BONUS EPISODE! How To Fail x Happy Place: The Ultimate Podcast Collab

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1:16Hello and welcome to a unique episode of How to Fail in collaboration with Happy Place. I'm so excited that we got the chance to do this. So it's not a conventional format, this episode. Instead, Fern Cotton and I challenged each other to come up with three clips from our back catalogues that had some kind of meaningful impact on us whether it's because of the conversations it sparked whether it's because of the response we had from listeners or whether it's because it actually changed the way that we lived our lives it is such a brilliant conversation I really enjoyed it and I also love and adore Fern Cotton and everything that she has done with Happy Place We met through podcasts.

2:01We've become dear friends through podcasts. And I just hugely respect her because she is one of the podcast pioneers. She genuinely is one of the first people who opened up these kind of spaces where we can have conversations about vulnerability and we can have conversations about finding our true selves. So I want to say thank you to Fern for that and for giving me the opportunity to do this. We always have a great natter when we get together. This one involved fewer margaritas than normal, but we did have a great, great chat and there are some laughs in there too. So I hope you enjoy this very special episode of How to Fail in collaboration with Happy Place.

2:47This is nice. I'm so excited. A, to see you, be to be in your little podcast hut. It's a bit hot in here today. I'm really sorry about that. That's just me. It is. It's just your beauty and gloriousness emanating. It's so lovely to do this today. Obviously, we've been friends for quite a while now and we usually enjoy this sort of discussion with a margarita in hand whilst having our little dinner dates that we have. Oh no, the best dinner dates. So lovely. But I thought it'd be really nice today for us to look back at some of the episodes of How to Fail and Happy Place that we feel respectively have impacted us the most and just sort of discuss it and have a big old chinwag.

3:28I can't wait. And thank you so much for suggesting this because it was actually podcasts that brought us together. It is. This is the friendship that podcasts forged. It's like a really beautiful circular thing. So I'm just so delighted to be here. That's because the podcast world is the friendliest. So true. It just is. It's this gorgeous ecosystem where everyone supports each other. And this is not just sort of making it sound all fanciful and Disney-like. It is a really beautiful, supportive place. That's why lots of us get on and do this sort of thing. It's gorgeous. I know. It really struck me coming from conventional media.

4:03Same. How supportive. Which, let's face it, is bloody toxic a lot of the time. And actually full of people who don't want you to succeed. Yes. Whereas podcasting is so much more democratic and equitable. And you're right. I've met so many amazing people, either because I've been on their podcast They've come online and they've become genuine friends and we're all really supportive of each other. So it's just lovely to raise a rising tide raises all boats. Oh, isn't that beautiful? Two old boats chatting about life. Let's crack on. So I have chosen to kick off with Emily Ratajkowski, who came on Happy Place a little while ago.

4:40I found this conversation fascinating because I'm deeply intrigued about, I guess, what it is to be a woman in the modern world. And we are often presented with these thoughts that women can have it all and do it all. And we're confused whether that's a feminist thing to say or an anti-feminist thing to say. I never like to put labels on things too much, but I think it's a really good discussion point. So in this, we chat a bit about if it's possible to be an overtly sexy woman and be taken seriously. You are abductified. You, you know, do you're sexualized at maybe very young, even if you're a woman who's, you know, done a bunch of amazing journalistic work.

5:25Like there is kind of this push to be also hot and celebrated in that way. And then on the other side of it, there's this sort of shaming that comes with it of like, well, now nobody's going to take you seriously because, you know, you're a slut, quote unquote. Or even from feminists, I think that there's this feeling of like, well, now you've played into the male gaze. So therefore, you're not progressive. You're not helping women. That's been my experience even before I was a model or in the public spotlight, just, you know, as a 13 year old getting dressed and kind of like having a new body and having a woman's body for the first time and feeling the attention from men when I dressed a certain way.

6:01also like feeling afraid because of the attention, also feeling validated because of the attention, then, you know, having teachers snap my bra strap and feeling like I was typecast in a certain way because of, you know, the way I was presenting myself. So it's complicated. And I think it's something we just get it from all sides, really. Yeah. And, you know, is there a conclusion? Because I think that's the question that I kept asking myself when I was reading your book is, But wait, can a woman and I want the answer to be yes as a feminist, but can can a woman show her sexiness? Can she express her sexual desires, dress in an overtly sexy way and be listened to and be taken seriously and be respected?

6:47I don't know if that is true in the day and age that we're in today. Yeah, I don't think it is. I think it's really complicated. I think there are examples of women who've managed it Jane Fonda is somebody who's done done both there are examples for sure um I even think like Megan Thee Stallion is somebody who you know people respect but she also I mean music is kind of its own category interestingly but there there are examples uh I would even say Cardi B is a great example I mean against all odds she's had to fight and work for it and she deals with race which is a whole other factor of people not taking you seriously.

7:24But I think the issue is that, you know, what a lot of feminists would say is like doing something to feel good. If it's playing into the male gaze, then it's ultimately actually hurtful and harmful to women. My issue is like, God, doesn't kind of everything we do, like in some ways play into that. Like even just putting on mascara in the morning and making sure that like our skin looks a certain way. And one of the episodes I'm doing, the question I'm asking is, can you be a feminist and get plastic surgery? Because I'm just interested in the kind of lines that women draw around what they feel is feminist and is okay.

8:00And how, you know, just what kind of shirt you wear on a given day to work or just not even to work out on the streets in public. So, you know, it's something I'm really fascinated by. And I would say that I don't have an answer. Basically, we can't win. We can't. But one of the things I'm most impressed about is how you pronounced her surname. You nailed that. I practiced it in the mirror a lot. I wasn't even a stumble. I'm not going to lie. It's a great surname. It is. It is. I find it so interesting this episode because as I was walking down the street listening to it and I remember this, I felt that I knew how I thought about these issues and then I would question what I thought I knew because we all live in such an imperfect world that has been built around patriarchal foundations.

8:49And so we can't ever remove ourselves from that context in a way. But my position is being a feminist is about believing in equal rights for women and men. So if you believe that and you live your life according to that premise, you are a feminist and it sort of doesn't matter what else you do on top of that, as long as that's a fundamental belief that you pursue. I agree. But you really have to look at your own opinions and really excavate them. And this episode made me do that massively. And I think even since that episode, I found situations really interesting. The other day I was in a discussion online about body image for women specifically, because that's the only perception I have and the life experience.

9:37And I had given the example of another male host presenter and talked about the fact that they wouldn't have such a spotlight on their body or what they're wearing or what their body looked like, etc. and somebody had commented on that post saying yeah but I don't see him posting pictures of himself in the mirror with an outfit on I don't think they're meaning to sound particularly punchy but my thought process having spoken to Emily was so okay so we have to play to male standards or norms to be taken seriously yeah and also it depends which men we're looking at because there are men who do that there are men who are creatively fueled and Tom Daley has a passion for knitting and has fantastic outfits that he posts so I think it's more about how we express our creativity yeah and I know that's partly how you express yours massively yeah the way that you dress the way that you present yourself the phenomenal way you do your makeup which we were chatting about before that's all driven by your interest in art and connection through art yeah And so I totally get it.

10:40And I think it's more interesting that that's the response of someone looking at you doing that, that that response is conditioned by the society that they've grown up in. Yeah. And it would be really great not only to question the context that we're in when we make decisions, but also the context that we're in when we have responses to other women. Totally. But I think going back to your first reaction to that clip, it's just do what makes you feel good. And we've just got to stop judging other people and therefore we'll end up judging ourselves less. That's the beauty of that one. Yes. You stop judging other people and then you have much more self-compassion and you're less judgmental towards your own actions, which is always a plus.

11:21Preach. So which episode would you like to dig into from How to Fail? I have chosen one of my favourite episodes of all time, which genuinely changed my life. And it is with Mo Gaudat, who came on How to Fail way back in 2019 in season four. The type of thought that makes us unhappy is incessant thinking. Incessant thinking is basically your brain sounding the siren. Something's wrong, something's wrong, something's wrong. That incessant thinking doesn't lead to anything, doesn't change anything in the real world. It happens in the midline areas of your brain. There are two other types of thoughts that are useful.

11:58One of them is insightful thinking, and the other is experiential thinking. Insightful thinking is when you solve a problem. Experiential thinking is when you observe the world as it is. Okay, those happen mostly on the right-hand side of the brain, some in the prefrontal cortex, some in the insula, and so on. Those kinds of thoughts are the thoughts you should allow your brain to give you. And by the way, that's the attitude we use at work. If someone walks into my office and complains, I don't let them complain incessantly. Midway, I say, is there any information we're missing about this? Should we look at this differently?

12:30This is insightful thinking, okay? And experiential thinking. This is basically looking at the world as it is. Then I ask, what can we do about it? And that's exactly what I do with my brain. Ali, my son, leaves our world, okay? People think that I'm not given a choice. I am given two choices. One of them is to cry for the rest of my life. and then 27 years later when I'm on my deathbed, Ali will still not be there. Is that a wise choice? The other is to do something about it. That doesn't bring him back. Nothing's going to bring him back. It's the truth. He left, right? But what I can do is I at least can make my life a little better and his life and the life of a billion people a little better than the day he left.

13:15Isn't that a better way of doing it? Now, of course, I feel pain. I miss him tremendously. But pain doesn't dictate how my brain tortures me. Pain is different than suffering. Pain is I remember him. I feel that I miss him. Suffering is my brain telling me you should have driven him to another hospital. And my brain did, by the way. Okay, I allow my brain only two types of thought. one is useful thinking and the other is joyful thinking anything else I say Becky stop behave useful thinking if my brain tells me you should have driven him to another hospital I basically say to my brain I cannot do this right now do you have something you want to tell me that I can do I wish I could but I cannot give me a useful thought so my brain says why don't we write the happiness model we learned with him share it with 10 million people was the original target and make 10 million people remember him and love him and send him a happy wish, that would be a good way to honor him.

14:17Great. That's a great idea, brain. Thank you. That's how we should think. Right? Or a joyful thought. Until today, I promise you, three to four times a week, I wake up in the morning or I go to bed at night and the only thought that comes to my head is Ali died. He's part of my heart. It's just I feel that part of me is missing. Right? I answer in a very simple way and I say, yes brain but Ali also lived. Do you understand that? Ali died is a horribly painful thought. Ali lived is the same thought but it's a beautiful thought. It's 21 years of joy, of wisdom, of learning, of insightful discoveries, of memories of him taking care of Ayah, taking care of me, taking care of his mother that I wouldn't replace for anything.

15:07Honestly even if you tell me will take away your pain for losing your son, I wouldn't say, no, no, no, hold on. I want him. I want the 21 years. Don't lie to me, brain. Don't lie to me. But think about those. Because when I say Ali lived, I start to get memories that are all happy, all joyful, all things that we did together. That's me being the boss. That's me telling my brain to take charge so that if there is something we can do, we do it. If there isn't, then don't torture me because there is no point to torture me if there is nothing I can do about it. I chose that clip because it changed the way that I think about thinking.

15:50And you can hear there how well Mo explains quite profound concepts. And to give it a bit of context, he's talking there about his late son, Ali, who died age 21 during a routine operation. And the Becky that he mentions briefly is his Becky brain. So Mo calls the incessant anxious brain that is constantly pointing out the things that might go wrong. He calls that brain Becky after a girl at his school who did the same thing. So great. With apologies for any Beckys listening. But there's something about that technique, which sounds so simple, but it's genuinely life changing, because it separates you from that part of your brain.

16:31You feel then that you can have a conversation with your anxious thoughts rather than being wholly defined by them and swallowed up by them. And it's a technique that I use, and that I find immensely helpful. And I'm just so grateful to Mo for sharing that. Yeah, I think that episode will have helped so many people because we all get stuck in that negative loop where an issue from the past or something you're worrying about in the future is obsessional and you just get stuck in it. So I think being able to see the difference between sort of rational thought and what you know to be true versus that worry.

17:04And I really found it interesting hearing him talk about the difference between pain and suffering. Yes. That is a game changer. I never really thought of it like that before, that the goal isn't to rid yourself of pain in life because it's a given that we're all going to experience pain. But suffering, that's perhaps optional in terms of the varying degrees of suffering you're willing to put yourself through. I think it's having the awareness of that, isn't it? Yeah, and it sounds very difficult and it is very difficult to make that choice. But the one way of putting it is you experience pain when you drink a cup of tea that's too hot.

17:39You burn your tongue. That's the pain. The suffering is then for weeks and months afterwards to go, what a stupid person I am to have made my tea so hot that I burnt my tongue. And you're piling self-loathing on top of everything else. and it's absolutely very hard to do in a much deeper context if you've suffered great loss or you're going through a really difficult time or you've just been diagnosed with a terrible illness it's an incredibly difficult challenging thing to do and it is one of those things that needs to become a daily practice I believe because it won't be easy to begin with but if you keep in dialogue with your Becky brain or with your Jennifer brain or with your think of another Kevin brain then my experience is that that has really helped me if I've just kept at it it has actually helped you can build up resilience like a muscle it's so brilliant I've picked this next episode because it's a conversation that you and I have had in real life quite often because we are both part of a blended family I sometimes feel weird saying that word blended but I think it's probably the truest sort of description you can give a family where you've merged pre-existing families kids whatever.

18:48And obviously Rio and Kate Ferdinand have made a beautiful documentary about this. They've been very generous in sharing their experiences of it and continue to do so. And I learned a lot and implemented some of my learnings into how I go about running a home that's blended and dealing with the challenges that you face having a blended family. Then all of a sudden I found myself here with three stepchildren. I think, wow, there's a big turnaround I didn't really like you naively think too much about it I just thought I'm nice it's gonna be okay I'll manage it and I get through everything I didn't really think of the dynamics that go with with it even moving in this house showering and the kids knocking the door and you've got no clothes on just mad stuff that I didn't even think about I think it's only when I moved in and I thought wow this is hard there's a lot there's a lot to think about different areas that people don't even see um it was tough wasn't it i think discipline's a huge one because yeah in each household discipline is different different and we used to have loads of conversations about how far can i go how how loud can i should i shout or how firm should i be like it's so many and there ain't really a dial on the wall that you just say that's go at number six and that'll be fine do you mean it's so much trial and error that and you're scared of getting stuff wrong you never want to get it wrong because you're a perfectionist in that sense yeah and i also think it's more you as a family had your own way of doing things and i grew up with this way that i thought i would be a parent and that i would do and one of the main ones is rio allowed the children to play football in the house and from when i was interesting yes from when i beautiful gorgeous house with gorgeous stuff everywhere exactly my point um but when i was a kid i was never allowed to play the ball in the house and that is something that just I said Ria I can't cope with this and he said but this is what we do and there sort of had to be a thing that now is the new thing that we do but that was hard it was hard wasn't it football played in the house for about a year and then one day I said guys I can't cope with this anymore you've got three stepchildren how have you approached discipline I struggle with this one hugely it's so difficult And that's why I'm so thrilled that you picked this clip, because it's very rare that you get step parents who feel able to talk openly and publicly.

21:11And that's partly because we're all so aware that we have lots of other people's lives taken into consideration when we open up this conversation. Discipline is one of the hardest things. I am really quite lucky now in that my stepchildren are that bit older. So they're all teenagers. I was married before and I was also a stepmother then. and the children were much younger. And it was a dysfunctional relationship for me in many ways. And my experience of that relationship was that I was not allowed to have my own opinion about what went on in our house. And that was really, really difficult for me.

21:50And I think that it really depends for step-parents on how well navigated or not well navigated the divorce has been. because if it hasn't been that well navigated, often the knock-on effect is that one parent feels really guilty and therefore that parent doesn't want to discipline their kids when they come and stay. And that's a very tricky thing for a new partner to know how to deal with. And also because at the time that that happens, the new partner is probably resented, understandably, by the children in question. My situation now is so much better because my husband and his ex have done an incredible job of co-parenting and navigating the end of their marriage.

22:36And their children are great. And actually, they don't need me that much. And in a way, that's very liberating. So I never once would make the mistake of thinking that I'm in any way their parent. I'm absolutely not. I hope I'm someone who they can turn to and who offers a different perspective on life. And the thing that I've noticed has really helped with this time round is that my husband and I, like Kate and Rio, I feel really able to talk to my husband about things and we have great chats about it. And he respects my opinion. That's key. It's key. It's key. And also because I'm a woman without children of her own, very often I feel that my opinion can be very easily dismissed by other parents.

23:20My husband never does that. and I've never felt like that in that family unit. So I think what Kate and Rio went on to say that they have a daily debrief, don't they, before they go to bed. And I loved that idea. And for Kate, it's so much more challenging or differently challenging in many ways because very sadly, Rio's first wife died. And so to be stepping into that is huge and a whole different dynamic. How are you finding it? Do you know what? it's really varied over the years because when I met my husband Arthur and Lola my stepkids were five and nine so they were quite tiny and it was a real novelty and I just thought this is fun we get to like go to the cinema and you know go to adventure playgrounds I'd never done that as an adult so I just thought it was all fun and I think over the years I realized the seriousness of it in terms of the impact that I would have on them growing up and navigating the world and I feel very similarly to you I'm not trying to be another parent I sort of have found the language maybe like guide useful I want to be a guide in their life great term yeah I want to like you I want to be someone that they turn to if they feel they need help or advice and luckily that has happened and it's been like the most special moments where I feel like so included in their life and big moments, which is, you know, I cherish our relationship so much, you know, as a step parent, and that it's one of the most glorious things that it's taken a lot of hard work.

24:52It's taken a lot of discussions with me and Jesse, who was that dad at the start, who felt guilty and all of those things. And, you know, wanted the kids just to be happy all the time, but we've navigated it together. And all of us have changed how we parent and deal with the ever changing family dynamics. and my stepkids are now 21 and nearly 18. And we're probably in a place where we sort of have, you know, decent conversations, have fun. It's less about sort of discipline and homework and bedtime and all the stuff that we've had sort of trudge through previously. So I think for anyone going through that transition now, in a cliche way, it does get easier.

25:33It does get better. I was about to say exactly the same thing because my stepchildren are 19, 16 and 13 and it's really lovely with the 19 year old having an independent relationship with him and I just wanted to say exactly the same thing that it's such a difficult thing sometimes to go through when they're younger but as they get older even though you might never feel appreciated I promise you that as they get older you end up understanding that you are. You are and they understand the relationship with more clarity I think like my stepson who's at university will like call me out of the blue and I could like weep when I see his name on the phone like he's called me oh my god that would never have happened five years ago I think it does take you know a sort of level of maturity and them sort of understanding it which just happens to all kids that they have probably a different perspective of parents step-parents as they get older but anyone going through it please listen to that chat because I think it was just very helpful for me and I've taken a lot of learnings from it.

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28:22So who are you going to chat about next? I am going to chat about the wonderful Alexandra Burke, the singer Alexandra Burke, who came on season 10 of How to Fail. And the reason I've picked this clip is because you and I both remember the 90s and the early 2000s. And the way that women and particularly women of colour and particularly women of colour in the music industry were treated is something that looking back on, I am astonished that we let society get away with. And Alexandra came on and just spoke so openly and vulnerably about that that I wanted to share it. I was sat down and told, you're never going to be good enough because of your colour.

29:00You're never going to sell a certain amount of records because you may not appeal to a certain audience. And I was told to bleach my skin and you're never going to perform on the Brits because they wouldn't have a black artist perform on the Brits. The most you're going to do is just one X factor and that's the biggest it will get for you. And all of that is bullshit, excuse my French. It's just ridiculous because I was never brave enough to say that 10 years ago when I was told that. I sat there and thought, well, if that's the case, I'm just going to work really hard so that I can achieve everything you've told me that I can't.

29:32And, you know, granted, yes, I haven't performed on the Brits before, but I've been nominated and that in itself is a huge honour. And all the little things about not selling music, well, that's rubbish too, because I have sold. So all the little things that I was told that you can't do this and you can't do that. Well, no, I have proved you wrong in some kind of way because I've worked really hard to try my best to achieve things that I'm proud of. but if it wasn't for my family if it wasn't for my mum in particular for my amazing beautiful friends and the team I currently have around me I don't know where I'd be mentally if I'm honest with you I don't know where I'd be because keeping that strong face and keeping that strong spirit up don't get me wrong I'm a very positive person but it's very difficult to keep it up when you are feeling at your lowest but also you know and being made to feel literally like you can't be yourself yes you're too much of something in this way or that way I find it so depressing and flabbergasting that this was only 10 years ago that people were talking to you in these terms and I feel angry on your behalf and you sound really mature and measured about it but do you think were you I'm guessing you weren't allowed to be angry no but where did did you feel anger and where did it go?

30:50I think for me, so it takes a lot to really pee me off. Bless her. It's mad. It is so mad. And I, it really opened my eyes to what she went through. She came onto How to Fail so ready and willing to be unbelievably vulnerable. She also talked about the death of her mother and how that impacted her and how she kept on working right up to the last minute because it was sort of her way of coping and how she was portrayed in the press and the tabloid press in a certain way as being a massive diva on X Factor and placing lots of demands. And I was speaking to this woman who was just so wonderful. You can hear it there.