How To Date: Red and Green Flags

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1:02Welcome to How To Date, the podcast that teaches you what you need to know about navigating modern romance. I'm podcaster and author Elizabeth Day. And I'm Mel Schilling, Relationship Coach. And every week we aim to give you the skills you need to show up as yourself on the apps and in real life. And I just wanted to let you know that if you don't want to wait each week for new episodes, Please join our wonderful community of subscribers where you can binge all episodes now, ad-free, all at once. Just follow the link in the show notes. Hello, Mel. Hello, gorgeous. We had such a big episode last week all about communication.

1:43Yes. Which leads us seamlessly onto this week, actually. We ended on the notion of red flags and what they mean. And we thought it's such a big subject. we wanted to devote an entire week's episode to red and green flags. Yes, absolutely. Can I just ask you about the concept, Mel? Do you think it's a useful one? I do. And I actually look at red flags in a slightly different way. I like to break them up into global red flags and personal red flags. Because if you think about it, there are some that are global. You know, some of those behaviours that a person might demonstrate on a date or even on a dating app that any rational person would say is a red flag.

2:27So things like being abusive or talking about violence in a glorified way, or maybe you see a date being disrespectful to someone. These are those kind of global bad behaviours that can only indicate that they're probably not going to lead to a positive relationship. So I think it's really helpful to think of the global red flags, but then also the personal ones. The personal ones will be much more linked to your own values and they'd be different for you and I. So if your highest value is, you know, around integrity, watching someone sit across from you at the table and lie is going to be a red flag.

3:05Yes. And I suppose, I mean, you've made it very clear there, but we should define what a red flag is for anyone who doesn't fully understand the concept. It is one of those signs, something that you pick up on in a relationship or in the early days of dating that just triggers some kind of uncomfortable response and that might signal that this relationship is not going to work out for whatever reason? Do you think that's an accurate definition? Yeah, and it's really a non-negotiable for many people. And I think it's really smart to get very clear on what your deal breakers or clear red flags would be before going into relationships.

3:45so that you're, well, firstly, on the lookout for them. Not so that you can necessarily get too focused on them because it's easy to do that, but just so you've got a conscious awareness of them so that if they show up, you'll spot them straight away. So I want to tell a quick little story about a red flag that appeared in, I wouldn't even categorise this person as an ex, but someone that I was dating, which initially sounds trivial, but I'm going to explain why it isn't. Okay. This person was very full on from the off in a way that at the time I experienced as someone being into me. And I thought that was so refreshing and nice.

4:26But at the same time, it made me feel under a lot of pressure. So by date three, he was talking about, you know, going on holiday together, what our lives would look like. And I thought that's sort of what I'd wanted. But it was making me feel uncomfortable, even though I didn't admit that to myself. it all came to a head on the night of our I think third or fourth date when he came back to mine and he had stayed over before and he had decided that my bed was really uncomfortable and he had lower back problems so he didn't want to sleep in my bed so he turned up in his parents car bearing a camp bed.

5:08So he busses on the door. I let him up and he is carrying this sort of futon camp bed. He's like, listen, I just know that I'm not going to sleep well. And so I've brought this camp bed. And so we had sex and then he literally like rolled off and slept on this camp bed like a sort of faithful dog on the floor. And I woke up halfway through the night thinking, I cannot date this man. This man cannot be my boyfriend. He's brought a camp bed to sleep over. But on the one hand, I was like, isn't it good that he knows himself sufficiently, that he knows that he's got these lumber issues, that he has taken the measures necessary.

5:46On the other hand, I was thinking, this is a bit odd. And a bit unusual. And I need to pay attention to it combined with that feeling of being under overwhelming pressure. And the next morning I broke things off and he said something to me that I will never forget. He said, as long as you don't change your mind in six months, because by that time your ovaries will have dried up and I won't be interested. And I was like, oh, now that is a red flag. And so sometimes I do think it's about paying attention to those moments of intuition. They don't have to be camp beds, but those moments where you don't feel settled.

6:24Right. And we've talked a lot on this podcast about confidence and that sense of belief in your own intuition, haven't we? And that's a really classic example of where you need to do it. If something, like you're saying, it sounds like you were maybe being love bombed a little bit. He was really inundating you with these so-called positive messages about how he felt about you, but you were feeling slightly off about it. That's one of those first warning signs that things are not quite right. I mean, I've got a quick anecdote and it's nowhere near as interesting as yours, but it was very clear for me in terms of a red flag.

6:59And this would be something I'd consider a personal red flag, not a global one. So it was very simple. We were walking down a street in St Kilda in Melbourne, going out for dinner. And this is a street where there's loads and loads of cafes, restaurants. You've got so much choice. And I said to him, we could do this or we could do this. I gave a few options. He could not make a decision. And it got to the point where he kept crossing the road, crossing the road, crossing the road. And I was just toddling along next to him going, for God's sake, will you make a decision? And for me, having a value around someone who's ambitious and driven and knows their own mind and seeing him not able to even make a decision, incapable of making a decision about where he wanted to eat, was the biggest turnoff for me.

7:46Now that might not be a turnoff for you. So I think it's really important to understand what are the ones that are just personal to you and hold to them. They're still absolutely important if they're linked to your values, but also be aware that there are some others that are just don't go there sister kind of moments. And that man is still wandering the streets of Melbourne. He's still trying to make a decision. You might see him now with a very long beard. Well, as we've identified there, Mel, there's so much to talk about. And we are lucky enough today to be joined by a true expert in the field who is the anonymous sex, dating and relationships expert.

8:22Lala La, let me explain. Lala is a qualified social worker. She's also the agony aunt for OK magazine and her 2022 book, Block, Delete, Move On, It's Not You, It's Them. What a title. Brilliant. Was a Sunday Times bestseller. She joins us here. Lala, welcome to How To Date. Hello. Thank you for being here. Do you think I was right to dump the camp bed man? Oh, without a doubt. No question. Thank goodness. Okay. So Lala, will you explain the red green and pink maybe sometimes even amber flag system and how helpful you think it is when it comes to dating oh I mean I think it's really important thing to think about exactly as Mel said at the start there before you are entering the dating scene or before you meet someone think about what means what to you what have you experienced in previous relationships that have not been right, that haven't worked out, that have maybe felt a little bit scary.

9:21What have you learned from them? What were the flags then? What were the flags or what were the good qualities that you experienced in previous relationships that maybe didn't work out? Get to know what those things are and then approach dating in a way that's not out there looking always for flags unless they're green, but to acknowledge and be aware that there are going to be certain warning signs, possibly when you're dating people that are important to look at and to think about and to run from sometimes so i categorize it red pink and green you said amber but i guess my pink is just amber basically we don't confuse it's not a london underground tube map no no and you can call them what you want you don't even actually have to call them flags but i think that flags are a really good way of looking at it you know that guy saying your ovaries are going to be dried up in six months That is him holding up a red flag.

10:15And if you can kind of visually imagine that. But the way I see it is green flags are good qualities. Things that people should be showing up as on dates. Things that we're like, this is very attractive and this feels safe and this feels nice. Pink flags are things where you wouldn't necessarily run. A pink flag might be something like they say, I don't have any social media whatsoever. yes now that's not necessarily something that you would need to write they might well have no so I mean bit odd especially if you've met them on a dating app but they may well not have any social media and that could be a really really healthy thing but that might be something you should sort of pay attention to a little bit then if you have another pink flag so they won't invite you to their house but they really want to come to yours you've now got two pink flags you don't want to keep adding more and more pink flags to that you're getting a big indication this person is probably in a relationship the red flag would then be turning up at a date with a wedding ring on yeah interesting because there are some I suppose lighter colored red flags that are more serious than pink but what I mean by that are things like ghosting which we mentioned in a previous episode but I'm very interested in the ick because the ick can sometimes be judgment-based rather than objective and is there a thin line between the red flag and icks?

11:47Mel's example of that man just being completely indecisive crossing the road over again that's almost an ick as well yeah that's like yeah like I'm this is a real oh I'm turned off by this and sometimes we are turned off by things that actually we probably shouldn't be you know I went to a comedy night with a guy once and he was a really really sweet guy but throughout the whole set he was like oh my god I just can't look at him anymore I just can't and that is an ick you know I can't say sorry I've left him because his laugh during this comedy set was incredibly embarrassing that's not you know that is something that i could have overridden however sometimes it is your gut saying to you yes because if you really like a person then actually that laugh at the comedy can be like oh that was so cute you know i mean it was hilarious so sometimes i think those ics can be gut intuition and sometimes it is evolutionary that's what a lot of people say is that it actually comes from a place of us going oh this person might not be a great father for my babies or the other way around if you're a man so ick is something to pay attention to but also pay attention to why you're getting it are you just being a bitch because he's wearing the wrong shoes or whatever can you get through that or actually is this ick telling you something else that actually this discomfort is something you should pay attention to, even if it seems like a silly little thing.

13:20Very interesting. And Mel, do you think that the only way to discern that is time? I think you can categorise them. I mean, if you think about what you're looking for in a relationship, there are criteria on which to rule someone out. Some of them will be deal breakers. So that's what I would call the red flags, the absolute no-go zone. If this thing shows up, I'm out of there because this means it's not going to be a positive relationship for me. So that would be the things that link to your values and your deeper self. But then there are relationship preferences, and these are the ones that are flexible or should be flexible.

13:57So when people come to me and say, I will not date someone who wears white shoes, I go, is that a deal breaker or is that a relationship preference? Right. It's something to be flexible on. And I think this is where, you know, you mentioned about being a bitch or being, you know, a little bit too quick to jump to judgment. sometimes that's coming from a place of fear and sometimes there's a bit of humor in there as well but often it's about self-protection and so I think if an ick comes up it's a good idea to first ask yourself where it's coming from yeah sometimes it's self-preservation isn't it it's like that like self-sabotage I'm going to get the ick for this because this person might leave me so actually if I've already thought that they're a bit disgusting anyway then cool that's a bit of protection for me for my ego so true can we talk about love bombing because I think as a society and if you're of a certain generation as I am there's part of me that's been socially conditioned to believe that love bombing is romance if someone's if someone's coming up to you and saying let's run away to Rio tomorrow you're the most amazing thing I've ever seen it took me years to get out of that conditioning and thankfully I am out of it but I think there might be some people listening to this who believe that it sounds quite nice what is love bombing a red flag lala yeah love bombing is is is hugely a red flag it's really difficult isn't it because you will have some romances that do play out like movies you might have friends or family members who had a whirlwind and it worked out and they have got the most wonderful loving relationship ever but every movie, every song, everything that we've been conditioned to know is that this is how love goes.

15:41It's, you know, big and huge and straight away. When actually love bombing is probably the biggest red flag out there. And the one that if you are able to recognize and deal with, you are potentially saving yourself, maybe saving your own life, especially if you are a woman, but potentially saving yourself from abuse. Now, as you say, love bombing can be really difficult to spot because if somebody is coming at you with intensity, affection, saying all the right things, doing all the right things. If you also kind of feel like, yeah, I want this too from that, but I really like them too. And also if you feel like I deserve this, like, yeah, I'm great.

16:24Like, I expect this. It can be really difficult to identify that this is actually a sign of danger. Now, I've got a good example, actually, at the moment, one of my friends is dating a guy. They're on the sixth date. She really likes him. They've got on incredibly well. And he's just told her that he has told his daughter's mum about her. now she came to me as if that was like this is really great and I'm like okay that you need to take a step back because why after seven days is this man trying to hook you in in this way that means that you are now indebted to him in some way look at the risk I've taken I've told my daughter's mom about you now I can't now untell her about you so you know you now owe me a little bit and this is often how you can characterize love bombing because the intensity and the whirlwind doesn't last for long before the mask slips and the devaluation stage begins so they get you completely hooked on it you want this you're in just a constant dopamine rush with this person wait until the point that you are dependent on that and that you would be very sad for any of this to end then they have that shift the mask will slip they will do something like get annoyed with you for something that you've said or done and then you will feel like you need to apologize your way out of that even if you feel that you haven't done anything wrong that you are then responsible for repairing things to make them go back to that whirlwind intensity you cannot love someone after three dates you might feel loads of like chemistry and lust and all of these things but you cannot love so love bombing is just wanting to be with you all the time declaring really strong feelings for you never being out of your sight and then it's the mask slipping but it might not be straight away it could be four months six months eight months but then when the mask slips is so hard to get out of.

18:38If only I had met you when I was 29, you could have saved me a lot of difficulty. That is so riveting, that kind of matrix where they hook you in, but part of that is making you feel responsible for their happiness and their ability to continue providing the supply of kind of addictive love. And I suppose I'd never really understood before how love bombing coexists with narcissism, but I guess this is how. Is that right, Mel? Yeah. And often it is one of the behaviours that narcissists demonstrate. You're absolutely right. It is essentially getting a hook, big hook out and hooking you on with all of the positive and affirmative behaviour around you that's apparently lifting you up.

19:24And then like you say, La La, they drop it. And all of a sudden your need becomes almost unbearable. This is where a lot of people get into that sense of devaluing themselves. Who am I if I'm not getting daily flowers from this person? What's wrong with me? And it becomes this cycle. It's incredibly manipulative.

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20:39What about someone who doesn't believe in relationships or commitments? Who is, and I'm laughing again because I've been there. I've dated him too. Me too. Me too. It's a couple of times over. We've all been there. The kind of emotional avoidance. Is that a red flag? It's a red flag if you are looking for more. If what you're looking for is a relationship and you start speaking to someone who is very much like not really sure what I'm looking for, but you really fancy them and you really like them and you get on with them. what you can sometimes end up doing is getting into this space where it's like I really want this person even though they're not offering me exactly what it is that I want but let me just go at their pace so that I can keep them and so I don't lose this and yeah let me give them sex because that's what they're looking for and then maybe they might fall in love with me as a result and let me keep showing up for them and you can often start really showing up like you're in a relationship with somebody who is very clear with you that they don't want a relationship with you but are very happy to continue sleeping with you so you know if you're finding yourself matching people online make sure it is with people who are saying that they want the same thing that you want if you're looking for a life partner or a long-term monogamous relationship and the guy has in his bio short-term fun if you stick around trying to change that that is absolutely on you and you and you've wasted your own time and energy, people show you who they are every day.

22:13Yeah. And our job is to listen. Yeah. Can I ask, and maybe we're not best placed to answer this, but I wonder how neurodiversity plays into this conversation because I imagine that there are certain people with neurodiversity who maybe don't account for themselves in the way they would like on apps or through technology or in person. and that can sometimes be misconstrued as a red or pink flag by the person they're dating. Do you have any insight into that? Well, I mean, certainly I've got a lot of insight into ADHD and dating. I have been diagnosed with ADHD and it has really impacted my dating life.

22:53On a basic level, like in terms of what you're saying about communication and stuff, I might open up a message and I don't reply like a normal person. I'll just give like four words you know they might say how was your day great you know I'm like no fucking about and sometimes I now use chat GPT to help me to formulate things and it's so different you know what I was intending to say was like you know some absolute rubbish and then chat GPT will help me to speak like a bloody human sometimes and I know a lot of autistic people who use chat GPT to formulate conversations as well because sometimes you do miss you certainly autistic people will miss things like sarcasm take things quite literally people with adhd are going to be dopamine chasing and maybe want things to happen faster than they should certainly for me as an adhd person i'm very much like this must happen we must have complete momentum no gaps you need to reply you know and this is stuff that I have to work on but definitely neurodiversity has a massive impact and I guess if you are neurotypical then yes you may be speaking to somebody online who's coming across completely differently and yeah maybe you do have to give room for the fact that maybe people are neurodiverse but then again like I think that's a whole other big conversation about compatibility and stuff I might be more compatible with a man with ADHD because he's just like me, whereas a neurotypical man might not ever work with me in a relationship because I'd be too chaotic for him.

24:29Thank you for sharing that. That was so insightful. I love the idea of using ChatGPT to almost express something that you want to express, but being able to say to ChatGPT, can you do this with more vulnerability? Can you say it in a way that has an open-ended question? I think that's a top tip. It really works for baby dads as well. I've been arguing with my baby dad and my original response on ChatGPT is, you absolute fucking ****, this is never happening. And ChatGP has me sending, I'm very disappointed. You know, it's great. It really works. Well, that's so interesting because you are a single mother.

25:06And so red flags for you, particularly if we move on and talk about the really serious ones, are something that you have to take into consideration, not just for you, but for your child. Yes. Yeah. And I think, you know, the sad reality is that when you're dating as a single parent, you can't allow yourself room for the same mistakes that you would have done when you were 25 and single and reckless and didn't have any investments in anything important. You can make mistakes. I mean, you probably shouldn't for your own life, but you can and you can fuck up your own life as much as you want to really.

25:42when you have a child you can't do that anymore you are responsible for this person's safety and you can't get into situations that even look like they might be potentially shit and that's not just because you're potentially putting your child in danger it's because it's impossible to parent when you are heartbroken and on the floor I remember being at a football camp with my son he was like three years old and I got a text from a woman at the time and I had been with this man for six months I was in love with him he was my boyfriend and I got this text during this football camp from this woman who sent me all these photos and she was like the man that you've been with for the last six months is my boyfriend he's my son's father we live together and I remember being in this football class and just shaking and then like my son coming over and trying to show me something and me being like no move you know like and for the rest of that day I was just obsessed with texting this woman getting as much information as possible and I remember putting him to bed that night and thinking I've just been the worst mum in the world so of course you can't always avoid that and being in relationships means being open to hurt and heartbreak and turmoil and all of those things but if you as a single parent are putting yourself at risk of that happening knowingly then actually you are just not serving yourself or your child well because it is just so hard to be in emotional turmoil and show up as a good parent at the same time well I think we've heard an example there of like a super red like a crimson magenta flag what a horrible experience you to go through and I'm so sorry I suppose that leads me into thinking about really really serious things like controlling behavior like financial dependency, someone being in a relationship with someone else, gaslighting.

27:38I know that term can be somewhat overused, particularly by the contestants of Married at First Sight. Yes. But Mel, can I ask you a bit about those red flags and what to do or how to spot them, I suppose, is a better question? Okay. Well, probably the first thing to say is this is emotional abuse that we're talking about here. I think with all these buzzwords and TikTok getting involved, it can come across as a bit lighthearted, but it really is not. It is emotional abuse. And one of the things we know about people who are getting involved in emotional abuse is it can escalate and often does to forms of physical abuse and so on, or financial abuse, the whole array.

28:24So I guess the first thing is to take it seriously. If you are noticing that someone is being manipulative towards you, that they're controlling you, that they're belittling you, that they're lying to you, that they're using those confusional techniques that we actually see a lot in Married at First Sight as well. But I hear a lot from people in relationships talking about this as well, where the person is turning a situation around, even though they're in the wrong, and making you believe that you're in the wrong. And I think a really good litmus test is to ask yourself, do I feel like I'm going crazy?

28:59Because that's something that we hear so often. And you probably hear this too, Lala, people saying, I feel like I'm going crazy in this relationship. Yeah, absolutely. And emotionally abusive relationships are just as harmful as physical. I mean, the two really go hand in hand. You're not really going to get a physically abusive relationship without coercive control. They're very much hand in hand, which is exactly as you said, the coercive control very often leads to physical abuse. And the things that you really do need to look out for are controlling jealousy. And that can be so subtle. And again, a bit like with the love bombing, it feels nice.

29:37And I know that we're speaking here as three straight cis women. But I'm sure there are incidences where women do this too. Absolutely. And are manipulators and are abusers. And I just wanted to say that for anyone listening, to be aware, not just to think of it in terms of a binary gender issue. This can happen in multiple different kinds of relationships. and one of the things for me that I remember from a past relationship that was deeply dysfunctional and emotionally abusive was I wanted to record our arguments because he would always remember it differently in a way that painted me in the worst light obviously I never did it because I was too scared to do it actually and if you are at the point where you're thinking I want to record the conversations we have, that to my mind is a red flag.

30:35Oh, absolutely. Yeah, very. And I think that's helpful for people listening, you know, in terms of what to look out for in your own reactions. Because if we take the example of jealousy, that's not a binary thing. You know, there's a whole continuum of jealous behaviours at one end where it is just, you know, maybe someone feeling a little bit insecure and they really are falling in love with you. And so the fear is bubbling to the surface and they're behaving in a way that's a little bit awkward and, you know, they're showing their hand a bit, through to a really controlling, jealous, aggressive style of behaviour and everything in between.

31:15So I think it's important that, you know, we don't necessarily jump straight to, if someone's being jealous, throw them out, throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak. There's got to be an acknowledgement of all the nuance here. And I think this is where, you know, having friendship groups or family members you can talk to, to just do a bit of that reality checking. Because, you know, often when you're in that limerence stage, the early stages of the relationship, everything is all a little bit blurred because you're so excited and there's oxytocin flowing around and everything looks great, but it can be confusing.

31:50It can be hard to get that touch point of reality. So I think I would really encourage you listeners to, if you're noticing things come up that seem like they could be red flags, talk about it. Don't overthink it. Get it out there. Have a chat with someone you trust and just do a bit of exploration of, okay, here are the different types of behaviours this person's demonstrating. What do you think? Do you have any practical tips you could add to Mel's very wise advice to check in with your friendship group? if you've spotted a red flag what should you do it's really difficult because I mean if it's a red flag a genuinely red flag you actually do need to do the hard thing and show up for yourself and choose yourself and choose to not put yourself in a situation that looks like it's going to be extremely risky and it is difficult it's very hard to show up for yourself and to be decisive and to make the right decision because of all those nuanced factors like limerence, like this is the first person that's come along in a really long time and I really want this to work out.

32:56I mean, if you're spotting them in these early days, remind yourself that actually walking away is potentially saving your life. Think about what could be at the end of five years of this behaviour manifesting and developing and growing. And can I jump in there? Because I think that's a really good point, looking for patterns. Yes. A one-off behaviour, benefit of the doubt. But if you're starting to see these little behaviours three, four, five times, it becomes a pattern. And that's where you can start to, I guess, make predictions or hypotheses about if I was to stay in this relationship and this pattern of behaviour continued for five years, what might that look like?

33:39Is this happening to everyone? Because I think, again, when you're dating and you're going through a series of really difficult experiences sometimes that feel very rejecting and very dispiriting, you can turn that inside yourself and believe that it's you that's at fault, that it's a personal attack on you. From your experience, Lala, is this a widespread problem? Oh my God. Yeah. Dating is hell. It's really difficult, especially because of social media and dating apps and just the way that the world has changed so significantly in the last few years. I think it's very easy to internalize that and to blame yourself for all of the failures or all of the awful things that people might say to you on dating apps or the terrible encounters that you have.