Amy Jackson Westwick - I Was A Magnet For Narcissists

0:00And I think I put so much emphasis on a relationship and I think that blindsided me a lot. Because I do empathize with my younger self, but if I could just get hold of her and say, come on, you've got this, where are your boundaries? I didn't know what that word actually meant. When I look back now, I go, oh Amy, the red flags were on fire. What were you doing? Hello and welcome to How to Fail with me, Elizabeth Day. This is the podcast where we firmly believe that all failure is data acquisition. Before we get into today's conversation, please do remember to like, follow and subscribe. It really, really helps us and it helps other people find us.

0:47And that will also make sure that you never miss a single episode.

0:54Hello, this is Elizabeth Day from the How to Fail podcast. I wanted to share something I'm genuinely excited about. One of my favourite UK wellness brands, Ancient and Brave, has just launched in the US. I've used two of their products in my daily routine and they've made a tangible difference. The first is True Creatine Plus. With added taurine, vitamin D and magnesium, it supports physical performance, energy and cognitive function. It's easy to take at home or on the go, whether I'm working out or not. I also use their clinically studied True Collagen, a pure, potent and powerful staple that supports skin elasticity and hydration, as well as whole body health.

1:38It's EU sourced, so free from growth hormones or antibiotics, plus it's neutral in taste and dissolves effortlessly into coffee or smoothies, or a cup of tea. I would say that as a Brit, wouldn't I? Ancient and Brave are proud members of 1 % for the planet, meaning that 1 % of their sales go to environmental causes, wellness that feels good and does good too. Go to ancientandbrave.com forward slash planet and use the code howtofail. That's howtofail, no spaces, all one word for$10 off any purchase. This episode is brought to you by Fandango. People say fans are too distracted these days. But the truth is, when a great movie hits the screen, you show up.

2:22You stay glued, invested, part of the story. And without fans like you, there'd be no cinema magic, no shared moments. So head to Fandango.com to get tickets, stream, or rent or buy top movies and series. Fandango loves fans. Amy Jackson-Westwick is 34, but seems already to have lived several lifetimes. Born in the Isle of Man, raised in Liverpool, she started modelling aged 14 and ended up winning Miss Teen World in 2009. The Bollywood director ALVJ spotted her and asked her to audition for the lead role in his new period drama. Despite having had no previous acting experience, Jackson Westwick got the role.

3:08She celebrated her 17th birthday on set in India and moved there full-time aged 19. Over 14 years she made a major name for herself in Bollywood, winning critical acclaim and awards and racking up over 20 credits. Having also starred in the CW Supergirl in 2017, she is recognised as one of the UK's most successful crossover actresses from Western to Indian cinema. Alongside her film work, Jackson Westwick is a patron for charities such as the Sneha Saga Orphanage for Girls, Peter and Elephant Family. She was honoured with the UN's International Day of the Girl Child Award in 2018. And she's just launched a podcast, What's the Tea Amy?, full of frank, honest conversations and interviews, including on with her husband, the actor Ed Westwick, with whom she shares a one-year-old baby, Oscar, and her son, Andreas, from a previous relationship.

4:09With some 14 million followers across social media, Jackson Westwick is an example of global fame. And yet, as she said recently, her motivation was never celebrity for its own sake. As she put it, you're not chasing fame, you're chasing security. Amy welcome to How to Fail Thank you so much Elizabeth That was lovely I need that pep talk in the mornings Can I voice note you saying this to me? 100 % I'll voice note it to you You can have it as a ringtone Thank you very much I like that It's always so interesting when guests have that reaction And it's often women who have that reaction Because all I'm doing is stating a series of facts And that's your life And it's an incredible one Amy It really really is Thank you I wanted to ask you before we get into that about that quote, chasing security rather than fame.

5:04How do you feel now? Do you feel secure? For the first time in my life, I do. I actually feel very secure. I think it's been a long time coming. And, you know, we'll get into the failures. But I think those failures at that time, you almost think that you've ruined your life. and it's only with time and you know time is a is a blessing that you realize oh gosh this is how it was supposed to be yeah but I think security comes in it comes in so many different forms and for me it's peace of mind Elizabeth if you don't have peace of mind that security I mean it goes out of the window so I finally feel peaceful not all the time I've got two boys but that security comes hand in hand with a bit of peace.

5:52Do you find that with your podcast, you're able to just be yourself? So true. And it's so funny because when I started it, people didn't even know I had this accent. Because obviously you're playing different roles and you're playing different characters and you're performing to a certain beauty standard for that kind of world and the film industry in particular. So having a cup of tea and a chat, I mean, it's, as we mentioned just off camera, it's Scouse blood. We do that very well, right? And it's quite liberating and it's nice to actually be myself for once. And I wonder as well if it's hard in some way when you have had such a kind of high profile existence from a teenager on the stages of Bollywood.

6:40Was it ever difficult to remain yourself? It's a very good question. and I actually think back to when I started and I didn't know what I was doing Elizabeth. I was 16 and I went over to India. I was kind of catapulted into it and truthfully I did not know what to do. So I did put on this facade and it would be this kind of overly confident but on the inside I was like oh my god am I doing this right? Am I saying this right? Am I you know showing up the way I'm supposed to show up it was all new to me so I think for many years even off screen there was a bit of performance going on there really was and really just winging it and hoping for the best and actually I kind of we'll get into it but I you lose yourself along the way because you actually don't know who you are what you want where you're supposed to go in life you're kind of getting redirected by different people and you should do this this is a really good look and or take this role because this will do well if you perform next to this person so there were a lot of outside there's outside noise and that gets loud and then everything else gets quiet within you and finally as a 34 year old woman I finally feel like I'm at that place in in time and in life where I feel like actually I'm really happy being me I'm really happy you know embracing who I am and actually not trying to hide it love that okay let's get into it go on I said before we started these failures are so they're so excellent and the first one is growing up too fast so I'd love you to take me back to your childhood what was it like your family growing up in Liverpool when you were let's say eight or nine so I was born in the element like you mentioned moved over to Liverpool at the age of two we moved to Norris Green which is North Liverpool and lived with my grandma parents separated very early and truthfully the the memories of I have of mum and dad together very dysfunctional lots of arguments but individually as parents to me they were bloody fantastic which was very good they were able to come together and, you know, be a partnership in that way.

9:07But I was just a regular Liverpool girl. I loved my horses. I loved my dogs. My mom worked for the Riding for Disabled Association. So every weekend I would be there. And I think that was a really good introduction to kind of growing up and independence and looking after something that wasn't just yourself. incredible mom but also uh she had she had problems with uh different different situation very very close to my grandma and unfortunately when she passed that kind of had a knock-on effect on the whole family yeah so uh we had to kind of navigate that and obviously she won't mind me saying but obviously going through a certain time in her life teenage years going through a certain time in my life we would clash and there would be hormones running riots so it was chaotic it really was but she always remained my best friend she always remained my anchor but there was a certain point in time where I was like okay I need a break from this I need to escape and I think that's what made me want to rush my childhood and rush into independence and freedom and you know as a child you think adulthood is bigger and better than everything and you can't wait to get there it's independence it's freedom it's earning your own money you know we came from a very working class background but I think I really wanted to earn my own money I wanted to go into the world and and do more so I think I wanted to rush that little did I know though that you know adulthood is mainly responsibilities and a lot of admin you know other than being a globally renowned Bollywood star and a legendary beauty I feel like you and I have so much in common because I love it you are in a world of your own I love it that's so sweet of you but I grew up in the countryside loving animals tomboyish yes and I felt like from a young age I had a sort of sense of self which then growing older gradually eroded and I feel like I'm only just getting back to that person now and similarly to you I was so desperate to earn my own living and be independent and my first paid job was age 12 and I remember feeling so thrilled at the money that I earned and you're so right being grown up held this great allure for me.

11:35I was like, I just need to be independent. So was it you who was driving going into modeling? So it was funny. I mean, my first job, I had a Saturday job. I think I was not 12. That's impressive. What was it? What did you do by the way? Come on, I need to know. A loser. I got a job as a fortnightly children's columnist on a local newspaper. Destined. Destined for it. Yes. Wait, so what was your first job? My first job was working at Herbert's and Herbert was a hairstylist in Liverpool, like a celeb hairstylist. He was fabulous. He was a dandy. He was great. And it was just the glamour of Liverpool.

12:18All the most, you know, influential women would go in there and get their hair done. And I kind of wanted to be a part of it. Little did I know it was extremely hard work and I am not good with a basin and sink. That was an absolute disaster. and I lasted all of a day there, Elizabeth. At the end of the day, I was rolling the towels up and she was like, you've been here all day and you still don't know how to roll the towels. I was like, I didn't know I had that much in-depth thinking behind it. But anyway, I got a paycheck of£20 and I was so happy and elated with it and I'm going to go spend it.

12:56So I wandered around the Liverpool City Centre and treated myself to a nice cup of tea on my own At 14. And I treated myself, I think, to something from Accessorize. And I thought, this is what it's supposed to be like. This is the life. Yes. Yes. Okay, so then how do you segue into winning Miss Teen World? How does that happen? At that time, I mean, how many years are we going back? Maybe, I'd say 16 years now. And pageants specifically were a really big thing in order to kind of give you a platform to something else, whether that be modeling or acting or using that as a platform. And I think they have a little bit of a bad rep and rightly so in some kind of circumstances.

13:39But if you use the title, if you use the competition in a way to kind of a stepping stone, I suppose, into something bigger than what that actually is. It's not just the title. It's, yeah, it's a push in the right direction. And I wanted that freedom and I wanted to travel. I've got a gypsy heart on me. I wanted to see the world. And, you know, my parents didn't have the means to be able to do that when I was younger. I don't think I've actually told anybody this. I was, my first boyfriend, we ended up separating. It was only like, you know, young love, one of those. And he went on to date. I miss Liverpool.

14:18And I was like, oh, what is this? well maybe I need to do some investigation I've never told anyone this actually so it was from a fuel it was pettiness I'm a petty cow me too it was pure pettiness and I thought right what is this and I found it I thought well I'm too young for Miss Liverpool is there anything else I could enter into and I found something and it was Miss Team World and it had different segments it was Charity, that was great Writing for Disabled Association I do that on the regular anyway with my mom Interview, we were talking about How Liverpoolians love a good chat I was like, fine, I can handle that And then obviously it was the stage performance And it was performing on stage And wearing a glamorous outfit And a pair of heels And it was all a package I thought, I'd really like to do that It's in America This is, you know, destiny.

15:15You know, it was America. And obviously that's where dreams come true, especially when you're younger. That's what you imagine America to be like. And as I say, you know, she comes from a working class background, worked her whole life, minimum wage, and nothing was too much trouble. And she saw this kind of fire in my belly and she said, let's do it. So we scoured the charity shops for Evening Gown. We signed up. We did the kind of preliminary applications. And all of a sudden, we were on a flight to Texas via Paris, via somewhere else. It was one of those really cheap flights. But we got there in the end.

15:57What an incredible story. And then you win and you're spotted by this Bollywood director. director now how on earth do you manage to get that part that what happens in the audition process and are you in this mindset of well I might as well say yes this door has opened let's see what's on the other side of it back then I was ready for anything so I got scouted to be a model and I signed with them maybe three months prior to when this audition came through and ALVJ like you mentioned in the intro he was casting for a full British family to act in a film called Madrasa Patanim it was a 1940s period drama and he'd seen a picture of me in the Daily Mail of all places and I was on this swing with my Miss Teen World and I'd box dyed my hair red and he said I need to find this girl this is what I've been told we need to find out I'd like her to come in for an audition and I turned up on the day after a phone call from my modeling agency you've got an audition do you want to go for it I said well I've never acted before does he know that yes okay do I need to prepare anything well here are your scenes okay well what do I do with this?

17:21Just read them through. So there's me and my mom and my dad, you know, practicing them. He drove me down to London. I'd never experienced London before. We drove down in his little rackety car, I think five o 'clock in the morning, got there for 10 a.m. and I walk into big hotel banquet hall on the Thames and it is full to the brim of actors. And I think, oh my I'm really out of my comfort zone. I don't know what I'm doing. So we wait in line and eventually a couple of hours passed and I was taken in. And it actually went better than what I thought it would, you know, what I thought it would go like, except for the fact that he asked me with the language barrier, I'd like you to mime this scene out, mime.

18:09So I said, okay. So I thought, okay, you can't use words. You just kind of use your, you know, your actions and your emotions. And about two minutes in, he said, that's great. But, you know, you can use your voice, use your words. And I was like, oh, multiplied. I thought he wanted me to. Yes.

18:32So we did it again and it went really well. And I think it was the fact that I didn't put too much emphasis on it. I didn't know what to expect. So I went in very openly and quite confidently in the way that, all right, I'm going to do it my way. And it worked. Your perseverance to get to that stage is pretty remarkable. But let's tie it back to this failure, this idea of growing up too fast. So you then go to India and you're on a film set. What's that like? It blew my socks off. I think, you know, when you're exposed to something that's so culturally rich and different from what you know and what you've grown up with.

19:16I mean, it broadened my mind, but instantly we got off the plane and it was actually before we even landed. My mom said to me on the flight over because I took my mom. They really believed in family, which is great. They have a really strong connection, especially the director himself and family. He said, you must come with your mom. She can come, be with you, and you can do this together. You know, he realized I was only a teenager. But we were on the flight over, and she said, bloody hell, Aime, I hope you can act. And I said, I never thought about that. I said, I've never actually given it a thought.

19:56I was just like, this is an opportunity. I can't wait to tell the grandkids. We were just landed in India and we had the whole directorial team waiting for us. BJ, his assistant directors. And I don't know whether you've been to India, Elizabeth. I have. I've been to Kerala and Goa. So beautiful. But it's busy, right? Yes. It's really busy and it's a bit of a shock to the system. We saw a cow crossing the road. There was a snake on the side, like a snake charmer. And I was like, this is like a movie. This really was something that I've never experienced before because, I mean, beforehand we touched on childhood and I'd never really been exposed to anything other than my immediate environment.

20:41It felt like I was supposed to be here. And not to say it wasn't difficult. I remember the first day on set and just the sheer colossal size of the sets and the amount of people, probably not all necessarily needed. I mean, in comparison, I knew no difference at that point. But there would easily be about 300, 400 people on set. That's overwhelming. It was a lot. How did you cope with it? I think I just got on with it. And I learnt to put a bit of a mask on. So I didn't want to let anybody know that I was feeling extremely nervous or out of my depth. I didn't want anybody to think, oh no, we've cast the wrong girl here.

21:27So I did put best foot forward, a bit of a mask. But I must admit, I think if I am very honest with myself, the anxiety within my body that I wasn't actually allowing out, I wasn't allowing it to become my reality. But on the inside, it was a lot. A lot of sleepless nights, stressful, obviously a new language, a new culture, away from people that I've known my entire life. Granted, I had mom. But then in the back of my mind, people really would love to be in that position. And in my mind, I had to keep reminding myself of that. But it didn't really help how I was actually feeling. It felt like it was an overload at the time.

22:15I think that's so well expressed. Why did you choose growing up too fast as a failure? I'm interested in how you think it manifested. it. Entering into the film industry, you have to put on a performance and a role and you have to be something that you're not necessarily, you know, accustomed to. And I think a lot of it, as I mentioned, it was a bit of a facade for a long time. And then you kind of lose sense of who you are. And for a long time that had a knock on effect. And it's only just in the recent years that have actually gone back and did the work to actually find out, okay, who am I? This is going to sound like a really first world problem, but when people are doing stuff for you all the time, you have somebody organizing your schedule.

23:05What do you want for lunch? Okay, you're wearing this today. You kind of lose sense of the outside world and what you're actually supposed to be doing for yourself. so I had to rediscover that side of life and that took a while.

23:24When I started this podcast I honestly felt like I was learning a brand new language overnight. Scripts, artwork, scheduling, tech. Suddenly I was the entire team and it was kind of overwhelming. There were so many moments I wished I had a proper business partner to help me figure it all out. That's why I love Shopify. It's the commerce platform behind millions of businesses, and it gives you everything you need in one place. You can build a beautiful online store in minutes with hundreds of ready-to-use templates. Their AI tools help you write product descriptions and even polish your photography, which is a lifesaver when you're spinning 100 plates.

24:04And you can manage everything, inventory, payments, analytics, without juggling 10 different tabs. Start your business today with the industry's best business partner, Shopify, and start hearing... Sign up for your£1 per month trial today at shopify.co.uk slash fail. That's shopify.co.uk slash fail.

24:42I'm Craig Melvin. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers. I've always been a glass half full kind of guy, and now I'm talking to some people who look at the world that way too. Some really fascinating folks who share their defining moments, their triumphs, their challenges. Their stories are funny and quite candid. So I hope you'll join me each week, and who knows? You might just come away with your own glass half full. Search Glass Half Full with Craig Melvin from today on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. I'm interested in what was the craziest thing that happened to you as a Bollywood star. What was the most pinch me surreal moment where you thought, oh my goodness.

25:21Good or bad? Let's go good. Let's go good. Let's do bad later. Okay. There is a legend. He is iconic. People have temples for him. His name is Rajani Khan and I got to act alongside him. He has been in the industry for over 55 years. And we had a promotional tour. And I remember we were there with the director and we had it big and larger than life. It was in Dubai. And I thought, how on earth have I gotten here? You know, going from Liverpool and a very quaint life into being catapulted into this kind of world. And I really did have to pinch myself. We took a helicopter over the palm and landed on that.

26:08I mean, I'd never seen any of this before. I'd never travelled. I'd never seen sites like this. And we landed on the Burj Khalifa. But in the midst of it, Rajni Khansa, he sat me down and he gave me a real heart to heart about life. And I don't think anybody has ever done that within the industry. I mean, he's so knowledgeable and, you know, so worldly. Can you remember any pieces of advice that he gave you? At the time I was back-to-back films and it was from one country to another, which sounds great. But actually, on the other side, you kind of, you know, you lose yourself. You're in the midst of work, which is fantastic.

26:50It was something that I never dreamt of doing. But you're on to the next and you're on to the next. And what else? And what should we do next year? so he really made me take a step back breathe he was very much into yoga and his breathing exercises we actually did one of those in the helicopter itself and it actually made me realize you know you've got to enjoy it humble approach and I think that was very poetically put by him because you get distracted by the glitz and the glamour and but actually enjoying it and I think that was something that I wasn't doing at the time. Did you get into yoga?

27:29I did. Are you still into yoga? I'm not very bendy. I've got to be honest, but I'm a lot better than I was before. Okay. Let's move on to your second failure. This is the first time we've ever had this one. Really? Yes. And it's such a good one. It's such a powerful one because again, so many people will relate to it. It's romanticizing the perfect family dynamic. And my heart slightly broke for the younger you reading that. Tell me where this romantic idea of what the perfect family dynamic first started. Was it as a result of your parents getting divorced? You wanted to kind of create something for yourself that wasn't that?

28:08I think it definitely come into play. I think the phrase hopeless romantic, emphasizing on the hopeless, is definitely something I can lend my name to and associate with. And I think a lot of it come from a place of lack, not from a lack of love. As I mentioned, a great relationship with my mom, best friend. Dad was very present. Love my sister. I was with her yesterday. But there's a nine-year age gap as well. So the family unit was not necessarily there, but I always yearned for that family unit and I think I put so much emphasis on that even as a child I mean career wise I didn't really have a plan and you know I take every opportunity as it came my way but with my personal life I think I was 11 or 12 and I was like I knew what I want and I can envision this beautiful family home with a loving partner and kids and all this happiness and fun and love.

29:23Love, I've got a lot of love. And I was desperate to put that into something. So I romanticized that idea again for many, many years. And I think when you're a teenager and you go through that in your early 20s, And that's the time now, in hindsight, you should enjoy single life and you should enjoy the world and seeing it. And I think I put so much emphasis on a relationship. And I think that blindsided me a lot when it came to the idea of love and what love actually is. I completely understand what you're saying. Do you good? 100%. To give you context, from the age of 19 to 35, I was in a series of back-to-back, long-term monogamous relationships because it felt too scary to be on my own and because I was absolutely trying to create that dynamic.

30:28and I lost sight of my own desires in my rush to build that. And from what you're saying, you'd already made a living in so many ways by performing perfection for others. You had to. That was your job. And I imagine the knock-on effect for you, as it was for me, was people-pleasing. Very much so. debilitating people pleaser through and through and my body was in turmoil with it I was speaking to my therapist about people pleasing and I'm so um aware of what I was doing and why I was doing it but she actually told me it's actually a form of manipulation and I was like okay I was like well I'm going to stop that then because actually I'm doing it to make their life easier.

31:22If I know that, then I'm just going to do and say as I please and yeah, see how that works. But I didn't actually realize I was doing it at the time. I just wanted to keep the peace. I think it stems back from childhood and wanting it to be easy and peaceful as possible. mum and dad you know they had their their arguments and their ups and downs and I didn't want to have an effect in any way to kind of you know emphasize that or or add at any other problems so I was conditioned by myself yes to become a people pleaser and that fed into my relationships massively yes growing up so I don't know if you if this speaks to you but I felt that in my romantic relationships, until I got divorced at the age of 35, I was just outsourcing my sense of self to whatever I thought my romantic partner wanted of me.

32:18Exactly. And of course, it wasn't necessarily what they wanted of me, but it's what I thought they would want. So I was trying to sort of shapeshift. And it meant that I never showed up as myself. I now realise that now. It wasn't that I was lying. It was just that I think I was scared that I wouldn't be loved. or enough or enough as I truly was and you have said that you were a magnet for narcissists again hard relate good okay yeah why do you think good I'm sorry I'm extremely sorry yes why do you think that was in your case again not knowing my self-worth my lack of boundaries and I as we touched on and I'm glad you said it because I do empathize with my younger self but if I could just get hold of her and say come on you've got this where are your boundaries I didn't know what that word actually meant I really genuinely didn't I thought it was just a word that you know the LA clout threw about where are your boundaries but coming back to your question about magnet for narcissists i was i was drawn to them and they were drawn to me when i look back now i go oh amy the red flags were on fire what were you doing i was romanticizing again and i think very charming um they talk a good talk they swoop you in and initially obviously they're a very controlling individual but that control for me I um confused as almost love and well he loves me that's why he's saying this that's why he doesn't want me to do it in this way or say that or be a different person in that way and shape and form.

34:16But I think I confused that controlling behavior for somebody who was loving and caring. And in actual fact, it was the complete opposite. So well put. The most dysfunctional relationship I ever had, when it ended, I remember him saying, you'll never find anyone who loves me like you. I was going to mention this. I can relate massively, Elizabeth. And I think, how long did it take for you to leave that relationship? Seven years. Yeah. Are we mirroring each other right now? I know, this is so weird. It is so weird hearing your experiences. Now, looking back, I understand that is the definition of someone who is a narcissist, who love-bombed.