Ellie Simmonds - Being different is a superpower.

0:00This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Checking off the boxes on your to do list is a great feeling. And when it comes to checking off coverage, a State Farm agent can help you choose an option that's right for you. Whether you prefer talking in person, on the phone, or using the award-winning app, it's nice knowing you have help finding coverage that best fits your needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Hello, it's Elizabeth Day here. And as you can hear, I have a croaky throat. I'm really sorry. I can reassure you it's not painful. I just appear to be speaking like Kermit the Frog today, so you'll hear that throughout the interview, but it's worth persevering because Ellie Simmons is the most fantastic and generous guest, and I really hope you enjoy the episode.

0:59Welcome to How To Fail, the podcast that treats every failure as a lesson wrapped up in a mistake. Did you know that each week I ask my esteemed guests to give advice on your failures and answer your questions? In Failing With Friends, we open the floor to you, my dear listeners. This week, You'll hear more from Ellie. Our performance director always used to say, John Atkinson, control the controllables. That is so powerful. There's a lot of pressure on things that are outside of our control. So much of what we're going through is universal, even though it feels specifically personal. So do join in by following the link in the podcast notes.

1:41Given that Ellie Simmons won two Paralympic gold medals at the age of 13, you might ask yourself what she could possibly know about failure, but stay tuned. Born in Derbyshire, Simmons was adopted when she was three months old and grew up in Walsall, the youngest of five children. Her family had a swimming pool and she had an early interest in the sport, eventually moving part-time with her mother to Swansea to take advantage of the city's world-class facilities. Simmons's sporting success has been astonishing. She went on to win five gold medals and set two world records in doing so, one for the 400 metres freestyle, one for the 200 metre medley.

2:25She has won 10 gold world championship titles, as well as the 2008 BBC Young Sports Personality of the Year Award, and is, still just aged 29, an OBE for services to Paralympic sport. After retiring from competitive swimming in 2021, Simmons has gone on to present for BBC Sport as well as becoming a familiar presence on our screens through shows such as Strictly Come Dancing and my favourite, Gogglebox. Simmons, who has achondroplasia, is a person of short stature and has experienced her fair share of discrimination and ignorance. So her decision to embrace a public profile post-retirement has an important underlying motivation.

3:10If kids see different types of people growing up, she says, there won't be that staring. There won't be that stigma. Ellie Simmons, welcome to How to Fail. Oh, thank you so much. I love how you said a chondroplasia right as well. Did I? Good. Yeah, no, that was amazing. No, that was really, really good. No, but that was wonderful. Thank you very much for the introduction. I'm really looking forward to chatting with you today. I'm so honoured that you're here. And whilst you are a multiple gold medalist, and we don't have that in common. What we do have in common is that we're both Scorpios. Oh, yeah.

3:44And your birthday is the day after mine. Oh, wow. Different years, vastly different years. And you know who else shares your 11th of November birthday? Leonardo DiCaprio. Does he? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Adam Stanley Tucci. Oh, wow. Oh, he's lovely, isn't he? Yeah. Just charisma central over here. Anyway, I digress. Yeah. Tell me a little bit about that quote that I chose to end on, which is your underlying motivation for having a public profile. And you're so brilliant and natural on our screens. But where does that need come from? I think the need comes from, I just don't want any children to feel uncomfortable or to feel upset with who they are, and especially when they have a disability.

4:27So I feel like, for me, I've got this incredible opportunity enrolled now to help show that we can do anything, no matter what. so and you know tv media is so powerful and if you see yourself on tv or similarities on tv and see people just doing everyday thing I think it can help change society and educate in a natural way in a way it's like now it's that responsibility because I know what it's like even sometimes now you get a few looks you get a few name calls and even though people have seen me in the media and see me on tv it still happens and you still hear stories as well about um children or even teenagers adults getting getting like shouted at getting name called getting a bit of abuse and you just you we hope now that in 2024 that that has changed but there's still definitely a lot of encounters so I feel like if I could just try and do my little bit so children and people with different disabilities just feel a bit more comfortable in society and feel like there's no nerves to go out and about then hopefully that I could I can help play a part you say that you occasionally still experience that name calling and I think it was like three years ago actually yeah where I remember we were walking and shopping and this individual was like on his phone to his friend and he said oh like look look what's in front of us look what's in front of us I'm going to show it and change my camera so you can see just things like that which if I'm having that just a little bit but what's everyone else having as well I've definitely heard stories from other people with different disabilities that yeah definitely get a bit of name calling again social media you always have it I think don't you like that's a small percentage you know and there's still some amazing people out there who reach out and say thank you and congratulate me still on my performances from London 2012 and I'm like guys that's 12 years ago now but still I think the power of London 2012 and what it did for Paralympic sport and for disabled sport as well it was life-changing and now again we've got the Olympics and Paralympics this year I know it's every four years but that power of change and for people seeing people with different disabilities doing sport to the elite level that hopefully again it can inspire children that they can do absolutely anything.

6:46What's it like winning a gold medal at 13? I don't really remember much from Beijing I wish I could go back and do it all again I was so young that actually that had a bit of a helping hand in a way because I think for me if I was a lot older I would have taken the pressure more on my shoulders because I think when you're young you just think it's like an everyday competition really you just go out and you just compete and do the sport that you love never thinking actually how big of a competition it actually is going into those games there was no pressure no expectations it was a shock for me to even qualify my focus was London 2012 we knew I think back in 2005 you know when Seb Coe and David Beckham and Dame Kelly Holmes announced that the games were happening in in London 2012 that's when the excitement for me was that oh yeah I'd love to to go to London never think in Beijing so in a way as a 13 year old I just remember thinking thinking oh wow this is amazing getting a gold medal I wasn't fully aware until probably London 2012 when the gold medals were happening in front of a home crowd where do you keep your gold medals normally at my parents house but sometimes I take my London gold my Beijing gold and my Rio gold I just put them in my wardrobe they're in socks in a bag and I take them like to schools and stuff with me so when people would like to see the medals I want to talk to you a bit about your family because they sound really special and you've described it as a family that celebrated differences oh yeah you were the youngest of five yeah so tell me a bit about that celebration of differences and what it's like being the youngest of five yeah I think me and my mom moved to to Swansea when I was 12 years old to train at the high performance center and I think if I didn't do that move I probably wouldn't have made Beijing and the success that I had in London so I think for me it was perfect timing being the the youngest my next sister older to me was going to her university so was moving away from home my other siblings had moved out of home yeah we all have different disabilities and also all of us are adopted as well and we've seen my parents used to foster as well so we've seen so many different walks of life coming through the house and coming through the door and I think for me that's definitely helped me accept who I am and also So being open to talking about adoption and knowing I've been adopted from such a young age, I can't even remember when they told me, but it's just something we've just been brought up knowing.

9:23I think for me, that's helped with being who I am and celebrating who I am. And I think in a way, my personality is I'm very, very competitive, very, very driven. Like my mum is competitive. So I think having a bit of that in me has helped me with the success in the pool and swimming. But we're very much aware of being who we are and that you could do anything no matter what. And you might have to adapt, like do it in different ways to everyone else. But you can still get that. And that's definitely been ingrained into me by my parents, Val and Steve. Your parents sound amazing, amazing people.

9:58That competitive nature and your openness about adoption, I know, is so valued by so many people. Thank you. You made such an extraordinarily moving documentary about searching, finding your birth mother. And you have reconnected with her. Would you mind telling us what you discovered about why she put you up for adoption? Because there was a fact sheet, I put that in quotes, that she was given that I found so unbelievably moving in all the most terrible ways. And I can't imagine what it was like for you to find that out. Could you tell us that story? Yeah, so I went through my journey of finding my birth mother.

10:39I'd waited in a way since I retired because I knew when I was an athlete that it couldn't be very emotional in a way. And I didn't want any distractions as well. Throughout this journey that I was going to find my birth mother, I found out that the information that my birth mother got given when I was a baby. So nearly 30 years now because I'm 30 in November, November 11th, the day before you. and I found out yeah that the fact sheet that she got given was that yeah having a dwarfism meant that we job wise we're likely to go into the circus we were not intelligent we were going to be stupid we're going to be laughed at a lot and I think when you're vulnerable and again I've never had children so I don't know but from my friends and people who I know who've had children you're yeah you're in a vulnerable situation you're exhausted you're tired all that type of stuff for her to again she hasn't known anyone with a disability and then to give this information that your child's different but this is maybe the way that it's going to be for her and I know there was lots of other factors for her as well too so it wasn't just my disability being one of the factors there's also other things as well going on it's scary that even 30 years ago people with a disability and dwarfism we're seeing like that in society and that's why I hope that now it changes and it is change it has changed so so much but I think there's still a lot more education that the medical professions and the support system around could do to help people who have found out their child has a different disability we'll get on to your failures now but before we do I wanted to ask you about language.

12:26Yeah. Because I've noticed that you say disability and dwarfism. Yeah. And I wondered how you felt about those terms. Because I know some people would find them unnecessarily negative. Yeah. It doesn't label who I am. I'm Ellie at the end of the day, but I do have dwarfism. I am a dwarf and I do have a disability. And I think those words are educational, you know and there's nothing against them at all and I think again it's it's who I am that doesn't define me but it's still words that I'm going to get used and that that I'll use and I think yeah there's nothing to hide behind them I love that and thank you because I wanted to be respectful let's get on to your failures because you did a very generous thing I mean you can hear listeners that Ellie is incredibly compassionate and generous to her core you gave me four failures instead of the requisite three so we're going to we're going to rattle through there's so much to talk about and I've switched around the order a little bit but your first failure is your failure to stop putting pressure on yourself both as an athlete and in work now I always want to be better and better all the time I'm always looking for that next thing and I do put a lot of pressure on myself and especially when I was an athlete but even more now I think into this next chapter of life I knew I was good at swimming and I knew in a way that was where my talent was and having medals I think helped you realize that actually you're good at it because when you've got a gold medal around your neck you know you're the best in the world so that gives you naturally a confidence whereas now it's like actually what actually am I good at like I'm loving all these tv opportunities and things like you say gogol box and documentaries and the documentary getting a BAFTA but actually I don't know if I'm good at it and I'm yet my worst enemy in a way that I do put pressure on thinking I'm actually good I need to work harder I need to be better I need to like I'm evaluating all the time but I think a lot of people do that don't they out there when you know you sleep you sit lying down in bed and you're like why did I say this I could have done this better I could have done that better like I'm definitely like one of my personality traits and it's a bad thing but also a good thing I'm a warrior I worry about everything and the pressure that I put on myself to be the best that I can be now into this work life is tough.

14:43And I wish in a way that I wasn't as pressurised on myself, that I wasn't thinking about being better all the time, that I could just, I do enjoy it, like not saying that. I'm very thankful for everything I get to do, but just, yeah, not have to think that worry in the back of my mind to be better and better and to improve all the time. I feel exactly the same. And I think sometimes the danger is the comparison with other people. Do you compare yourself with others or is it a pressure that you put on yourself to exceed your own expectations? Both. Yes. Very much so. I even did it on Strictly, you know.

15:22I compared myself all the time to the likes of Molly and Fleur who are incredible humans. Beautiful both on the inside and out. But their average height, they're non-disabled, they can dance perfectly. But I wanted to dance like them. and I knew I couldn't but I still wanted to dance like them and then yeah now with this thing I'm always like I said this wrong or I said that they sound amazing but I'm not sounding good but I think we all probably do it don't we in different aspects but I know I do I do it most days and I try not to but in a way I used to do it a lot when I was a swimmer I had to be always analyzing what my competitors were doing and so I could have my race tactics in play so I knew that what they were doing in the water, I could use my strengths against them.

16:09So maybe it's just a natural progression of when I was a swimmer into this next chapter of life. Do you think you were competitive by nature before you were a swimmer? Oh yeah, very, very much so. Always have been. You know, when you play board games with your siblings or you race at the school sports day, I've always always been very very very competitive even yeah without swimming or without this thing in life it's it's just ingrained into me and would it upset you if you didn't do well at school sports day or you lost a board game rationally at the start yes it would but then I have I'm like hell it's only a competition you know it's only um only like some like a board game it's something like that and the next day I'd be fine about it but at the time I'd be like yeah very like oh you know you know how I wouldn't be angry I wouldn't be like oh a sore loser I'm definitely not one of them but I would be like upset from the inside definitely you didn't analyze it yeah yeah yeah and I wonder how much of that comes from this need to be as perfect as you can be given that you were adopted does that make sense like you're trying to prove someone wrong yeah and actually since when going through the whole journey of adoption I've met with so many charities that actually we've spoke about it rejection from this the word go you know having that rejection as soon as you're born and getting put into the care system and then put into fostering and then into families.

17:51Apparently it does leave a scar in you, which you never really think about, you never really evaluate, but in the back of the mind that that rejection is there inside you. So I think, yeah, it must be. It must be trying to prove something to someone else and inside that actually I'm okay, that I can do it, that I'm always proving myself to someone because of the start. Definitely, that's definitely a factor. has that had a knock-on impact with romantic relationships the reason I'm asking you this because I see so much of myself in you yeah um yeah I'm very much a big but again one of my personalities is that I'm always looking for something else I'm always looking the grass is green on the other side I'm always looking for that next thrill that next opportunity that next high I'm like even with when I sit down and chat to my dad a lot we um I can never settle in one place like if you think about I've moved so many houses so many different I've moved houses like no other's business even when I think I've got a nice house and I'm really I love it there I'm always looking for another house or to move to another place like I'm always looking for something and definitely that's been a factor in relationships for sure I'm always just yeah again I think again And it's that confidence though as well, isn't it?

19:11Like I'm always thinking, am I good enough for someone else? Definitely. I think, I mean, I know we've only just met, but I think you're amazing. And you're so lovable and perfect. Oh, thank you. Exactly as you are. And you're such a natural on TV. Oh, thank you. So please don't stop doing it because we love watching you. Oh, thank you very much. So you've got to take who you are and just nourish it and look after it. and I give myself, like at the moment I'm chocker, but I'm looking forward to having a few days off in the future and just being with friends, being with family and doing things there that just puts that energy and battery back in.

19:48I think you are clearly so self-aware and you understand the negatives, but you're right that this sort of motivation comes with a real positive, which is it gives you drive. Yeah. Like you're constantly questing and that's kind of amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. and that's the thing with personalities and who we are I wouldn't have got what I did in my swimming with the achievements of Beijing London especially Rio and then onwards after that and now in this life I'm very much very driven I love being busy even though sometimes I love a day off but it's funny I love a day off but then I'm like wanting to work again so um but it's yeah I love being busy and just been doing something all the time and yeah being working hard given that we've talked about winning I wonder what it's like when you lose a competitive race as a swimmer like how did you cope with that and what did you learn from it on the rare occasions that it did happen do you know what actually losing as I remember my first race I lost at world championships was 2015 Glasgow and I was actually absolutely mortified I was I beat myself up so so much I was so upset with myself but I remember at the time that's how I was very rational very just showed the emotions very very angry took it out on myself because it was me that did the race and did it wrong um but then the next day I remember being so motivated and getting my whole team around me, my coach, my biomechanist, all the other team members and just we sat down and we looked at every bit of my race and every bit of the preparation and we thought this is what went wrong, all this type of stuff and then the next day when the race had finished and the competition had finished and I had a bit of a time out from the water, I had a break and then got back in.

21:50I was so motivated to get back in because I didn't want to feel like that again and I think actually sometimes when races don't go well or things don't go well we learn a lot more about ourselves because for me like say like London 2012 when I had great successful games I was on a high all the time and I never evaluated my races because I was just so high I was so happy with how I was racing I didn't sit down with in any of my races and look evaluate with my coach or anything because we were just on a high we were gone from drugs testing to all the media to the medal ceremony to the media afterwards to all the highs and then it just yeah just flew by and I was just so happy whereas the races that didn't go well I just remember evaluating everything watching them all the time looking about how I could improve all that type of stuff and yeah those were the races actually I learned more about my swimming abilities than when races went well.

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23:46Do you miss competitive swimming? No, I don't. Don't you? No, I don't. I miss the high that you get. And I miss when a training session, when you push yourself through that red zone and your body is an engine and you just give it everything you've got and you're physically, emotionally exhausted, but you're just the high that you get afterwards when it's gone really, really well and you've just pushed yourself to its limits. I miss that. I miss that high. And especially in racing, when you get that high afterwards, it's like a drug. Like it's an addiction. Like you just want to be feel on top of the world all the time.

24:25You have to sacrifice a lot of stuff. You have to live and breathe your sport. Everything that you do revolves around swimming. Because say, if you walk to the shops, you've got to think about your legs. Are they going to tie your legs out? You've got to think about can I go out for drinks because like I again I didn't drink when I was a swimmer but what time I'm bet what time I'm going to go to bed am I going to get a good night's sleep if I don't get a good night's sleep it might I might be tired for training sessions all this type of stuff like it's going through your head all the time I don't miss that because there's a lot of pressure and a lot of sacrifice and now I can just I can have a drink whenever I want I don't if I don't sleep that well yes it does affect me but it's not the be all and end all I can still cope off it um with a lot of caffeine a lot of expressos but I'm still okay I don't miss that but I miss the team I miss being with my best friends every single day and the motivation that they bring being able to travel the world all the time competing all the time that whole team thing is definitely it's like family because you're with each other all the time you you're going for your highs and lows together you're just like the my my teammates who I was when I was a swimmer are my best friends now we've all retired now but it's not the same as being with each other every day everyone's gone on their different paths of life but that's what I miss and representing my country at Paralympics or in a world championships the honor that that gives.

25:54Do you think that swimming helped you take failure less personally? Swimming is a single sport. Yes, you've got the team around you, but it's still you at the end of the day. It's still your body getting pushed to its limits. So I think for me, failure, I've definitely, I blame it a lot on myself. I'll always try everything. And if I fail, I fail. So I'm not scared of failing. We don't like to fail, but... No, you don't want to actively pursue it. But you can deal with it if it comes along. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. Well, let's go back to those early days when you were training as a swimmer in Swansea because it leads us on to your second failure, which is your failure in your GCSE Welsh.

26:36So I moved to Swansea when I was 12 years old. And when you say you moved to Swansea, it was you and your mum moved to Swansea during the week and then you would go back home at the weekends. Is that right? Yeah, yeah, no, that's right. So your dad, Steve, was at home with older children. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he couldn't move as well because of work. But yeah, a huge sacrifice that they made as a couple, but then also as a family as well. So you started learning Welsh at school as well? Yeah, I did in year seven. And then I had to do it for GCSE as well. So I got a U in GCSE because I love my time in Wales.

27:12For me, Wales has got a big place in my heart. And if I hear a Welsh accent, it just takes me back to those times in Swansea. in my favourite school, Alcfair, I loved my school time, I loved my friends there, I loved, we went to the beach all the time, went to Mumbles, Joe's Ice Cream, all that type of stuff and we had a great training as well. For me, if I could learn Welsh, like I know a few words but have a proper Welsh conversation, it would just mean that I could just, yeah, take me back to Wales and any time and just speak the language. I remember a lot of my times I was away from school, training, camps competing world series all that type of stuff like I remember doing my GCSEs in a Spanish school because we were training abroad if I gave more time to my Welsh studies then I hopefully could have maybe passed and be fluent in Welsh now but I think what's so beautiful about this failure is that you wanted to do it to show your love for a particular place yeah because it gave so much to you and I'm very intrigued to hear you say that your school days were were so good because so many people come on this podcast and have had really tough times at school but it sounds like it was very positive experience for you what was the worst thing about training during those years like what was the thing that would always make your heart sink if you're like oh I've got to do this bit diving in to the cold when it was especially um winter time but then also what I really found hard was because I trained from like six till eight I had to go from straight from training to school and my hair was always so wet and smelled of chlorine and you know when you're when you're older in school you can do your hair and the makeup really nicely I was never able to do that because I was going from training to school so you know one thing growing up I wish that I had more time to look nicer but school was definitely I just used to put my hair up in a bun because I was just like I've got wet hair like I'm about to swim in the afternoon as well I got I didn't put my makeup on or anything and I wish yeah I could give myself a bit more time to look a bit nicer and smelling the chlorine and the wet hair is definitely the thing I don't miss would you tell me a bit about your older siblings and what you feel you learned from being the youngest of that group yeah so we've very much got a big age gap to my next sister Katie being 34 35 and then my brother is turning 40 then my next sister is 50 and then my sister Gina who sadly passed away in 2013 she was like 45 but we very much oh no it's all right we've all very much got a big like age gap what I learned from them really is just again I missed a lot of childhood growing up because I was away all the time with being an athlete I think that's one of the biggest regrets it's definitely we're not as close as probably siblings should be do you mind my asking what happened with georgina oh um she died in 2013 due to a heart problem so again we've all adopted and one of her genetics things was yeah heart problem and sadly yeah it got to her got to her in 2013 when people ask you how many siblings you have is that a difficult question um no not really because i still have five siblings um and she'll always be someone to remember um yeah that's beautiful thank you yeah oh no it's all right we've got two failures now to choose from because of your generosity which shall we go for let's go for your failure to sleep oh yeah are you a terrible sleeper i'm very much a terrible sleeper so if anybody has any help with sleeping but I've always been even when I was younger apparently my parents said I just never slept um and even now and even when I was an athlete especially in like Tokyo when there's races that were really really tough I probably only slept like two hours a night I'm just I think again with one of my other failures I think a lot I'm always worrying so sleep time is very much at a time when my brain is just alive and I just think about absolutely everything and especially when work's heightened and I've got a lot of work going on I have to think about absolutely everything and I worry about like yeah what do I have to wear for this saying the wrong thing trying to fit everything in now I've realized that I'm trying to make sure that gym is a priority or going doing exercise because again that helps me mentally so trying to make sure I can fit gym in there's so much going on that that's when it comes alive at night I know in a way I shouldn't be but I'm jealous to those people that when they've got so much going on they just shut off and can sleep because that's just not me so sleep time is definitely limited very much so it also must have been incredibly stressful when you had a big competition and you couldn't sleep the night before yeah because then you're worried about not sleeping I think in a way it helped that I've always known I wasn't a good sleeper and I never used to sleep much when I race so it wasn't a worry because it was just norm and I knew that adrenaline could get me going so throughout those 11 days at a Paralympics I'll be all right that afterwards it would kill me I would be exhausted but during the whole moment I knew that it was just a thing that I used to do and it was just a norm and do lots of well-meaning people give you advice all the time they're like oh switch off your phone yeah have a bath and read all that type of stuff is that annoying it's it's nice because they're looking out for me being okay with it and being aware that that's actually how I am then I feel okay the next day and I know that I can do it normally four or five o 'clock that's the time where I'm just like I need to stop but um I think everyone feels that don't they I think the recurring theme throughout this conversation is self-acceptance and I think that's a very beautiful way of putting it you sort of you know yourself and therefore you're not going to put unnecessary pressure on yourself to be different yeah yeah there's an acceptance there yeah no very much so like again having a disability and being different i know what it's like to accept who i am and hopefully maybe when i'm older i can sleep for england exactly you can be competitive sleeper your final failure actually kind of wraps up a lot of what we've been talking about which is your failure to live in the moment yeah for me very much when I was an athlete I was always like say a championship had just finished done really really well we're always looking at the next thing we we know we get two weeks off then we're back in training ready to train for the next championship so the next competition we've got that four-year plan we've got that year plan we've got that week plan we've got that day plan being in that moment just soaking it all in is just one of the things that I would love to do more and more.

34:09And I'm getting better as I'm getting older. Every moment of London 2012 Olympics and Paralympics just flew. And I wish that I could just stop for a sec in every single day and every moment and just take it all in. I've got photos and they're great memories, but sometimes just like looking at the sky, what's the colour of the sky or what's someone wearing or just those little memories that sometimes you remember when you stop. I just wish I could do that. and it's like I said I'm getting better and better but still I'm always looking at that next goal and next task even now in this work mode life

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35:51How are you feeling about turning 30? It's only a number and I'm trying to think that, but I'm always like, I don't really want to be 30 because I remember when I was younger, I looked at 30-year-olds and they looked like they had a job they had everything and they looked they looked old and i don't feel you definitely don't look 45 but do you know what i mean like 30 year olds when you're young you always think 30 year olds are very much like they've got everything together and they've got um their life is planned out and everything where yeah my life is it's definitely a roller coaster and it's got some great opportunities but it's definitely not planned out i think i'm gonna go to Australia to celebrate it because I'm working over there so I'm gonna extend it the trip and stay over there because I love being I love traveling it's one of my hobbies I can remember when I was turning 30 and my fear was no one would ever think I was young to be doing what I was doing again yeah because I wasn't at your level in any way shape or form in life but I was like a young journalist and people were kind of like oh my gosh can't believe you were born in 1978 that sounds so ancient now and I thought oh I'll never get that again and actually that wasn't true number one yeah number two there is such a sense of agency and relief that comes from actually turning 30 yeah that it ends up being really empowering yeah that's what a lot of people have said to me you know who you are but you can still do what your stuff that you did during your 20s but you've definitely got that air of confidence and knowing that you're you're okay yes exactly so and you were talking there about how when you were competing there was always a plan and I wonder how much you have a long-term plan now like where do you see yourself in 10 years time you know I am the total opposite to me what I was in as an athlete every day is totally different and I love that you've spoken a bit about your love of travel and I know that after rio you took a year out yeah yeah yeah yeah no i did yeah yeah and went traveling and i really would love to know more about that where was the most amazing place you visited where did you feel most at home oh i love vietnam again i love the coffee and the food there and the travels that we had and then i loved my favorite ever country is madagascar i've been to madagascar isn't it amazing yes the lemurs literally beautiful like both the beaches and the just the beauty and like the whole experience I went with my friend Hanley and she did a trip with ocean conservation and stuff and I just had the best two weeks and I thought it was just wonderful.

38:32Again, I know probably a lot of people think, say it, but Australia as well. I love Australia. I know it's quite similar to the UK. I just feel, I love the vibe and I love the outdoorsy feel but again, it feels a bit like you're at home as well. What do you think travel has taught you about yourself? Being okay on my own, definitely. knowing very being very independent very like I know that getting flights all the time where I'm gonna stay booking hotels the spontaneity and just yeah the confidence of being all like sitting at a coffee shop on my own I love doing that abroad I was about to ask you if you went for dinner on your own when you travel yeah yeah I do sometimes yeah definitely is there an element of uncertainty because different cultures have different attitudes to disability yeah exactly like some of the countries actually like say Vietnam Thailand I went with my friends so I wasn't but like Madagascar the first week I was on my own um there's very much you see the difference but a lot of countries I found have been I just lovely like I went to the Caribbean islands and so friendly so welcoming so supportive in Beijing I was traveling on my own and I found that a bit uncomfortable being out there on my own um maybe being a woman maybe being um british having a disability all those factors but yeah that was probably the most time i felt uncomfortable as you're talking i just feel that you sound like someone who is fearless um that you're really like courageous i do get nervous a lot though do you but do you feel fear much do you know my fear is being out of control like even planes now i get nervous for going on planes which i never ever used to and even like sometimes at the end of my career going into Tokyo I used to fear stuff in the water like the depth of the water being three meters I used to hate that used to be able to get scared that it was too deep in the water but I've never felt like that before even like Tokyo the training blocks were red where we used to always train in blue and like the different color it just got to me mentally so I think as I've got older there's definitely a lot more things that have definitely got to me and I'm scared of and I'm more nervous of than when I was when I was younger.

40:46Yeah I'm more scared of flying as well I completely relate I had hypnotherapy for it particularly turbulence and I can't. Is turbulence what get you? Yes. Oh wow is it like just the motion or? Yes it's what you said about being out of control and suspended mid-air. Yeah and also I think there's something about the altitude that makes me feel really emotional anyway so I'm always crying like mediocre films they say that though don't they that like being in the area you're more emotional alcohol gets to you more as well yes i know what are we gonna do i know and that's one of the things i love traveling but i always get so nervous before a flight like i always ask like people to voice message me so i can listen to voice messages to try and distract me or just try and talk to people i'm like the most chattiest um on flying because i try and like pick some well i hope that my people next to me want to talk and not want to settle down so that i could try and distract my mind i promise to talk to you anytime i find myself next to you on a long flight i want to thank you so much for coming on how to fail thank you you know what i wish for you just a big long rest oh i just want you to have like a proper holiday yeah because you deserve that maybe that's what you should do for your 30th i know you're going to be in australia yeah you are such an inspiration i don't use that word lightly oh thank you and you are such a pure bolt of good energy.

42:06Oh, thank you. And it's been a real pleasure talking to you today. And our lucky listeners get even more of you if they subscribe to Failing With Friends because you're about to answer their questions, their problems and their failures. So you're staying for that bit, aren't you? Thank you so much for coming on How to Fail. Thank you. Do follow us to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. Share a link and spread the love. This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.