Dame Arlene Phillips - ‘I know the power of love’

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0:25Hello and welcome to How to Fail with me, Elizabeth Day. On my podcast, I discuss my guests' failures each week, seeking to understand what obstacles people have overcome and what, if anything, they've learned along the way. Because ultimately, our failures are lessons that help us understand success better. Before we begin, I just wanted to remind you about my subscriber series, Failing With Friends. Today, Dame Arlene and I look at your questions and give our advice. We covered workplace bullying, how to progress your dancing career. To be fair, she had more to say on that than I did, how to juggle work, life and friendships, and so much more.

1:07We would love to hear from you. Follow the link in the podcast notes to share your failures or questions.

1:17Dame Arlene Phillips is an internationally celebrated jazz and musical theatre choreographer. She's worked on some of the biggest selling musicals in the West End and Broadway theatre, as well as a number of hit movies. She was the choreographer on the 1982 film Annie and has created routines for music videos for luminaries such as Whitney Houston, Freddie Mercury and Elton John. In the 70s and 80s, her dance troupe Hot Gossip made headlines and TV appearances in equal measure and she became a household name. From 2004, she was an inaugural judge for Strictly Come Dancing for four years. Her illustrious career has lasted for over six decades and is still going.

2:03We're meeting on a Monday morning and last night Dame Arlene scooped an Olivier Award for her work on the choreography of a new hit production of Guys and Dolls. Saw it, loved it by the way. She's currently touring the country with a revival of Grease. Having turned 80 last year, she shows absolutely no signs of slowing down. It's a work ethic that has its roots in her early life. Born in Prestwich, Lancashire, the middle child of three, her family had little money and she took part-time jobs in order to fund her dance classes. At her first dance lesson, she recalls wearing green ballet shoes because the pink ones were too expensive.

2:47Despite now being a dame, she says she never felt posh at all. About to turn 81, she's still hard at it. I'm looking to make sure that everything I do will be as inventive, unusual or as different as can be, so I never have to repeat myself. Dame Arlene Phillips, welcome to How to Fail. Thank you. I'm excited to learn how to fail. Well, you don't need any lessons from me in how to succeed. What an extraordinary career. How are you feeling after the Olivier Awards last night? Absolutely incredible. On Cloud Nine, it really was unexpected. They were fantastic choreographers in the choreography awards list.

3:33And with James Cousins, who we worked together on Guys and Dolls, we were both absolutely bowled over. As a little girl in Presswich, Lancashire, did you ever imagine that you would be hard at work still at the age of 80? Not only did I ever imagine I would be working at my age of 80, but actually doing what is my passion, that that passion has developed into a lifetime of everything that I've loved because it's in dance. Tell us about how important work is to you and about some of those part-time jobs that you took along the way to becoming the dame that you are today. What were the worst jobs you did?

4:25Oh, the worst of the worst was when I first came from Manchester to London and wanted to live in London. And that was difficult. You know, I couldn't imagine how I was going to survive because I had studied dance in Manchester. But now there were American teachers coming over with American jazz, which we didn't really know over here. And I studied with a teacher called Molly Malloy who gave me a scholarship, but it didn't provide where I lived. Eventually, I found a place to live. And that was by working for the film director, Ridley Scott, who at that time was just starting his commercials company.

5:09And I helped take care of looking after his child and I helped clean the kitchen, whatever there was to do. And then I was offered a job in Dagenham, which was folding old army greatcoats. And all the greatcoats that had bullet holes were thrown into one big basket. And all the decent ones, we had to shake out the mothballs, dust them down and hang them on to a rail where they went to Kensington Market, which had just opened and they were a fashion item. And I smelt of mothballs like you can't believe. So not only was the travel at the time I was living in East Sheen, not only was the travel to Dagenham absolutely awful.

6:03I had to be there at 7am. But also that I would rush off at the end of the day to do a class with Molly Molloy and stink of mothballs. And I was so embarrassed and ashamed that, you know, that everybody was sort of moving away. But I stuck it out, you know, because I had to earn money. We'll come on to one of your terrible jobs as part of your failures. But I wonder if I could ask you about your damehood because not only was it awarded for services to dance, it was also charity work. and I know that you do a lot of charity work for Alzheimer's. Can you tell us why? When I was very young and living in, you know, a two up, two down mum, dad, three children in a not very nice street, which has now been erased, that entire area erased from where I was brought up in Manchester, you know, there were hard times.

7:09My dad wasn't a well man, so he was kind of in and out of work, a barber. And my mum was looking after us. She went to get a job in a school, selling the ice buns in a school. It was really difficult. And I never thought that I would get anywhere or do anything that would lead to success in my life as a child. So the last thing I ever, ever imagined, A, that I would be made a dame, but also we had a little tin box, a charity box. And anything that we got, you know, whether it was a birthday present or any money that we got, we would always have to put something in the charity box. And I thought, you know, my parents were struggling, but they impressed on us.

8:06There are others far west off. So I've grown up with a charitable instinct. But now my father had Alzheimer's. So the one thing about when you suddenly become, if you like, you can call it a celebrity. So I thought, how can I actually use that for good? so I have been committed to charity work, children with cancer, Alzheimer's. People come to me for all sorts of things and I think if I can make a step to help fundraise, why not? Wonderful. We're going to get on to your failures in a minute but I wonder how much you have passed on that ethos to your two daughters. One of my favourite things about you, Dame Arlene, is that you became a mother for the second time at 47 I love hearing that because you sit here as an embodiment of the power of wisdom.

9:05Let's not call it age, of wisdom. And to become a mother at 47 is quite something. Yes. My second child was completely unexpected. I was with my partner had been for seven years or more, never, ever expected to get pregnant. I mean, it didn't even occur to me. I would have loved a second child, but just didn't get pregnant. And so when I found out that I was pregnant, I thought it was the menopause. So for four months, I did nothing about it, assuming that was it. And then I kept wondering why I was putting on weight and why I had morning sickness. They did not seem to resonate with symptoms of menopause.

9:55and I found out I was pregnant and I was actually thinking this is a gift. This is an absolute gift, unexpected and why not? When I found out I was pregnant, I went for my first checkup at a hospital nearby and they were just like, couldn't believe it. They said, oh, would you mind? We've got a team of doctors. Can we follow your pregnancy? I thought, no, I need to be on my own for this. I need to adjust myself to it, this thought. They really thought I was a geriatric mother. They had no expectations that a woman of my age could actually be pregnant naturally. And so I was a little uncomfortable throughout that pregnancy, actually, because it felt like I was some freak of nature.

10:54But now I think, yeah, you are. And you always have been because look at you getting up every morning to go to work and almost coming up to 8, you won. You must be crazy. So my daughters are the joys in my life. And I do feel like my second daughter was a gift that came as a surprise. How beautiful. What was it like having a toddler when you were in your 50s? I actually grew to be the older mother and have confidence in it. I was shy of taking her to nursery. I was thinking everyone's going to think I'm her grandmother. I was uncomfortable sort of joining in with the school mums. They all seemed so much younger.

11:39But actually then I realised there were a couple of mums who also were not very, very young either. So I felt much better. I just felt I was the lucky one. I mean, we were talking before we started recording, I said how incredible your skin is. And you really do look remarkably young now. So I imagine you've always had that. And you very sweetly said that you as a teenager had oily skin and you think that's what it is. I do believe that. But I also had fat cheeks, which I hated. And my second daughter who looks just like me has the same and disliked them intensely I said but I promise you you'll be so grateful so grateful let's get on to your first failure so your first failure is that in your mind heart and body these are your words you grew up wanting to be a ballerina Tell us why you chose this as a failure.

12:41I dreamed of being a ballerina. I'd seen Charlie Chaplin's Limelight. I'd been taken to the ballet to see Russian ballet at the Free Trade Hall in Manchester. And for me, it was where I wanted to escape to. I wanted to have beautiful arms. I wanted to dance to music. I wanted to go on point. It felt to be a life where you could take away hardship and live in a dream world. So that was all I ever wanted to do. Every book I've got from the library, everything was to do with ballet. What I didn't realize at the time is classical ballet physique in itself is, yes, you have a choice to dance. Of course you do, whatever shape or size you are, but it's much harder in classical ballet because there are certain things where your body has to have a free flexibility, a simple, beautifully balanced body, you know, shoulders to waist, waist to hips, legs.

13:55That was not me. And certainly in the ballet school that I eventually got to, it favoured the ballerinas in a way today would be so shocking. Then it was just accepted. You accepted it. Why would it be shocking today? What kind of things would they say? Well, there was a front row. And on that front row were all the beautifully classically shaped dancers who had exquisite limbs that could do moves that, you know, having their leg up by their ear. Not short, stocky, strong, absolutely dancers like me working so hard. But I had a best friend called Olga and we were both the same, both solid, really solid and not given, however hard we worked, the beautiful classical body.

14:56We were separated. All the girls at the front, the front two rows, wore pink leotards, all seemed to be so perfect in my eyes, the way they looked. and we, who were not perfect, were put on the back row in our black leotards. So the difference between being liked or even loved for what you can do didn't reach the back row. And to this day, Olga is still one of my best friends and we still talk about it. Wow. What does Olga do now? I mean, she probably doesn't work. No, no. I'm just thinking everyone's day, Marley. Olga doesn't work. What did she do? Did she become a dancer? She became a teacher, as I did at first.

15:43We both became teachers. You know, they say if you're not going to be a dancer, then teach. Well, it really does happen in the ballet world because you can express everything you want. You can teach everything you want because you know how to achieve everything so you can work with the beautiful dancers, which I did. but I remember all of the front row eventually went off to the Royal Ballet School or Elmhurst Ballet School whereas we didn't have a hope. I didn't realise it at the time, I just kept thinking the harder I worked the easier it was going to be but it was never going to be easy. What knock-on effect did that have in terms of how you saw your own body, how you felt in your own body?

16:29My own body wasn't good enough. My own body would not do the things I kept telling it to do. My own body would never look the way having your leg, let's say, in an arabesque at the back, where the beauty of the line is absolutely stunning. When you've got a big bum, It doesn't look quite so beautiful. You can be brilliant. I mean, I could jump like no one else in the room. I could spin, turn, pirouette like no one else. But in the end, overall, it doesn't happen. You know, when you discover contemporary dance or other forms of dance, the body doesn't be a necessity. it's an accessory. Yes. And is that when you made peace with your body, when you discovered modern jazz?

17:31Or maybe you're not at peace with it still. I don't know how you feel. I've always dreamed. When I say I've always dreamed, I mean literally dreamed that I was at the bar and it was me, except I was with a different body. Wow. That dream sometimes still comes back. Of course, I eventually accepted my body. I tried to build on its limitations and use the power that I had. And I became, when I kind of went over to modern jazz, became an incredibly powerful dancer. I got claps and cheers in class just because of things I could do, which were unique to me. But it wasn't at that time the freedom of the way we use dancers now didn't really quite happen then.

18:31Everything on television, which is one of the reasons I actually started a dance group, Hot Gossip, everything on TV was about perfection, beauty, all of the things which I guess, you know, in the end with Hot Gossip, I built it on stunningly beautiful male-female dancers. But I was never really, truly happy with my own body. It was never as perfect as I would have loved it to be. Are you happy with it now? You know, I look back at photographs of myself, not so much as a teenager, but probably in my late 20s, 30s, where I still did not love either who I was or what I was physically. And I think, what was I thinking?

19:32I see those photographs in such a different light. You know, sometimes I'll post something on Instagram and everybody goes like, like, like, like, like, like. And I thought, why did I waste my life actually disliking everything about my face, my body? Why did I waste my time? What was I seeing? Whereas now I'll proudly post those photographs. the mindset in many ways is a terrible thing take me back to your childhood you touched on it earlier you're the middle of three it was um a difficult upbringing in terms of not there not being that much disposable cash and your mother got very ill when you were a teenager do you mind telling us about that?

20:25I usually can talk about it kind of in the past, you know, steadily, but I think it affects me kind of more now as I get older and, you know, and I've got grandchildren and the kind of realisation. We didn't tell my mum that she was dying. We all decided to keep it a secret. My sister was only 12 and we didn't want her to know, which now she feels she should have been allowed to know, but we thought we were protecting her. It was hard. My mum got leukemia. I was 15. I do remember that there was very little known about the disease. She was in Manchester Royal Infirmary, in and out, having blood transfusion.

21:14And now I think about it, it was always chaos because no one quite knew what leukemia was and why this ward was gradually filling up with more patients with this same disease. My older brother, who was 17, went out to work because my dad, who was a barber, was getting blood clots. So he wasn't well. My life, actually, at that time, with no help, no one to talk to, it was hard. It was really hard. My mum was one of those people. My dad was strict and got cross and, you know, there were hard times. My mum was the gentlest, sweetest soul. And I remember the first thing that went into my head when I knew my mum was dying is I had very painful periods.

22:20Who would put their arms around me and make me feel better? And that was my first thought. And I thought often now that, my God, that was the most selfish of things to think about. but she was someone that could put her arms around you and make everything in the world feel better which I do and did with my daughters and my granddaughters I know the power of love real love and so I just I use it but you can't have something like that happen in your life without feeling a tremendous guilt. I wanted, you know, to go to school. I wanted to go to dance school. Didn't want to miss lessons. Somebody had to stay at home with my mom.

23:15And I wanted, you know, it not always to be my turn. And I know my mom wanted me to be with her. And I didn't always stay. I didn't always give her everything that I could have. because I guess being 15 at that time is very different to being 15 today, where we expect everybody and we see kids growing up so fast. We certainly were not growing up so fast. So it was really hard. I'm so sorry you went through that, and I'm so sorry for your loss. and I think you're very hard on yourself. I don't think that thought about your periods and who was going to comfort you is at all selfish. I think actually it demonstrates what a kind, loving mother you had and although I can understand the guilt because so many of us are riven by it, it was entirely misplaced and I'm sure your mother absolutely knew that and was so grateful for the time that she did have with you and you clearly did so much for her and you're a living testament to her love and thank you for talking about that so beautifully.

24:38Was dance an escape from all of this? Dance was the place I wanted to live my life. I had to dance. I had to be in a studio. This was a world that I treasured And luckily, I felt I could capture all the magic. So, yes, it was the home that I loved rather than the home that was difficult.

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26:47so you do eventually get to london through sheer force of will and this incredible work ethic that you have and this brings us to your second failure which is that in 1966 you saw an ad on You saw an ad in the stage newspaper for an audition for Fiddler in the Roof. What happened next? OK, so I wanted to go on audition for a musical. I'd seen West Side Story. It was life changing. It was jazz in the very, very, very best way. And there was an audition for Fiddler on the Roof. And I wanted to do this audition. I thought, right, singing lessons, took singing lessons. and started to develop my mind to being in a musical theatre show.

27:40And what better way to begin that career by auditioning. So my audition song was I'm Just a Girl Who Can't Say No. I didn't think I could really sing, but I did the first dance audition, which was huge, a lot of people there. and I felt at one with Fiddler on the Roof. It felt the movement was something that I could think, I could feel and I got through that first audition and then we were asked to sing and to my surprise, my absolute surprise, got through the singing audition so the morning was spent dancing and singing, lunch break and I was asked to come back at two o 'clock. The most unfortunate thing in the world was my shift in this miserable cafe where I worked started at two o 'clock.

28:39So I took a deep breath. The auditions were in Covent Garden. The cafe was in Floral Street, Covent Garden. I'm going to run to the cafe and beg them to put someone else in for my shift. No, was the answer. Absolutely no. If you walk out of that door, this will not be a job you could come back to. And I was too afraid. I thought, my gosh, if I don't get the show, what am I going to do? I'm going to have nothing to live off. I'm going to have to find another job. How am I going to do that? I'm dependent on my salary. It's Wednesday and I have to pay my rent on Friday. because I'd moved out of Mindy Scott's.

29:26I was sharing a flat and I did not have the courage. I just, as I was being screamed at, just went into my shell and went, it's okay, there'll be something else. You don't need Fiddler on the Roof. But I did need Fiddler on the Roof. It should have been my show and I could have smashed that choreography the second time around. I knew it was my style, my everything. So I think of it as a failure in myself to not have the courage to believe enough in myself to say thank you very much and walk out of that door. Do you think you got that courage later in life? Do you think you have it now? I think I have actually a lot of courage and a lot of courage to stand up to people.

30:22But sometimes, even now, I don't. I give in because I just want, if somebody is really angry and demanding and shouting, I just want the world to be peace and calm and try to think that everything I'm asking for isn't a matter of life. and death. I excuse myself because I didn't stand up for myself. And actually, not standing up for myself is actually not the right thing. I need to, even now sometimes, just stand firm. I think a lot of women will relate to this. And I wonder, going back to that horrible cafe boss, the man, how much of it was to do with men being angry at you and whether that reminded you of something in your upbringing?

31:19The hardest thing for me in life is men shouting or demanding or pushing or because my growing up with a very strict angry dad and believe me I know why because his mum died when he was very young his father married again and honestly archetypal wicked stepmother who did not want him in the house she had a son of her own and my goodness if my father was strict she was 10 times stricter and just having to go and visit her and I know this sounds surreal but it's absolutely true she had a little white poodle and that white poodle we would go to the house and I remember it was when you know tinned peaches you it was rations you couldn't get tinned peaches she would feed the dog the tinned peaches and the chicken and when we got bread and butter at the dining table, the three kids.

32:31So at the age of 14, she threw him out of the house. He got articled to a barber, which is why he became a barber. He had a really, really, really tough life. And I don't think when you have a tough life, anything in future life, even, you know, marrying my, you know, loving, gentle mum, nothing works. Nothing works for you. When he was a kid, there used to be the thing called the pitch and toss when he was working at the barbers where they would go out and it was a gambling game. He became addicted to gambling and in it's really harsh. And so I do now, and particularly as I got Alzheimer's, as he got older and became the sweet, sweet, sweet man he'd never been.

33:23I find that breaks my heart. But if you don't have a happy childhood, it's hard to turn your life around, I think. So that fear of men shouting at you, and I totally get it. But how prevalent was that kind of dynamic then? When you enter this world of dance and choreography and this show business universe, which is still very dominated by men in those times, I imagine, what was that like for you? Did you encounter it there? It was interesting because when I first started to choreograph, I was usually the only female member of a creative team. It was all men. And I definitely have worked with, wow, some different producers or directors who are so brutal.