How To Date: Taking it to the next level

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0:33When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp. The secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans. Send event invites and pin messages so no one forgets mom's 60th. And never miss a meme or milestone. All protected with end-to-end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp. Message privately with everyone. Learn more at whatsapp.com. How to Date is proudly sponsored by Morrisons. Welcome to How to Date, the podcast that teaches you what you need to know about navigating modern romance. I'm podcaster and author Elizabeth Day.

1:15And I'm Mel Schilling, Relationship Coach. And every week we aim to give you the skills you need to show up as yourself on the apps and in real life. And I just wanted to let you know that if you don't want to wait each week for new episodes, Please join our wonderful community of subscribers where you can binge all episodes now, ad-free, all at once. Just follow the link in the show notes. Hello, my darling Mel. Hello, gorgeous. So we are six episodes in. Wow. Are we ready to take it to the next level is the question. I'm certainly ready to take it to the next level with you. Well, thank you.

1:55What a relief. it has been such a journey of discovery so far i've really loved it i've loved talking to you i've loved talking to our guests last week we had the amazing la la la let me explain talking about red and green flags and boy we've had a few of those oh yes oh yes yes but now we're at the stage where it's green flags all the way and we have decided that we are ready to take it to the next level in what we hope to become a serious relationship. So Mel, do you think there is ever a hard and fast rule when it comes to timeframes as to discerning when it's appropriate to take it to the next level?

2:39I would say definitely not a hard and fast rule. But I think you need to be very, very clear yourself about what that transition looks like between the situationship or we're just casually dating through to we're in a serious relationship. I think so many couples muddle their way through this transition in a really clunky way and end up in this place where they're starting out a relationship and they're not on an even keel. And I think it's so important to give yourself the gift of a really smart, clear conversation about the next stage of the relationship if you want to have a positive relationship.

3:24Yeah, I relate to so much of that. And I think what was happening is that I would kiss someone or go on a date with someone and then think, well, they seem nice enough. So obviously this is going to end up being a relationship. And actually, it doesn't need to be. And I think that if I look back at myself in my 20s, potentially there was part of me that was still conditioned to people please, where I thought, well, if this person wants to date me long term, then I should say yes. And then another part of me probably was comparing myself to my peers and feeling like, well, I want to have this because my friends have it?

4:03Or I'm of an age now where I really should have it because TikTok time is running out. And if I want to have children in my thirties, I've got to get the relationship in place in my twenties. And so all of that was going on in my head. What wasn't going on was the question, what do I want? And also, who am I? I don't think I took the time to understand who I was. And I think absolutely who am I is very important. But I think when we're talking about this topic, this taking it to the next stage, what do I want, I think is an even more important question. Because so often, like you've described there, we just respond to other people's needs and all the shoulds that rain down on us from our families, from the media, from Hollywood, from rom-coms, you know, the shoulds.

4:57Therefore, if the music stops and there's someone standing in front of me, then that's the person I'm going to enter into a relationship with. But I'd love for our listeners to start thinking of that early phase of the relationship where you're, you know, I like to think of it like dogs. You know how dogs sniff each other's bums? I mean, that's what we do. I love where this is going. Okay. So you're advising our listeners just to sniff each other's bums? Absolutely. When they're doing it. Okay, fine. Yes, metaphorically speaking or physically speaking. No judgment here. Absolutely no kink shaming whatsoever.

5:31I love the way dogs do that and I think that's what new couples do as well is they're sussing each other out. And I think it's really important that as an individual in a new relationship you keep coming back to does it fit me? I'm assessing this potential partner to see if they are going to work for me in my life. Not so much whether I measure up for them. That's their business. Wow. Because we can get so caught up on that. That's so true. And actually, again, I really relate to that in a negative sense in that I would never have thought of it that way around. I would always have thought of it as if I am not right for them, there's some failing in me that I need to address.

6:16So let me attempt to shapeshift. I should say to our lovely listeners that there's no guest on this episode because Mel and I were too greedy and wanted to look at this topic all on our own because it is such an important one. And I think it's particularly interesting because of our joint experiences in dating. Because when we met our now husbands, we were both 39. Yeah, that's right. And at that stage for a cis hetero woman, the idea of time frame comes with this added edge, which is if you do want to have a family, then you have to factor that in as well. So for any listeners who are in that position, what advice would you give them that they don't rush things that aren't right for them?

7:05it's it's a really complex area and i find it hard to give hard and fast advice about this when i started my dating coaching practice almost exclusively this was the pool of clientele that i was working with it was women in their late mid to late 30s who were starting to feel that urgency But I think if that woman can keep coming back to what do I need and try not to be swayed by other people's expectations, whether that's this prospective partner or previous partners or family or society at large, you know, to come back to what is it that I need. And is this the right partner? If it is that, you know, you're knocking on the door of parenthood, is this the right partner?

7:57Is this the person I want to co-parent children with? And, you know, it may not be that that's the person that you're in a relationship at the moment with. And that could be a really hard question to ask yourself. You know, maybe I've invested six months in this new relationship with this person. there's something niggling away deep inside me. There's a little fear in there. And if I listen to it, I realise that I probably couldn't see myself parenting with this person. And being a parent is one of the most important things to me right now. Then I've got to make a really hard decision. And that's hard, of course, because we have the whole sunk costs fallacy.

8:38Yes. You know, and it's such an investment of your time. Your time's so precious, particularly in your late 30s. it's a hard decision but it's an important decision to make it is and I would like to add to that that there are so many things that you can do to mitigate risk we are so fortunate that we live in a world where scientific advances have meant that the biological age for parenting it can be advanced you do have longer than you used to have there are many different ways to parent. I went through a round of egg freezing in my late 30s because I wanted to have that assurance. I would say, though, that sometimes that assurance can be a mythical one in that I didn't get that many eggs.

9:25On one level, it's great to have these things at our disposal. On another, it shouldn't detract from your ultimate focus, which, as you say, in this particular example that we're talking about is about finding someone that you feel comfortable building a family unit with. Absolutely. And of course, on the same topic, but from a different perspective, I had a different experience. And of course, we were the same age, you and I going into these relationships. And I didn't have the burning desire to be a mother like you did. It came later and it wasn't until I was 42 that I ended up going down that path and going through IVF and ultimately having Maddie when I was 42.

10:07So I guess just as a message to our listeners there that there are so many different paths that we can take to motherhood through fertility. I guess what this brings up is that it is so deeply important to people, men, women, and everyone in between, you know, to actually take a moment to reflect on, if I'm in my mid to late 30s, is parenthood something that I want to be a part of my next decade? And if it is, what do I do about that? And it might feel a little like we're getting off topic, but I don't think we are because this is one of those incredibly critical decision points that enter into the discussion, doesn't it?

10:52Definitely. When you're deciding, is this the right relationship? And it's one of the things I get asked about the most. So I'm glad that we've had this discussion in our introductory chat. And now we're going to move on because, as you know, we love a three-part structure here on How to Date. Absolutely. We're moving on to three aspects of taking it to the next level. The first one is getting serious. The second one is compatibility. And the third is their past and your future. So let's start on part one, which is getting serious. We've already talked a little bit about timeframe, when you decide to take it to the next step.

11:35But I'm also interested in when you decide to quit. Yes. And that sort of sunken cost fallacy that we touched on. Yes. What are some of the things that you think listeners should be looking for in terms of making the decision either way? Okay. A couple of things to acknowledge here. One is that it's very common for partners to move at a different pace, particularly in that early phase. And this is a really good thing to be aware of because it can lead to so much awkwardness if you're not self-aware and socially aware. So what you need to be doing in that first period, you know, it might be three months, it might be six months, it might be a week, depending on how you move.

12:21But if we call it that phase one of the relationship where things are still ill-defined, you know, maybe you're not exclusive, maybe you haven't even talked about whether you're exclusive or not, things are still unsaid, you're just sniffing each other's bums. During this time, one partner may be moving toward that goalpost of the chat much more quickly than the other. So you might be in a position where you're the one pacing really fast, or you might be the one lagging behind. I think it's really helpful to call that out. And you can use humour in these kinds of conversations. I'm a huge one for bringing humour into awkward conversations and actually calling it out for what it is.

13:07You know, something I used to do when I was internet dating was one of the first things I'd do when I'd sit down with my date was say, isn't this hilarious? We've just met online and now we're meeting for the first time. I'm nervous. Are you nervous? And it would just break the ice and we'd both laugh at the thing, you know, the situation that we're both in, that we've put ourselves in and isn't it awkward? Ha ha, ice is broken. Let's have a drink. You can bring that into this as well as you're leading up to the chat, and I put that in capital letters, FYI, is calling out the awkwardness or the lack of ease.

13:51What would you call it? Synchronicity. Synchronicity. Yes. Perfect. That's the perfect word. because if one person arrives there before the other and they don't realise that the other person isn't there yet and they try to have the chat, it can be overwhelming for the other person. You really need to read the room here. And a good way to do that is by dropping out little hints or little pebbles to see how the person responds. So let's say you are the person who's moving a bit more quickly than your partner. I feel like you're directly staring into my soul. I feel personally attacked and you're completely bang on.

14:32We'll get onto that in a second. Yes, let's say hypothetically that you are the one. Hypothetically, let's say your names. I don't know. Liz.

14:43Yes. And you're really wanting to have the chat. What could you do? What little questions could you ask or what pebbles could you throw? So this is where I think it's good to go back to something we talked about in relation to the first date, which was those open-ended questions. So this is not putting your partner on the spot or, you know, trying to tie them down to something really, really confronting, but exploring things together. This is tapping into your curiosity again. So you might ask a question like, you know, when you think about us in a couple of years? What does it look like? Love that.

15:22Is there even an us? Do they cringe when you say the word us? I mean, that would be very telling in itself. Be a bit awkward, but very telling. So I guess this is about dipping your toe in the water. And, you know, I sort of, when it comes to building confidence in different areas of life, I often talk about expanding the comfort zone rather than jumping out of it. You know, I don't really believe about jumping out of your comfort zone into that anxiety zone. I don't think it achieves much. So what if you were to just expand the comfort zone by asking some of those open questions to just start gently gathering information about their perspective?

16:03And this is all about mitigating risk, really, ensuring that when you do initiate having the chat, that they're going to be receptive and it's going to be a soft place to land. So many things that I absolutely adore about everything you've just said there. Expanding your comfort zone rather than leaping out of it into restless anxiety is so key. And the open-endedness of those questions, I mean, at worst, what you end up with is an interesting conversation. And that's actually a wonderful place to be, to get into the practice of having conversations with someone who hopefully, if they are worthy of you, will end up as your long-term partner.

16:45That in and of itself is a great exercise. The other thing that I like about it is that we are so often sold this contradictory myth. On the one hand, we need to know who we are and what we want and what we're worth. And we need to stake our claim to it and say, listen, if you're not with the programme, then you're out of my life and be this kind of badass, Samantha Jones-esque figure. And this goes for someone of any gender. And then on the flip side of that, if you've had any experience of dating emotionally unavailable individuals, you will be only too aware of the danger of putting them off by being quote unquote quote, too much or coming on too strong.

17:35And so then you get into this situation of game playing where you avoid saying, where do you see us in two years? You avoid saying, do you see us going on holiday even? You avoid putting any pressure or any demands on this other person because they have made it so clear that commitment freaks them out. And yes, Because I do have experience of this. Yes, me too. And it's emotional fuckwittage of the highest order. Yes. So the chat. What is the chat? Is the chat, well, this is something our listeners need to ask themselves, isn't it? What is it that you want to achieve from the chat? Is it exclusivity?

18:17Is it having a very conventional notion of boyfriend, girlfriend, girlfriend, girlfriend, boyfriend, boyfriend? or is it something else like an exploration of polyamory? How would you suggest we determine which of those parameters is important for us? Right. And that is the starting point, isn't it? Deciding what we want, because this is all about us as an individual, because you're not really a couple yet. This is about as this individual with a sense of self, what does this self need in this relationship? So doing a bit of self-exploration is really important here, whether that's journaling or talking to a trusted friend or, you know, just meditating on it.

19:02Getting clear about what do I want out of this relationship at this phase in my life. Maybe it is about exploring something new. Maybe it's about expanding your beliefs about what relationships are. Maybe you get a sense that this partner is someone you could explore that with. So, you know, even if, you know, you spend a bit of time writing a letter to yourself about this next relationship you go into, self, is going to involve this, these opportunities for exploration. You know, maybe it's not the traditional format of a relationship. But what is important is that you're clear on what you want.

19:44Yes. Yeah. And actually, that's something I'd love to talk to you about is that idea of dating safety and consent and how aware we should be of these topics at this time? Oh, it's such an important topic and I'm so glad that you've introduced it here. It needs to be completely top of mind. You know, these days we're talking about enthusiastic, continuous consent. You know, it's so much more than just saying yes. And I think it's so much more than just in the sexual realm as well. You know, I think consent to move to the next stage of the relationship is also really important to have some agency over.

20:25But when it comes to the sexual side of consent, I think this is a really important one for listeners to be talking to each other about, not just with your partner, but with friends and having this conversation, getting comfortable with the language around consent. Because we haven't grown up having language around consent. have we? Certainly people of sort of Gen Y and Gen X, yeah. God help the boomers. I mean, there was certainly none of it there. So I think starting to get comfortable with language around I'm comfortable with this, I'm not comfortable with this. And for people who are initiating, are you comfortable with this?

21:09Are you still comfortable with this? Let's make that language really normal because it can be so sexy. Definitely. And that's something new that we need to introduce.

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22:22Exclusivity. That idea of asking someone to be your partner. And let's talk about sort of conventional relationship where we've decided that actually we're going to be faithful to each other. I think there's something that feels a bit immature about it. Like I can remember being in primary school and boys saying to me, will you go with me, Mel? You don't. And that was a definitive question with a definitive answer. And there you go. There's a line in the sand. We weren't girlfriend and boyfriend and now we are. So having that conversation as an adult now, for me, feels a little bit like an immature schoolchild thing to kind of say.

23:14So there's a re-education around that as well. I have learned a lot from, I'm going to mention a rival reality TV program here, Mel, I hope you don't mind, which is Love Island. I'm up for it. Yes. I've learned a lot about how younger generations conceive of exclusivity and being boyfriend, girlfriend, and how, or girlfriend, girlfriend, boyfriend boyfriend or however you identify and how many stages there are to it right which i'm not used to as a 46 year old woman right that notion that you can be seeing multiple people then you decide that you go exclusive so you're not seeing other people then after that you might decide to be in a relationship wow did you know that i've not heard that extra phase in the middle Yes.

24:00Okay, so there's exclusivity that might come before we're in a relationship. Exactly. Interesting. It's just interesting that I think different age groups will potentially have different approaches. And so if you are in an age gap relationship, for instance, again, that might have an impact on how it's perceived. And again, that's when you bring in your Mel Shilling open-ended questions. Absolutely. Or you do what my Gareth did. Can I share how he... Please. He signed posted that we were moving to the next phase. He demonstrated it for me behaviorally. And as a behavioral scientist, I really respected this.

24:38So we were at lunch. What he did was he got up from the table, pulled out his phone, made a phone call. And I thought, what's going on with this guy? How weird. We're midway through this lovely lunch. I'm not into this at all. Anyway, he came back and he sat down and I said, what was that about? And he said, oh, I'm just ending it with all the girls that I've been sleeping with. Oh, my gosh. And he, I don't know if there really were six or seven, but that's amazing. He gave the impression that that's what he was doing. He had gotten to the point where in his mind, he didn't communicate it with me, but in his mind, he got to the point at that lunch where he realised that he only wanted to be in a relationship with me.

25:27That's such a baller move. I guess it was. Yeah. Were there any other behavioural changes or that was the main one? That was the main one. It was pretty direct and strong and decisive. Yes. Did you then have to break off with all of the men you were sleeping with? I wasn't sleeping with anyone. I'd like to say that I was, but I really wasn't. No, because that would be game playing, Mel. So we don't have to do that. That's it. That's amazing. What a story. Okay. We've spoken about getting serious and the timeframe and what commitment means. Now let's move on to the second part, which is compatibility.

26:05Yes. Let's discuss compatibility in all of its facets. Let's start with a big one. Let's start with sexual compatibility. Yes. I'm very interested in sexual compatibility because I sometimes think that it can obscure the emotional truth in that I have been sexually compatible with many, many, many partners. Not that many, with some partners. And that has made me think that there's more there than there actually is. And it's one of those things that in those instances, although we never got far along enough the line to know, I imagine probably would have fizzled out, but the emotional compatibility wasn't there.

26:50But sometimes I think it can be really confusing. And sometimes like chemistry, as we discussed in a previous episode, sexual compatibility can build, can't it? It absolutely can. And I think you make a really good point in that sexual compatibility can mask deficits in other areas. Have you heard the expression drowning in dick sand? I think that's what you're talking about. But that used to be an expression that I use every single day. You must take it and adopt it. Drowning in dicks. And I love a pun as well. Yes. Yeah. Okay. That's what it is. Yes. And I've definitely seen this with friends.