Failure Throwback: Glennon Doyle

28:15That's all. And this woman came up to me afterwards. And I'll never forget her. She sat down next to me and she said, honey, I have to tell you something that someone told me in early sobriety. And that is this. If there's a secret to life, it's that life is hardest when you're doing it right. You're just finally doing it right. You're finally feeling all of your feelings. And that's really hard, which is why so few people do it. But I promise you that all feelings are for feeling, even the hard ones. And I'm telling you, Elizabeth, I know that also sounds simple, but I was like, what? Yeah. I thought I was supposed to be grateful and sweet and happy all the time, right?

29:05Yeah. It was life-shifting for me. And how did that realization affect how you parented your children in the aftermath of your first marital breakup? Well, the way my life actually works is I say these wise things on podcasts and then I promptly forget everything in my real life. Okay. So what I learned and know in my head is that all feelings are for feeling and that beautiful people are not made through lack of pain and lack of struggle, that beautiful people are made from overcoming and overcoming. What that looked like in my parenting is I will protect my children from all pain forever, that they will never feel anything, that no raindrop will fall on top of their head, right?

29:58This is none of my spiritual knowledge translated to my real life. Okay. So when I fell in love with Abby, even with all of the pain in my marriage, I initially decided that I would stay in my marriage. And I could give a lot of reasons for that, but mostly it was just that I felt that I could not hurt my children in that particular way. And then one day I was braiding my daughter Tish's hair and I looked at her and I realized, oh my God, I am staying in this marriage for her. But would I want this marriage for her? And if I would not want this marriage for her, then why am I modeling bad love and calling that good mothering?

30:48Wow. Yeah. Right? And Elizabeth, the answer is simple. It's the same as every other message given to women. It's because through osmosis, through modeling, through overt messages, I was tamed into believing that a mother is a martyr. Right? The good mothering is about slowly burying yourself. Yes. Your dreams, your emotion, your personality, your ambition, your desires, and doing that in the name of your children. which is so ridiculous, right? It's such a burden and it's such a terrible legacy to pass on to our children, right? Because then they too believe that they have to become martyrs to prove their love and it never ends.

31:33It's why Carl Jung said, the greatest burden that a child can bury is the unlived life of her parent. Yes. So yeah, eventually I just decided, okay, I just have to reject these cultural messages of goodness. You know, we all want to be good. That's because we are good. It's just that we have to define what good means for ourselves, because if we default to the cultural messages of good for women, those messages will always tell us, in one way or another, disappear. So I decided for myself that what I wanted to be for my children, I didn't want to slowly die for them. I wanted to show them how to bravely live, right?

32:11I wanted to be a model, not a martyr. And I decided that what that meant is that my children will only allow themselves to live as fully as I give myself permission to live. So that means just trying to resist settling for any relationship, institution, etc. that is less true and beautiful than the one I would want for my children.

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34:05you talk as well about the island of your family and it's funny because you're friends with heroes of mine so the idea of you Brené Brown and Liz Gilbert all sitting around for dinner is enough to make me orgasm I'm like I want to be there

34:26best sentence ever yeah you were on Brené Brown's amazing new podcast recently and you told the story of the island. And I think it's so interesting that you were talking to her about it because she's been so influential for me in terms of setting boundaries and how setting a boundary is not a negative thing. But we as women have been taught that it is. We've been taught that it's selfish and self-indulgent and somehow unfriendly. But tell us about the island when it came to something your mother said about your new family setup. Yeah, first of all, telling women not to have boundaries is same, same, right?

34:59It's just another way to say a good woman disappears. don't have needs, don't have expectations, because that's all that boundaries are, is just saying I have needs. But the thing about boundaries is that they're my best friend. Great loves of my life are Abby, the children, coffee, and boundaries. But the interesting thing about boundaries is that they are harder to hold with people that we deeply love. When I first told my parents about me and Abby, my mom was scared to death. Okay. My mom and I are best friends, just completely codependent. Okay. We talk six times a day. Most of that I don't want to change.

35:42But she was so afraid and I could hear her fear in every conversation, in every question. It was just, you know, what will the world think? How will the kids' friends treat them? What will the internet say? Just all this fear. Because mothers sometimes think that worrying is the same thing as love. It's not. But I fall into that trap too sometimes. So I found myself getting really defensive every time I talked to my mom, just like becoming seven years old again, just incessantly explaining why I was allowed to do what I wanted, why I was okay. Because I don't think that it's the hatred from enemies that shakes us from our knowing.

36:24I think it's the quiet concern of those that love us. That's what's the hardest. And one day I was talking to my mom and I heard her say, your dad and I are coming to visit next week. And I heard myself say, no, you can't come here because you are still afraid. And I can't let you bring your fear to my children because they are not afraid, right? I taught them. They were raised to know that love in every form should be celebrated and that it is best to be yourself and let the world catch up. But if you come and you bring your fear to our home, they will see it in your eyes and they will help you carry it because they love and trust you.

37:05So I have to tell you this really hard thing, mom, which is that your fear is not my family's problem. And my job as the mother here is to make sure it never becomes their problem. So go figure out your problem. And when you are ready to come to the island of our family with nothing but love and celebration, we will lower the drawbridge for you, but not one second sooner. And that was, out of all of the tellings, out of all of the telling the world about me and Abby, that was the moment, Elizabeth, that I became an adult. Yeah. Just hearing you talk about it, I would find that so terrifying. Abby, isn't that stupid?

37:50That it's just that's the thing that terrifies us. No, it's not stupid. It's universal. I know some of the fiercest activists in the world They get up on podiums in front of thousands of people. They say the things. They preach liberty and freedom. They know it. And then they come home and they cry about their moms. Yeah. It feels like the ultimate untaming. It's just a reframing. It's like, of course, the best way to honor our parents is to trustfully the women they raised. Right? And of course, if we're not doing anything they don't understand, we are not living into our place in the world. because we live in different worlds.

38:28Our parents were conditioned and programmed in a different world, right? And they had us for the future. It reminds me of that Khalil Gibran poem that's so beautiful on children that says, your children are not your children. They are life's longing for itself. It's like we are, if we're not doing anything that our parents don't fully understand, we're not doing it right. And the terrible part of that is that if our children are eventually not doing anything that we don't understand. They're not living into their place. Right? And so eventually we will have to allow them to make their own islands and hopefully just approach them with nothing but love and celebration so that they will lower the drawbridge for us.

39:09How did your mother take it? At first on that phone call, she said, I hear you and I will think about what you've said. I had the miraculous situation where my mother now, Elizabeth. For sure, Abby is her favorite daughter, and she has two other ones. Okay? She has been to now more gay pride parades than we have. She is for certain the fiercest activist of our family. She works to plan trans remembrance ceremonies. She goes to every activist meeting in her town. Something about watching me own myself. I just think that really at the heart of it, people that love us just want us to be okay. Her fear was her desperation for my okayness.

39:58And it turns out that the only way we can convince people we are okay is to just go about being okay. And so her watching me trust myself, watching us walk through the pain, but watching my family come out the other side truer and more beautiful than we've ever been, it's like that thing where you see a cheetah and it makes you return to your cheetah, right? She needed to watch me untame myself so that she could do the same thing. And yeah, it's been so beautiful. But I know a lot of people who don't get that miracle, right? And that doesn't mean that it wasn't the right thing to do. Yeah. Oh my gosh.

40:35I feel like this might be the longest podcast of all history. I'm sorry. I am it's imagine me because we're recording this remotely obviously because of lockdown but imagine me sitting at your feet just raising my face up to you to imbibe your pearls of wisdom because that's what it feels like but your second failure and I'm so glad you chose this one because I think a lot of people who listen to this can relate myself included is your failure to build up thick skin. Oh, Lord have mercy, Elizabeth. Yeah. Yeah. I have failed to do whatever that thing is that they tell you to do, which is, what is it?

41:13Keep a soft heart, but thick skin. Like, I don't know what that means. I just, I want things to mean things. And I don't understand that. It just feels like this easy thing to throw out that for me has been impossible to do. All the things you're supposed to do as an artist or a public person, I don't do. You're not supposed to read your comments. I read every single comment because I've created a community, because I've been reading comments from my community for 10 years, right? Long before any of this like bigness happened. It's because it's like breathing to me. It's like I say things off or something on social media, and then I inhale.

41:54That's like the exhale. And then I inhale from what people say back. It's a sharing thing. And because of that, I have to see some mean things. And I can't say it never gets easier because it does get a little bit easier, but it is supremely difficult, and by that I mean impossible, to be an artist whose entire being is about staying sensitive. That's what an artist has to do, is stay sensitive to the world so that you can notice things, so you can see things, so you can hear things, so you can feel things, and also be insensitive to feedback. That's not how it works for me. And I've learned that that is another thing that I can survive, right?

42:38That I've had moments where I've done things on social media, said things that have hurt people. So I've had moments where I just have had utter public failures. And what that looks like for me is not like a dusting off of it and carrying on. It's usually like a couple of days of the fetal position, right? It's like a process that is slow and painful every time. And even though there's a part of me that knows, oh, look, Glennon, look at you. You're in the time where you think that everyone will hate you forever and your life is over. I can see the process, but that doesn't make it hurt any less tragically.

43:14So yeah, I guess that is, I have learned that I'm just going to have to live that way the whole time. You said it had got easier in some respects. How has it got easier to deal with? Okay. So I think because I have been through it enough times, so I know that it won't kill me, right? It's like that thing about feeling your feelings when you realize after a time that you know that there's a process you're going through. So for me, the process looks like, First of all, if I read horrible feedback or someone hates me, first of all, I spend a little bit of time deciding that I am right and this person is wrong and that they are terrible people and that everyone is always out to get me and that no one understands me.

44:00So I have a good section of self-pity like a three-year-old. And then it starts to feel a little bit just like exhaustion. Like I just need to go to sleep, right? And then if I stay with it long enough, and let me be clear, Elizabeth, that here I'm talking about true feedback, okay? Like when people tell me all of the things that they tell women, like most of my feedback can be sorted into four categories. The first one is it's about my appearance, okay? If you're a woman who's going to show up in the world in any way, women are taught to define their worthiness by their appearance. So first they'll say a million things like that.

44:37You're too ugly. You're too pretty. You're too fat. You're too thin. You're too old. You're too young. You're too Botox. You're not Botoxed enough. Your hair's too, like it's just, it's never ending. Okay. I just thought of this one thing that I have to tell you, I've never told you before. I've never told anyone before. So one of my friends, and by the way, don't do this. Don't send your friends terrible things the internet says about them. Okay. This, but this is what one of my friends did. She sent me this freaking, I don't know if it was an article or something, but it was a picture of me on my wedding day and someone had zoomed in to my armpit and the commentary was about how gross my armpits were.

45:15Okay. So I tell you the story, Elizabeth, just to tell the audience, you cannot win. Okay. If you want to spend your life perfecting every inch on your body, including your armpit, they will still find a way. Okay. So the category of appearance, that's junk mail to me. I don't pay attention to it at all. The second category, I have feedback I reject completely is anything about my relationships. Okay. Okay. Women are also told that their worthiness lies in their standing in their relationships to other people. So incessant messages about how I'm a bad wife, about how I couldn't hold a marriage together, about how I have no friends, about how I'm a bad mom.

45:54They'll definitely get you with bad mom. So as a woman out in the world, you can listen to none of that. Okay. When you receive ridiculous feedback about your relationships, you do not ask yourself, is this true? Okay. You ask yourself, is this feedback from a person that I'm in a relationship with? Okay. So you only take feedback about your relationships from people with whom you're in actual relationship. Okay. I'm literally noting this down, by the way. Yes. Yes. No, it's so great, Elizabeth. I tell this to anybody who will, my friends, anybody who will listen to me when they decide to put their voice out in the world, because when you know what's coming, it's easier to sort, right?

46:39It's easier to know what to reject. The third category will be about your personality. You will be too, oh God, I don't know, too loud, too quiet, too know-it-all, too ditzy, just all of the things that have to do with your personality that don't have to do with your work. Because you see what's happening here. When a man puts his work out in the world, the world tends to say, is his work worthy? But when a woman puts her work out into the world, the world tends to say, wait a minute, is she worthy of putting work out into the world? Yes, totally. Okay. So the work is lost. None of the feedback's even about the freaking work, it's about you.

47:17How dare you put your work out into the world? So first, we will pick you apart and just see if you're even worthy. It will not be about your work. So third category is your personality, reject it, take none of it, which leaves you with this last category. This is really important. This is the feedback that's actually about your work. Okay? So one mistake I believe women can make is to reject all of it. Okay? You have to reject 80 % for sure. You have to reject 80 % of your feedback in those other categories. But you also have to be brave enough to bring inside that feedback that is actually about your work, right?

47:54That will make you better. And do you take that feedback about your work from anyone? So from someone? Nope. No. Okay, good. Hell to the no. No. Believe it or not, that section is also divided up. Okay. Subsections. Right. Now, some people would say, like my dear, brilliant, sage friend, Brene would say, only take advice from like your five people that you trust with your whole heart. I think she writes them down on an index card. I have a different situation because I have received criticism. Mostly it's about my activism, by the way. Art is art. So like, if you don't like it, just find another artist.

48:35Like, I don't know. I'm not going to change my art for everyone. Everyone orders different things on the menu, right? But in terms of activism, being a white woman speaking about injustice in the world, the feedback people give me about my activism is crucial. It's painful and crucial. And it often points out huge blind spots that I have. It often points out privilege that I have. It points out inherent racism that I have because of the way I was raised in this culture. It is painful. right? And if I can't take that stuff, that I'm not worthy of the title activist. So what I would say is in that category, I don't judge it by whether it's a friend or a stranger, but first, I do judge it by whether it's mean-spirited or not.

49:21And this might be different for different artists and activists, but I do not take advice or feedback or criticism from anyone who's treating me poorly in the criticism. I feel very strongly that I'm a grown-ass woman. And if you don't, know how to communicate with me, I'm certainly not going to take your advice about communication. Right? So the reason why I don't internalize feedback from people who are being mean to me is because I don't have to, because I'm the boss of my own life and I just don't have to. And how do you judge that? You just know. Everybody knows. You can read something that someone's written to you and you can tell in a minute whether it feels nasty or it feels like it's coming from a real true place, from a person who is, I'm not saying is kissing your ass at all.

50:08I'm just saying that you can tell when communication is direct or when it's nasty, right? So I dismiss all nastiness. I am the judge of that. And I don't explain myself. And then the ones that I can feel are delivered with respect. I can usually tell because they hurt in a different way. They hurt not in a mean way, they hurt in a true way. Like, you know, when someone says something, it's like in the very beginning when Liz was like, this sucks. And I was like, you are correct. This does suck. This is painful, but I already knew that, you know? So I would say that truly, of course, there are no real numbers here, but Elizabeth, out of a hundred pieces of feedback that I get, I'd say four of them I will allow into my heart and head and work.

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52:27installed by independent contractors see associate for details contiguous us only

52:36another thing that i know you have talked about in the past which i find super interesting so as well as this podcast i wrote a book called how to fail in which i oh do you're so lovely in which i detailed some of my own failures and one of the most mean-spirited to use a word reviews that I ever had about that seem to be complaining that I hadn't failed enough and I hadn't suffered enough. And I feel that there's such a thing. I mean, I know that you and I speak from a position of great privilege and that we're white women and we have a roof over our heads. But there does seem to be a thing where women aren't allowed a public voice unless they've really suffered.

53:14And I don't know who gets to decide that. And what does that mean? Exactly. Yeah, it's the suffering Olympics. We are all competing in the suffering Olympics and only gold medalists are allowed to speak. To me, that's one of those and both things. I hear that kind of feedback a lot and I understand it. I get it. I get how a woman who was raised in my country under completely different circumstances, is my parents were both public school teachers. So we had enough money to have the things we needed, which gave me all kinds of opportunity. It gave me therapy. It gave me medicine that I needed. They had the skills to help me get into college, even though I was kind of a crappy student.

54:01They knew how to help me fill out forms. They were part of the educational system. I had people to fall back on when I failed dramatically. When my addiction took over to the point where I couldn't function on my own. I had people there who had resources to help me. So I really can understand how it would feel to look at that situation from outside and feel a certain way about it. And yet I will never, ever let it stop me from speaking my truth about my life. So I just think that there are things in the world that we don't have to be either or about, that we can say, I see that, I acknowledge that, and yet I will continue.

54:45And also you continue in a way that takes that into account. So you integrate that. You integrate that into your work in a way. That's why that was so important to me to make much of Untamed. So much of this work is about, yes, freeing yourself, but then also turning around and seeing in what ways you were freer than people who are standing right next to you. Yeah. Right? It's like bringing that knowledge of people's different perspective into your work in ways that make you feel fiercer and not more afraid. Amazing. I mean, that's another lie that we're told is that we have to be competitive with each other as women.

55:23And actually, I think what your work is so good at doing is showing that a rising tide raises all boats, particularly if you come from a marginalized experience. Oh. First of all, we can be forgiven for that. I mean, whenever people are like, oh, I just – I'm a guy's girl. I don't like women. First of all, I want to call 911. Okay? I want to call freaking 911 when I hear that. It makes me sweat when people say that. You said that. Yeah. Oh, my God. I hate it so much. I know. I know. But I get it too. I can understand because, you know, some people feel like I've experienced this. You know, why are women such backstabbers?

56:00Why do we fight each other? Why, why, why? And I mean, the answer is that there's a why. The why is because if you experience life as a table, right? And there's 10 seats at that table. And at every single table, eight of those seats are for men and two are for women. You are going to over time be conditioned to fight other women for those two seats, right? Why are guys more relaxed? Why can they work better together because they have eight fucking chairs. It's super simple, this idea of scarcity. We've been tamed into it. It's been planted in us and among us. I don't know. The women that I work alongside with and work with, it's not that we don't feel that.

56:44I think it's important to admit that you feel that as a knee-jerk reaction. I still, Elizabeth, after all of my decades-long resistance of that and working to lift up other women. And I still can feel that knee-jerk reaction of, oh my God, she got that. That's less for me. Oh my God, she got that. Like, right? I'm so glad you're saying this because I feel that and I feel so ashamed that I feel that sometimes. Yeah, we all do. There's only two kinds of women, the ones who feel that way and the ones who are light. I'll feel that way. Because of our conditioning, we feel that way. And part of my work is to just not settle on that knee-jerk reaction.

57:27I really think that what our knee-jerk reaction is, is our conditioning. It's not our truest self, right? So when we can question that knee-jerk reaction and remind ourselves, this is the part where you think that there's only a little bit in the world and she's going to get the thing that you were meant for and everyone's going to forget about you forever. Okay. Take a second there. And then we move on. And the way that I have learned to move on is I just think that that feeling of scarcity, what it usually is when I look deeper is it's admiration. It's like admiration that's holding its breath.

58:02Right? And what I have figured out is the way this manifests for me is I will read something amazing that a woman wrote or something amazing that a woman made. And part of me will go, I wish I wrote that. I wish I made that. I wish I was getting the attention she's getting for this. Okay. Yada, yada. What solves that for me, I'd say 90 % of the time, is I either reach out to that woman and tell her what the thing meant to me. Or if she's out of reach and I can't do that, I share the thing that she made with my people. Okay. That is scary for me because mostly I'm thinking, but I just want my people to think I'm smarter than this person.

58:41It's never ending. But what that does is it moves me from this feeling that I can only describe as this tightness, this restrictiveness, this breath holding to this wider place of abundance and there is enough room for all of us. And we create the abundance. It's not just there. We have to create it. And every time we share something beautiful that another woman has done or told her that the thing she made is beautiful or we actually create that abundance that we so wish were true. What about if someone creates something that you don't think is that good, but it's getting loads and loads of attention?

59:21Well, then you just secretly hate them. Okay, Elizabeth, that's what you do. Do you have people like that in your life? Just make me feel better. Okay, good. And I am sure that, you know, soon I'm going to become just evolved enough to also feel expansive about those particular people. Probably like next Tuesday, I think. I'm just going to nail that. But I do have a few of those, sister. I sure do. And I talk to no one about those people except my sister and my wife. Okay. Well, tell me when you've evolved to a place of total enlightenment and then help. Next Tuesday. Okay. Come back on Wednesday and tell me how to do it.

1:00:00Perfect. Your final failure is about your failure to love and trust your body. And you wrote in this email to me, even after all these oh so many years and therapists and books. So yeah, I mean, clearly it's a historical issue for you because as a child, you were a very beautiful child. And yet it seems to me that you didn't believe it inside. Well, I think I did believe it when I was really little. And then every girl turns 12 and everything goes to hell. I think when you are taught that your existence and worthiness are based on your prettiness and then you lose it, it's devastating. Whatever you're taught, your worthiness is based on.

1:00:42If it's not just your existence, it's going to cause trauma in your life. So yeah, I don't know. I know that this message about you have to stay small. It's like I've freed myself in so many areas of that. I don't anymore believe that my voice has to stay small. I don't believe that my ambition has to stay small. But I have been thus far unable to get the memo about my body not having to stay small to really settle into my bones. And there are times in my life where it gets better and I feel freer and stronger and then it gets worse. And I think that maybe right now it's feeling really heavy because the more out of control things tend to get, the more I find myself obsessing about controlling my body.

1:01:30So I'm on kind of like a long time here where, you know, I was preparing for the book tour and I was going to have to go out into the world and be super vulnerable for a long time. And that always makes me, we call it get weird in my family. Like I'm getting weird, which is like I'm thinking too much. It's sort of a compulsive thinking. Yeah. I think like from the outside, it might look like I'm kind of normal in my eating and my exercise. But from the inside, it feels like kind of constantly being harassed by this incessant reminder that you need to worry about your food and your body. And it's like this prank caller that's coming from inside the house all the time.

1:02:09And so I don't know. My hope is that at some point I will be able to truly love my body. And by the way, that doesn't mean to me anything that has to do with shape. Okay. I'm talking about like a deeper love that has to do with letting go of control. You know, I think control is the opposite of love. I used to think that I could control people and love people at the same time, but now I know I can't because love implies trust. and we only control things and people that we don't trust. So my wish for myself is that I will get to the point where I love my body, meaning that I trust it enough to just feed it, move it and let it be whatever it is supposed to be.

1:02:57And what is your greatest fear if you don't do those things? And if you don't exercise and you don't eat properly, what are you most scared of that will happen to your body? That's such a good question. I don't know. I guess that it just gets out of control. I mean, this idea of control has been a theme of my life. I've learned it in my marriage. You know, my second marriage, I'm doing so differently than my first. I think I tried to control every aspect of my first marriage. I would have just called myself a leader. Okay. But when I married Abby, one day she said, I was doing my controlling thing where I think that no one notices, but I'm like manipulating things behind the scenes.

1:03:39And she said, you know, when you do that, it makes me so sad because it makes me feel like you don't trust me. And I trust you so much and respect you so much. And I want you to trust and respect me. And I was like, damn, I guess I have not really been loving before because I've always been trying to control things behind the scenes. I've never really fully trusted anybody. I thought I had to plan, control, worry my way to everyone's happiness. I was earning it. Yeah. Right? And so I don't know. All I can tell you is that I have this control issue with my body, which I know has to do with, it has something to do with this wider idea of just embracing things falling apart.

1:04:24You know that term wabi-sabi in Japanese culture just means like just letting things be what they are and decay in the beautiful way that they're supposed to and finding beauty in the uncontrolled. It must be enlightenment, which is coming next Tuesday. I just think that is the message. I mean, we've been talking so much about the cages women are held in and the social conditioning. And I think weight and body image is one of the deepest, most ingrained messages that is so difficult to get rid of. And I relate to exactly what you're saying. And I think for me, the fear of losing control, whatever that means over my body is the fear of ending up unlovable, which is such a strange thing.

1:05:14But I think it's because I've had a number of intimate relationships have just ended without explanation from nowhere for me. and so a lot of my life was spent trying to mitigate against that in advance like if I could be totally perfect then no one would ever have an excuse to leave me and that included how I looked and it's a very difficult thing to rid yourself of even though my relationship now as I'm sure yours is is with this wonderful secure person who loves me for the person I am rather than the shape I come in. I hope. Anyway, better ask. Don't ask. Don't ask. No, exactly. That's so freaking beautiful that it all comes down to lovability.

1:05:57Yeah. And worthiness and how that really at the end of the day, it has to do with our own lovability. Yes. Which it's proof because you know that your person, I mean, dear God, Abby would be so freaking happy if I just eat more burgers with her? Like if I would just, she wants me to be free more than anything, you know? So we know that it really doesn't have at the end of the day to do with anybody else. It's about self-love and self-worthiness. Oh, Glennon. I mean, as I said, I could talk to you for weeks on end, but you're going to come back on next Wednesday and just tell me the truth of enlightenment.

1:06:33So it's fine. Do you, Brené Brown and Elizabeth Gilbert ever have dinner, the three of you? Oh, God, I feel like I haven't had dinner with anybody for a long time. You know what? The three of us have never sat down for dinner together. But I'm going to email them after this happens and tell them that it is now a must. It's destined. And if that ever happens, please, can I come? I don't have to speak. I won't eat. I'll just like plank them in the corner. I will add that to the email. I think you are as close a woman as I know to a guru. I thank you from the bottom of my heart for Untamed which is a beautiful work and it's been so brave and honest of you to write it and I thank you especially for coming on How to Fail and just making my day thank you so so much Glennon Doyle this conversation has made my day I have to tell you I loved every minute of it you are beautiful and wonderful and thank you for this opportunity

1:07:35Thank you.