Charlie Mackesy – ‘Grief propelled me into work that saved me’

0:00You know, I had a brilliant therapist once, who was actually an ex-Franciscan monk. And he said, when people tell you their weight, their sadness, anything, their failings, whatever it is they tell you, treat it like someone's, they're giving you gold. And my best friend at the time, Salir, I suppose, in my heart was Jamie, who was killed in his car, I think six months late. and he just looked at me and he had tears pouring down his face. And I looked at him and then I had tears pouring down my face and I held his hand and then gave him a hug. And we never spoke. This episode of How to Fail is brought to you by Dove Whole Body Deodorant.

0:47Welcome to How to Fail with me, Elizabeth Day. This is the podcast that believes failure is simply what makes us human. Before we get into this episode, please do remember to like, follow and subscribe so that you never miss a single conversation.

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2:37And make laundry day easier with two-in-one washer-dryer combo innovation that completes laundry in about 90 minutes. Shop top brand appliances now at The Home Depot. Offer valid June 17th to July at the US only C-Store online for details. If you haven't met my guest today in person, the chances are you are familiar with his work on the page. Perhaps you saw one of his illustrations during the pandemic on phone screensavers and hospital walls and Instagram grids. Perhaps you remember his familiar handwriting shaping the question, what's the bravest thing you've ever said? And the answer, help.

3:16Or perhaps you've read his books with their tales of a curious boy, a cake-obsessed mole, an anxious fox, and a sage old horse, and you've been forever changed by their accessible wisdom. Their author is Charlie Mackesy, whose outdoorsy childhood in Hexham, Northumberland, later informed his love of nature and wildlife. He briefly attended university twice, but left on both occasions within a week. He started out as an illustrator and a cartoonist for The Spectator and Oxford University Press. But in 2019, shortly before turning 60, Macassie's life changed overnight when a book he had written and illustrated, The Boy, The Mole, The Fox, and The Horse, spent 152 weeks in the Sunday Times bestseller list.

4:08It was translated into over 40 languages, sold more than 10 million copies, and was turned into an Oscar-winning animated film in 2022. Three years later, Macassie published the sequel, Always Remember, which became the UK's Christmas number one. While his work has helped thousands of readers, many of whom come up to him at book signings and tell Macassie he saved their lives, it hasn't necessarily helped him feel better about his own perceived flaws. That's been my feeling most of my life, he says. Somewhere deep within me, most of the time, The feeling is, yeah, I'm in trouble somewhere. It's my fault.

4:50I did it. Charlie Mackesy. Did I say that? You did say that. That's true, yeah. Welcome to How to Fail. Thank you for having me. Are you feeling it now? I'm mainly feeling quite sweaty because isn't it the hottest day in 100 years? It's the hottest day of the year. And because we're in a studio and the audio quality is important, we can't put on the air con. So this is like a Bikram podcasting session. Apologies. Does the temperature affect the sound? Is that a thing? No, the sound of the air called the whir of the fan. The whir of the fan. The temperature affects the quality of the interview I'm going to get.

5:28When can you first remember feeling like that? That you must be at fault in some way? I'm not sure. It's a bit like when you are a bit uncomfortable with something and you realise at some point that it's a song that you don't like is playing. so it happens oh that yeah so when I don't know but I think it's this kind of it's an undercurrent isn't it someone somewhere is really annoying it's interesting because I have the same thing definitely you always have it's actually a really different question to answer isn't it yeah exactly there you go but when I think I've always been quite aware of it.

6:13Have you? Yes. The answer I tend to reach for is that age four, my family and I moved to the north of Ireland. Yes. And as you can hear, I speak with a very English accent. And so even though it was my home, I didn't feel necessarily that I belonged. Yeah. And so I think there was an observational quality to a lot of my experience. And I think being an observer is closely linked to feeling like an outsider. So that sense of not fitting in and being slightly wrong probably dates from that point. Yeah. Like the sound of you is wrong. Yes, exactly. Yeah. Because you got sent to boarding school. I wonder if it started there.

6:56Yeah. I don't know. Yeah, probably. I think the way the system was set up was very much you're in competition with each other, which is a strange way of going about things. like there's a corridor of of of constant test results for various subjects and you could always seeing where you were on the list and of course i was always eighth equal or twelfth or bottom and so you're constantly being reminded that you're not what you could be and then um but yeah then i went to a brilliant geordie school in hexham and and then again with a posh voice and that wasn't easy, but they were so gorgeous. But in the end, I had no reason to feel anything but loved.

7:39We were talking before we started recording about the fact that you've just come back from a trip to a book festival. You often do these events because your work is so important to people. And although I think you'll shrivel at my saying this, you are a beloved and popular author. Okay, we can't tell. It's all internal shrivel. And you have come back from this event and many, many people in the audience shared their experiences with you, their trauma with you, their survival with you. And I wanted to ask you how you feel about carrying those stories. Hmm, carrying them. It's a really good question.

8:29I thought you were going to say, how do you feel about hearing them? Which is a privilege. Carrying them is different. I think normally what happens is I listen to those things and often get really moved, cry with a good number of people. And then afterwards, it feels like a train is slowly hitting me. and then I go back to where I'm staying and sit on the bed and look out the window and try to look at something, anything that takes my mind off because I can't, it's too much sometimes. And then I think I try to, there was a moment in lockdown, I always remember it, in those days, I had a lot of people messaging me all the time and listen, I'm no sage, I just wrote a book about a mole who likes cake and, you know, friends who are journeying in a difficult way with each other and feeling uncomfortable about things.

9:29But I don't really have, you know, I think people just want to be heard probably and seen. And so they were saying, ah, I'm a nurse in a ward and my two friends have died and, you know, help. And I remember pushing my bike through a field one morning with Barney. The dog. in the basket and just suddenly stopping and feeling it was almost like someone turning on taps in my head and I just, it was just, and I was just, just weeping and weeping and weeping standing there and then lay down. And I was thinking, you know, when something happens, it's almost passive. I didn't choose it. I'm wondering what it was.

10:18then I suppose it's the body needs to let go of stuff, right? Yes. Maybe my subconscious was saying, you're not going to do this, so we're going to do it. Or something. But I cried for a good half an hour and lay down and then felt better for it. But yeah, it's a very good question and I don't think I carry it very well. But I do see it as a privilege. You know, I had a brilliant therapist once who was actually an ex-Franciscan monk. And he said, when people tell you their weight, their sadness, anything, their failings, whatever it is they tell you, treat it like they're giving you gold. Receive it like they're giving you gold.

11:07And I always think of that line when someone's telling me they've been in rehab for three years and a drawing has helped them and I just imagine them doing that. Yes. you know and i find it really overwhelming um to see it that way so in a sense it's a privilege but to carry it we can't really you said something that i'm going to disagree with about the feeling that you don't think you carry it well and actually i think you are such an empath and a feeler that the feeling is the, it is the message. The feeling is the thing. And so actually it's the most beautiful way I think you can respond. And there is something quite monk-like about it, actually, now that I think about it.

11:57That's a lovely thing to say. I mean, I think I'm usually lost for words. Because you're feeling. You feel it. And sometimes there's a long silence where someone just says something and you look at them. The first time it happened was when I first started doing these drawings and I put on an exhibition in the gallery and didn't think anyone would really come. You know, my mum maybe and my sister and friends might turn up. And it was quite scary. And I remember a girl bringing her boyfriend to see me. And he was huge. He looked like he played rugby for Ireland, you know, number eight or something.

12:31And she said, this is whoever. And I said, hello, you love Johnny. I said, hi. and he looked at me and I was sitting down and he just looked at me and he had tears pouring down his face. And I looked at him and then I had tears pouring down my face and I held his hand and then gave him a hug. And we never spoke. Wow. Yeah. And I had no idea. I didn't need to know. It wasn't my business to know. But it was plenty for him to... There was a lot. You said a lot. Yes. I think all the most profound human experiences lie beyond words. And words are the closest approximation we can get to in this fallible universe.

13:18They're an attempt, aren't they? Yes. And I think you're probably asked quite a lot why you think your work resonates. And I'm not going to ask you that because I don't think you need to put words to it. But I would like to ask you about your characters and whether you feel that your characters are facets of you talk me through how you see them i didn't know that for a long time i generally don't know a lot and i i usually am retrospective if i do and go oh that's why i run naked through a field you know it's always that kind of thing where i have no idea what i'm doing until after this and in similarly with this, this journalist for The Independent just after the book came out said, of course, you know, we understand what you're doing, there are four different parts of you.

14:03And I was sort of, oh, yes, you're right. So I think, yeah, they are all different facets of maybe being human. We can't be too clear about it, but generally speaking, we have different ways of operating and coping mechanisms and various things about us. And those four characters are definitely how I have operated a lot of my life, I think. How do you describe them? What are their characteristics? Well, the boy usually has all the questions, is anxious pretty much about everything and probably thinks he's in trouble, or too ordinary, or what happens if, or, you know, one day he'll discover I'm ordinary and all these things he feels.

14:58The fox is sort of that wounded side that can't trust and is sort of wryly observing people, relationships, connections and going, you know. And then the mole is the bit of me that, you know, when things are tricky, I'll reach for the crisps, cheese and onion usually, snacks, it just lunges for things to comfort. But underneath it all, I think, you know, the mole is the addictive sort of personality. And then the horse is probably the deepest part of us. Now, why isn't there a cat? Would you like one? Yes, please. Okay. I love cats. Do you? Yes. I mean, I love all animals, but I have a very special cat.

15:53I mean, there are many animals to squeeze in. There are. There are. Similarly with ducklings. I came from Suffolk this morning and I've been looking after some ducklings whose mother was killed in April and I'm their mother or father. And they're just ducks. Ducklings are hamburgers until they can fly. They're just wandering around saying, I'm a snack, anyone? You know, they've got nothing. Their beaks are like soft lolly sticks. and they're surrounded by this terrifying... It's like the pond next to my cottage is literally like a stage on which is played this terrifying three-part drama every night.

16:43It's exhausting. Have you protected them all so far? Well, I didn't protect the mum because she was taken. Oh, gosh. But they can, the 12, was it two or three days ago, when they can fly, they're okay because they've escaped danger and they flew across the pond. I filmed it by accident. What a moment, this was yesterday? Three days ago, yeah. Three days ago, what a moment. But I was just filming, they were sitting there and then they all decided and they came straight. I mean, just, and then when they land, it's like potatoes landing, they just don't know how to land. It's like, oh God, what are we doing?

17:16Okay. But it's very moving that.

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18:42L-L-L-Y dot com. This summer, Prime Video takes you back before Legally Blonde, before law school, and into the world of Elle Woods in high school. Set in 1995, this Gemini vegetarian knows exactly who she is, until her family moves from Bel Air to Seattle. Packed with iconic fashion, 90s nostalgia, and a throwback soundtrack, Elle proves one thing. Law school was hard. High school was harder. From the world of Legally Blonde, watch Elle, a new original series only on Prime Video. Watch now. Your first failure for today is that you failed your driving test four times. I did, yeah, yeah. Why do you think that was?

19:25Probably didn't listen enough to what was being asked. Too nervous, anxious. And also the worst one was the fourth one where I was quite hungover, aged 18. And without indicating I pulled the car over onto a pedestrian pavement, opened the door and threw up. And I remember throwing on, you know how you throw your eyes watering and then I looked across at the examiner, he had his thing, he was just, the look he gave me, it's just, you You know? And so, yeah. So it was interesting because actually in retro, I'm quite, it's really quite good. I think, you know, they're there for a reason, these tests, right?

20:07And if I'd passed, I may well not have been sitting here. You know what I mean? Like I was a reckless boy. Yes. And my best friend at the time, Salir, I suppose, in my heart was Jamie, who was killed in his car, I think six months later. and I it was those moments where I remember four of us lowered him into this hole and I remember looking into the hole and thinking well what do we do now? Everything's different now with a red line drawn now you could feel it nothing will ever be the same now and and and then I went mad for a while I'm so sorry that you went through that and I'm so sorry that Jamie's no longer here in a physical sense can you tell me about him what was he like he was amazing because I he was funny and kind and also was quite I was often prone to lows I went and go through quite lows and he would see them and often would pull me out of them in this sort of stop moping, let's get on and do something.

21:27And it would annoy me for 10 minutes and then it worked. We'd go and feed some sheep or do something. And I think he was one of those people that we loved music, played the same songs, just talked about girlfriends, failed at them, ate together, drank together. So yeah, I was at school then. But I definitely like the loss of him, you know, we all have, everyone has losses and I think part of you goes the bit that you, I think we're different with every person we're close to, we're basically a different side of us. And so that was, you know, I think him a lot still. but what's interesting about that was you have these sort of salient cataclysmic moments in your life where something happens and I then for some reason ended up getting a lift to London never been before and then staying on floors and seeing an ink pen on a table three or four days after the funeral maybe and picking it up and asking if I could borrow it.

22:46And I walked out into the street, it was in Battersea, and sat down and started drawing the street without even thinking about it. And then I did that drawing, and I went into Battersea Park and drew again. And I thought, oh, I like this. And what was happening was I had borrowed these headphones with a tape. and I was really moved when I was doing it and the combination in it, I started crying and the music and the drawing helped me and I haven't really stopped since. So really, that's what happened. Goodness. Yeah, it's mad really. Yeah. when you trace your steps back there's always these little things aren't there it could be a word or a sentence or a friend or something and it was that pen on that table and I liked the look of it and it just made marks that were interesting What was the music you were listening to?

23:55Joan Armatrading This is I don't want this to come across as a an insensitive question because obviously I wish Jamie were alive today do you think you had to go through the grief to get somewhere to get here you know it's very it's impossible to answer but I mean I think for me that without it I would have been very different it broke me in half and then actually those years were hard he wasn't the only one I lost so there was a series of them and of course it's just like profited yeah and young as well yeah 18 19 20 um and so i think i then also what's strange about it is i think when those things happen it in a way gives you the confidence you just go well so what then what have you got to lose start people go oh don't be an artist nightmare you know you'll never you'll never you'll never succeed at that it's impossible or a bit risky or come on mate yeah proper job but because of that you think no just do what's in your heart and listen to it because guess what we're all we're all none of us get out of your life so why not try then what have you got to lose I think were you talking to anyone about how you were feeling or such a good question no I wasn't.

25:35I didn't really know how to verbalize it then, age 18, in those days. People drank a lot. So I think I just put it into ink and music and, you know, crying with a Walkman on, and then just carrying on um it's a good question because i know you you speak very lovingly of your parents i do and i'm also aware that we're talking about a different generation yeah where prior to books like yours and podcasts like mine these sorts of conversations about emotion and vulnerability were just not happening No. But do you think your parents were worried about you? That's a good question. I don't know. I remember saying to my dad, because they were the war generation, so they'd been through horrors.

26:38You know, mum lost her father on the Normandy beaches, my dad's father. You know, they all went through, and so I suppose, you know, they just stoically carried on. But for me, I remember saying to my dad, I think of the third friend who died, I said, is this normal? It was on the phone. He said, Charlie, this is not normal. I promise you that. And it was a lovely, it was hard, the way he said it was really heartfelt.

27:10But yeah, I think it may be me. I think I probably just did bottle things up quite a lot. You've also said this thing that I read in an interview about your mother, when she was getting you ready for school, buttoning up your clothes and saying something to you, saying one word. Yes. What would she say to you? Well, it's more that she would, in fact, she was quite good at that. Even in her last year, whenever I saw her, she'd say, well, hello, said them all. But in those days, she'd always say, remember, always remember. And if I was going to school, you were here, you know, you're all right, you can come back.

27:50You can start again. I love that idea, the order of starting it. It's a new day tomorrow, just remember we love you. And actually nothing really else matters, I don't think. Ultimately, nothing really has any consequence, whether you succeed or don't, except whether, you know, love is it really, I think. Ultimately, isn't it? Yes. And there's so much in that single word, remember. There's so much love and history and tenderness. Yeah. Because we forget. It's a tendency to, especially in times of panic, I forget everything. When I'm in a tight place or things are a nightmare, I do forget those things.

28:40It's so important. you I'm sorry because I feel like I'm just sort of bringing up these catastrophic losses in your life but over the last few years you lost your beloved mum and your beloved Barney your dog how do you remember them is it a sort of practice that you really good question thank you you're very good no wonder everyone loves your podcast um different ways different um Barney because he'd never left my side,

29:18I often sort of sense him.

29:24And actually, Barney came to me because I had another dog and good friends of mine had Barney. And so we shared him really from 18 years ago. And so it's lovely because I can talk to them about him. He came to stay and then stayed for 18 years or whatever it was. And that's quite good to chat about his ways and crying. And mum and my sister, we send each other photographs of mum doing funny things. So I think, you know, processing with others really helps if you can. and

30:09I think for me I think with mum there was such a a tenderness and a humour and a lightness and she really loved the drawings and she stuck them all over her walls and you couldn't see the walls for the drawings and I loved that yes and when she had the book she wore out the cover with her fingers, she would read like this. And so the embossing, the words were off. I've still got the book, there's nothing left. And sometimes she would hold the book open and she would, with her fingers, run over the drawings to feel them. And the only place I've ever seen that before was in a place called the Dragonfly Unit, which was a hospital for teenagers who are struggling mentally.