Why you should try improv comedy (w/ Rick Andrews)

0:02Chris Duffy: This is How to Be a Better Human. I'm your host, Chris Duffy, and one of my favorite things in the entire world is improv comedy. I know that is very much not cool and hip to say that one of my favorite things in the entire universe is adults playing make-believe together, but it is true. I absolutely love it. And I think that one of the things that I love the most about it, whether it's watching it or performing it myself, is that good improv skills, in my opinion, are the same as good people skills. How do you listen really closely? How do you make other people look good? How do you deal with unexpected situations?

0:36Chris Duffy: How do you remember something that is fun and playful and bring it back later on? They're all skills that are kind of basic to improv, but they're also skills that make people the kinds of people that I want to spend time with, the kinds of people that I want to be around. And today's guest, Rick Andrews, is an incredible improviser. He is very much someone who I want to spend time with. But more than just being a great performer, Rick is an amazing teacher. He has been teaching for years. He's taught so, so, so many people. And what he's learned is that we can all get better at playing, at improvising, and making our lives funnier, more exciting, and more of an all-around good time.

1:14Chris Duffy: We're going to talk so much more about how to do that. But first, we're going to take a quick break for a few words from our sponsors.

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3:13Chris Duffy: And we are back. Today, we are talking about improv with Rick Andrews. Hi, my name is Rick Andrews. I teach and perform improvisation. So Rick, you've been performing and teaching for a really long time, and I have been a fan of your work for a really long time. From the first time I saw you and every time I see you, I'm always struck by what a talented performer you are. But I also am struck by the fact that your real passion, I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, isn't actually about being on stage and getting the attention for yourself. It's really about teaching and sharing improvisation with others.

3:47yeah i i really enjoy performing and i find that very like satisfying but it feels like a like um uh i don't know it's like a sugar rush a little bit that kind of fades quickly and um i feel like teaching and watching people get excited and fall in love with something that you are excited about is like feels you know really um meaningful in a nice way and part of what is nice about improv is that i don't know it's not just about like being funny so i think if it was just kind of like, I'll teach you how to be funny. I don't know that I would feel like deeply passionate about. I think it's more about like the sense of like presence and creativity and being playful and being less self-judgmental.

4:25I think a lot of those are things that help people not like freak out all day long. Certainly helped me that way. So it feels like there's something meaningful that's being delivered in the, almost by accident, in the act of like learning how to improvise.

4:37Chris Duffy: Well, so for people who don't, aren't already familiar with your work, I mean, you're too humble to fully brag for yourself. But I will just say from my perspective, you are truly regarded as like one of the single greatest improv teachers in the world. And you have taught everyone from, you've taught children, you've taught senior citizens, you've taught people in big corporations, you've taught Ira Glass from This American Life, you've taught Zoran Mabdani, the mayor of New York, before he was the mayor. So you've really like taught this huge range of people and over many, many years. What do you think the biggest thing that a regular person, someone who is not interested in being a comedy professional gets out of learning improv?

5:19I think managing uncertainty improv is making up an idea, a scene, a story on the fly, right? And the inherent nature of that is that you cannot be in control of where it's going to go. And I think people's brains do not like change and that kind of disruptive feeling. And so there's this like protective cognitive shell that we throw around where we lock into ideas or we would kind of disconnect from what's that kind of actually going on and i think it's not that improv like makes you better at like knowing what's going to happen i think if you watch where the good improvises it kind of seems like they knew they know where it's going but you you don't develop this kind of like clairvoyance you instead just get very comfortable not knowing what's going to happen and like managing uncertainty but the um the extra anxiety on top of it of like managing that uncertainty of like all the stuff that I can't control, I think, becomes that you don't like turn it off entirely, but that voice gets quieter, I think.

6:13I've noticed that it's kind of not possible to be bored if you're hanging out with like three or four improvisers. It's not really like, because if nothing's happening, well, it's kind of not really possible, right? Like you're sitting at the airport terminal and there's a delay, like, you know, instead of people just like complaining all the time, I feel like people just like look around a little bit and I'm like, hey, look at how that guy walks. That's interesting. Yeah, that sign doesn't make any sense you know why why do they call it hudson news you know whatever like there's just a kind of curiosity about the present moment that i think does like translate off of the stage a little bit

6:42Chris Duffy: the way that we are talking right now is actually kind of a great illustration of what building the muscles of improvisation have allowed you to do because we are talking like not around the day that you are moving across continents but literally like you are doing this interview and then in several hours you will leave for the airport to move from the United States to Europe. And you seem so unbothered by that. The fact that we're like talking now and then you're going to have to leave to the airport and bring your family to an entirely new continent. I would be, even though I have studied improv too, I would be like pouring sweat and so stressed.

7:19Chris Duffy: And yet you seem remarkably unstressed about the fact that you're about to do a transcontinental move. I might be like missing a section of my brain, you know, but I do think that Like, I taught all my classes yesterday, like Sunday is a day that I teach and perform. And my classes were like, oh, when are you moving? And I was like, tomorrow. And they were all like, why are you here? Yeah, yes, that's exactly right. I didn't understand the question, the reaction. I was like, why teach on Sundays? This is our last class, you know? I feel like improv is like, I've heard from people, it's like, it helps on dates and job interviews or whatever.

7:47Not that that's like the purpose of it, you know, or like how, like why you should do it. But it is one of those things where anything, where you're in this situation where you feel a little nervous um you don't know how it's gonna go someone might ask a question you weren't expecting it's a lot of like just managing that moment a little bit and i think you're doing that through like an enhanced set of like listening skills a little bit like just paying attention being in the moment noticing stuff um but also like i think it builds self-confidence in a more genuine way you know it's not about like i don't know pretending to be this confident person it's like improv is a lot of as i'm sure you felt learning it and getting really good at it right It's like you are trying your hand at it and not great at it at first, but you're doing this context where people are building off of every idea you say, no matter how bad it is, and people support you.

8:30So you kind of get to prove your ideas' validity to yourself. I feel like I constantly was having moments where I was like, I don't know what I should do. And then I would say a thing. And you're seeing part was like, great. Yeah. And then you're like, OK, yeah, that was good. You know, like it is like I'm putting the bumpers up on the bowling alley lane so you like can't actually get a gutter ball. And that's what improv like feels to me. In a lot of ways, it reveals like a truth that we all know, right?

8:53Chris Duffy: Which is that you can actually only control the thing in the present moment, right? Like you only control what you're doing right now. You've acknowledged the truth that like a lot of us pretend that we don't. Do I wish I had packed more earlier? Absolutely. You know, it's not that like you do, you like learn the skill and then you stop like planning for things. It's just like, no matter how much you plan, you can't control everything. And so planning is really good, but it's just, it's never going to go exactly how you think it's going to go and it's never going to be and i think some of that also like there's a reduction of anxiety there's also kind of um when you're so anxious and worried about it and it it saps you from the present you're missing out on all these really wonderful like moments um we both have like young kids and i wonder if you felt some of this being with like a little kid where they just like stop and like look at a leaf totally and they will sit there and look at a leaf for like five minutes and it's not an activity that i uh often do like walking around but it's awesome looking at a leaf totally rocks.

9:46And I should stop more and look at a leaf, like thinking about all the 10 things I have to do. I'm kind of missing the thing that is happening. And in improv is you're building scenes. That's where a lot of the joy and discovery comes from that we get to figure out these fun ideas together. And in life, it feels like when I remind myself to do that, I'm like, actually, I noticed stuff. I noticed things that are beautiful or sad or interesting or compelling or funny or whatever it is.

10:07Chris Duffy: Yeah. Well, one of the things that I think is so great about spending time with a young kid is they combine what we've been talking about, like that real presence in the moment because they just live in the moment. But they also combine it with this silliness. And I think it's not always intentional with a kid, but I think as an adult, this is the other flip side of improv is the silliness and play that I love. I mean, I was trying to think in preparation for this interview, what my first memory of you was, and it was watching you perform at an improv festival. I think it was in Boston. And you were an anthropomorphized gumball machine.

10:45Chris Duffy: And you were performing as the gumball machine. And it was so silly. And I just remember laughing so hard, like truly tears coming down my cheeks as I was watching you be in improv. I was doing improv. It's like someone who gets blackout drunk and I don't remember what they did. You're like, if you say so. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, also, you've done this like thousands of times. That sounds fun. I would do that again if I did that. That sounds great. Yeah. Well, but this is what I mean. It's like it was really fun, but it was also so silly. Like you were in the moment pretending to be that. But also that's not something that like you could be very in the moment for your whole life and never pretend to be a gumball machine because there's a silliness there that is also like that bringing that childlike play back into your life as an adult is also a big piece of this too.

11:23I think that's part of also what it's like, it feels like kind of meaningful silliness, you know, because it's, um, it's a collaborative thing, not like a, the kind of like silly jokey thing that feels like unfun is like talking to someone and it's like, they're trying to take everything you say and like be funny, you know, and do a bit. and it's it's kind of um intolerable you know because it's not really like a genuine um engagement with you versus this sense of of kind of playfulness where they're there and engaging with you but they're just seeing the world with a playful eye and you know pretending to be a gumball sheen that was alive would probably not be very fun if i was doing with a bunch of people who acted like what i was doing was so lame and stupid yeah and but you're doing in this context where everybody else i'm sure i don't remember that show but i'm sure they were all like this is great and they like built around it and so it's kind of like you learn over time that like one like the confidence and the lack of like self-criticism i think is actually like what the audience is engaging with like they want to watch you guys like play in this like full um fully present way and also you're like freed up to do that through the support of it like i don't know that i have it in me to like do that by myself you know to just be everybody's you know no people have your back and they're going to make whatever you do look good it just creates this huge space where you actually feel like you can't fail or it's kind of like not even on you to figure out like why it's good it's like other people are going to do that job and i think that that's a huge part of it is the like rapport and the trust and like the corporate term of like psychological safety like everything that that is like a lot of what improv is building this is what

12:49Chris Duffy: i have trouble sometimes explaining to people who haven't done improv a lot or even people who are improvisers who just improvise in a different way than i do is that i think the skill is really great And I think it builds these cool muscles of attention and playfulness and connectivity. But to me, the thing that actually I really loved the most about improv and I like doing stand up, too. I like doing all sorts of comedy. But the thing that I love the most about improv was when you perform a lot with the same people. So not just once, right? Like once you still feel that, oh, you have my back.

13:19Chris Duffy: But like when you really get to know each other and you know what they think is funny and you know the things that they have references for and the things that they don't have cultural references for. That like deep knowledge of each other combined with the trust that you're going to make each other look good. That to me was like what was so magic was being in a in a moment where I knew like my friend Tim actually does not know anything about Shakespeare. And yet if I say to him, yeah, you're a famous Shakespearean actor, he will immediately pretend to be a Shakespearean actor and he'll say everything wrong.

13:51Chris Duffy: And we will just agree that that is correct. And the audience will laugh because it's so obvious how he does not know Shakespeare. And yet he's going for it because we're all going to make him look good on that. Like that is the joy, I think. Yeah, it is really nice to be in a supportive context. I remember going back to my college improv team reunion show. And there are a bunch of folks there who I had improvised with when I was a freshman and they were seniors. so I really only did improv with them for one year and they were now this was 10 years after I graduated so it was everybody was full adults and I haven't seen people yet in a long time and it was that thing of like you kind of expect oh it's that person then you're kind of hanging out and you're like oh we actually don't know each other that well at all because I haven't talked to you in 10 years and then we did the show it kind of felt like no time had passed just so weird because it was like oh yeah I actually didn't know these people in this like social way that much I wasn't like hanging out with them every weekend necessarily but I knew them in this playful way the way i knew them is this like language of communication that we have as we're improvising together there is that weird kind of connection where you're like oh yeah i just feel like we're like on the same wavelength at this point and i also think it's a feeling you can get in a really like long-term relationship whether that is you know a romantic relationship or a friend relationship but improv i think especially the way that you teach it it can be a way to it's a shortcut to get there you can get that kind of emotional intimacy and that safety with people in a much shorter amount of time, which is why I think a lot of people do really value this in like a corporate or work setting or universities, because you want to have that closeness, but you don't have, you know, 10 years of hanging out to get to that place.

15:24I do think it is helpful in all the ways that we're talking about, but it's not like you go in the room being like the entire point of everything we're doing is to be more confident or to be a better doctor or to have friends or whatever. Yeah. It's kind of like you learn and grow through the act of like trying to develop a craft and like trying to like do this task together like a lot of people i know who i feel like are really um i don't know i admire or mature in these ways i do think like in a weird way sometimes a lot of them kind of found themselves through the act of doing a thing that wasn't the purpose of it wasn't to like fix them or make them something better or whatever it was just kind of like they got really into like rock climbing or they got super into like um playing the piano or whatever it is and then in each one of these like skills or whatever if you apply yourself to it it's it has like different lessons to teach you you know like like learning an immune system it takes a kind of dedication and like like a commitment to practice that um for example improv does not require you know so yeah like rock climbing requires a little bit like facing like physical fears in a way that like improv is scary but not

16:21Chris Duffy: like i'm gonna fall off the rock way and yet many people do feel that i think a lot of people feel that like visceral physical fear of like i'm gonna be in front of people performing being silly like that is i think a lot of people fear that more than falling off the rock but you kind of know that you're actually not going to die when you are rock climbing you you might actually yeah i guess that's true so it's like i think each one of these things like it's like pulling different parts of a potential version of you kind of out like your current personality is like interacting with this like craft or skill or game or sport or activity and like having that right angle on it versus you know when i have students who are like for example they're like really obsessed with getting good it's actually really unfun energy to perform with like i just want to do it right you know and it's kind of like yeah this is cool i'm gonna you know keep doing it and see how it goes like that actually turns into building a lot of skills pretty quickly um so there's something kind of nice about it that like we have this group task and the actual focus is not on like what i'm getting out of this what i'm what i'm supposed to be doing it's all on helping the group helping the moment helping the scene being present so that it can be successful kind of requires just forgetting yourself in it, which I think is like a really, one of the active ingredients on like why this thing is fun and also like meaningful in a way that doesn't feel like disposable.

17:33Chris Duffy: We're gonna take a quick break and then we will be right back.

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20:50Chris Duffy: Or they say something that is unusual but is true to what they're feeling. And that gets this huge laugh and it's so fun to play with them because they're unexpected but they're also genuine. And that's something that doesn't really work in other contexts. But I think in real life, we love that, too. Right. Like you walk into a room and it smells really bad and a bunch of people are pretending like it doesn't smell bad. And then someone just goes, it smells horrible in here. That person calling out the reality of it is often the person where you're like, OK, at least that one person is real. And I think in an improv scene, that's often the funniest thing that a person can do is just to say exactly what is happening.

21:23Oh, totally. Yeah. I'm remembering a guy who used to perform at the theater who was like, he was like one of the worst actors I'd ever seen in my entire life. But he had this incredible stage charm. He was just like one of these guys that his action personality lacked that like, sensor. He was just like, it never occurred to him to not say exactly what popped into his brain, even if there was no possible way to justify or explain why that is. And so it's like, on paper, he would be like making the wrong choice, but it always felt joyful and fun. And it was so fun to play with because you knew it was like authentic and genuine versus someone who's kind of like you probably talk a lot about like the ass and right like how can i build up this idea so it's like sometimes someone will start a scene and they're like dad i have to go to the potty the other person's like son you're 35 and it gets the kind of cheap laugh where it's kind of like that laugh kind of comes at the expense of your partner like you know they don't think they're 35 right yeah yeah um what really matters actually is not whether we get the um ideas right it's that we're trying to do it so it's kind of like what was my honest read on your thing and if i get it wrong that actually still feels really fun and joyful you know people talk

22:22Chris Duffy: about yes and is like we agree and then we build but i think there's this other piece in exactly what you said right someone starts a scene and they say uh i have to go to the potty daddy and then the person says son you're 35 the reason denying what that person said it it doesn't work like on a technical comedic level it gets this cheap laugh and doesn't keep going but the thing that i've it took me a long time to put my finger on is one of the things that is so beautiful about improv is like, I walk on stage and I am not my physical form. I am not like a white dad in his late thirties, right?

22:53Chris Duffy: I could be anything. I could be a giant red balloon. I could be, uh, I could be a gumball machine. I could be a spaceship. I could be a tiny little squirrel. I could be, um, uh, a woman from 1835, right? Like I could be anything. And so what you have to do as your, as the partner is to pay attention to how that person is defining themselves. And if you don't and you just put a definition on them that is not true to what they've said in the scene it's you kind of like putting your preconceptions on them and and you see this a lot of times where people like won't let for example like a female improviser they won't let them play a male character and it's like well that is you bringing all your own crap into the scene rather than actually existing in the scene and i think that's like that's where the beauty is is like actually just seeing the person as what they are claiming to be and defining themselves as rather than your idea of who they have to be.

23:46You know, if I have students in their 60s and 70s, like, you know, sometimes they'll come out and be like, nice kickflip. And the other person's like, thanks, grandpa. And it's like, I don't think he thought he was your grandpa. You know, people who are 24, like only, they maybe don't have a bunch of friends who are 75. So they're only associated with like, you're my grandpa, right? And it's like, it's that cool way of seeing kind of beyond each other. Like, let's take the thing of, I need to go to the potty, son, you're 35, right? So if you do it the opposite way, where it's like, dad, I need to go to the potty, right?

24:14good improvises are just getting as much possible information as out of it as can so not only did i tell you that you're my dad but i think i probably pretty strongly implied that we are not at home right because if they can use the potty like they could maybe go by themselves at some point you know or whatever like they but there's also something in the tone of voice it's like i kind of need your help whatever so you know if we're at home i do need you like help me i'm not able to like go by myself kind of thing you actually already have narrowed the frame in a subtle way But if you're ignoring all that to get this joke, you actually don't pick up on any of those potential information.

24:44So you, like, lose it. And if you really think about what you're doing there on a cognitive level, you're kind of thinking, what do I think you think is true about the scene? And because this is a fictional world, I'm essentially asking myself, how are you seeing the world? It's kind of like the literal definition of empathy, right? It's like trying to see the world from someone else's eyes. And I do think that's kind of, like, why that thing works is I have to do this perspective taking in order to not just understand what did you say or do, But like what was not where are you going with it? Because there is no we're not in control of that.

25:14But like given all of the clues I have, what do I think you think is happening right now? Right.

25:18Chris Duffy: I actually do buy into why so many like business people or leaders or, you know, people in stressful situations take improv workshops. It's for exactly that. Right. Because how do you not bring your own ideas about what this person is telling you, but instead really hear what someone is saying and get all the information out of it to not put them in a box, but rather to actually like hear what's in the moment is a really incredibly and super valuable skill for a leader. I did a workshop with a bunch of physicians recently and we ended up having this really interesting conversation about the difference between yeah and yeah.

25:52So like, it's like, okay, does it hurt if I do this? Yeah. Does it hurt if I do this? Yeah. They're different, right? Like one is like eight and the other is like 6.5 or whatever, right? But it's all in the tone. And I think like, my understanding is that a lot of doctors get trained kind of like how sales people get trained sometimes where it's like here's the like the things you're going to say and then depending on what they answer you're going to go down this pathway or this pathway where it's like i'm asking you these 12 questions right in a row and so i might hear the actual answers you give but if i'm in my head thinking about what the next question is i now may be missing some of the like little human things which which is ultimately like i sometimes want to go to the doctor i don't just want like information about what do what is wrong with me but i want someone to like um tell me that i'm going to be okay.

26:35You know what I mean? Which is like an emotional need that is not a medical one. And you're not going to pick up on that in the symptoms that I present. You're going to pick up on that and like noticing my body language and my facial expressions and my tone of voice.

26:45Chris Duffy: So you walk into a room full of doctors and you are there to lead an improv workshop. What's an exercise that you do with them that you feel like unlocks something inside of them? A lot of what we start with is just warming up, do a little name game, get to know each other, have a little fun some group exercises just so people can feel like oh this is actually not so hard and we're doing it um there's a yes and exercise that i often use in these workshops at companies um and in level one in prep class it's called alabine do you remember this game i don't know remind me okay it's great so the setup is like i'm the facilitator i am uh a parent and then we get two people up and they are my teenage children who are siblings and so the setup is that like they're coming home late past their curfew and what they've really been doing is they were at a party um but uh i will ground them that's not a good reason to be late right so instead the two teenagers have to come up with a lie on the spot about why they're late if they contradict each other that's when i know that they're lying but if they support each other then then they might get out of trouble so if i'm like why are you late and the person was like oh we got stuck in traffic but then the other person was like no we didn't we were swallowed by a whale okay you know but it was like oh we got stuck in traffic yeah um there was a big event to the aquarium yeah they brought they they're having a a blue whale it's the first time ever a blue captivity etc etc so now we're like riffing off of each other the context is very intuitive that we are on the same team and it's not i'm not trying to win this game we both succeed by making each other look good okay and then what about muscle building exercises that people do i mean well i'll tell you one that i i think of a lot which is like seven things so it's just naming seven things in the category and i think of that as just a great way of getting out of the idea of right and wrong right but you give someone a category they name as fast as they can so um uh chris um seven uh winter olympic sports okay um ready yeah skiing one sledding two bobsledding three ice skating four ice skating with jumping five ice skating with falling six um rocket launching seven yeah and cereal okay hey yeah great and then you you did the thing too which is like okay now do a version where like explicitly you have to be wrong so i'm gonna give you a category and it's only incorrect answers oh great okay let's do that that's fun seven made up incorrect breakfast cereals okay um sardine trans one um king cobra two sharp edges three uh square buttons four taco littles five giant squares six uh tree balls Seven.

29:27Amazing. Okay. And then if this is a group of people who've done some in-bub before, I often play that game. And when people say the answers that are wrong, even experience surprises, you can see their face going like, this is so stupid. Like, sharp edges. What am I saying? But then I'm like, okay, now just do some scenes with that as the start. Where it's like, so what brings you to the doctor today? I think I had too many sharp edges. I had a bowl this morning. It's not going down well. It's like when you're saying the wrong answer, your brain still kind of goes like, ah. And then if someone else just takes that and is like, actually, I love that.

29:58I think that's brilliant. I want to watch the Olympic sport that's skating with jumps. It's not figure skating. It's speed skating with jumps. It's like ice hurdles, you know? Yeah. Like taking the wrong thing and like figuring out, well, why could that be great? It's like such a good creative muscle. And that's where a lot of like actual solutions come from. It's not like when I'm running brainstorm sessions, it's exceedingly rare that the favorite idea by the end of the session started as someone saying something very safe. and bland and ass covering. And then people riff that into innovativeness.

30:30Instead, it starts as someone saying something that is stupid, that is not practical and is maybe even actually literally a joke. And then it's, but it's got this kernel to it. And then someone's like, yeah, we can't do that. But like, oh, what about that with this way? You know, and you're actually like working it into practicality, right?

30:44Chris Duffy: I think if there's some reason why it can't be the obvious answer or like the 10 % close to the obvious answer isn't right. That's where people struggle because even for me, right, just there, like couldn't be lower stakes. It is uncomfortable to say things that are wrong and different and weird. And I love that that game just like builds the muscle of it where in the lowest stakes way, it's just like, okay, I'm just, I have to say something. The only unacceptable answer is nothing. The only thing that is not right is if I stop and wait until I can think of something that is quote unquote correct.

31:16That's the only way to be wrong. It's about trying to get the right answer together. You know, like I'm trying to read your reality and like being wrong is fun and fine if if i'm generally doing it i was um it's having a class this summer and this um i don't know kind of a middle-aged american guy i think i can't remember now someone started a scene and was like you know basically doing speed you know the movie and they were like i can't drive the bus below 50 miles an hour it's going to explode and the other person i think it just moved from like taiwan or singapore like they've been in the country like three months they were 23 they have not seen the 90s action movie speed oh they were just like slow down you're hurting my tummy you know it was like it was such a much funnier scene being like there is no bomb actually it's just like the bus driver is crazy and he's making everybody like car sick and it was like oh yeah we met in this like middle space between both people's associations so it's like it's actually not even knowing the reference it's just like i'm taking the text of what you gave me i'm making my best interpretation of it and actually like both people had more fun in the new third scene that was created out of both of their ideas then either one of them would have had if the scene had just gone exactly like each of them was expected does make sense i think that's like why we're trying to why do we get together to be creative why do we do brainstorm sessions with people why do we like riff it's because there's this kind of like um i don't have a weird metaphor but like it's like a gene pool of ideas like if it's just me riffing myself it's like i'm not getting enough like genetic diversity you know in the gene pool um it's like zoos got to trade their animals with like the other zoos right it's like you have different experiences as I do.

32:43And you have slightly different associations or very different associations than I do. And that's not a weakness. That's a strength. So when I say something, you're going to have this slightly different association to it. And then your response is not going to be what I was expecting and vice versa.

32:55Chris Duffy: You've taught a lot of people for many years. Have you ever done a private improv lesson? Like for one person? Is that even possible? What would it be like? If people are determined to pay me to do it, I will be grumpy and gently do it. Like sometimes I'll do um public speaking training for like executive folks and I'm always trying to get them to do a small group with a couple of their colleagues and like the higher people up are the more nervous they are about that um because it's so much more fun but it like opens up the kinds of exercises you can do and then it feels like okay it's not just one person and then me like hey try this it's like the two or three of us you need someone to play with you know in a lot of these exercises like it's kind of involved in balancing out the other person and a lot of the benefits that we were talking about earlier, I think come from that bowling alley, um, bumper gutter thing.

33:41So it's kind of like, if the goal is to like build your creativity and confidence, I think actually doing that by yourself might seem less scary, but it's ultimately like less, um, less impactful than having at least one other person there who you have to like trust and like put yourself out there for, cause then they are the bumper that helps and you're their bumper. Like you're both kind of nudging each other back on the lane in these nice ways.

34:01Chris Duffy: Because of this podcast and because of the book that I wrote, I I've interviewed several therapists and psychologists who study anxiety. And one of the things that they all talked about that feels really related here is how one of the most effective treatments for people who are anxious is to just have them test the thing that they're afraid of against reality, right? Like, you're afraid that if you go out in the street, something terrible will happen. So let's go out in the street for five minutes. Just see, like you're walking on the sidewalk, did something terrible happen. No. Okay. Maybe that means that like, it's a valid fear, but it's not a guaranteed thing that is going to happen.

34:38And I think the reason why speaking and playing in a group of

34:44Chris Duffy: people is so helpful is I think it does take that fear that people have of like, I need to prepare all alone because otherwise things are going to be disastrous when people hear me speak in public to just go like, let's do it. Let's have a disaster in front of some people and see how bad it is. And it ends up not being bad at all. It ends up being fun. I mean, I wonder if this is, you're not always interviewing people who do a thing that you also are. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Chris is also very humble. He's also extremely good at improv and knows a ton about it. Like what is Chris before doing improv or comedy or performing?

35:14And like now, like, can you really feel this like phase shift of like the way it's kind of like shaped you?

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37:12Chris Duffy: Spectrum Business delivers fast, reliable internet, phone, TV, and mobile services, so you're always connected when it matters most. Get connectivity packages built for your business, with savings that keep your budget in check. And with fast, reliable internet, and 100 % U.S.-based customer support, you'll stay connected and ready to bring your vision to life. Learn more at spectrum.com slash business. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. it's a great question i mean my honest answer is that i think so much of who i am is because of doing improv and comedy and i started doing it when i was young so i wasn't like a fully formed person yet you know i was like in college and still figuring out who i was so it's hard for me to say like this is who i was before because i think the formation of who i am it's kind of tied to it but i think the biggest thing was realizing that the best thing i could do if I wanted to look good was to not make myself look good, but to make the people that I was there with look good.

38:16Chris Duffy: Like that, that was the secret trick is you want everyone to enjoy the show. Don't make it. So you're the best person in the show, make it. So the other person on stage is the best person in the show. And then they're trying to do the same thing. And through that, you all look great. I think that was a really big lesson. Cause I think that's counterintuitive to how I'm wired, where I would like to be regarded as the best person in the show. You know, I'm like, But what if I did this? And then realizing that that actually was always the way to backfire and make yourself look bad is to, you know, try and steal the joke rather than give the joke away.

38:44Chris Duffy: And I mean, not like steal the joke, like steal like a written joke, but like steal the punchline, steal the laugh rather than like give the laugh to your partner. It's a thing of like, am I worried about like how I'm looking? You know, it's just it's not a comfortable space. And it is more fun, actually, like long term. It is more enjoyable and fun to try to make other people succeed. Yeah. Because the kinds of things that you all can do as a group when everyone is playing that way far far outpace what you can do if everybody is out there trying to get their own individual laughs and make themselves look good it's like a basketball team where like everybody's shooting the second they get the ball it's like you're not gonna play very well you need people to like cut and drive and set picks and hustle on defense and like it's funny watching the all-star game in like every sport because it sucks so much it's like all the best people and like they don't know how to play with each other so like everyone has like maxed up their skill levels but like you kind of need some guy who like doesn't make you know um the all-star salary whose only job is to like just harass people on defense at the three-point line or whatever right like these pieces all have to fit together in some way and in improv it's not like you have this designated role but it's kind of like we're all trying to like be whatever the show needs that night kind of across the board any successful creative person i've talked to um or no will tell you that one of the biggest differences between like when they actually became successful and before when they had this idea of what it meant to be a musician or a writer or a comedian or whatever it is that they do, an artist.

40:08Chris Duffy: One of the most consistent things that I really just feel like everyone experiences is I thought this was a thing that you do alone or you do just with your little group, like your little band. And then they realized that success is actually being part of a scene, is actually being like supported and challenged and inspired by other people. And so even in the fields that are like, Like a novelist is not a team sport. And yet it is such an unbelievably rare novelist whose work is not the product of their relationships and their creative partnerships and the people who inspire them. And so that thing of like together we are smarter than we could ever be alone.

40:47Chris Duffy: I think Brian Eno is the one who coined this term, scenius, like not genius, but scenius. It's the genius of the scene. And I think that is such a profound creative truth. I was just talking to someone about music that like pre-internet, any non-commercial genre was hyper geographically focused. Like remember like all the grunge bands came out of Seattle, right? And like most of the 80s thrash metal bands were like from San Francisco. I'm a metalhead, so this is most of my like knowledge, but like um like of the like top 10 like seminal 80s death metal bands like all 10 of them are either from tampa bay florida or birmingham england like it's so random because it's kind of like you could not hear like guttural death metal on the radio like you could only see it at a show or someone played it for you so it was like there was a band in tampa bay and like they were they figured the thing out and then people watched and they were like let's try something like that and they were all it was this kind of collective thing and like when you go to write a novel you sit down by yourself but you are also like in conversation with like all of the books that you could have ever read and all of the knowledge that's been passed to you and all of your experiences all kind of rattling around in there and yeah it is like being able to see and watch people do it is itself kind of part of the the seniors and like part of the conversation about it okay before we go is there another exercise or improv activity that you like that um we could do with just two just the two of us uh do we do a little fortunately unfortunately there's like a really simple one that will play pretty well on audio or video.

42:13Great.

42:13Chris Duffy: Yeah, explain it. Okay. This is like a warm-up game. It's not too deep of a game, but it's really just simple, fun warm-up for the managing uncertainty thing. So this is a game that anybody can do. They don't have to practice or done improv. So feel free to play this at home. We're going to make a story together, and we're going to build it one sentence at a time. So I'll give the first sentence, and then every other sentence after that is going to alternate, either beginning with the phrase fortunately or unfortunately. So if I said, I went to the pet store to get a puppy then the next then you would say like unfortunately the pet store only had lizards and then i would say like fortunately i'm a huge lizard fan yeah yeah yeah unfortunately the only lizard left was a komodo dragon fortunately i've got a huge yard etc etc would you like to be fortunately or unfortunately um i'll be fortunately so i'll start with a bit of a negative news um i uh i was walking to the train and i tripped um on the curb fortunately you're going to get a huge class action settlement.

43:10Yeah. Unfortunately, I just can't stand lawyers. I really don't have it in me to just deal with being in court. Fortunately, your lawyer also hates other lawyers. Yeah. Unfortunately, my lawyer is my ex, and it's just been real intense filing the paperwork.

43:29Chris Duffy: Fortunately, this presents an incredible opportunity for you to sort through all of the issues that drove you apart in your relationship. Unfortunately, I'm also remembering why we broke up. Fortunately, she's really starting to see that you weren't as bad as she had made you out to be. Unfortunately, she's already fallen in manly love with Dale, who's her new partner. Fortunately, Dale seems like a cool guy. Unfortunately, he doesn't like me at all. Fortunately, Dale is teaching you about setting clear boundaries, a lesson you needed to learn? Unfortunately, I am a slow learner. Awesome, great.

44:12Yay! It's a super silly game. And it's like fun in that it always goes a direction that is literally impossible to predict from the first sentence. I did this a while ago. And the first sentence was, I'm walking into, you're walking into a restaurant for a first date. And then very, it's a group of like 20 people. And the very first person said, unfortunately, I had a heart attack and died in the restaurant. and I could feel the whole group go like well what are we gonna do now and the next person was like fortunately I became a ghost a friendly ghost who haunted the restaurant and helped people have good dates and this whole story became about like how we were like helping other people on their dates as a ghost and it was like the thing that feels like you've quote unquote like ruined it or like that's a mistake actually turns out sometimes to be the best part of the idea that is the memorable

44:54Chris Duffy: portion of it I love that the thing that you think is the disaster might turn out to be the greatest gift of all well Rick Andrews thank you so much for being on the podcast it's always a pleasure to talk to you and this was no exception. Thanks, man. And can I say, I'm sure listeners who don't know you might wonder, gosh, he seems like a really nice guy, but you know, sometimes in real life, people are actually jerks. And I just want to confirm for everybody that Chris is the actual nicest person. One of the nicest people I know on the planet Earth. Oh, that's so nice. I thought you were going to go for the cheap punchline and say he's a monster, but I appreciate that you didn't.

45:20No, like you're so lovely and everybody who knows you feels the same way. Thanks, man. Thank you so much for having me on. I appreciate it.

45:28Chris Duffy: That is it for today's episode of How to Be a Better Human. Thank you so much to our guest, Rick Andrews. You can find him online at rickandrewsimprov.com. I am your host, Chris Duffy, and my new book, Humor Me, is out now. You can find out more about my book and all my other projects at chrisduffycomedy.com. How to Be a Better Human is put together by a group of Zip Zap Zops. On the TED side, I'm getting yes-ended by Danielle of Alarezzo, Ban Ban Chang, Michelle Quint, Chloe Sha-Sha Brooks, Valentina Bohanini, Lainey Lott, Tanzika Soong Manivong, Antonio Le, and Joseph Debrine. Ryan Lash edits the video and picks the perfect moment to black out each scene.

46:01Chris Duffy: And Mateus Salas checks the facts to make sure we are not inventing our sources or statistics. On the PRX side, there are the Herald Knight of Audio, Morgan Flannery, Norgil, Patrick Grant, and Jocelyn Gonzalez. Thanks to you for listening. You are the best scene partner I could ever ask for. Please send this episode to someone who you think would enjoy it, someone who has your back. We will be back next week with even more How to Be a Better Human. Until then, don't make any plans. Just improvise.

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