How To Date: Communication - dating dos and don’ts

0:03When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans. Send event invites and pin messages so no one forgets mom's 60th. And never miss a meme or milestone. All protected with end-to-end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp. Message privately with everyone. Learn more at whatsapp.com. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Checking off the boxes on your to-do list is a great feeling. And when it comes to checking off coverage, a State Farm agent can help you choose an option that's right for you.

0:42Whether you prefer talking in person, on the phone, or using the award-winning app, it's nice knowing you have help finding coverage that best fits your needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. How to Date is proudly sponsored by Morrisons. Welcome back to How To Date, the podcast that teaches you what you need to know about navigating modern romance. I'm podcaster and author Elizabeth Day. And I'm Mel Schilling, Relationship Coach. And every week we aim to give you the skills you need to show up as yourself on the apps and in real life. And I just wanted to let you know that if you don't want to wait each week for new episodes, please join our wonderful community of subscribers where you can binge all episodes now ad-free all at once.

1:31Just follow the link in the show notes. Mel, welcome back, my darling. How are you? I'm so delighted to be back here with you. Me too. I love your heart earrings. For listeners, you can't fully appreciate this, but she is wearing beautiful gold heart earrings. And that sets our intention for open-hearted communication today. That's exactly why I wore them. And that is what we're talking about. We're talking about communication. So last episode, we spoke about the first date with the fabulous Ryan Lange. And now we're in a situation where hopefully you have had a successful first date. And we want to translate that into the building blocks of communication.

2:13Sounds easy, but actually one of the hardest things to get right when so much of modern dating seems to be all about playing games. So we're going to look at communication from three angles. Firstly, how communication styles get formed and how that might be affecting how you date. Secondly, common communication pitfalls. And finally, how these pitfalls can become games and how to stop playing them. We've got a really, really special guest joining us later to tackle all of that. But before we do, Mel, what do you think are some of the do's and don'ts of communicating after a first date? Well, the first thing I'm going to say is don't play the bloody games.

2:57Let's go back to what we were talking about, about the rules. I'm going to say burn them. Let's forget about the rules, the games, you know. The number of times I hear people say after a first date, you must not text until three days later. And people really, really buy into this as though it is law. But what's it doing? Particularly if you're sitting at home thinking, I really like this person. I want to let them know. I want to lock in that next date. But something inside you is saying, you must not do that. It's just ridiculous. Yeah. And also, often with those rules, you only hear about them on the rare occasion that they've been successful.

3:37So that's when someone will report back and say, well, listen, I did this and it worked for me. And then we extrapolate from that. But you don't hear all of the myriad unsuccessful stories. That's right. That way you've actually put someone off because they feel really rejected. And the missed opportunities. Yes. You know, if you've invested so much in, let's say it was an online connection, you've done all that screening online, you've got your deal breakers out there, up front, you've met them in person, perhaps there's a little chemistry there, you've assessed that some of your values are aligned, you're excited about getting to that next stage.

4:11Why would you stop that? Yeah, I have to say, I mean, I feel obviously enlightened now because I've watched several series of maths and my best friend is a psychotherapist and I've been through the dating badlands. And so I kind of understand it all a lot better. But at the time that I was single in my late 30s, I think I did have a list of unrealistic do's and don'ts. And one of the things that I was always hyper aware of is that I don't really like phone calls. I'd much prefer to put it in text. And I would get into that awful situation where I would text something that I wanted to be funny, but I probably made it slightly too long and it's probably slightly too over elaborated.

4:55And then the person I was texting with wouldn't text back. And then I would fall into that rules based mindset of, well, no, I shouldn't double text. I shouldn't be the next person to text. He's got to be the one who texts back first. Otherwise, and then I just get into this spiral of anxiety. And then I'd start saying to myself, no, because now you're playing games. So just send the text. And I would send the next text. I'm feeling anxious just listening to this. It's awful. And I wonder whether there is something in the area, not necessarily a do or a don't or a rule, but is there something where we need to reel ourselves back from just going completely over the top?

5:37Well, there's going over the top and there's being authentic. So I think we've got to really draw that distinction because no one wants to be going over the top. We're not talking about extremes of communication here. But in terms of being comfortable enough to own your needs and to express your needs is something that is so empowering. It's really scary to do, particularly the first time and if that's an expansion of your comfort zone. But if you can get to that point where you've had that date and you really like this person, to be able to sit in that, and it is uncomfortable, so you're sitting in that discomfort of, I like this person, I'm going to communicate it, you put it out there.

6:21And if that person doesn't reply, what's that telling you? That I'm a terrible waste of space. No, it's not about you. Okay. They could be busy. Or? Or you could not be the right fit for them, but that doesn't mean that you're a terrible person. Right. Even as I'm saying it, I don't believe it. No, I can hear that. But maybe it means that they're not as into you as you are into them. Yes. And that's a hard thing to hear. But wouldn't that be someone you'd want to rule out rather than rule in? I think that's such a good point. And actually, because of all the work I've done on failure since being a serial data, I now understand that within every rejection, there is a seed of protection, that actually you are being protected from the relationship that is not right for you and one that you can discount but acquire necessary data from in order to do something slightly differently next time.

7:24I love that. And think of every date as gathering data points or data, as you call it. Yes, dating data. Exactly. Are there any taboo topics in those early days of communication, do you think? I'm going to say no. And I know that's a little controversial because some people would believe that there definitely are off-limits topics. But if you want to talk about something that is actually really important to you and you want to see how that person responds to it, why not bring it up? Because their response is going to tell you so much about who they are and how they see something that is actually really important to you.

8:04Let's say it's religion. You know, a lot of people say you don't talk about sex, politics, religion on dates, you know, the things that can be a little controversial. But why not? Why not see how that person responds? Yes. Okay, final question before we bring our fabulous guest on. Is there such a thing as healthy and unhealthy communication? Absolutely. A lot of that's about boundaries, you know, and this is something we really do need to delve into when we're talking about dating because boundaries are so incredibly important here. knowing how far you want to go with this person. And even if this is new to you, there's nothing wrong with sitting down at home and writing this down, getting really clear on, okay, I want to talk about this, but not this.

8:51I want to ask questions to ascertain this piece of information. Let's say it's a deal breaker. Maybe it's around family or religion or schooling, but I don't want to reveal this about myself. So getting that stuff really clear and then those then become your, what will be healthy communication for you. That's really interesting because I think a lot of people might think that if they're not sharing everything, they're not being honest. But actually there's a difference between privacy and safe and healthy boundaries and having to reveal everything, isn't there? There's a difference between privacy and secrecy, I suppose is what I'm going to say.

9:26Yes. And of course, on that first date, you don't want to say things that are going to put you in a really vulnerable position. You know, you don't know this person yet. You haven't established trust. I would suggest it's not a good idea to come out and share a past trauma, for example, because instantly that puts you in a position of vulnerability. And you don't know yet whether that person is a safe space for that kind of conversation. So that might be something you hold back until you feel comfortable. Okay. Thank you so much, Mel. And to help us figure out some of these essential questions, we're joined by an incredibly special guest.

10:00I did mention my best friend earlier. That was deliberate. It's because she's in the studio with us. It's Emma Reed-Torrell, who, as well as having the major qualification of being my best friend, is also a psychotherapist, writer and podcaster. And many of you will already know and love her because she and I did a podcast together called Best Friend Therapy. She's been a former guest on How to Fail. And Emma's specialisms are in transactional psychology and they're perfectly place for looking at this murky early stage communication phase of dating. She's written extensively on self-esteem, people pleasing and how the blind spots in our own behaviour can spill into our relationships with others.

10:38She knows me better than anyone else so I'm putting myself in a vulnerable position right now Mel. There might be some real moments of holding the mirror up to myself here but I am so thrilled to welcome to How To Date Emma. Oh thank you so much for having me. As I mentioned at the outset of this episode, we're going to split it into three parts. And the first part is, where did we get that idea from? So the background to our communication styles. So as I was talking about the things that I used to not allow myself to do when I was dating, those days that you remember only too well. Oh, yes. What were you thinking, Emma?

11:14I was loving that bit where you know that you have this conversation with yourself where you ruminate over, is this too much? Is this not enough? Should I do this? Can I do that? What's going to happen if? What if I don't? To that question of how can I eliminate the risk here? How can I manage the other person's response to me so that I can keep myself safe? Which you put as should I send this text or not? But that's one of those questions, isn't it? It's like, so where did that come from? And I want to ask you because I think for this conversation to make sense for listeners, it's really beginning with we know what the rules are because we live by them all day every day but we need to know where they came from because when we know where they come from we realize that they're not set in stone they're just learned and if they can be learned they can be unlearned and then imagine that kind of flexible conversation we could be having imagine that amazing point and an amazing question and as you were asking it I was reflecting on where that had come from.

12:15And I think for me, it came from feeling like I had to second guess people's responses in order to please them and mitigate the risk of them acting or reacting in a way that would scare or unbalance me. And that comes from a lot of past relationships in my life. So the way that I was most familiar with was someone replying to my texts and being very textual and having that banter and that consistency of check-in. And actually, when Justin and I met, I couldn't understand why he wasn't replying with immediacy to my texts. I had so many conversations with Emma where I had to check in with, I feared I was being ghosted again, because that had happened to me so many times.

13:06And I thought, well, if I haven't heard from him in 48 hours, it's because he wants out. And I really did lean on you at that point in time. It was a really important point, wasn't it? Because it was the bit where you were looking for it to go wrong. And I suppose, again, that idea of where has this come from? What are your expectations? And we so often create the worst case scenario that we've been dreading because of those assumptions that we've made. So if he doesn't communicate within 48 hours he's not into me which is such a inhibitor on opening up but that idea that you were ready to see the worst because that was safer than hoping for the best yes and actually they both require equal amounts of energy yeah they do can we talk a little bit about attachment styles because whilst the idea of attachment styles is incredibly helpful and has helped me personally.

14:03It feels, Mel, like it's become a bit of a buzzword. How much do you think attachment styles play into the idea of communication and are they helpful? Look, I think they play into communication a lot and I think they're helpful as a guide, as a starting point, a jumping off point, if you like, for communication and exploring what's going on in a relationship. I think it becomes problematic when people become too focused on it. You know, the love language is another example where people are obsessed with love languages and to the point where they become really binary and black and white about it.

14:40And they say, for example, if my partner doesn't show me an act of service, I'm out, you know. And I see that with attachment styles as well. So I think it's really important that it's a very helpful piece of information, particularly for self-reflection and for looking at your partner and understanding that relationship. But let's not get too bogged down in it would be my message. Emma, what do you think of attachment styles? I love attachment styles for one main reason, and that is that they prove that my way is not the way. And I think it's that piece that when we're communicating, even if we're just recognizing there is more than one way of doing this, there is more than one way of interpreting 48 hours.

15:23There is more than one way of building a relationship for the long term. Yours was, you know, by chasing. Say what you mean. In the nicest possible way. Elizabeth. Hang on, I was like devastatingly enigmatic. And you were engaged in pursuing that relationship. You were. Do you think I was with Justin though? Yes. I think it changed with Justin. No, I still think the energy was active. It was like, I will message, it will be a generous gift of communication, and I'm looking for that to come back to me. And when it didn't come back to you, that felt like it was not meeting you there at that point.

16:07And now what we're saying is, huh, he did not experience that 48 hours the same way that you did. He was experiencing them very differently as someone who sees the world differently because they have different relationship norms to you. so for me attachment styles are great because they say my way is not the way and also I think because they give you a window into understanding I don't have to take this personally I can get curious about this but how do we know so we've spoken there about kind of where did we get our ideas from how much does it help us or not to try and understand the ideas that someone else might be coming with.

16:46So that 48 hours where your text isn't being replied to, what if they genuinely aren't that into you and they are in the process of ghosting you without explanation? How much time do we waste trying to understand that, Mel? It's really tricky to put a time limit on it for me, you know, because I'm so hesitant about being too prescriptive here. But I think you've got to use your judgment. And I think perhaps Emma you might weigh in here as well but I think the best way to maybe approach that judgment is to get find a way to get that balance between the emotion of the situation which is important how you feel what your instinct is telling you but also some some evidence you know some of the logical side of your brain as well and that's where perhaps talking to a friend or someone else who's going through this can help you make sure you're balancing both because it's very easy to get caught up in one or the other.

17:42You know, people who just play the rules are all in head and no heart. And people who are just, you know, caught up in the emotion and going with the absolute excitement of it all can just get very much caught up in heart and not have the head. Do you know, when you were talking then, I was thinking about, actually I was thinking about dialectical behaviour therapy. So DM2. Me too. No. What coincidence. That happens all the time. And about this idea of a wise mind and how we have an emotional mind that does all of that heart piece, that feels the fear. It's been 48 hours. What does this mean for me?

18:15Will this person contact me? Will I meet anyone? Will I be alone for the rest of my life? That kind of fear. And then we have this much more rational mind that understands that we're adults. We have full-time jobs. We're busy. We have family. We have friends. We communicate different ways. We don't know what we don't know. And sometimes we get caught on a kind of pendulum between those two. And neither one can really satisfy us. Neither one feels grounded. We have to take a piece from both and land somewhere in what we would call our wise mind. It's like, okay, what was my wise mind say at this point?

18:48It would say that right now it's appropriate to stay invested in this, to see what happens next, and to be open to the possibility that this won't go as far as I'd like it to, and that I'll be okay. I love that, the wise mind. And I'm just, as I'm listening to you, I'm thinking of a really practical way that people could apply this because everybody has a bit of a default position, don't we? You either tend to be a little bit more in the head or a little bit more in the heart, a little bit more rational or emotional. And most adults, I find, if they do a little bit of self-reflection can pinpoint which is their sort of go-to.

19:26So what can be really helpful is to quite literally draw a line in the middle of the page and do head and heart at the top of each column and write it down because it might not naturally occur to you to do both columns. So give that a try. Yeah, that's a great idea. That's a great idea. I could listen to you talk all day. Psycho-bevel. I'm enjoying it so much. Can we talk a little bit about how we might have inherited or had our scripts shaped by the sort of upbringing we experienced and how this might influence our communication. Absolutely. And you've used the word scripts there, which is completely correct.

20:05It's almost like you're my best friend. I know. And you've heard me bang on about transactional analysis enough times to know that a script essentially is a shorthand kind of package of thoughts, feelings, behaviours that says this is how to go through your life. And it's really important that we have it because humans are the only mammals that are born effectively 12 months prematurely. So we don't come out of the womb able to fend for ourselves, to walk, to talk. We actually have to shape ourselves to fit, well, whether we're having this discussion in a podcast studio or we're on a Tibetan hillside.

20:38We need to become adaptations in order to fit in with our family systems. And that goes to the level of communication, that goes to the level of whether or not we are open with our feelings or whether we actually have a stiff upper lip, whether it's okay to show vulnerability or whether we need to take things at face value. All of those kind of communication shortcuts get set up for us before the age of six. So we only need to look back at our parents and our parents' parents to understand where have we got some of these rules from. And I suppose at least when I think about my situation, I don't think that my parents' parents had the same dilemmas that I have today.

21:19So it's really important for me that I keep updating some of those core conditions that came down to me. Can you just tell quickly the story about the turkey? It's one of my favourite, favourite metaphors. Okay, so this was a client that I had and this client said she had an absolutely eye-opening Christmas one year. I love the January sessions because clients come back in, things have happened. She said, you know what, it got to Christmas Day. We put the turkey in the oven as we always do, we sliced off the lucky top of the turkey and we put it to one side. And she said at that point, it occurred to me that for generations, my family had sliced off the lucky top of a turkey, put it to one side.

21:58And I said to my mother, why do we do this? And my mother said, I actually don't know. We've just always done it. So I said to my grandmother, why do we do this? And she said, I don't know. We've just always done it. And we looked to our great grandmother and she said, my oven was too small. and the only reason the top of this turkey had ever come off was for the reason of fitting in an oven and yet if we put that across a cane of communications in dating situation we could all be metaphorically taking the tops off our turkeys there we go and there's no need i love that and i think also family systems they can be so influential in so many ways and i'm very aware as a Gen Xer slash elder millennial clinging on to that elder millennial category like it's going out of fashion.

22:45It is. Actually, X is so much cooler. You're right. Anyway, but I think there's been so much more open conversation about things like neurodiversity, which I think in a family system of tradition could potentially be quite difficult to grow up in, particularly as it pertains to communication styles. And we will talk about neurodiversity in more detail later in this episode.

23:14At Sierra, discover top workout gear at incredible prices, which might lead to another discovery. Your headphones haven't been connected this whole time. Awkward. Discover top brands at unexpectedly low prices. Sierra, let's get moving. Race the rudders. Race the sails. Race the sails. Captain, an unidentified ship is approaching. Over. Roger. Wait, is that an enterprise sales solution? Reach sales professionals, not professional sailors. With LinkedIn ads, you can target the right people by industry, job title, and more. Start converting your B2B audience today. Spend$250 on your first campaign and get a free$250 credit for the next one.

23:55Get started today at linkedin.com slash campaign. Terms and conditions apply.

24:04let's move on to part two which is the pitfalls for communication Emma you have written so much and so brilliantly about blind spots what we don't know we don't know so how might that play into a dating scenario yes so this has become a kind of passion project for me this bit about in my clinical practice, clients coming to me who are very self-aware, very reflective, doing the work and still coming up against these same obstacles. So for me, there's something about asking yourself, not what's wrong with the world or what's wrong with the people that I'm meeting, but I'm the common denominator here.

24:50what is it that might be not wrong with me but that's coming in without me realizing you know which brings me to that point earlier about let's say you and phone calls the fact that you don't like phone calls I know you don't like phone calls because you don't know how to get off them yes because you don't know that you're allowed to say and I need to wrap this up now and until you knew that, you wouldn't have known why you didn't like phone calls. So if we can all start to understand not what we're doing, but why we're doing it, not what we're tripping over, but what's there that we haven't spotted yet, then we can get so much further faster in terms of matching.

25:33And for me, I split it into four profiles. I've created a rock, a gladiator, a hustler and a bridge. I love a profile because they give us a category to just hook some of our initial thinking on. Mel do you think you had blind spots when it came to dating we've spoken extensively which made me laugh so much about how Mel felt that she was showing up very smugly I love that so you should I think to the point that I was so blocked I think I kept dating the same man in different clothing and he was Mr. Unavailable and so I would sabotage the hell out of any relationship that came near me. But that's what I kept doing and I think that's where there was a blind spot for me because I was constantly left wondering why do I keep attracting these guys who, you know, some it was subtle, it was in terms of emotional unavailability, slippery, a little bit hard to put your finger on where they're at.

26:33Some were really obvious, they lived overseas. Or they were a gigging stand-up comic that had no fixed address. You know, literally unavailable people were the ones that I was bringing into my orbit. And I think I got into a bit of a, poor me. Why do I, what's wrong? What's going on here? Why do I keep attracting these duds who can't give me what I need? It took a long time for me to be able to reflect and I guess start to unpick that blind spot a little bit and understand more about it. And I realised that, you know, the energy that I was putting out there was very much, I'm unattainable. You can't actually get close to me.

27:17There will be no vulnerability here. So the only people who I was able to attract were people who were also unavailable. And how did that play out in your communication? Would you just not communicate that much? No, because obviously I'm an over-communicator. I would get combative and probably, if I'm honest, defensive. That's probably really what was going on there. And, you know, deep down what was really going on was I was feeling really sad and hurt because these men weren't showing up as my knight in shining armour. You know, they weren't giving me anything that I really needed, but I wasn't able to see that that was because of the dynamic I was creating.