Failure Throwback: Jamie Dornan

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0:24Hello, it's Elizabeth here. And to continue my seasonal offering, here's another of my favorite How to Fail episodes from the archive. This time it's the wonderful Jamie Dornan, which was recorded in November 2020. I adore this episode for a number of reasons. One is that Jamie Dornan turned up to my house and that's in and of itself is a cause to celebrate. But also it was one of the first interviews I recorded in between lockdowns where we could finally do it face to face as long as we kept a social distance. So that was very special. And then the other special thing about it is that we discovered we had so much in common.

1:06Jamie Dornan and I actually went to school together at the same school in Belfast, and we share some really interesting memories about that time. Thank you so much for listening. I hope you love it. And here he is, the man himself, Jamie Dornan. The actor Jamie Dornan once said that mass appreciation doesn't always equate to something good. It's true, of course, but this is a man who has had to get used to mass appreciation, whether he likes it or not. Starring as Christian Grey in all three of the Fifty Shades of Grey movie adaptations brought him to the worldwide attention of millions of excitable fans who had devoured the E.L.

1:45James books on which the franchise was based. But Dornan has always been a multifaceted actor. In the critically acclaimed BBC drama The Fall, his portrayal of Paul Spector, a serial killer with an incongruously happy family life, was extraordinary both for its chilling nature and for the way it toyed with our preconceptions. Later, he played photographer Paul Conroy in A Private War, the biopic of the late great war correspondent Marie Colvin. It was, Dornan recalled, the most emotional job I will ever do. He and the real life Conroy are still friends. Despite his success, Dornan did not start out as an actor.

2:28He was born in Hollywood, the one in County Down, and was the third child of Lorna, a nurse, and Jim, one of Ireland's leading obstetricians, a man who has delivered over 6 ,000 babies. After school in Belfast, Dornan became a model, and a highly successful one at that. The New York Times dubbed him the Golden Torso after he appeared in campaigns for Calvin Klein and Hugo Boss. And yet Dornan has said in the past that he never had much luck with the girls at school because he looked too young. His sister's friends called him cute, which he hated. Today he is married to the musician Amelia Warner and the couple have three daughters.

3:09They live their lives out of the public eye and when Dornan is recognised back home in Northern in Ireland, it is more often than not because someone wants to tell him that his father delivered them. This suits him just fine. As he said in an interview with the Belfast Telegraph in 2014, nobody sane wants to be famous. Jamie Dornan, welcome to How to Fail. Thank you very much. I didn't know where to look there, but I got through the introduction. You were visibly squirming and you're actually blushing slightly. It's very sweet. Yeah, I mean, I'm not someone who loves hearing praise about themselves, I think.

3:49I find it very difficult. I find it, yeah, embarrassing, I think. Embarrassed by praise. How sane do you feel today, given that quote about you'd have to be insane to want to be famous? I feel like often I don't feel very famous. I only ever feel famous when I'm somewhere where people know I'm going to be. And there's a response to that, to that understanding of the location, whether that's a premiere or whatever it is for a movie I've done, and then you see people have come to support you and the fellow cast, whatever it is, the movie itself, and you see a collective of people there for you and a hunger sometimes maybe for you, that that's when it's real.

4:32And all other times I don't get that. I don't feel like that. I don't think I put myself in a position to experience that. So I usually feel pretty sane because I don't feel that famous. Has it ever got scary, your level of fame? No. I mean, I remember saying, I did this interview for like GQ or Details or something, before the first Fifty Shades came out. And they said, what's your biggest fear with the movie coming out? And it was nothing about how it would be received, which we knew would be great for the people who love the book, and the total opposite of that, for people who don't understand the book or weren't up for the movies.

5:08And it was very true to that, the response. but I remember saying I was scared of someone killing me on the red carpet. Wow, that was probably unexpected for the journalist. It was, she was quite taken aback by it. But at that time I genuinely believed it. I thought, someone's probably just going to kill me here. It was just a dark place to put your mind. But I must have believed it to say it. Well, when you were thinking that, was that after you'd played Paul Spector in The Fall? Ah yes so my mind's probably more open to darkness than it had been previously and more accepting and more knowing what people are capable of maybe as a result of playing someone like that.

5:51That performance was so phenomenal Jamie. I loved The Fall so so much and you mentioned there that idea of going to quite a dark place. How much research did you do into the mind of a serial killer? Because as I said in the introduction, one of the fascinating things was that Paul Spector existed as a family man alongside committing these brutal crimes. Yeah. I mean, it's funny you said it there, like in terms of getting inside the mind of a serial killer. The first book I read was called Inside the Mind of a Serial Killer. Alan Cubitt, who created the show, changed my life. He sent me a few different books that he sort of had recommended to read.

6:31and I read them. They're not hugely digestible books, I've got to say. You know, they're tough. They're not enjoyable to read, really. They're not, I couldn't put it down situations. You know, they're kind of, I can't wait to put it down because I want to go to sleep in 10 minutes. I don't want to go to sleep with this in my mind. But hugely beneficial to trying to build the character and take not all aspects from these particular subjects that they were about and other guys that I've been told to sort of look into beyond those books. take bits from them really but build on what Alan had created and what I felt was appropriate to take from what I'd read but make it its own thing you know because every one of these monsters does it their own way much of the way Spectre did it was on the page already and I think that aspect of it that fact that he was a grief counselor by day and you know this strong you know family man Alan and I argued about this I always felt that he did have love for his kids particularly his daughter there's a special bond there Alan and he probably right because he created it only he really knows but he felt that Spectre was incapable of love but um I always tried to insert love into those scenes with with the kids and I think that's what made it all the darker you know was seeing that juxtaposition between the loving family man and the serial killer I think that's what made it hard to watch for people you're surrounded by women in your life aren't you I have from birth to right this day, I've only been surrounded by women at home.

8:05What's it like being the father to three daughters? Because I often wonder how much of what we stereotypically think of wrongly as sort of girl stuff and boy stuff is innate. Sure. Listen, I wouldn't have a clue how to parent a boy. I just wouldn't. It's not what I know. All I know is three little magical beings that we share our home with that fuel our every move. And there's been times where one kid, particularly our eldest, has been leaning more towards a sort of tomboyish attitude and been into things that you wouldn't classically expect a girl to be into maybe. And that got me thinking that, well, it really is like they're shaped into, you know, being into girls' things and boys' things.

8:53Maybe it's not innate, but then that ends up just being a bit of a phase I think I can only speak for my own kids and then they do fall in line with what's kind of expected of little girls a little bit I mean the eldest would be less so I mean the youngest we don't really know yet but the middle one is definitely more girly in a sort of classic sense a sort of terrible phrase than the elder one but society is so much no matter how much we try to change the sort of goalposts in terms of like trying to tell people their one gender the next we're miles off but not affecting kids you know it's still everything is pink and blue as much as we try in our own home to not advocate that we can't control everything they see and hear and when they're at school and play dates or wherever it is or watching tv that influence is beyond our control a lot of the time you know i feel like i'm here to be a father to girls i feel like that's my my calling you know.

9:51That's such a lovely thing to say. That's just what I have and I feel like it is meant. I do. I feel like I'm meant to be a daddy to those three wee girls. Tell me a bit about how you feel on failure generally and then we all get onto your specific failures but is it something that you've always embraced or that you found quite difficult to confront? I think probably as I've got older being more capable of dealing with it kind of like everything in life the older you get the more capable you become learning along the way I guess is part of that and I'm a believer in that with failure you know you're sort of nothing without your failures and there's nobody who gets to any kind of considered high position or impressive position from the outside looking in who hasn't failed massively it builds us it makes us it colors us and it's essential and I I think I wear my failures like a badge of honor a little bit because there's so fucking many of them, you know, particularly as an actor.

10:52You know, there just is, you know, there's very few people who fresh out of the blocks just get a great gig. I mean, funnily enough, my first ever job was a brilliant gig. And then you realize that it's actually not really like that. And then you fail a lot in between, but it stands you in way better stead for when good things do eventually happen. And sometimes they don't happen. I have a career where vast majority I don't want to say fail but like maybe don't get to continue on that path because of lack of work there's horrible statistics about actors at any given moment there's only like four or five percent employed there's none employed at the moment during lockdown I struggle sort of how to judge failure some people especially in my game where there's people who maybe consider their career failure because they're always striving to have the same career someone else or better career than someone else or when they left drama school or whatever it is they thought they'd have a certain career and they don't but they have a career and they put food on the table and they provide and they have a mortgage and all the things that people strive for but in their head it's a failure because they expected something else for themselves but from the outside looking in people are like you're a huge success you know you're never wanting to work you can provide but everyone's version of success is personal to them I think so everyone's failure is personal to them you're so right and our expectations and how we express them to ourselves and our internal narrative that's the key to being happier I think managing expectation so that you're not feeling disappointed when you don't reach it exactly the key but do you regret any of your fashion failures Jamie I only ask because because there are quite a few paparazzi photos of you from the early days in your career when you were dating Keira Knightley, who I'm obsessed with, and you were wearing sort of seatbelt belts and kind of baggy jeans and vans trainers.

12:45Listen, I don't like you putting an S and making belts plural because I had one seatbelt belt. It's very infamous. I have a stylist I work with when I'm doing stuff, Jean Yang, who's a magician, amazing woman. And she is based out in LA and she styles me when I have press and stuff to do these days. and she brings up that green belt so often. It's hard to defend the indefensible. It wasn't glaringly bad at that time, I don't think, that belt. Am I allowed to talk about another podcast on this podcast? I don't know, only if you criticise it. No, I'm kidding. Of course you're allowed. My wife obviously listens to your podcast, but she also listens to The Hilo, which I've listened to a bit myself.

13:28And I know those girls have... Millie will just come in sometimes chuckling and say, yeah, they brought you up and they were sort of digging through old paparazzi, which you're about to do right in front of me now, which is dreadful. Seatbelt belt. I actually had a seatbelt belt. So you're okay. You're in good company. I remember being delighted with myself when I bought that in Camden one day. Because also you wore baggy trousers then, like baggy, big, dreadful looking jeans. Levi's Twisted, I remember buying those, thinking they were class. And they really, really weren't. I remember being with Kira one day and we were walking through Camden and they were genuinely falling off my arse, which is kind of how I wore them anyway.

14:03but it was to a point where I mean it was like I needed help and there you know shining in the sunlight was this green awful shade of green seat belt belt and I thought bingo here we go that'll do the job not only will it serve a purpose I'll look great turns out I didn't it's a bit like when you were talking about how fatherhood is your meaning like that seat belt was you were destined the two of you to find each other. Yeah, yeah, I think so. I mean, I was pretty delighted when I lost it, I have to say. I don't know what became of it. That's one of those things you probably give to a charity shop and they don't even put out on their stall.

14:44They're probably just saying, no, listen, no one's going to want that. You said in past interviews that Keira Knightley gave you very good advice on how to handle fame. Not great fashion advice, but she did tell you, I think, to keep your childhood friends close. Yeah, and Ciara was good at that and still is very close with Bonnie, who's her best friend from school. She had a nightmare time of it when we were kids. She was literally 18, I was 21 when we met, and it was 17 years ago now. She just got an awful time of it. Paparazzi were horrendous and it really was that every single day leaving her apartment or my apartment and hiding in bushes and all that sort of stuff, it was kind of gross.

15:24It wasn't kind of gross. It was really, really gross and invasive and not fun for young, very, very young people to be going through, for anyone to be going through really. But particularly vulnerable 18 year old girl who's only trying to work out the world, you know, and then you've got to deal with that every day. I didn't have that issue, I have to say, because I have always had the same group of mates from school. I just had then and still have the same group now, mostly boys and a few girls from school that I'm just are sort of everything to me, really. So I'm very lucky and fortunate in that way.

15:56Talking of school, that brings us on to your first failure, which is your failure to do that well at school. And fun fact, we both went to the same school. Yes. Although I am older than you, so I don't think we ever coincided because I left in the third year. But you went to school in Methody in Belfast. Yeah. So tell me what happened about that school. I don't look back on school and think that it was a failure because when I was at school I felt that I was there to gain friends and play sport and sort of come out the other side with this sense of being part of a group and having a structure of friends in my life.

16:39I was very aware of that at school I really felt like I should be I want to be like friends with everyone and it wasn't even to be popular it was just to actually have friendship and probably particularly boys because I have two sisters and I was always sort of longing for brothers basically not that listen I love my sisters are brilliant but you do there's a part of you that always thinks if you've only got one sex siblings of like what would it be like to have the other I really wasn't at school in my head to get an education that was just not it's terrible I tell my kids very differently now as a parent but I didn't see it as school being about that as much as my parents tried to drill into me that that's very much what school is meant to be about I didn't see it that way and as a result I did no work I really mean that in the truest sense of the word no work I really didn't I don't say that with any pride at all as I said before it's not a message I will pass on to my kids but you know when it came to like revision for stuff and your mates would always be like, yeah, I've done nothing.

17:42Yeah, absolutely. I've just done nothing. I'm not ready for this exam at all. And I'd be going, no, I've done nothing. And I'd be like, yeah, no, me too. No, no, I'm serious. I've literally, literally done nothing. I haven't opened a book. You know, if I've had study time, my dad comes in to check an hour later to make sure, you know, I was literally like sort of making, you know, study graphs and coloring stuff in and, you know, mucking about my Game Boy or something, you know, just anything but revision. and the proof was in the pudding a wee bit like I didn't do very well in my exams and all my friends who said they hadn't done work but actually had done did a bit better than me and then everyone else who worked very hard did a lot better than me I also had an issue with school about how exams were like I always felt like it was kind of just a memory test a lot of time you're being prepped for the particular questions that were going to come up sometimes the exact questions that were going to come up and the teacher would kind of have a sense of what it was going to be even for the state exams not even for the in school like the mocks and stuff by the way which is an easy way like I could have just learned those answers and done the work and memorize stuff you see the relief of people when they open their exam paper and they'll be like oh yeah it came up I would never even have that relief because I wouldn't even have bothered to learn and revise and remember all this stuff and like I didn't do terribly at school like I did enough to pass my GCSEs I did enough to come back from my A-levels just with a bit of negotiating here and there but I struggled with the sort of structure of our school and I felt that I would have potentially done better in a different school where whatever strengths I had were harnessed a wee bit differently I have a lot of good things to say about Matthew because as I say I've still got all my best mates in the world from that school and from a couple other schools in Belk us but friends from when I was a kid but that whole structure of it with the sort of donning the big black capes and the silly hats and putting this massive blockage between students and the teachers and making them so unapproachable and terrifying I just don't think that's the way a school should be and I understand that that comes from trying to insert respect in the kids so that you will respect these people who are in charge of you and you will respect your elders and stuff.

19:57It actually makes me do the opposite. You'd have my respect if you smiled at me and knew my name and were wearing normal fucking clothes and not some fucking sinister black cape. Do you know what I mean? Like, I just, I've always really struggled with that, you know? And even when we, early days, when we were going to see some schools for our eldest, we were to see this school and the headmaster was saying, you know, we're very relaxed here, you know, the kids, it's all first name terms. I was saying all the right things I want to hear. And I said something along those lines of like, I've always found it very strange with that sort of us and them thing that teachers put at my school very much so that like, you know, I don't know how to say it really because I did have a good time at school.

20:40But I... It sounds like you, which is interesting because I wouldn't initially have thought this about you, but like you were a bit of a rebel. I wouldn't say I was a rebel. I was sort of maybe trying to get to that. I wasn't badly behaved at school, but I did struggle with a lot of the sort of conforming at school and that whole thing of like, if one of those teachers, the headmaster, the vice headmaster, whatever it is, headmistress, was walking down the corridor, like they were so on you about your shirt being like an inch untucked or, you know, something, your collar being up a little bit because you've sort of thrown it on after PE class or whatever.

21:13So if you saw one of those teachers walking down the corridor, you were terrified. That shouldn't be the case. You shouldn't be terrified. of your teachers I feel like I was always on my shirt untucked or whatever so I wasn't a bad person but I struggled with that sort of conforming to the rules that that particular school set for me and in the way they studied and the way you're harnessed in class because I didn't think I was stupid but I felt like I was made to feel I was stupid quite a lot at that school and the school I went to and you went to was very much like you're either going to be a doctor or a lawyer or you're going to work in business and there was really genuinely nothing else talked about that was just the way it was and maybe slightly about the time it was too but if you sort of uttered the idea of doing anything outside of those three vocations you're kind of laughed out of the room you just weren't listened to not that I was sitting there going I want to be an actor I really didn't think I want to be the golden torso I want to be that yeah that's a that's a massive aim for for a kid from Belfast I want to be the golden torso it's not as if I get it but I never felt stupid but I felt that I had something to give that maybe could have been harnessed better or seen maybe by teachers and stuff you know so interesting talking to you about it because I had forgotten how terrifying methody was from that perspective my memory of it was very much I need to do well at exams to get approval yeah and that was a kind of habit that shaped the rest of my life in quite a negative way because I thought if I just work hard I'll get approval and that will make me feel better about myself and obviously that never really happened my memory was much more because I've always spoken with this English accent that I didn't feel included or welcomed at all in my peer group so actually Methody for me was not about friends at all it was about feeling really isolated and sad and probably terrified as you say because it was so regimented if we could switch your experience of my experience or we could combine the two if you use them yeah it'd be like I mean they'd be delighted with us would be like the perfect product that they've created the exam side of it my mother died just after my GCSEs and then four of my best mates were killed in a car accident all from my year at school the following summer I wasn't in a great place I've got to say in my head and that's when I was talking about we had these negotiations I'd done okay in my GCSEs but my mum was dying the whole way through and I wasn't and I wasn't doing any work anyway but that had sort of become this like other huge factor when it came to working out what I would do next in terms of A-levels and stuff and we came to this deal that I would stay at school doing my A-levels at Methody but I'd board for two years we had a boarding department it's actually quite good if you've gone through school your whole school life as a day people and there's a boarding department at that school you're always fascinated by what goes on in there you know when they go behind that wee door what happens down there like it's just a whole other world that you just aren't privy to so you get to do that once you're a bit more sure of yourself and you're 16 17 18 and you're probably at the right end of the totem pole in terms of what happens in boarding and the bullying that goes on in every boarding school probably and I played rugby and stuff and that was like help but in boarding to go in and be in the rugby team you knew you weren't going to get messed about to be honest so I didn't do well mate I was I was about to say I did okay I didn't do I got CDE I think but I got enough to get into a university that I didn't want to go to but I was sort of forced to go not forced to go to but like it just seemed like the done thing like what we're saying about that type of school is like you chose the right A-levels to stay in the same path to get to this certain goal which always struck me as quite a boring goal and the only thing I ever ever knew about myself growing up was that I didn't want to work in an office it's the only thing I've ever truly known about myself I just don't have the right patience up Actitude, I don't really know how to categorize it, but I just knew that I didn't want to do that.

25:14I'm not saying that means I wanted to be an actor or anything else. Frivolous is that, but I knew that I didn't want to do that. And all of these things I was being led towards were kind of pushing me in that direction. So I didn't do very well on my A-levels. And then I went to uni that I kind of only went to because I got in to do a marketing degree in absolutely no interest. You know, my school would have been kind of happy with that because it's something that could end in a sort of relatively serious job. and the whole time I felt like I was sort of doing, making those decisions against my will.

25:43I guess this sort of comes back to in terms of why I think it ended up being good for me, sort of failing at school, is had I worked, had I really taken those exams seriously, those mock exams, those GCSEs, your A-levels, and I mean, even A-levels, I swear to God, I'm not doing it to sound. It's not even cool, even if I didn't do any work from A-levels. Nothing, I mean, literally nothing. went to uni I went to nine hours of uni five of them in freshers week so then I spent eight months and I went to four hours of university in eight months I played rugby four days a week and drank a lot I had a good time I've got to say but I knew I wasn't on the right path had I done better in my A-levels and then gone to uni and done a course I really wanted to do and done very well and come out of a good degree I'd be on a very different path I just wouldn't be happy so actually that failure at school for me not for everyone obviously but for me worked to my favor in a really big way so I want to come back to what happened next but I just want to pause and acknowledge what you went through as a 16 year old with your mother dying and then your four friends die in a car crash and I'm so so sorry and how do you deal with that grief at that age I had counselling, very open to admit that.

27:05I didn't actually until the accident I don't think which is 13 months after my mum had died which had a huge impact on well the entire country really it was a very big horrific event but particularly you know my friendship group obviously and that's not true I had had a bit of counselling after mum died before that and then that happened and I had more counselling because you don't really have a clue you sort of don't have a clue what's going on in the world anyway when you're 16 17 and it's a lot of change happening at that time in your life and a lot of very big decisions are being made about your future at that age and weirdly in a way maybe not being able to totally focus on that in a way that other kids may have been was a benefit to me in hindsight.

27:55If you're trying to claw to take any kind of positive out of such a horrendous situation. But it was so bleak, clearly, and affects you every day. I mean, actually, I've had a very tearful week, honestly, about my mum particularly. I'm writing a script at the moment, and we've just finished the first draft and now going through it. And second drafting it, I'm writing it with a very friend of mine. and we are two main sort of protagonists in the movie are kids who've lost their parents and when they're teenagers and so much of it I haven't even been accepting of the fact that that happened to me it's really weird and then I'll finish the day and I'm like writing about these kids talking to each other trying to help each other through what that grief must be like and I've been sort of blanking it I guess as some sort of defence mechanism probably and then feeling sort of bereft at the end of the day and my writing partner will see it.

28:49He'll be like, you've got to stop. And I'll be like, yeah, okay. And then I'll like cry for an hour. It's been the maddest experience, but also quite cathartic and good, you know, ultimately, I think. I don't want to upset you further, but I also, I'm aware that when people lose someone and they're in the public eye, that they often get asked about the experience of that loss for them and what happened afterwards. But I just wanted to offer a chance for you to say what your mum was like? I mean, she was incredible. I mean, very beautiful, like truly beautiful looking, a restingly beautiful looking woman.

29:27An amazing smile, very quick-witted, incredibly glamorous. You know, my mum's from a farm in Portadown, but you wouldn't know it talking to her. My whole family, like my sister's sound very different to me and my mum did too. and my dad inherited this slightly posh accent thing. And my mum, considering she grew up in Portadown, she really got far away from Portadown in her accent. But it was all part of the way she carried herself and the sort of glamour that she had. It's a very odd thing and not a very nice thing to have to admit that there's many aspects of my mum that I don't remember. Truly just don't have a very strong recollection.

30:09And I use my sisters a lot and my dad to try to build on the memories I have. of mum because they're fleeting for me to be honest and this is in a time you know mum died in 98 it's before you filmed absolutely everything on your phone and you know there's not a huge amount of sort of documentary footage let's say of my mum so and I love it like when something does come into my mind I'll get this like little nugget that comes into my mind of something I had forgotten that my sister will mention to me or something and I love that and then I try to harness that as best I can, make sure I don't forget that again.

30:47My dad's very proud and loves the line of work I've fallen into and everything, but my mum would have really got a serious kick out of it.

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32:031998 then was a time of extraordinary transition and grief for you personally. and politically a lot happened in Northern Ireland. They signed the Good Friday Agreement. I know what it was like living there then, but I would love to know what your experience was of going to school in Belfast and how aware you were of what is diminishingly referred to as the Troubles. Yeah. Funny, isn't it, how meek that makes it sound, the Troubles. I've never shied away from how middle class my upbringing was. it was about as middle class as you can get in the north of Ireland but in the same breath you're growing up in Belfast and you're going to school in the middle of Belfast and there's no one who grew up or lived in that country during those times who wasn't affected by the troubles no matter what your situation was.

32:59Even things like how normal trying to plan to go into town obviously before mobile phones and stuff on a Saturday we always met outside McDonald's in the centre of town just to wander around on a Saturday afternoon. And the amount of times you'd phone the house phone of your friend because you'd seen on news there's a bomb scare. I mean, that was kind of in my head every weekend. I guess, did you see the news? Yeah, there's a bomb scare there, so not going into town today. I mean, the idea of that now, honestly, how commonplace that sentence was. And, you know, my dad worked at the Royal his whole life, which is, you know, on the Falls Road in West Belfast and delivered, as you said, at the start of this, over 6 ,000 babies in Northern Ireland.

33:42That's not 6 ,000 Catholic babies, 6 ,000 Protestant babies. That is a real mix of everything. So I feel like I was brought up in a very liberal household where religion was very rarely mentioned. I think we sort of went to church a little bit in the beginning of our lives. I don't think I went after the age of seven. And I think it was only, as talking to dad and I, that it was only because my mum and my dad's parents were very religious and it was sort of keeping up appearances with them still around that we kept that up. And I never grew up feeling like I was on one side or the other. I didn't understand it.

34:17And actually, a very good thing about Methody was it was very mixed. When most people here or in England or anywhere else, they hear mixed, I think you mean boy-girl, but it was very mixed Catholic-religant at Methody and many other denominations, which was a great thing, If I think of my best mates from school, we're literally 50-50, probably slightly edging more Catholic. And we all grew up in a generation where you wanted to distance yourself from even that, even knowing what each other are. But truth be told, it's still totally divided countries. Only 3 % of schools are mixed, segregated. And there's still areas that Catholics will never live in, areas Protestants will never live in, particularly only really in the working class areas.