Emily Atack - ‘I’ve forgiven people for unforgivable things’

0:00I just needed to pay the rent. So it was kind of like, I have to get this job. There's no, there's, you know, I can't fail at this. But Rivals is just allowing me to go in and do my job and do it well. I remember somebody saying to me when I was younger, nobody's coming to save you. And I've never actually told anybody this. This episode of How to Fail is brought to you by Dove Whole Body Deodorant. Welcome to How to Fail, the podcast that firmly believes failure is what makes us human. Before we get into this conversation, please do remember to like, follow and subscribe so that you never miss a single episode.

0:59Buy online and pick up at your favorite rack store for free. Great brands, great prices. That's why you rack. Ready to soundtrack your summer? With Red Bull Summer All Day Play, you choose a playlist that fits your summer vibe the best. Are you a festival fanatic, a deep end DJ, a road dog, or a trail mixer? Just add a song to your chosen playlist and put your summer on track. Red Bull Summer All Day Play. Red Bull gives you wings. Visit redbull.com slash bright summer ahead to learn more. See you this summer. Emily Atak was raised in Bedfordshire, the daughter of an actress and a musician, and also, somewhat surprisingly, the first cousin twice removed of Sir Paul McCartney.

1:44She grew up surrounded by people who made their living in show business. So when she left school at 16, she was confident, she later said, that she wouldn't need a GCSE for what she wanted to do. This, it turned out, was acting. And she was proved right, landing her first audition playing a footballer's girlfriend in the TV show Blue Murder. But it was as Charlotte Hinchcliffe in the smash hit comedy The Inbetweeners that she became famous. Atak was 17 when she got the part, which for many years would come to define her, for good and for bad. She found herself on the cover of magazines and ushered into the VIP areas of nightclubs, but also faced an overwhelming level of sexual harassment, experiences later recounted in her BBC documentary, Asking For It.

2:35In 2018, she was the runner-up in I'm a Celebrity and started focusing on comedy with an ITV sketch show and stand-up tool. It was a pivotal moment, both professionally and personally. In 2022, she started dating a childhood friend, the nuclear physicist Alastair Garner. The couple are now engaged with a baby boy who is almost two. Motherhood, Atak says, has made her feel, I'm now living for something other than myself. And Atak is enjoying an on-screen resurgence too, back playing the fabulous Sarah Stratton on Disney Plus' hit drama Rivals, as well as co-hosting a new ITV game show, Nobody's Fool with Danny Dyer.

3:18Described as a strategic reality quiz, Nobody's Fool is designed to test the contestants' intelligence, or rather, who they think is the smartest out of all of them. Although she was meant to stay impartial, Atak says she found it hard not to root for the contestants. I got emotional at the very end, she said. I do find that hard. The boundaries. Emily Atak, welcome to How to Fail. I'm not meant to be crying yet. Oh, you're so lovely. That's such a lovely introduction. Thank you. It's a pleasure. Bang on every single detail. That's a real relief because... That never happens. There's always something that people kind of, you know, get wrong.

4:00That's amazing. Thank you. No, thank you for being here. And you've had such an extraordinary career and you're still so young because you started so young. Yeah. And congratulations on everything that's been happening for you lately. I wanted to end on that quote about boundaries because it's something I struggle with too talk to me about boundaries Emily I mean what a way to kick it off amazing um it's some boundaries are something that I've learned definitely later uh in my 30s early 30s I would say boundaries are something that I didn't grow up with and that has that was a kind of a beautiful thing and a terrible thing all at the same time um and i've learned maybe i think maybe now that we are that mental health is more of a discussion in life um you know people are having therapy a lot more and and being honest about that and therapy for me has always been a massive thing and and boundaries is the first thing that i learned about in therapy so part of who i am will always be that I forget the boundaries.

5:05But I'm really, it's something I really, really try to every day practice, having my own boundaries and not worrying about upsetting people when you create those boundaries. I mean, I know we're going to unpack some of this more deeply in your failures, but I also think it's so interesting because your lack of boundaries is possibly what also makes you so relatable and and loved because you are phenomenally gorgeous which can actually be quite intimidating and it can create this distance but maybe it must be quite sort of difficult it must have been difficult to travel that line and especially when you're doing something like nobody's fool which is such a brilliant premise and where you have to maintain this this sort of persona where you're not showing emotion so how hard was that they really did sort of spot that early on that I didn't have favorites as such, but I was very bad at playing the host in that way of being completely kind of impartial.

6:05Being at the helm of a show like that with lovely Danny, part of the reason why they chose us is probably because we are personable and you know, but yeah, I really did have to kind of learn that it's a game and there is lots of money involved and people take it very, very seriously. And it's fascinating because the first episode, although the premise is that they have to choose which one they think is the smartest it struck me how much of it is also about class because the first episode the first exercise the sort of posh white older bloke who went to Eton is automatically just assumed to be the cleverest yeah and I'm interested in class and rivals is also all about class absolutely so have you always been interested in class always it fascinates me because I I grew up I've always been in a very unusual position with class a journalist once described me as classless and at first I sort of went oh what do you mean by that but then what what she meant was what I mean by that is that you can't really kind of put you in any of them because you you're relatable and personable to every kind of class and I think I grew up in a very uh mixed way like that like I even though my parents were who they were and we were privileged in a lot of ways and we had a big beautiful house and we went on nice holidays but we didn't go to private school we they were very much my parents were very set on raising us as kind of normally as as possible I hung around with like lads in puffer jackets and they're all smoked weed in their cars you know it was like you know like people just do nothing the show the amazing show it was like that like I literally grew up so I was kind of known to them my friends like that as the posh girl So then as I kind of grew up and left school and started working, I actually realised I wasn't the posh girl at all.

7:59Having pals, no matter what background they came from, I just genuinely didn't care about what background they were from. So yeah, I grew up in a household where class didn't matter. Your background didn't matter. And I mentioned that your mother's an actress and your father's a musician. Now, just to give them their due, your mother is Kate Robbins, who provided a lot of the voices for Spitting Image and wrote the song Surprise, Surprise. She did. It's so amazing. And your dad was a guitarist for Bonnie Tyler. Yes, for 30 years. Incredible. Bonnie Tyler, formerly of this parish. She was formerly on How to Fail.

8:32Now, your parents are amazing. I want to hear about Paul McCartney. Yeah, fair dues. Fair enough. Was he around for a Sunday barbecue? I'm sure he's the one that goes around bragging that he's my cousin, I'm sure. But yeah, no, he was very much a part of my childhood. He's a lovely man and he's a family man. And he was, so the relation is he's first cousins with my grandma, Betty, who's not with us anymore. But he very much, and he writes about my grandma in all his books. And every opportunity he gets, he talks about my grandma because she was such, and my granddad, because they were such key figures in his life when he lost his mom really young.

9:08So he was, yeah, he was very much a part of my mom's childhood on Mount Road in that mad house. Oh, my God, so many memories in that house. The back door was always open. You know, people would be coming and going all the time. And yes, my mum grew up in Beatles mania and it was she said it was just the most insane thing. She said one of her earliest memories was John Lennon was babysitting them. Paul and John would kind of come around and babysit them whilst my grandma and grad had worked in the pub. so yeah it was it was an interesting childhood for my mum and really unusual and creative and insane yeah were they good babysitters apparently so yeah yeah they were and mum Paul he was like a sibling to them really he was a bit older and I think because my grandma was quite a lot older than him he kind of really saw her as like an auntie figure really growing up for me he was hugely a part of my childhood I remember Linda really well she used to take us out on her horses they used to have beautiful um amazing uh acres of land that we'd all play on and um actually I remember once arriving at his house for Sunday lunch and he said oh you've just missed Michael Jackson and I was just like I was I was kicking I was I was fuming and he was like sorry is it not enough that you know you relate to a beetle I was like no I want to meet Michael Jackson um but yeah So that was for and then he had New Year's Eve parties all the time.

10:36And yeah, huge part of my childhood. Incredible. Let's get back to you. Yes. Because this is what this is about. And your failures, there's so much in them that I want to get straight onto them. Thank you so much for the effort that you've clearly put into thinking about this. It means a lot to me. Your first failure, as you put it, I have failed to believe in my own capabilities. Yes. So I can't remember how this started really, but I just remember being very little and thinking that I couldn't do things. I don't know why. It was, I think, I think if I'm being really blunt and honest, so there was me, Martha and George.

11:20I was the pretty one. Martha was the clever one. George was the naughty one. Right. So that, not completely, but if we're just in a nutshell, kind of seeing that, I think that's, I think for young girls, particularly, this is where it starts, where if you are sort of, I mean, Martha was beautiful, don't get me wrong. Yes, these are the labels you were given. Yes, but it was like I couldn't have the brains because I was the tall, blonde one that grew boobs really young. And all the boys fancied me and I fancied the boys. And I played kiss chase with all the boys when I was younger. And I was obsessed with boys.

11:54I was boy mad. I feel like adults without meaning to and family members, they kind of they create these roles for you. So they become comfortable to you. So I think I lent in to that. And I think that, OK, I knew I was the tall, pretty one that mum and dad were proud to sort of physically show me off. And whilst Martha was playing on her little, you know, she would be looking at bugs in the corner on her little thing. I say, I don't even know what they're called. Microscope. Yeah, microscope. That'll do. I mean, that sounds terrible. But I think for girls, it's kind of where that begins a little bit.

12:31So I always kind of thought that that was all I was capable of, just standing there looking nice and being charming and, you know, being flirtatious. And that was that was kind of my thing. And so when I when I realized as I got older that I had so much more to offer, it took a long time for me to be brave enough to to actually say I've got more to more to offer. but then at the same time those things worked for me for a very long time but over the years I have found that when I have pushed myself and done things that people have really rolled their eyes out and gone you won't be able to do that I've always surprised people and I've always surprised myself and gone oh actually I can do that even when it came to doing I'm a celebrity get me out of it you know I was always sort of seen before that as the the sort of pin-up of the in-betweeners and the school girl, the girl next door posing in lads mags.

13:30And people didn't know who I was as a person. So I really enjoyed taking off that mask on I'm a Celeb because you have to, there's nowhere to hide in there. And I think, yeah, people got to know me as a person and realised that I did have more interesting things to say. And I don't know what word to use without saying it, but I wasn't this tart that kind of had this, you know, this kind of optic that had been painted for me. I mean, I'm still a tart. I kind of love that word and I kind of want to own it. But like, I just had more to give as a person, I think, which is what surprised people. It's terrible that it does surprise people.

14:07Your career trajectory is so interesting because it happened at a certain time, sort of pre-Me Too. Yes, pre-social media. Pre-social media and also during a time when we're kind of still there, but where we didn't allow women to be more than one thing. So that childhood label became crushing in its weight and you were very good at it. And I would love to go back to that moment when you were 16, when you left school and you moved to London with Martha, your younger sister, and decided you were going to make it as an actress. What was going on for you at that time? It's funny, my heart races when I think about being 16.

14:48I was a very troubled teenager. And I find that very difficult to talk about because I was such a loved child. And we were encouraged to be creative. And we were so privileged in so many ways. but there were a lot of a lot of things that went on in my childhood that uh really scarred me and and have traumatized me really I'm sorry and people underestimate um families splitting up as well so when I was 16 my mum and dad split up they're great friends now and it's all fine now But at the time, it was really awful. And my brother was only 13 and Martha was 15. And my mum, God love her, she couldn't cope.

15:42It was really, really difficult. And so my dad had moved out of the family home and my mum decided she needed to get away for a while. And I, so yeah, Martha and I moved into a flat together and my brother George went to live with my aunt and uncle. And it sounds so, it sounds awful. And I tread very carefully because my parents are amazing, beautiful, wonderful people who loved us. so much. But they, this was a very difficult time. And my mum, bless her, she, she just couldn't cope. And I, as a mother now, and as an adult, I, I, I get it now. And I was very angry at the time. It was all very scary and very awful.

16:32Because I was such a troubled teen, my poor parents, they just didn't know what to do with me a lot of the time. And I was hanging around in the wrong crowds. I was, I was, I was sexually active with older boys and men. And that was very difficult for my parents. And so I remember when my dad left, I remember at the time, and I've never actually told anybody this, but I was pregnant. And I was very young and I was in this awful, abusive, horrible relationship and I fell pregnant. and it was it was just in the middle of all this kind of stuff going on with my mum and dad and I remember I remember I remember because all of that awful stuff was going on and obviously the pregnancy didn't uh I'm I'm I've never spoken openly about how or what happened and I don't know if I'm ready to yet but obviously that pregnancy didn't um continue I'm so sorry for everything you were going through?

17:40And so, you know, my family was kind of falling apart and, and that was happening. And I, I just felt very determined. So when we moved into this flat, I remember little Martha looking at me and going, what are we going to do? And I said, I'm going to become a famous actress. I just said it. I just made sure that I did. And, And as I say, my parents are amazing people and I don't berate them in any way for this. Everybody makes mistakes. And this was just a period of time where lots of mistakes were being made. But now as a mother, I understand. And also those mistakes, I think actually they've led me to be where I am now.

18:31Because I think a lot of people think that I had it all handed to me on a plate because of who my parents were. and because my mum was an actress but I did it by myself I really did and in the middle of you know doing of being in these abusive horrible relationships just trying to kind of I wanted to be with somebody you know I wanted to be looked after and so I was I was going out with all these awful guys and and and doing all that I was trying to make a life for me and Martha and and yeah and and it sounds when as I'm saying it out loud it does I really don't want people to think my parents are terrible terrible people they really aren't um and I love them so much we have the most amazing relationship and I and I do think it made us all stronger as a family and I I do thank them for it because I genuinely don't think that I would have had that strength and the fearlessness because I would I went into my first ever audition like you said in the introduction which nobody really knows about this I went into my first ever audition just completely there was not a care in the world about what I looked like I didn't feel self-conscious I just needed to pay the rent so it was kind of like I have to get this job there's no there's you know I can't fail at this and I got the part and I and it was from there I mean cocky as anything because you know from there the in-betweeners came very quickly and I was earning money and I just started I started working and Martha passed her driving test a bit later on and started driving me to auditions and yeah so it was always me and me and Martha against the world Thank you so much.

20:10I mean, what a strong, strong person you are. That is a phenomenal story. I haven't told anybody those things. Well, I feel honoured that you have told me that. Thank you. And I just want to reassure you, it comes across loud and clear how much you love your parents. Yes, I do. You and Martha, it's one of the most special relationships I think I've ever had the privilege of researching on this podcast. That's nice. Your younger sister is now your manager. She's an extraordinary agent for other people, including me. She's head of unscripted TV at Curtis Brown, major agency. She's made a phenomenal success of her life.

20:50I wonder, we very rarely get a chance on this pod to talk about sisters. Will you talk about how important your sister is? Oh, wow. I mean, it's an unbreakable bond between Martha and I. And it's something that I would not have survived without Martha at all. And I think when we were little and we were growing up, I did everything I could to protect her. And again, just from the madness and the chaos of what was our lives. And bless Martha, she was the middle child. So she wanted organization and structure and routine. I didn't give a shit about that and nor did my naughty little brother like we we like the fact that mum and dad would sometimes sleep in and we we missed the alarm for school that was great to us but to Martha it was that that really she hated all of that and so I really did my best to protect Martha from a lot of things and I think now she's just it's almost like she repays she she's repaying the favor you know and she now looks after me and my career and my life and it's it's it's just so funny looking at us from being children to then going into our teenage years which is when she started to notice that I I wasn't the most stable older sister in the world I was very vulnerable and I was very chaotic and I made some terrible decisions actually you know thankfully thing she was able to watch look at my behavior and realize god i don't want to do that when shit hits the fan when bad things happen when we're grieving when a family member passes away or something that's when i switch back into um older sister mode and i go right okay i'm gonna sort this out it's gonna be fine um but yes day to day she i mean she knows when my period is i i have to ask her when i'm due on my period i literally rung her the other day and i said i was like i'm coming period i'm like she's like no you're not due on for another couple of days i'm like that's amazing mental insane she does that for all her clients yeah greg james yeah yeah exactly he really needs to know when his period is i remember we when we decided that it was time to separate and i had to go off and live it she she met a lovely um person um who she had a really long wonderful relationship with they were going to move in together and i was going to go off and you know go to the sunset and make the big time you know it was kind of that and I remember the day I left the flat and it was we I find it so hard to talk about we've never spoken about it because it was just too much it was too um it was I couldn't we couldn't say goodbye and I just I went right see ya and I just turned around I just turned around and I kept walking and I didn't look behind me.

23:51But it was a really important moment because I knew she was safe and I knew I could leave her there. I knew she'd be okay. And she knew I was okay. And it was just this unspoken thing. We didn't hug. We didn't say goodbye. I just got in a van with all my stuff and I just left. And we both knew we were going to be okay. so it was a big moment for us bless you there are tissues on the side thanks thank you we've been taught that love by our parents our wonderful yeah mental creative insane parents who we just love so much i i would i really wouldn't change any of that and it's also the time when you are on the in-betweeners yeah and do tell me if you're sick of talking about this No, no, it's fine.

24:48Because it was such a massive cultural shift for so many of us, that program. And for you, just in the context of what we're talking about here, about underestimating your capabilities, I wonder how ambivalent you ended up feeling about that role. Because on the one hand, it catapults you into this sort of stardom and you are brilliant in it and funny and talented. And on the other, you also are treated by a misogynistic culture really horrendously, which probably feeds into all of that trauma that you had from an early age. So I wonder how do you feel now looking back at that period of your life and that role in particular?

25:33Well, I loved playing that role and I loved all the attention I was getting and not the negative stuff, but I loved that it had catapulted me and I was getting invited to all these cool parties and all these like really hot men wanted to go out with me. And I would get me and all my friends, we'd go to all these nightclubs and, you know, we'd get we'd get all the best tables and they'd bring over the big massive bottles of vodka with fireworks in them, you know. do you know what I mean and um yeah and they were really fun years and I was able to kind of do that for my mates and that you know they sort of loved having a mate that was on the telly I didn't really have any telly friends at that point it was all very much people I went to school with who were still my best friends now and the there was the outer the outer thing of being the pin-up and being on the front page of Loaded and FHM and doing all that stuff but that to me was just that was just how I sold my work and that was very normal and I enjoyed those photo shoots fine I didn't think anything of it I'd stand there in my pants I'd break for lunch my mum always came with me on those shoots and we'd sit around and I'd sit there in my knickers and have my lunch and then carry on and then I'd go and then I'd go home back to my flat in Bedfordshire and have all my mates over and then we'd all watch watch it on the telly and but I was I was very safe in my my real life I've just managed to always keep that really separate so it was it was always quite jarring when when I did see all these things out there when when social media started to really become a thing and people were writing about me in all these kinds of ways and I started getting all these kind of crazy messages of old men and people saying things to me in the street it I I really did well to cotton wool myself from that when I wasn't in it so and yeah And I think that separation is kind of what saved me going mad really with it.

27:25So, yeah, it was always, it was confusing because I just didn't, I didn't see myself in that way. I remember like all the pictures of me in the in-betweeners, it was just, it was me in a school uniform. But people go, oh yeah, the sexy schoolgirl uniform. I'm like, no, no, it's not, it's not fancy dress meant to be sexy. I'm just a schoolgirl playing a schoolgirl. I hadn't long left school when I started the in-betweeners. So I was just wearing a school uniform. So I didn't, I genuinely, innocently didn't understand the sexual crassness that was linked to it. I really didn't. It was about the four boys entering, you know, entering their teenage years trying to get off with girls.

28:08That was the premise of the show. and I know that you know the it's peppered with the the fit girl at school it was kind of me and Emily Head was sort of you know the Emily Head who plays Carly you know we were the kind of the you know the bit of totty poster girls for it I guess but even that didn't I didn't feel that there was any anything sexually aggressive about that it was just that was just a bit of fun it was a young cool sexy new show the new skins people were calling it you know so when it was when it became aggressive that's it was confusing I didn't understand and also when I was kind of blamed for that behavior that's what I didn't understand because I was kind of like hang on a minute because people were saying well if you know if you don't want to be treated like that you shouldn't be wearing a really sexy schoolgirl outfit on tv I'm like that what I'm playing a schoolgirl I'm playing a role that means I have to wear a schoolgirl outfit if that's then plastered on websites and you know I remember there was like deep fake porn sites even then with like my head on you know naked bodies like being done up the ass and it's like you go no no but with like a school tie on like and I just I genuinely I didn't understand that I found that very confusing because I was going, oh, is this my fault then?

29:35I'm kind of getting all this negative attention. I just, it was really confusing. I bet. Also, you were a teenager wearing a school uniform, playing that role. So there's this whole other dark added element to it that must have taken years to unravel. In terms of your capabilities and how you're feeling about them now, I feel from an outside perspective that you are in an amazing, rich period of your professional and personal life and you're just only going to keep going and and you're sort of on this really incredible trajectory to see you in Rivals just brilliant acting I mean we were chatting before we started recording you're so good on that show so much really like so funny but also so moving there's one particular scene I'm going to talk about again in the second episode of the second season of Rivals it's this phenomenal dinner party scene and you're pretending to cook it, but actually it's tagging in here.

30:35And there's this moment where you move from laughter to tears to exasperation to then having to gather yourself and walk into the dining room with a pot of stew. And I really did just sit there and think, that is amazing acting. Oh, thank you so much. I think it's because I'm not acting. I think it's because, honestly, my whole life has been building up to that moment. And I think the reason why Sarah Stratton means so much to me is because it's the first time in my life, I've been given lovely opportunities and roles and I'm so grateful to the in-betweeners and other jobs along the way that have really kind of put me up the ladder a little bit.

31:16But I do feel with rivals, there is a particular trust that they have with me that I've never had, that nobody has ever had with me before, which is they believe I can do it. And they believe that I don't just have to be the girl that stands there in the corner not saying much they've given me more to do they've given me these beautiful scenes because they know I can do it they believe in me and that has taken me 20 years almost I've jumped through so many hoops I have and don't get me wrong I know I'm talking from a white middle you know white privilege position but I have had snobbery over the years.

31:58People have been very snooty towards me because of, you know, the fact I've got blonde hair, boobs, posing lads mags. I wear fake tan eyelashes. I've always got a dodgy fake tan situation going on. But Rivals is just allowing me to go in and do my job and do it well. Have you ever rearranged your furniture and discovered the carpet underneath looks brand new while the rest of it looks, well, not so new? It's time for a carpet upgrade. At the Home Depot, we have stylish choices at simple prices from all the top brands. Best of all, we can install it for you. Starting at only 49 cents per square foot.

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33:16Terms at aka.ms slash college PC. Good sleep is everything. That's why Oli's science back support is made with a blend of melatonin and L-theanine for both kiddos and grownups. So when your mind won't switch off, you've got something that can help. Erasing thoughts and restless nights won't stand a chance. Find Oli's sleep solutions for the whole family at Oli.com. That's O-L-L-Y dot com. Let's move on to your second failure. I failed to emotionally regulate. Yeah. Whoops. Yeah. I've never had this failure before. It's so self-aware. It's something that people love about me. And it's also something about me that gets, it's got me into trouble over the years.

34:02And I always sort of think back to childhood with things, and this is years of therapy, I think, but I always sort of think, where's that come from? That I've always, I've never had any problem with expressing how I feel. I make sure everybody knows how I'm feeling. And I think it's saved me over the years. I don't bottle anything up. I wear my heart here, here, here, here, everywhere. And I hand my heart over on a little fluffy cushion and I go, just take it, take it. Like if the bin man could say to me, oh, hello, Em, you all right? I'll go, oh, I've got the worst period pains ever. I just, maybe I've got endometriosis.

34:39Oh God, I'm just, I'm really, I've got all these pains and I just, honestly, I don't stop. I also am very reactive. And I think a lot of this comes from men as well. Over the years, I've really failed to emotionally regulate when it comes to my relationships, my sexual relationships, who I'm dating, what's going on in that situation. and it's the kind of men that I've dated I've always dated very problematic troubled men who I'm trying to fix and it's like oh we're let's be toxic together let's try to fix each other and then if something goes wrong in that relationship I've reacted really massively like I could literally be and obviously not now I'm in a different situation now but back in my dating days I could have been in a I could be about to do like the biggest job of my life signing a huge contract and if I get a text saying sorry babe got to cancel tonight I would I would drop everything and I'd go I've got to go home I've got to go home I just can't I just can't um and I can't deal I just cannot deal with that kind of rejection I've as I say I've learned over the years to kind of manage that but you know what really annoys me really annoys me that I feel like all I've ever done is work on myself I am exhausted with how much I've had to work on myself but people not everybody does and I think it's so important to work on yourself because I'm the first person to admit when I and like like you said I'm self-aware I'm so self-aware and I'm the first to admit when I'm to this or to that and I do everything I can to try and change it but people don't lots of people don't take responsibility for their failures oh my god I hear you so deeply I mean I guess what that's why this podcast is so great because it's sort of taking responsibility and going this is what you know this is what I've been bad at this is what I failed at absolutely I'm interested by something you said there about how you feel your ability to share emotionally has saved you at points when's it saved you I think people people always know where they stand with me so there's never I never hold a grudge ever wow and people have yeah well and people have wronged me over the years trust me and this is where without sort of lowering the tone too much but I have forgiven people for unforgivable things that they've done to me and I believe that forgiveness is it really it's not just a cliche it really is something you kind of have to find in yourself in order to you know move on from something um that has maybe troubled you and I do I feel like my ability to forgive has done that.

37:21It doesn't really matter about their reaction. I know that I've cleansed myself of that. Growing up, I felt so lonely. I was lonely. And even though I was surrounded by people all the time and I was so loved, I was so lonely. And I remember, and me and Martha and George, we bicker about this because their reality is very different. They don't remember feeling lonely. and they kind of go why and I'm like I don't really know how to explain it I just felt I felt lonely and so over the years to me building those connections getting deep with people and like even if I meet you in a toilet you're my best friend like forever and that I think even though that's got me into trouble with my love life I think it's enabled me to keep friends and have good friendships.

38:12One of the reasons a child might feel lonely is if they're keeping a secret or protecting someone from knowing the truth about something that has happened. Yeah. Do you relate to that? Yes, completely. Because even, I think I was keeping so much from my parents when I was young. Again, it's going a little bit dark, but I was sexually assaulted, first of all, when I was 10. That was when I was first ever sexually assaulted. And that I remember being 10 years old. And from that moment, I was treated badly, appallingly by older men from that age, like throughout my life. And I think the loneliness came a lot from that.

38:55And lots of things happen that my parents to this day still don't know the detail of, you know, of how men have treated me and touched me and whispered things to me in my ear when, you know, people aren't in earshot. And I think a lot of the loneliness stemmed from that. And from that, I then developed a really unhealthy relationship with sex and with boys because I kind of lent into that behavior a little bit. And I also found that I felt I knew I was wanted and desired by men from a really young age, sexually desired. And that to me as a child, it's really confusing because I think I needed, I wanted to feel that.