who you think would enjoy it. We will be back next week with even more How to Be a Better Human. Until then, thanks for listening and take care.

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