Chris Appleton - ‘I Felt Shame Before I Felt Love’

0:00Chris Appleton:I did hair so people automatically assumed I was gay. I was only 12 or 13 when I got a job in the hair salon. The ultimate shame which kind of led me to maybe my darkest time of my life and how shame really held me back was when I came out. And I came out at the age of 26. Failure happens to everyone. But I think you have a choice in what you do with failure and I think you can just be beaten down and give up. Or you can pick yourself up and dust yourself off and try again. Welcome to How to Fail, the podcast that focuses on failure rather than success, because we believe that's where you find your true self.

0:38Now, I just wanted to give you a heads up that this episode with Chris Appleton includes discussion of suicide. So please do take care while listening. Don't forget to subscribe and follow so that you never miss a single episode of How to Fail. Hello, this is Elizabeth Day from the How to Fail podcast. I wanted to share something I'm genuinely excited about. One of my favourite UK wellness brands, Ancient and Brave, has just launched in the US. I've used two of their products in my daily routine and they've made a tangible difference. The first is True Creatine Plus. With added taurine, vitamin D and magnesium, it supports physical performance, energy and cognitive function.

1:23It's easy to take at home or on the go, whether I'm working out or not. I also use their clinically studied True Collagen, a pure, potent and powerful staple that supports skin elasticity and hydration, as well as whole body health. It's EU sourced, so free from growth hormones or antibiotics, plus it's neutral in taste and dissolves effortlessly into coffee or smoothies, or a cup of tea. I would say that as a Brit, wouldn't I? Ancient and Brave are proud members of 1 % for the Planet, meaning that 1 % of their sales go to environmental causes, wellness that feels good and does good too. Go to ancientandbrave.com forward slash planet and use the code HOWTOFAIL.

2:07That's HOWTOFAIL, no spaces, all one word, for$10 off any purchase. Spring starts at The Home Depot and we are bringing the heat to your backyard this season. Fire up the flavor with our wide variety of grills for under$300. Like the next grill four burner gas grill that's perfect for hosting your spring cookout. Then set the scene and turn your outdoor space into the go-to spot the patio sets for every budget. Bring it this season with grills that deliver flavor and patios that set the vibe from The Home Depot. Start your spring with low prices guaranteed at The Home Depot. Exclusions apply. See homedepot.com slash price match for details.

2:42My guest today is a man Kim Kardashian credits with changing her life. He is Chris Appleton, one of the most sought after hairstylists in the world and responsible for iconic style statements such as Kardashian's wet look at the Met Gala in 2019 and JLo's Super Bowl blow dry that miraculously stayed bouncy throughout her performance. But for anyone assuming that Appleton's work is one of superficial frippery, his life tells a different story. He grew up the middle of five children in Leicester and struggled with undiagnosed dyslexia at school. Hair became a refuge and the place where he could explore his creativity.

3:28By 13, he was working in a local salon and being badly bullied by his classmates for being gay, something Appleton didn't yet understand about himself. At 16, he left school to work full time and began a serious relationship with his colleague, Kate. By 19, he was a father. In 2016, prompted by an email from Jennifer Lopez's team he initially thought was a scam, he moved to Los Angeles. It was a move that would usher in a new age of success and self-acceptance. Now Appleton has a slew of devoted clients, including Kris Jenner and Martha Stewart, as well as millions of Instagram followers and a regular slot offering advice on The Drew Barrymore Show.

4:15His memoir, Your Roots Don't Define You, is a New York Times bestseller. And yet for all his achievements, the kid inside has never left him. I think imposter syndrome to an extent is healthy, Appleton says. I now have techniques to turn down that hater voice in my head from a 10 to a 2 but it does keep me turning up to jobs prepared I treat every job like it's the first time I've done it Chris Appleton, welcome to How to Fail

4:47Chris Appleton:Thank you for having me, what an introduction, can you come everywhere? I can 100 % come with you and be your hype girl Yeah, I was like, oh this guy sounds cool It's me It is you and I really appreciate what you say about imposter syndrome there I hugely relate to it and I think imposter syndrome gets a bad reputation yeah it does but sometimes you're right that it keeps you driven yeah it does for me anyway yeah I mean I think it has to be a healthy balance which I think I've learned over over time you know because I think sometimes imposter syndrome when it gets to the point where it paralyzes you you know it's unhealthy but I I think every job I do, I still have it.

5:28Chris Appleton:And I think it just motivates me to turn up being my best, one to do my best. I hope I never get to the point where I'm like, whatever. I don't know what I'm doing. I was with my trainer the other day. And it was the Golden Globes. And I had Jennifer Lopez to do it. And I said, I'm a little nervous. I was like, apprehensive. And he said, why are you nervous? You're Chris Appleton. He's like, it's not your first rodeo. And I was like, I don't know. I guess I just, you're only as good as your last job sometimes. You know, I feel like the pressure to make sure that, you know, everyone always looks and feels their best.

6:02Chris Appleton:So yeah, for me, it's motivation. I think it just, I've learned techniques to be able to make it healthy. Yes. And I think sometimes having done the work and done the 10 ,000 hours, even if you're nervous, you can fall back on knowing you have expertise. Yeah, absolutely. So were you happy with J-Lo's Golden Globes? Yeah, she was great. It was so nice to see her again. It'd been a minute since we'd got up, So it was nice. But yeah, this is, you know, especially red carpets, there's so much pressure. You know, we live in a world now where, you know, the Internet is an interesting place. And for me, it changed my life in a great way.

6:40Chris Appleton:And it helped me be visible. But, you know, that visibility is also open to conversation. And, you know, sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad. But I think, you know, you know what you're signing yourself for. I guess I definitely do. So I think I have a healthy relationship with, you know, social media. But, you know, when a celebrity goes out there, you are aware that everyone's going to have an opinion on it. You know, there's only so much control you have on a red carpet with the lighting or, you know, the weather conditions or whatever's going on. We're going to get more into the function of hair and what it tells you and how it projects who you want to be and a sense of confidence.

7:20but I wonder if I could ask you a question which is if hair could talk what would it tell us about

7:26Chris Appleton:celebrity culture I think probably that you know as much as anything hair is just a huge part of your identity it tells you who you are if I say to you Marilyn Monroe you know you think of the platinum blonde bombshell hair you know people still reference it now and if you think of um I don't know chapel with her redhead you know curly hair again it's kind of signature or lady Gaga with her you know she's always doing something different with her hair and it's extreme but if you think of Taylor Swift you think of that you know she's got the bangs and the beachy wave or you know the Kardashians with their rich brunette I think hair is just such a big part of people's identity um and in celebrity culture obviously that identity changes a lot and we're used to sort of seeing people you know looking different and we're like wow you know I didn't know bangs could look so good and then the next day they're gone so I think maybe just the power of reinvention and celebrities are maybe you know aware of that image and how it can change things up and create a different look you know if I'm working with J-Lo it's like okay who are you going to be today it's like is it is it like actress J-Lo is she in a movie that she's sort of promoting or as you know musician J-Lo which is very different um or you know red carpet which again is very different they're all kind of very different kind of vibes and identities but your storytelling you know these looks you do usually trickle down into you know everyday looks that people want to create themselves um which i love i love people being able to come out their comfort zone and try new things and you know a great haircut can change everything i've never wanted to go blonde so much as when you did kim kardashian really i know everyone did that yeah it was incredible talking of storytelling your book your roots don't define you first of all what an exceptional title oh yeah I'm very proud of it when did you come up with the title well it changed we had a book uh previously that was I guess a bit more like my own social media it's a little more surface level maybe what people knew about me it was a little bit more I guess you know glamorous and Hollywood and polished uh but I really just felt like it wasn't a true reflection of who I am and where I'm at in my life um I actually had a cancer scare my mum had esophagus cancer, which was really scary during COVID.

9:42Chris Appleton:And she survived it. And I had a lot of problems with my esophagus and basically after multiple tests and not being told by the doctor that it was okay, you know, I was waiting for them to say, oh, you're fine. It's just acid. And I never got that reassurance. So eventually I had to have like an operation where I had to be brought to sleep. And I sort of laid there and I just thought to myself, have I kind of said what I needed to say or have I, you know, created an edited version of myself, which is probably something I've done my whole life. And I guess I wasn't prepared to lose my voice before I'd really owned it.

10:13Chris Appleton:So that's when the book changed and I scrapped the original idea. And Your Roots Don't Define You came to life because obviously, you know, the initial stepping stone for me was hair. But the bigger story really was the roots really usually do define people, you know, where you come from, how you were brought up and people carry this throughout their whole lives. and I first recognised that in hair and in hairstyling and in changing people's image but really it goes so much deeper It's also a book that contains some fabulous acknowledgements Yeah So you acknowledge Kris Jenner, Kim Kardashian, Drew Barrymore, J-Lo but you also acknowledge Dash Oh my doggy And it's really beautiful I don't think I've ever read an acknowledgement to a dog I think I want to get a tattoo of Dash I just thought about it right now I've got a tattoo of my kids on my I don't I'm not a tattoo kind of person but I have my kids on my wrist um and their date of birth just because it's kind of like your lifeline yeah I kind of had that when I was 30 but Dash is just such a part of the family I never grew up with dogs uh we didn't have that I'm one of five kids so there was too many kids going on and we were very poor as kids so it was kind of like survival you know last thing we needed was a dog but having a dog as an adult he's just become like the family stone i don't know like he's just he's always there he's such a happy little boy and some of my favorite times to be sort of i guess relaxing times or times to switch off is just taking him to the park and watching him you know play and yeah dash is he's a husky um he's such a good boy he's very well trained we actually brought him over at christmas he came on the flight with me and um because like i say he's part of the family i never knew a dog could become such a But I was like, have I just become very L.A.?

11:58Chris Appleton:Because in L.A. everyone has a dog. So I said thank you to Dash just because he's actually been with me through my loneliest times in life and some of my most broken times. Let's get on to your failures. And I want to preface this by saying I really appreciate you opening up about times in your life that I'm sure are challenging to speak about still because they were traumatic and difficult. Yeah. So I just wanted to say that before we ventured that. Of course, thank you. You're welcome. yeah yeah i mean i just think i guess i've got to a point in my career where it's very kind for people to say oh you're successful now you've done this you've done that and you know i guess if i think about it i have done some great things but there's been more in my life that i've been um you know unsuccessful and i've had more no's than i've had yeses i've had more fails than i've had wins but i guess once you get some momentum and you do have some wins people all of a sudden think you have it all together and life's great and you just kind of walked into america and you just became no and everyone you know it's really not like that your first failure is letting shame make decisions yeah can you take us back to the first time you remember feeling shame or you were made to feel shame probably when i was bullied at school for doing hair i did hair so people automatically assumed i was gay i was only sort of 12 or 13 when i got a job in the hair salon but it was before i really considered what gay was or what my sexuality was i was having a good time at school and i was kind of a happy kid um but being bullied it was it was very relentless you know I was beaten up and it wasn't just like a bit of name calling it was pretty intense um more than my kids should go through um so I think probably I felt ashamed of like you know should I be doing hair it's not a guy's thing to do like and they say I'm gay and that seems bad and I don't want to be that so I think shame was shown to me quite young unfortunately and I think I've probably explained experienced and felt shame before I felt love in a way I don't know I I don't know it's such a sensitive age where your development's when developing from a kid into an adult and then that just didn't really feel safe you know that time didn't feel safe the ultimate shame which kind of led me to maybe my darkest time in my life and how shame really held me back was um when I came out and I came out at the age of 26 and turning 27 and when I did come out everyone just assumed that I knew always knew you know like you always knew you kept it a secret and I really didn't I from a very young age I kind of was told I was stupid because I was dyslexic and I was told I was gay because I did hair and they were both things I didn't want to be it seemed really bad and very negative and not a positive thing and I was like I don't want to be that I don't want to be you know either of those things and I just got really headstrong on proving everyone wrong I really thought I'm going to show everyone I'm not even these things and so I didn't look left or right and your brain is very powerful when you set your mind to things you know you can really it was in a conscious decision the only conscious decision I made was to prove people wrong you know and it was before I'd even sort of explored what that meant and and the sad part is I really abandoned myself I think at that age and became a version of myself which I thought society wanted me to be or what was normal but you know eventually that caught up with me and when I came out I think the the sense of loss I felt I didn't know what the hell was happening I just couldn't seem to control it I thought how have I been for my whole life being straight and having it together and thinking this was my life to all of a sudden now it felt like it was a disease I felt like I caught something and I couldn't get rid of it it was just like it felt like so consuming like cancer and also had a lot of people asking me questions which I didn't know the answers to so fast forward to the night I told my kids that I was gay which was just because we had to me and Kate and one of my kids you know had sort of tried to do the best to protect them but people love to talk when there's a secret people want to know about it and then that night telling them that was just the worst night of my life because I felt like everything I'd experienced as a kid really was then just passed on to them and um yeah that's the night I tried to kill myself and I think I didn't necessarily want to die I just wanted to kill a version I just wanted to kill whatever it was in me that I couldn't control anymore and it felt so I felt so much shame that I wanted to kill it.

16:33Chris Appleton:And, you know, that meant, I guess, taking my life. And it felt like it would be better for them to have a dad that was dead than gay because it just, there was so much shame around it. There was so much shame and fear. It was too much for me to understand. The night that I tried to do that, I drove miles and miles and I drove an hour and a bit away. I just was trying to get away. I felt like a disease and I needed to get away from my family, get away from the people I loved because I was like infectious that's how it felt yeah I felt just complete shame that was me coming home to myself and I guess I realized then I'd made a career out of people looking in the mirror making people see themselves become a better version of themselves I just never really allowed myself to look in the mirror I think I was just too afraid when I did look because mine and Kate's relationship sort of ended around the age of 26 27 at the same time I kind of thought well maybe I'm just experimenting maybe I'm going through this breakup and I'm just trying you know sometimes when you go for a breakup you go through you know we have the you know the breakup haircut where everyone cuts the hair off I thought I'm just being a bit crazy a bit wild and but once I'd opened the door of you know being gay and like sexuality I couldn't close it and I just it just felt out of control my life felt out of control I'm so sorry you went through that and how to carry so much pain and thank you for sharing it I'm sure I've took years off my life from what I did and how I treated myself and how poorly I've felt about myself my whole life.

18:12Chris Appleton:I'm sure, you know, I do think that carrying shame and fear and anxiety, I do think it wears so heavy on your body, you know, the worry and the, you know, I think it's not good for you. They're not my proudest moments, but I think where I'm at in my life now is I've done so much work on myself. It may seem like I'm speaking about these things quite lightly. I just know they're part of my story and I'm not ashamed of them anymore I don't feel ashamed of my life and I think for a long time I tried to delete my past you know even move into America I said it was for my career I think part of it was just running away I just wanted to get away from you know this person myself and I think one day when I realized that you know I'd abandoned myself and the real healing was coming back to myself and kind of showing myself the love that I showed others or got into relationships with because I was hoping they would heal it and they would give me the love that I felt like I needed or that I did need and crave.

19:14Chris Appleton:But I think realizing that I can give that love to myself, you know, self-love is very peaceful and it just means that you don't get into relationships. you shouldn't. It just means you don't get yourself in situations that are not healthy. You have boundaries, you know, and I think for a long time, I didn't realize I could do that. It's interesting trying to go into a relationship now. I think I know too much sometimes. I've done so much work on myself and I've had so many different, I've had a big life of highs and lows. So I think it's made me very self-aware. So I've been single for the last two and a half years, because once you know yourself and once you've done the work, it takes someone very special to come into your life because I really guard it now and really protect it and protect myself and value myself like I would my kids.

20:04Chris Appleton:You know, like my kids, I would never let them just be with anyone. Or, you know, as a dad, you know, if someone does something to your kid in the playground, you want to go in there and find that little kid and, you know, tell them, you know, you're so protective. We're not always like that about ourselves. We kind of let people walk over us or, you know, let family members treat us poorly. It's just the way they are. You know, we kind of accept these things that we shouldn't. And I think in doing the work and knowing my value, sometimes it makes your world a smaller place, but it makes it a more peaceful place.

20:37Chris Appleton:Although I don't want to go back to those times, they made me who I am today. And I'm finding a place in my life where I'm proud of who I am, you know, regardless of all the noise and the, you know, the different elements of my life that people feel like they have access to from, you know, being a public figure. Although I just do hair, I mean, let's keep it real. It's not as though I'm, you know, saving lives. But, you know, you're associated with the people that people know, you know, some of the most famous women in the world and people, you know, associate with them with you. And for the first time in my life, some of the darkest secrets that I thought no one would ever know about, I'm okay to talk about.

21:12Chris Appleton:Because hopefully that will help someone else. Exactly. And I love that for you. And I love how you've expressed it. And as Brene Brown says, the antidote to shame is sharing and forging that connection. Because the thing that shame thrives on is feeling like you're uniquely the only one going through something. Because it's so alienating, carrying that burden. Totally. and I also really appreciate what you say there about love because the idea that love is not a failure simply because it ends or evolves yeah I think that you and Kate seem to be such good examples of that yeah so Kate um is your former long-term partner mother of your children and she's also the person who saved your life that night isn't she yeah she saved my life many times not I mean that's the only time I've ever tried to end it like that but you know I think she's she's got me out of many situations where I just didn't see myself.

22:05Chris Appleton:And for many years, Kate saw me when I didn't see myself. And during that time, which was incredibly painful for her, and she was going for her own pain, for someone to be able to see you, even though they're in pain and, and, and, and help lift you out of that was just incredibly selfless. And I think, you know, it's an unconditional love I have for Kate and, you know, the bond of having, um, the kids together and being parents to them and trying to give them their best life experience, even though it wasn't necessarily normal. I think we have a great, you know, foundation, um, and we have two beautiful kids I'm very proud of.

22:43Chris Appleton:And, you know, at Christmas, we spent Christmas together. I came back to the UK and, um, it was New Year's Eve and fireworks were going off and I put my arm around and I said, you know, I did it, you know, cause I actually brought a house in the UK, which was a big thing and everyone was very surprised when I said I wanted to buy a house and be gay because for such a long time I couldn't even come back to England um I think once I left and found myself in in the US I wasn't Chris that was gay I wasn't Chris that had kids I wasn't Chris that was had kids and was gay and but used to be with Kate and he always knew none of that noise was there it was just Chris you know I was a little older so it's not as though people would judge you for being gay it was like kind of like oh okay you know it's who you are I was accepted so to come back to a place where I didn't feel accepted felt paralyzing I would have panic attacks in the car when I had to come back for jobs in the UK I remember leaving Heathrow Airport and I would have panic attacks I just I felt like I couldn't be that but literally it was like post-traumatic stress that's how I didn't know what was happening at the time I didn't quite understand what the hell was happening to me but I just felt like I needed to get the hell out of there um so to actually come back to the UK and buy a house you know that's me not letting my roots define me and um me retelling the story and and starting um my life here because you know I do have my roots here and I want my kids to be able to have their roots here and you know that's why I said to her so you know I did it and she said I always knew you would and I said I didn't and she said I know but I always knew and she always just saw something in me that I didn't and your kids now kitty blue and billy how old are they 21 and 23 they're not kids anymore that is wild looking at you you look 21 and it looks like you have such a beautiful relationship and i just want to pay tribute to that because for anyone listening or watching this who's going through a divorce or going through some crisis of identity i think you kate kitty kitty blue and billy like really show the way forward oh well thank you I mean we just mine and Kate's priority above what was going on with us was always just them and making sure they were okay and they were um you know a focus of just having two great kids and I think you know even at Christmas when I did come back so although I had that nice moment with Kate there was something that happened with my family where someone said something a family member and I was just taken back to being 12 years old again it was just I was really triggered and I think a lot of people can relate to going home at Christmas and you know a lot of people have moved on evolve some people don't and it's fine but it's just like I felt very triggered I need to get out of here like he's just I don't belong here but my daughter Kitty actually had an interaction with the same person and she said to me when we got back she's like dad you know I love you and you know I just want you to respect this boundary I've got where I've never had the best relationship with this person and for me I just want to draw the line there and like respect that I just don't, you know, I will be polite, but I don't want a relationship with them.

25:45Chris Appleton:That's just my boundary. And it's not as though it was a rash decision. It's been a making in the years, but for someone at 21 to feel like they can say like, you know, I can love someone from afar, but if something isn't healthy for me, I can put a boundary in place that I don't want to be around it. I was so inspired and I was like, wow, I think we did a good job. You know, cause I wanted to go on a plane and go home. And I was like, oh yeah, I'm going to do what she does. That's right. Yeah, she's keeping me young and reminding me. But, you know, like, hopefully we've, you know, we've done a good job.

26:19Chris Appleton:We're both very proud of them. You know those times late at night when you're scrolling and you see something online that you've been looking for and you just need to buy it right there and then. You click on the link, you add it to cart before hitting checkout. But then that sinking feeding as you realise you don't have your card anywhere near and don't want to get out of bed. But that's when you see it, that purple pay button that has all of your information saved, making checking out as simple as a quick tap of your screen. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and has so many benefits.

26:59You can set up your own design studio, use Shopify's AI tools that write product descriptions and even enhance your product photography. You can get the word out like you have a marketing team behind you. Easily create email and social media campaigns wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling. See fewer carts go abandoned and more sales. Go sign up for your£1 per month trial today at shopify.co.uk slash fail. Go to shopify.co.uk slash fail. Makeup has always mattered to me, but honestly, I cannot be dealing with that heavy, full glam, 47-step routine. I want stuff that's quick, easy, and doesn't require me to suddenly become a professional makeup artist, which is why I am obsessed with Jones Road Beauty's Miracle Balm.

27:53It's genuinely a total game changer. It's basically your all-in-one do-everything pot. You can use it as a highlighter, bronzer, blush, even a lip tint. It's the ultimate low effort multitasker. And as someone with quite sensitive skin, I love that the formulas are full of skin loving ingredients. So it nourishes rather than cakes. And it's not just the Miracle Balm. Their just enough tinted moisturizer feels like nothing on your skin in the best possible way. Plus, they've just launched their eyeshadow stick, which is already glued to my makeup bag. Effortless, polished, dermatologist tested, just yes.

28:33Modern day makeup that's clean, strategic and multifunctional for effortless routines. For a limited time, our listeners are getting a free shimmer face oil on their first purchase when they use code FAIL at checkout. Just head to jonesroadbeauty.com and use code FAIL at checkout. After you purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them that we sent you.

28:55Chris Appleton:We're leaving today and entering a world of Mickey Mouse waving, princess meeting and greeting, lightsaber clashing, the Twilight Zone Tower of Terror dropping, Banshee flying, Space Mountain launching, galaxy rewinding, what's the whole network galaxy rewinding, fireworks igniting, World of Other Worlds, for whatever you love. Infinite worlds await at the most magical place on Earth. Walt Disney World Resort. Your second failure is believing success would heal old wounds. Yeah, it just doesn't. I mean, yeah, so how do you live with that? I don't know. I thought when I have enough money or when I have enough success, when I make it in America, when I work with this celebrity, when I have this much money, when I can buy this car, when I can buy this house, and then I got it, and then I thought, oh, I still feel the same.

29:48Chris Appleton:You can externally, like, excite yourself and, you know, feel... like you've had a win but if you're not aligned internally you still have that sad feeling and you still have that lonely feeling or you still don't want to be on your own or you still get yourself into relationships because it's better than being alone you really just have to do the work and I think that was for me something I really wanted to consciously change I have a great therapist called John he's an amazing guy and I remember one day sent him I keep getting myself into this situation and I really got to change it I got to stop what I'm doing being attracted to things I'm attracted to and he took me back as it was like the inner child work I don't know anyone listening it the inner child work is basically where you go back to a younger version of yourself and it's just about connecting really that's what I took from it I mean I'm sure there's more of a technical way of framing it but it's about connecting to you who you are and if you think about how you would talk to a little child if they were going through a hard time or they felt alone or sad you know you'd hardly call them stupid or ignore them you would comfort them and i would i would comfort them say hey you know great worry about what the kids are saying to you at school and you're going to be great you know and you you give that kid a lift but i coming back to myself you know there's the technique where you basically see yourself as a kid and you talk to yourself and I I kind of realized my therapist said well how does that little kid feel in this memory and I thought he just kind of feels sad and alone and and not seen and he's like well what would you say to him and I was like oh my god I would tell him that one day like how he feels different now will be his superpower and like you're an amazing and like you're gonna be okay and it's really weird it kind of just I just couldn't stop crying I just realized how mean I'd been to myself my whole life and also how I'd abandoned myself.

31:47Chris Appleton:I just left that little kid that felt alone and a bit different and not quite sure. And I just never let him explore. I never let him grow up. I just became a version of myself that society told me to be or what I thought was the correct thing to do. And a lot of people do that without realizing it. I didn't realize I'd done it. That's why I felt so confused when I came out and stuff. I didn't realize I'd abandoned myself. I didn't realize that I'd left myself. And it wasn't until I connected back to that little kid that was just the beginning though that was the beginning of doing the work and healing and I wonder as well at the time that you were becoming ever more successful and known for your talent part of the reason was because you were surrounded by incredibly successful people was that hard in a way that you're comparing yourself to this extraordinary metric of your client base not really i've always been like a sponge i'm just like call me spongebob square pants i've always just watched in awe and absorbed like what makes them them what makes them successful how do they take their losses how do they come back how do they bounce back because life happens to all of us no matter who you are if you're famous or not envy can be really dark rooted thing and cause people to become very sad versions of themselves you know i see comments sometimes on social media like i spoke at this a few times i saw someone write a comment on it wasn't even my page it was someone's page and they said um i hope you get cancer and i said oh my god this is a really sad person a really sad individual but i think there's obviously some sort of jealousy or envy or something this person feels and I talk about in the book trying to change you know jealousy with whether it be on you know social media and you think well why has this person always got a great relationship but why has this person got beautiful skin or this person seems to have it all you know instead of kind of going to a negative place more trying what I've always tried to do is use them as like a mentor of like well okay there's obviously something I like about what they've got or what they have or what they're doing and try and say well how did they do it and kind of research into what their wins were what their failures were and when you look at that stuff you really realize it's not an easy journey so I think it normalizes it and makes it humanizes it and I think it also makes it a healthier place to be to be able to sort of like look at what they've got and how they got it and work towards something rather than just sit there on your sofa and be like I could never because you can you know I mean I come from a small town well you know it's medium-sized town in leicester in england and i became you know known in hollywood you know against the odds you know and if you work long enough and hard enough and you're focused enough then it change is possible you know and it's not overnight and none of my success was overnight um it's all been just little little moments of leap progging to the next thing.

34:49Chris Appleton:And then one day you get to a place where you're like, oh, I guess I did good. I guess I did the things I wanted to do. You're so right. And this podcast is all about sort of navigating those setbacks in order eventually to know yourself, which for me is the truest version of success. I wonder if I could ask you this because I'm a huge Kardashians fan. And I think in so many ways, Kim Kardashian and Kris Jenner have shaped modern culture and the history of America in the last 50 years and I'm sure you're often asked about them and about their successes but I would love to know what they have taught you about failure just that failure happens to everyone but I think you have a choice and what you do with failure and I think you can just be being down and give up or you can pick yourself up and dust yourself off and try again you know You might have to try in a different way.

35:39Chris Appleton:I think it's just about failing isn't the end. It can be the beginning of something new and something exciting. It's about not giving up, which is giving up sometimes is the easy thing to do. I don't know. I think probably just that. You know, they're very inspirational to see what they've created and the empires that they've given. But everyone goes through life. No one gets, you know, they get out of jail card free and, you know, just cruises and life's great. It's always, in fact, sometimes the bigger your life is, the bigger the problems, you know. Have you ever drunk a Chris Jenner martini?

36:24Chris Appleton:No, I haven't. I've never had a drink with Chris. I had a shot with Kim I had several shots with Kim but never Chris Chris is an early glam girl and I've only recently started doing Chris it was only like when Kim went to do her robbery trial in Paris that I did Chris and I've known Kim for 10 years I've known Chris, she was around, I've never did her and Kim said, can you do my mum while I'm in Paris I said, yep and everyone said to me, oh she's you know she likes early glam and i thought oh god so then the call time was like five and they were like she'll be on time don't be late so i got there at 4 45 i thought oh i'm so early this is great and i walked in the room you're sitting in the chair ready she's like oh i like i'm late and i'm okay so she's like just blow it out and i'm like blow it out like i think wait 10 years yeah just blow it out and she just had that new face and the facelift it's a little fantastic and i I thought, she got this new face.

37:30Chris Appleton:We can change her hair and do something different with her hair. She always had the same hair. You know, the short hair is great and it's iconic, but why don't we do something different? And we did like just a bit longer in like a bob and like it was kind of slicked down and she did like a wet look. And she was like, wow, you know, and she really enjoyed something different. And it had such a response as well because people seem to say, Chris Jenner looks like, you know, the internet kind of went crazy about how good Chris Jenner looked. She actually got emotional. We did an event together and she said, you know, it's funny because I've just had this short hair my whole life and Chris saw me and did something different and saw me different.

38:01Chris Appleton:And that was just so refreshing for someone to see you, you know, and do something different. You know, we all are not seen sometimes. And I think that's the power of the hairstylist. And they say, you know, the hairstylist is like a therapist when you sit in the chair. I think, you know, the power of change is, you know, even when you're Christiana, it's powerful, it touches you. And I think that's the beauty of my job and what I get to do. It's not just hair, it's part of people's identity and how they carry themselves throughout the world. And, you know, I knew that when I did cancer patients and women lost their hair and I used to do these wigs and try and make them look more natural.

38:36Chris Appleton:And these women would say to me, they'd rather lose their breasts than their hair and did these wigs. And, you know, they felt like they could fight cancer and go through their day and, you know, not look ill and, you know, take on the world. Because when they lost their hair, they lost their identity and they just couldn't see what was, you know, that was the most extreme version. But, you know, identity is very powerful. Definitely. and I have a friend going through precisely that at the moment and you're so right as Fleabag says, hair is everything Who's Fleabag? Fleabag is this show written by Phoebe Waller-Bridge it's a comedy show and there's a scene in it where her sister goes for a haircut and she's convinced into an asymmetric bop and she emerges Not the asymmetrical bop She looks like a pencil and there's this whole scene Did you?

39:25Chris Appleton:I think as a hairdresser let's do something honestly it's very sometimes people quite asymmetrical Bob not intentionally that's the worst when you get unintentional and then you go in and like a hairdresser they'll be like well what it is your head is wonky it's not the head you know hairdressers love talking shit savage yeah like you get the perfect colour I love my colour same as last time and then you go in the back and you realise you didn't write it down so you guess the colour and then it comes out different is it it's a bit different this color looks different this time they've changed the formula they've changed the color formula I've definitely had that said to me yeah bullshit they just didn't write it down yeah sometimes they're just making it up on the spot oh hilarious

40:13Chris Appleton:introducing Shark Facial Pro Glow a first of its kind at home facial pro level extraction removes impurities and dual temperature technology boosts radiance and deep puffs with both insta-heat and insta-chill technology. Treat yourself to a hydro-fueled glow in minutes. And because Shark Facial Pro Glow fits in the palm of your hand, you can get that luminous post-spa glow anywhere. Visit sharkbeauty.com to learn more. So good, so good, so good. Spring styles are at Nordstrom Rack stores now, and they're up to 60 % and off. Stock up and save on Rag & Bone, Madewell, Vince, All Saints, and more of your favorites.