AJ Odudu - ‘Living to tell the tale is the joyful thing’

0:00This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Checking off the boxes on your to-do list is a great feeling. And when it comes to checking off coverage, a State Farm agent can help you choose an option that's right for you. Whether you prefer talking in person, on the phone, or using the award-winning app, it's nice knowing you have help finding coverage that best fits your needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

0:35Hello and welcome to How To Fail with me, Elizabeth Day. In my podcast, we look at and celebrate our unique individual failures because ultimately they're the stepping stones to success. Every week, I invite a guest to look at their failures and what has come afterwards that might have helped them grow and succeed. And please do join me where I continue my conversation with AJ Odudu on my subscriber series, Failing With Friends. Every week, I'll be looking at your failures or questions with my fabulous guest. This week, AJ and I go through failures from friendship breakdowns to fashion faux pas.

1:12Can't wait for you to join us.

1:17My guest today is a woman who is rapidly becoming one of the most familiar faces on our television screens. Whether it's executing a near-perfect Charleston on Strictly Come Dancing, she made it to the final three in 2021 before tearing a ligament the day before the final, or carrying her faltering teammate's backpack up a mountain on SAS Who Dares Wins, the one thing that always comes across clearly is Adudu's extraordinary drive and determination. But she is best known for being the new host of Big Brother. It was a particularly sweet return to the show after she lost her presenting job a decade earlier on Big Brother's bit on the side.

1:59Again, she dusted herself off and came back stronger. This grit arguably has its roots in her upbringing. Adudu grew up in Blackburn, Lancashire, one of eight children raised by Nigerian parents whose marriage was arranged. Her mother was a cleaner, her dad a joiner, And they were, she recalled later, the only black people for miles. We put the black in Blackburn, she joked. A graduate of Keele University who started out in local radio, she was recently awarded an honorary fellowship at the University of Central Lancashire. It's extremely tough to get rejected or told you can't do something for whatever reason, but you have to persevere and remain confident in yourself, Adudu has said.

2:46success is not a sprint it's a struggle and rejection is inevitable but it's worth it in the end AJ welcome to how to fail thank you you don't really move yeah that was you that did all of that I'm like oh my word what's wrong with me no what's right with you because I really wanted to pay tribute to your resilience and your determination because it is something that has struck me again and again watching your career from afar. That celebrity SAS moment, I watched it again in preparation for this interview. Basically what happened is you took Sam Thompson's backpack and your own and walked up this massive mountain carrying 45 kilograms on your back and front and you just pushed on through.

3:36And I know we're getting onto that because it relates to one of your failures. But I wanted to ask you whether you think resilience is something you can learn? Is it a muscle that you can flex? I really do think so because I feel like one of my strengths now is my ability to be able to dust myself off and carry on. But I've learned that having received so much rejection, so many knockbacks, so much pain, and actually just the knowledge that I can always rebuild and come back stronger builds a sense of confidence and a sense of resilience that will hopefully remain unshakable. The premise of this podcast is obviously how we fail actually teaches us so much about what to do next.

4:29And one of the things I realised coming towards the end of my 30s was it had been such an intense decade and there'd been many failures along the way and many heartbreaks and many patches of feeling like I was the worst person in the world and where would I go next but looking back I realised I'd survived each one and that gave me strength and it sounds like you're saying exactly the same thing. Yeah exactly I always say oh my gosh that was awful it was so stressful it was pants but we live to tell the tale and living to tell the tale is the joyful thing that's the fun side that shows that you've walked towards that light at the end of the dark tunnel and and you've somehow found some sort of solace one of my good friends once said to me the best revenge is living well how did it feel presenting big brother presenting big brother on itv and itv2 the launch the reboot just felt one of the proudest moments of my life genuinely because I know how I felt back in 2013 when I didn't get asked to come back for the next series.

5:39I know how rock bottom I was. The heavy weight that I felt every single day. I know how hard it was. Yeah. So to come back and smash it and actually have fun and do it alongside my friend and the most amazing team and I just was really proud of myself. I'm really proud of you and I've only just met you properly and I think part of the reason is that you there's an honesty to you that is so moving and accessible like you connect with people beyond the screen because you're really honest about who you are and I love the fact that you claimed your power and were honest about how that rejection felt you've spoken about it in the past and when you lost that job or when you weren't asked back there was no feedback given so that must have been really difficult because you didn't know was that uncertainty hard to handle I feel like the industry actually does still to this day have a tendency to do that you know people will go for auditions you'll have a meeting you'll hear nothing back you don't know why you've got this radio silence one minute everything is good the next minute it's not it's very uncertain and it's very confusing and especially for someone like me who likes honesty I've grown up with the most brutally honest family yeah and you went back home then didn't you you went you like slept on your dad's sofa you worked in a call center and then ultimately you retrained as a personal trainer and nutritionist again props to you for working your way through that and I mentioned in the introduction that my perception is that so much of that grit and that work ethic comes from your childhood do you think that's fair?

7:28100 % and being like oh I've been on tv now like surely I can't go back to the call center and my mum's saying no one should ever feel embarrassed to earn an honest living No matter what the job is, you could be emptying bins. Like, it doesn't matter. You're providing, like, you're trying to do something. And there's no shame in that. One minute we was on live television, and the next minute we're back in the call centre. We're hustling away. We're trying to rebuild our confidence in a completely different field. And that's when I, yeah, went into personal training. What were you selling at the call centre?

8:06I was selling, do you know, Witch, the consumer magazine. Yes, love Witch. I was upselling Rich magazine and you could get three magazines. And if you ordered Rich gardening as well, you would also get some free tomato seeds as well. Just for three pounds as opposed to the one pound. I mean, it was an absolute bargain. But I'd always have to read out this legal verbatim. I was terrible at it. And most people in the call centre would just like rush through it. But I would slowly read it and make sure everybody fully understood that if they forgot to unsubscribe, it would jump from£3 to£12.99 each month, which for some people is so expensive.

8:48I was like, one minute you think that you've got a three quid bargain, next minute you're being absolutely shafted. I just wanted everyone to be clear. I often convince people, oh gosh, if you're not going to remember to cancel it, and you can't afford it, don't do it. It's that honesty coming through again, making you a bad call centre employee. I mentioned in the introduction that idea that you put the black into Blackburn, which is such a great one-liner you came up with. But what was that like, really? What was school like for you? It was interesting because actually, honestly, I always really enjoyed school, like thoroughly.

9:25However, from teachers, from other pupils as well, like you are noticeably different from the get-go. I remember in nursery for example my mum coming into nursery teaching the nursery teacher how to pronounce my name and she spelt it out phonetically she's like it's on a tager roll and then next thing I know my mum walks out and I'm called AJ and I was like what like they they was like oh it's just too hard and then on the playground it's like why is your hair like that why is your skin like that The questions, the curiosity, it was always like I stood out the most. And even my voice, you know, my accent's always been this thing throughout my career, even now.

10:13But at school, I had this deeper voice, this more distinctive voice from such an early age. I had this stammer in nursery. It was just constantly like, oh my gosh, this is quite tricky. And Blackburn, which lacks in its diversity, I was born into a very white area and the church that I went to was white, you know, an all white congregation. The school that I went to was all white. I only really saw myself or my younger sister. We were the only ones who looked like us. And yeah, that was that was really tough at times. do you think I didn't know that about AJ about that that being the reason that that name came about yeah but I I really admire the way that you've made that your thing yeah do you think you've sort of your way of dealing with that was okay well I'm really going to embrace what you think makes me different and I'm going to show you that this is a fabulous way to be yeah I don't think I really gave it much thought at the at the time to be honest I was just called AJ like that that was that I but I do remember like when I got to year five we moved house and so I changed school and I remember being quite excited about that because I thought oh it's a good chance to rebrand no one in this school knows me I'm a little bit older now I can stand up for myself and I will insist that everyone calls me Agerow, which they did for year five, year six.

11:51Everyone at that school called me Agerow. But then we know it's a secondary school and the feeder schools all go to the secondary school. So people from my first school, St. Anne's, would meet people from my second school, St. Albans, and then say, oh, you went to that school. Oh, so you must know AJ. You must know AJ Doodoo. and they're like oh no I don't know anyone called AJ I know I know an AJ well but I don't know an AJ and they're like there's literally one black girl in Blackburn so it must be we must be talking about the same person and then everyone who had called me AJ well started saying oh it's so much easier to call you AJ so we're just going to do that and I was like oh gosh I'm back to square one but honestly I remember making it I do remember when I made it my thing almost was when I was in London when I went to a job interview they thought it was going to be a male person walking in and they saw this female tottering through the door and I kind of loved it I was like oh you thought you was going to get one thing you've got another I liked the element of surprise and so actually I was like yeah I'm here for it defying expectations I love it

13:05I'm Christian McCaffrey pro running back and Abercrombie is an official fashion partner of the NFL. I'm not kidding when I say NFL by Abercrombie broke the internet last year. And I think this season's lineup is even cooler. And so does my wife, who keeps stealing all my hoodies. Stay fit for the season and Abercrombie's newest arrivals. Shop NFL by Abercrombie in the app, online, and in store.

13:36When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans, send event invites and pin messages so no one forgets mom's 60th, and never miss a meme or milestone. All protected with end-to-end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp. Message privately with everyone. Learn more at whatsapp.com.

14:07your first failure is your inability to say no explain to us where that stems from do you think i mean honestly i don't know i just feel like i'm a resilient person i'm a trier i never want to give up. It's this sense of, if I give up, if I didn't try my absolute, absolute hardest, then I failed. I've not put my best foot forward. And that is the failure that I won't be able to deal with. I can deal with coming second or last even or whatever, but only with the knowledge that I've given it absolutely everything. So it's not about people pleasing or anything like that, But it's about trying and I will not say no to the most extreme, ridiculous things.

15:02And where I feel that that has become a bit of a failure for me is my lack of ability to identify when I'm at my limit. It used to be something that was almost celebrated, you know, like I'm the person who can work out until I throw up. So it's just a bit funny at the time, but actually, you know, when you are climbing a mountain and you're like, I'm feeling a bit faint, but I'm just going to get to the top. And then you collapse at the top of the mountain. Or when you are dancing so hard that you snap a ligament, you do go, oh, my gosh, I could really hurt myself here if I don't figure this out.

15:42It's good to try hard, I think still. But I also think when I don't understand my limits, that's where it can get a bit dangerous sometimes. And that's what I'm still trying to figure out. So those two examples that you cite are things that have actually happened to you. So the first one is the celebrity SAS Who Dares Wins, where, as I mentioned earlier, you took your backpack and Sam Thompson's all the way up a mountain and you didn't collapse at the top of the mountain. You came all the way back down. Then you did some cold water swimming. Then you just got to the stage where you're like, you needed to be dragged out of the canal or wherever you were swimming.

16:18And it's actually quite a terrifying thing to watch. we watch you your eyes roll back in your head and you collapse and you faint what was that like to go through because for the rest of us it's just like a reality tv program but for you that's like very intense it's so interesting as well because there's a whole team of people who are like just stop like just you're allowed to stop it's fine and i'm like no oh, no, I'm fine. You know, in my mind, I will always, I've got this really high pain threshold. I can really endure some tough things until I'm not. And then I go, oh, actually, yeah, maybe I wasn't fine.

16:59And gosh, that was a bit of a touching go. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I do. And I want to get back to that. But then I just want to talk to you about Strictly Come Dancing. So the day before the final, you've made it to the final three, you're scoring amazingly across the board and you tear a ligament in your ankle that must have been so upsetting it was yeah so distressing because actually it was a couple of days before the the final but actually it was undiagnosed as like this ligament tear so i just knew that i'd hurt myself i knew that like i'd had this acute pain that literally made me projectile vomit on the spot.

17:39That's how sharp the pain was. I couldn't put an ounce of weight on my toe. I literally could not stand up. But yet I was every single waking day. I was like, well, it's fine. I still went to rehearsals. I still watched my dance partner dance with another professional dancer and was like, it's fine. I'm going to like learn the routine. I'm going to like watch the steps and I am going to be ready for the final. I'm going to figure it out. I am going to be injected with all of the steroids. I was having fluid drained out of my foot. I was having scans. I was having ultrasounds on my foot. I was elevating my foot and having ice compressions whilst also watching my dance steps and doing television interviews.

18:27And I was doing all of those things, hobbling around on a crutch going, no, I don't need anything. I'm going to be fine. And then I'm now in a moon boot and then speaking to the team, but strictly saying, do you think we could do an iconic dance where I am in a moon boot? Like I literally was begging. What do you think you were trying to prove? Because I'm guessing looking back, this was before you got the Big Brother gig. Yeah. So do you think maybe you were still trying to prove something to someone, to yourself? Like I can do this. I am worthy of your attention and your recognition. maybe I don't know where it comes from honestly but I still to this day I'm always fighting to like pull it back I'm like okay you've got to calm down it's so interesting this failure because on the one level you're clearly almost a professional athlete like you're you go into beast mode and you can push your body to extremes that most of us couldn't and on the other side there's like actually you're worth looking after it's almost like you struggle to think that you AJ are worth love and care and attention from yourself and then there's a whole other aspect which is like drive and being grateful for what you have and therefore wanting to take it to that level that you know you can achieve and it's a fascinating mix but do you think you've got better at knowing when to stop at like being kinder to yourself I suppose that's what I'm getting at have you got better at being kinder to yourself yeah definitely I mean I still struggle but I definitely do say no to things now I'm happier to receive help more and I'm definitely more able to identify when things are a little bit too much but you know going through physio really taught me that you have to do everything at slug space you have to really slow down you can't just run you can't just jump you have to move one big you know one toe at a time.

20:31Humbling I'd no idea it was that serious final question on this failure do you think you've had to work harder to get where you are than a lot of your peers? Yes I used to be really embarrassed or actually I used to feel very scared to say that. I really do feel like I have to prove myself in a way that my counterparts just don't. And I also feel like I, maybe one of the reasons why I do have this drive and determination and this ability to like push all the time is because I just feel like I'm not allowed to make mistakes in the way that others are and I have to be the ready-made package I have to look good sound good I need to be a game or the opportunity is just not going to be there and that is a tough pill to swallow but it's my pill and I've swallowed it so it is what it is You need to bring your AJ game.

21:41That's what I say. And now my Slay Jay game, my new nickname. Yes, Slay Jay. That's so genius. Oh my gosh, when I saw that in the crowds of people, I was like, why is no one else doing this? This is great. I do think that's something I'm very aware of doing this podcast as someone who is a privileged white woman. There are people who are given multiple opportunities to fail and there are others who are not. And we only have to look at, some might say, the political class in this country to see the kind of people who get multiple opportunities to fail upwards. So I think you have every right to say what you've just said.

22:16And thank you for speaking truthfully about it. Thank you. Your second failure is, I'm so glad you've chosen this. I can relate so much. It's about old exes or relationships haunting you for years. Honestly. They're so difficult to get over. Again, in hindsight, I just look back and think, what a waste of time. Like so much time and energy wasted on people who have betrayed me, not giving me the love that I now feel that I deserve. I'm wasting my attention and energy in tears. How many important romantic relationships have you had? I'd say three. Yeah. Yeah. And I know I'm going to sound like such a creep, but because I saw you on First Dates Hotel.

23:10And there's actually this very moving exchange that you have with your date over how you were cheated on and not only cheated on, but you walked in and found your now ex in the act. And that must be a very traumatic thing to go through. So I feel intrusive asking you about this do you mind talking about it no no what was that like for you discovering you were being cheated on that was so surreal on that day I was actually at my brother's and I'd had the best time but I was also really excited to go back and see my boyfriend we'd made all these plans and I was so excited not answered his phone which I thought was unusual but it's fine like we're together a lot and I've got the keys to his place, so it's all good.

24:04And so to walk in on that, I was stunned. It was like this person had, you know, made out that, you know, they love me, they see their future with me and it was completely reciprocated. You know, we were, in my mind, building towards a positive future together and you know the most nice genuine person and fun to be around and just someone that I just wouldn't ever expect to behave in that way. Seeing that was crazy and then my reaction was quite stoic. I wasn't hysterical, I didn't burst into tears or anything like that. I just felt in that moment I need to gather all the information that I can and I don't want it from him I want it from her actually because weirdly in that moment I trusted her more than I trusted him and I'd never seen her before so I asked her to put her clothes back on and follow me outside and answer all of my questions how long had this been going on and whatever and then as soon as that happened, I watched her leave and then I packed all my stuff and then got a taxi and left.

25:24I literally was like, I'm not, I'm not going to cry in front of this person. This person isn't worth my tears. You know, I don't want to throw a girl out of the window and I don't want to hit him or cry in front of him. I'm not going to show him that side of me. However, I proceeded to have years of tears and years of trauma away from him. It was really weird. I'm so sorry. That is a horrendous thing to go through. And I think it probably makes you question everything, doesn't it? It must make you question your entire judgment. Like I've had experiences in past relationships where someone has broken up with me out of the blue.

26:02And that's been a complete head fuck technical term where I'm like, well, I don't trust my own judgment or opinions of the world anymore. Exactly. That's exactly what it felt like. I immediately took all the blame. It's like that person's done a really horrible thing, yet I was left questioning, like, what have I missed? Like, where have I gone wrong? How have I been so incorrect about this person? It was all on me, essentially, and it was just so annoying. really, you know, now that I've come out of that and thinking, I can't believe I picked myself up about that, like so much. And I even took him back at one point and that again, a massive regret.

26:51But again, now I'm like, no, AJ, he's been really optimistic. He was really, you know, I've always been taught to forgive and give people second chances and, you know, be empathetic and all of that jazz I've always been taught all of those things so again I'm trying not to beat myself up about that too much but I also can't help but think this reason did the best thing to you and then you took him back a few months later just because he said sorry and then actually it was never gonna break because that is beyond it's a it's a betrayal beyond repair the thing that's coming across loud and clear to me is that you're such a high performer in every aspect of your life and if you have a perfectionist trend towards that high performance which I do not athletically like you do but like in other ways um I think I in past relationships put pressure on myself to be perfect in order to ensure that the other person would have no complaints and therefore would never leave and obviously that never worked for me because I wasn't being real but when they do leave you're like but I was trying so hard like I I thought I was so nice like I was doing everything that I thought they wanted me to do and then ultimately I just came to the conclusion well they didn't want that they wanted something different and my survival mechanism was to think well more fool them then it's fine and now I feel very lucky that I'm in a really healthy relationship and I can show up as myself but do you relate to to that aspect of it like just trying to be perfect and then someone seeming to find that wanting yes and no I definitely think I've done that like in the past but actually to be totally honest in my significant relationships where I felt betrayed I've actually felt the most myself actually so I'm like oh wow this relationship's going really well I'm being completely myself he's being completely himself this is great and then when it all goes wrong I'm like oh no how's this happened and what could I have done to avoid that when it comes to cheating and stuff like that sometimes I just think why didn't you just say that you weren't happy and then just go or whatever like why did it have to be done in this way the relationship you're talking about was this 10 years ago it was around the same time as you also lost the channel five big brothers little bit on the side gig so horrendous time in your life horrendous but what would they say when you said why did you cheat and why weren't you just honest i just i'm asking this because i know so many listeners will be finding this incredibly helpful because they would have gone through something similar and they will be thinking if even aj one of the most beautiful talented women that any of us know it goes through this then we can learn from that thank you his response is something like oh it just didn't even mean anything it just was well then why do it like what when you've got something so meaningful yeah I don't I just don't understand and I still don't understand but actually I'm not I don't care to understand now but I guess my biggest regret and that's why I put it as my failure is that it just takes so long to come to that resolution it just takes so long to stop blaming yourself and nitpicking yourself and to and to also let someone else in you know how many blessings have I blocked because I've just been so focused on the past instead of looking forward and you know embracing all of the other beautiful amazing people who've come into my life but I've actually pushed them away because I can't move forward until I've let go of the past that is just how I am well maybe you're doing physio for your romantic relationships right now that's the phase that you're in and you'll come back stronger than ever what actually what phase are you in are you happily single hoping for a relationship do you know what I feel like the more I've been in this industry the more I've just been like it's so amazing to keep pockets of myself to myself and I guess I've been open about my romantic relationships and romantic failures and my romantic vulnerabilities.

31:11I've been really open about them in the past, but I don't care to be as much now. But I definitely am in a really happy place. I'm really, really content in that aspect of my life. That is such an elegant answer. Final question on this. What has your parents' marriage taught you about romantic relationships? I mentioned in the introduction, it was an arranged marriage clearly an incredibly successful and happy one with eight kids but what do you think that's taught you it's just not all rosy it's just not you know I've seen my parents go through so much and obviously I won't speak on their relationship too much because it's their relationship but I feel like we've all grown up with this like you know you know idea that two people fall in love and they just walk hand in hand into the sunset forever and whenever and it just doesn't work out like that.

32:04Sometimes you absolutely hate each other. Sometimes they love each other. You know, I definitely feel like they are two people who can't live with each other, can't live without each other. And I personally think it's a really beautiful thing, but it's taught me that, you know, you work hard at something and there will be love and they do love each other and respect each other in a way that they have really fought for.

32:33At Sierra, discover great deals on top brand workout gear, like high-quality walking shoes, which might lead to another discovery. 40 ,000 steps, baby. Who's on top now, Karen? You've taken the office step challenge a step too far. Don't worry, though. Sierra also has yoga gear. It might be a good place to find your zen. Discover top brands at unexpectedly low prices. Sierra, let's get moving. Race the rudders! Raise the sails! Raise the sails! Captain, an unidentified ship is approaching. Over. Roger. Wait, is that an enterprise sails solution? Reach sails professionals, not professional sailors.

33:13With LinkedIn ads, you can target the right people by industry, job title, and more. Start converting your B2B audience today. Spend$250 on your first campaign and get a free$250 credit for the next one. Get started today at linkedin.com slash campaign. Terms and conditions apply.

33:35Your final failure is biting your nails. Oh, mate, it's so annoying. Have you always bitten your nails? Yeah, for as long as I can remember, I have. My mum said that I didn't really start to bite my nails until after I lost my baby bottle, which I had until quite an old age. So I'd come back from school, actually. I think I had it until the end of nursery or like reception. So it's like five years old. I had my baby bottle until that age. My mum always said that I was that kid who had all of the things. I sucked my thumb. I needed the teddy. I needed a comfort blanket. Everything was managed to be shaken with great struggle eventually.

34:22But the nail biting is the one that has remained with me. all of my life and it's annoying. I've tried and tried and tried again and you know I even saw a therapist about it one time I was like am I stressed out? Is this an anxious trait? Like what is it? But I just think it's a comforting thing. Yeah because there is that idea that sort of automatic assumption that it must be because you're anxious or worried but you don't feel that. No I really don't. So talk me through it because I don't bite my nails but I do have a childhood habit where I used to have this is so embarrassing a little ball of cotton wool that I would stroke my face with and I would stroke my face with it whilst sucking my own tongue which clearly is like a similar thing like there was some degree of comfort and it started as a very young child and although I no longer have the cotton wool I mean but I had it for years like way beyond five by the way until I was about 11 but I sometimes do it with clothes oh still with Yeah.

35:22And it's sort of soothing and relaxing. So is that the equivalent of biting your nails? You just will do it while you're watching TV or something. Yeah. Honestly, it's so subconscious. I don't even really notice that I'm doing it. But I do. I have tried because I also do like having nice, well-kept hands. I think it's very important. I think it's good manners to have like clean, nice nails and hands when you shake someone's hand or when you greet someone and all of that jazz so I can assure you that I've not had my fingers in my mouth right now and what have you done to try and stop it so the therapy was that sort of talking therapy or hypnotherapy it was a talking therapy which I thought was hypnotherapy but it just felt like therapy I was like very confused I was like what but I'd been recommended this woman who's helped um a few of my friends stop smoking so I thought well do you know what if she can help people stop smoking she can definitely cure me from biting me nails and yeah no she flops she failed i was like maybe this is her failure not mine yes get her in next week um so yeah i've tried that i've tried nail bite yeah i've tried acrylic and gel nails on so really hard and really tough to get through but i will know them down it's so weird i've tried putting plasters on the ends of my fingers you know peculiar looking but I've tried it all and it's just not working so I don't know maybe it should be my new year's resolution again.

36:59I think what I really love about your failures is that you have been so authentic and honest with them you've been genuinely vulnerable and they're not like humble brags in the sense that some people choose failures that paint them in quite a good light ultimately like these are things that you're genuinely working on and that have genuinely been hard to go through. And I really respect you for that. And I'm very grateful. Thank you for respecting the format in this way. I suppose I'd like to draw this to an end. I'm very aware that many listeners will be going through some form of heartbreak or some form of betrayal.