How To Date: The first date

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1:05Welcome back to How to Date, the podcast that teaches you what you need to know about navigating modern romance. I'm podcaster and author Elizabeth Day. And I'm Mel Schilling, Relationship Coach. And every week we aim to give you the skills you need to show up as yourself on the apps and in real life. And I just wanted to let you know that if you don't want to wait each week for new episodes. Please join our wonderful community of subscribers where you can binge all episodes now, ad-free, all at once. Just follow the link in the show notes. Hi, Mel. Hello again. How are you doing this week? Oh my gosh, I'm so well.

1:46I'm so energised about our conversation last week. I cannot wait to get into the next one. Me too, me too, me too. you are wearing a fabulous pink dress. Thank you. If you're listening to this, I can't really do it justice. It's pink, but pink on a whole new level of pink. It's like a neoplatonic version of pink. And it's very fluffy. It's so fluffy. I just want to cuddle you, but that would be inappropriate. So I'm not going to do that. But I would consent. Okay. FYI. Thank you. Okay. Good to know. Good to know. So last episode, we chatted all about how to meet someone. Yes. On the apps or in real life of Charmaine Lovegrove.

2:22and this week we are going to talk about the first date so you have managed to translate the meeting into a real life date and the way that we're going to structure this episode is that we're going to talk a little bit you and I amongst ourselves and then we are going to talk about the communication planning and prep leading up to a first date the date itself and then the immediate aftermath. We have a guest. I'm not going to ruin the surprise. I'll introduce them later. But before that, I would love to know, Mel, if you have any good first date stories. Oh my gosh. I have so many and I don't know how much I want to embarrass myself on this podcast, but it's a safe space.

3:06Thank you. Thank you. I need it because this is, you know, I mentioned in an earlier episode about being a bit smug in my approach to dating and just not having that self-awareness. This is a classic example of that. I knew that he was a personal trainer and he had his own business. And this was unconscious. I went straight into business coaching mode. There is nothing sexy about this situation. I was asking him about his business strategy. What were his goals for the next three years? Seriously, I went into so much granular detail about what this guy was doing with his business because this was my comfort zone, you know, and I realised later that what I was doing was just keeping him at arm's length and that was my way of doing that and keeping him at arm's length and not showing any vulnerability whatsoever.

3:59And finish the date by marching him across the road to a bookshop and recommending three or four reference books for him to buy as his required reading to improve his business. Now, did you get a second date? Surprisingly not. Listen, I'm sure his business is thriving after that one-on-one coaching session. That is so interesting. And actually, it reminds me of my best ever first date story in terms of mindset. because by the time I went on this first date, I'd got to the stage where I thought there's nothing on the apps for me. It was that sort of low vibrating mindset that we spoke about in the first episode.

4:42And I turned up to this hotel bar for this first date and I walked in and I saw this distractingly handsome man sitting by the window. And then suddenly I'm now flustered and nervous. And it's one of those open plan bars and it has this sort of very architectural chrome chair with a narrow base that then fans outwards. Sit down, take my coat off as I'm sitting down, take my bag off, put my umbrella to one side and the chair starts wobbling. It wobbled fatally to one side. Within five minutes of meeting this distractingly handsome man, I am splayed out on this reinforced concrete floor. I've worn a short skirt and boots and I'm like, it was the most embarrassing moment of my life.

5:28everyone saw and it was a proper fall and a proper, you know, bruises the next day. Oh, you hurt yourself. Impact. And I thought, the only way I can cope with this is not to mention it and just to style it out. You're so British. Oh my God. I was like, I just can't. It's gone beyond. Never to see here. No one fell over. No. Until about an hour into the date, I was like, I need to go to the loo and I got up and he said, don't fall over and I was like, oh, there's real chemistry here. Oh, he broke the ice. And that man is now my husband. Oh, he well and truly broke the ice. Yes. And I well and truly fell for him in all senses of the word.

6:07You fell for him. And I love that story, obviously, because it's how I met my husband. Yes. But also because it goes into so much of what we talk about on this podcast, which is that idea of your perception, what you think is going to happen, as opposed to what actually does happen. What was the first date with your husband like? Oh, well, it's a little bit different in that we were communicating online for six weeks because he was in Adelaide and I was in Melbourne, so two very different states in Australia and, you know, about an hour flight. So we got to communicate via text really on that intellectual and emotional level before anything else, except I couldn't speak with him verbally because there was a barrier to that.

6:55Oh, accents. His accent. Okay. For those who don't know, my husband is Northern Irish and has a very strong accent. And one day during this six weeks of text communication, I thought, I'm just going to call him. And he answered. And I ended up having to say to him, I'm really sorry, but I cannot understand a word you're saying. Let's go back to text. Oh, my gosh. So I downgraded him back to text. So, yeah, how did you get through that communication period? And we just kept texting and organised the first date where he came over to Melbourne. And I did everything I would tell my clients not to do on a first date.

7:35I unloaded my entire life story and I started talking in a really high-pitched voice, really, really fast, really, really loud. I sounded like Mickey Mouse. He just leant across the table and very gently put his hand on mine. And he just said, it's okay. You don't have anything to prove here. Oh, my gosh. Gosh, that is so masterful. Drop the shoulders. That's so lovely. Wow. Okay, before we bring our fabulous guest out, I wanted to ask you about Married at First Sight, as ever. Because obviously on Married at First Sight, the couple's first date is their wedding day. What do you think you've learnt about first dates from witnessing that process?

8:20I think the biggest thing I've learnt is that chemistry will not necessarily be there immediately, but that's okay. You know, we have so many people who come into this experiment and say, chemistry's not there, I'm out. And I've seen people walk away because of that and miss out on something that could be potentially fabulous. Because there is so much kerfuffle on a first date, or in this case, at the wedding, there's so many different expectations. You're bringing in all your history, you've got nervousness, excitement, fear, all of that stuff happening at the same time. It is going to be very natural for signals to get confused and they do.

9:02Who knows how you're actually going to respond in such an unexpected environment. So when that happens on maths, one of the things that we say to the individuals within those partnerships is give it time, give it a moment, get curious about this person, try to understand more about what's going on with this person before you walk away. That's such a good note. And again, you know, we mentioned this a lot on this podcast, but that idea that we have conditioned through movies, TV programs, songs, is that the chemistry must be immediate for it to be love. And actually, sometimes, exactly as you say, by getting curious, by allowing something to build, there is a safety to that process that can end up being truly magical.

9:49Yeah. And even the flip side is true as well. You know, I've definitely seen couples who have instant chemistry and it burns bright and burns out really quickly. You know, so it is actually only a physical connection. So I just think you've got to give it time. Okay. Let us move on to our guest. So to help us with the next bit, which is the planning and preparation that goes into a first date, the date itself and then the aftermath. I am so excited that we get to introduce the fabulous Ryan Lange. Now, Ryan is a cultural producer from London. He is the winner of Netflix's Big Flower Fight. And that was despite having no actual training in floristry.

10:30It's so impressive. He's the host of BBC Three's The Big Proud Party Agency and the official party planner for Drag Race UK. Is there a better job? I don't think there is. He's also the creator of East London's alternative Bollywood night Hungama. And after recently becoming single, Ryan has been on the dating scene. Ryan, welcome to How To Date. Thank you for having me. Do you like our plants in the studio? I honestly have no idea what plants or what. I just, I went in there and tried my best. Oh my gosh. Can I tell you, I'm a florist's daughter, so I'm so in awe of you winning that. Yeah. I must go and watch it.

11:07You have to. It's a slow burner and it gets more and more exciting. And then it's just one of those things where I just I just learned in the trenches. Wow. And kind of like dating and basically just just super succeeded everyone. Wow. I was about to say that is a metaphor for the dating process. Yes. So I know that you have so much to share, particularly from your perspective of queer dating as a South Asian guy. And I'm really interested to get into it. So let's start with planning and preparation. what questions Ryan do you think we should ask ourselves before we're getting ready for a first date should we set a time limit what do you mean by that I mean like setting a two-hour time limit so saying for instance yes that's me at five but I've got somewhere to be at seven yeah I thought you meant like a time that's like I'm only going to date for six months I mean no I'm less prescriptive on that I mean six months wouldn't have been long enough for me I personally feel like when you're getting ready for a first date it's always good to have control variables yes so like I would like to do something that makes me feel like I'm safe, I'm comfortable, I have an escape route.

12:08I'm not lying because you don't want to be like, oh, I have somewhere to be and then spend the whole time trying to like introduce yourself and be honest and authentic and then also be like, by the way, I'm lying. I've done that, sorry. You're so right though. It actually does make you feel a bit tense because you're aware that you've got this big line coming up and you've got to pretend that you've got some sort of conference call at 7pm. It's like when you have to go to the toilet and you're just like squeezing your butt. You don't want to do that on a date. No. It's the same feeling. Yeah. You want to squeeze your butt maybe in a different reference point.

12:37Yes. Just not. But maybe that's if the date goes well. Got it. A sphincter clenching date. Yeah. I mean, that's kind of hot, isn't it? Hashtag. 100%. Yes, I think that the timing is a really important one. And I love what you said there, Ryan, about feeling safe. You know, I think for that first date, because you're really, you know, you're sussing each other out at that two-way assessment process. You don't know yet if you're going to have that sense of safety. and to be able to say, I've got somewhere to be at 8pm, but to actually have somewhere. And, you know, I think the best thing to do is to meet up with some other friends who've been on dates as well, have a bit of a dating club going, because that can be so much fun and so validating to sit there and have a bit of a debrief together.

13:19We've just all spent two hours with a date. Let's all discuss. Yeah, exactly. I think that's a great idea. And just to leapfrog off that, I think it's also good to just chat with someone who kind of can empathize and have compassion for you like i i've learned so much about the evolution of the way that younger people think now and so when i got back into the dating scene my communication was so much more transparent and so much more honest and um i have to thank the gen z's for that but like basically like i i can have conversations about where my levels where my boundaries are like what i'm willing to put up with or not but before i would just like go in there and be like use me even as a punching bag if you need to i want to hear about your ex like i'll pay for the drinks like i used to be that person now now i'm much more protected so i think it's important that you realize that when you're embarking on this do you mind my asking how old you are 27 if this is being filmed for tv i'm 37 are you you look amazing thank you so much wow wow okay and how did you learn to establish that clarity you said you had a lot to thank gen z for but how did you learn well i mean during my relationship trials and tribulations i was hanging out with a lot of younger people because working in such cultural fields and I have so many amazing young assistants.

14:32And so just listening to them chat about their dating life or polyamory or even having like moments of no contact with people, I was like, wow, this is really aware. And so it just made me realize how much we don't ask ourselves what we need. I would love to talk a bit more about that idea of getting to know your needs and your worth from both the cultural and agenda perspective. So Mel, would you say that there is a gender difference in terms of the amount of people pleasing you see in the dating market? I don't think it's gender based. I think it's personality based. You know, I really do. I mean, sure, there are stereotypes.

15:12But I think really, if you look at people, you're talking about different personality types and different levels of self-esteem. You know, self-esteem plays so clearly into that first date, doesn't it? Because it's about how you're entering into that dynamic. Are you coming in, seeing yourself at that lower status or is it higher smug in my case, or are you coming in as an equal? So I don't want to believe that that's about gender. I really do think that that's more about where that person is at and what they're bringing. I agree with you. I think it's almost like an awareness. I think gender does play a role, but I think it's about someone's awareness of gender, of constructs, of classism, of privilege.

15:55So if someone like, if I go on a date and I meet someone who immediately starts making a reference to my skin color or my culture, I start to wonder whether or not I feel comfortable. So it's important to like know when you have those feelings and how to diffuse it and regulate yourself. And so a lot of that is just self-reflection and a therapist. Oh, yes. Shout out to all of the therapists. They are heroes of our lifetime. I'm including you in that, Mel. okay this is a big question go for it should you look up your first date online before you meet them baby give me their first name and i'll find their linkedin i'll know where the last three addresses were and i'll know exactly like what they ate for dinner not stalking at all no i'm like a stage five finger oh you will do that every time yeah but i'm really honest about it i'm like listen i am a leo virgo pisces like do not mess with me i will find out everything including your social identity number okay and how has that served you um i've got a lot of restraining orders but i feel safe but i'm safe i i find i'm a very proactive person i take interest in things very easily and so like i don't ever want to lose that quality so i'm just really honest about it i'm like by the way i'm obsessed with alba and like i'm happy i'm happy to tell you that and like if It's weird for you.

17:10Let's just view souls. Sorry, I'm about four minutes behind you. And I just got the Obsessica. What is it? Obsessica Alba. Yeah. I love that. It's amazing. Obsessica Alba. Oh, yeah. I've just got it. Oh, Gen Z. I'm a K-boomer. Yeah, I know. I'm Gen Z, but back the whole alphabet. I'm Gen X. Loud and proud. Yeah, I'm Gen X. I'm not telling. Am I a geriatric millennial? Anyway. Yeah. Should you look them up online beforehand? Yes, absolutely. Should you? Yes, absolutely. And again, I'm coming from a safety perspective here. And of course, you won't find everything because some people are very clever with their digital footprint.

17:50But absolutely, the more information, I think, the better. Because you want to know if you're entering into a connection with someone who, for example, demonstrates misogyny or racism or homophobia online. You know, these are things that will be deal breakers for a lot of people. So if you find out this sort of stuff in your background check, you might not choose to go on the date with the person. If the information's in the public domain, go learn what there is to learn. Like, don't just look at the book, read it. And then like find out what you want to take from it. Like, I don't make any assertions or assumptions about anyone when I'm learning about them.

18:23But I just like to know the information. What I think is important to mention is that there's this term that I just recently realized that's getting really popular and viral at the moment. It's called limerence. it's like when you take an information from someone then you start to believe a different reality of them and so like if you start reading information you start making assumptions about what they're like or who they are or what their belief system is but until you actually meet them and speak to them you won't truly know and so you need to stay present and so this is why first dates are so important because like it's not about like what you digitally see it's not about like how they communicate with your texts it's about how you feel when you're with them in person I think that's such a good way of putting it.

19:00Do your research but stay with an open mind. Yeah. So how much thought goes into what you wear for a first date? Okay, so I am a very flamboyant queer person. So I always like to dress to my personality or to the most popular Taylor Swift song that I'm listening to. But it switches. It could be hip hop one day as well. But I always have to find a main artery of who I am. And so I don't try to like go overboard and I definitely don't try to be something I'm not. Love that. Mel, any tips? I think there's something really empowering about playing to your strengths. You know, if I was to ask one of my female clients or a female identifying client, because this does seem to be gendered, tell me all the things you love about your body, she'd probably look at me blank.

19:49If I said, tell me all the things you hate about your body, well, there would be the list. But if we can tap into one thing that you like, even if it's your nails, it doesn't matter what it is, but highlight that thing. If it's your toes, put bright red nail polish on those toes and hang them around in front of your date. Who knows what it might be? But make that the hero of the piece and put your focus there. It's not easy, but it makes sense. And when you do it, it can be incredibly powerful. For some people who might not feel like they are able to isolate a part of themselves that they want to emphasize, I think it's really important for them to just take care of themselves.

20:28Like I think most people and like this is why having a gay best friend is amazing. Go get yourself a gay best friend because this is good advice. Absolutely. You basically just need to not go out and tell all your girlfriends you're going on a date and have five glasses of wine so you're exhausted by the time the date comes up. You don't want to try to slot in a date. So you're like having a busy schedule and then all of a sudden you're rushing to meet this person and you can't wait to get it over with because you're so tired. you want to take time you want to like meditate go to the spa like have a quiet like in night where you're like watching a rom-com and just like chilling and spending time with yourself and then when you go on the date you feel calmer i think a lot of people like mentally stress themselves out about how it's going to go and what they should do that when they get there they're just not present and then they're so insecure are you available to be everyone's gay best friend can we make you available for download okay we'll put a link in the show notes to ryan follow me dm me i will not get back to you but i will read them and laugh final question on the planning phase how much should we text or banter online through the apps before we actually meet is there a hard and fast rule that you stick to ryan so for my recent r &d like what i've learned is to try to set up a date as soon as possible so if you're if you start to smile i feel like something on the inside just be like hey listen i'd love to meet up with you I'm free on these dates what works for you and if there is someone who you should be hanging out with they'll set up a date and they'll adhere to those like timelines I think that's a very very good tip because I often found it almost impossible to translate the banter and the text into a real life meetup people would just disappear it would just fizzle out and actually the thing that changed that for me was offering set times and dates So when it came to meeting my now husband, one of the things that I really appreciated about him, there was a consistency to his textual communication in the run up to the first date.

22:26And then eventually he said, I'm traveling a lot for work. These are the slots that I have coming up. I'd really like to meet you for a coffee, because that's low risk, because you might hate me. Or lunch, slightly higher risk, but you'll get a free meal. Or would you like to meet for an evening cocktail for about two hours in the evening? and I went for the evening cocktail option. Yeah, of course. And there was something that I really liked about his sense of security and what he was offering. I completely understand where you're coming from. There is something so beautiful when someone speaks from a secure place.

23:01Like I think we live in this world where we're all trying to figure out what our attachment style is like and we all are so addicted to the ones that are really dangerous for us because it feels the most familiar. And I think like when you experience someone who's giving you a secure attachment style, is actually like really like revitalizing. It's really sexy. Yeah, you feel really calm and really chill. I think it's quite impressive that you chose to go for this cocktail in the evening because I find that to be the easy way out. Because as soon as you have a drink in front of you, two of those in and then you start to forget who you are.

23:30Yeah, that was exactly what I did. So there you go. Welcome to my podcast. I wasn't as enlightened as you. Yeah, well, I mean, I am now. I mean, I've successfully failed at dating. This is why I'm here to tell you what I've learned. and um i think what's really important to mention is that like it's so nice to have someone who's aware of their neurodivergence so it sounds to me like that person is like hyper aware of how they'd like to be communicated with and so they're projecting that onto you and it's making you feel secure and so you're you're like meeting that halfway which is really nice you nailed it it also it made me feel secure but it also confronted me a bit and we'll get onto that in the next episode because we're talking about communication but if you're not familiar with something it's almost like the safety of it to me there was a risk that it felt unsexy which was my own dysfunction because of what we've mentioned before mel about that sense of insecurity feeding into oh this must be passion then because i never know where i stand and that's one of my major frustrations and one of the things i'm passionate about correcting in our mindsets you know it's so I recently had cause to look back through my WhatsApp history and I saw some texts that I had sent people in the run up to first dates where I thought I was being so funny and cool.

24:47And I read them back and I was like, baby girl, you were not. It was so, there were so many paragraphs. Do not go back. Always go forward. Full paragraphs. Yeah, I'm sorry. I was texting so much. There was too much because I'm a writer. I was like, no, just reel it back in. Oh my gosh. Anyway. Okay. What is the subtext of that text? Yes, exactly. When it comes to first dates, I think a couple of things that you mentioned that I think are really key here is that you need to not wonder whether or not you are worthy or successful enough or secure enough or sexy enough. You will find yourself having a more successful date if you just believe that you're sexy to begin with.

25:23I love that. And I think self-talk is key, particularly when we're talking about that first date. what would you say to someone who was about to go on their first date but they were absolutely plagued by that negative self-talk i think i would do some sort of like primary i guess exercises where you have to like write down what you're thinking and then just like rip it up and then like just like like get it out and throw it away i think it's important to just do things that you love and remember that being weird is like the new normal like people people are so boring and it's like you don't you don't want to be with someone who's bland or beige or like chicken breast that's unseasoned you want to like you want to be with someone who has a bit of spice and so like embrace your oddities and embrace the things that you don't like and you want to be with someone who finds them fascinating and curious and wants to hang out with you more be a seasoned chicken breast yeah is on you mantra there it is there we go that'll be our t-shirt exactly

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27:24let's move on to the date itself have you ever had a really difficult clash between your expectation and the reality when you got onto the first date ryan every single time i wake up i have a clash but when it comes to first dates i found myself before being like i'm gonna take them to this fashion party and then we're gonna get in and then we'll go for drinks at this place And then I want to go to this movie or this event. And like you immediately just set yourself up for a lot of things that could potentially go wrong. So the best dates I've been on have been ones where it's really calm and chill, where we just meet somewhere that's comfortable for both of us.

28:00We get to know each other. And then we just don't bring all of that baggage and all those experiences that I'm comfortable with in into the situation. What about as it pertains to photos specifically? So if we're talking about apps, I definitely had multiple experiences where the photo, quite rightly, that the person had chosen with which to advertise themselves was exceptionally flattering. I don't know how I would behave if I met someone who wasn't like their pictures. Like that's like hardcore cat. Has that not happened to you? It's happened to me. Big point, I think, goes back to what we said earlier about moving from online to IRL as quickly as possible.

28:37And if someone is catfishing or doing any kind of scam, they're going to resist meeting you in person. Not to quote bridesmaids, but you can't trust anybody. Yeah. But like, I think what's important is that people understand like how much they're willing to play into things. Like people pleasing is so key in this. But at the end of the day, on a first date, like sometimes you end up not doing things that you don't want to do or you do things that you don't want to do. And like, I think it's really important that you just have an awareness of it. Other than catfishing, any don'ts for a first date.

29:10So I'm really interested in the idea of conversation because it can be such a nerve wracking and strange structure, the first date, that it's very difficult to access that part of you that is able to chat easily. And a lot of people suffer from social anxiety or have neurodivergence or anything, any measure of things that makes that kind of conversational opening quite difficult. What tips would you have for that, Ryan? Okay, so I have a lot of tips, actually. So the ones that come to mind are don't overshare. I think it's so easy to just show up and all of a sudden start talking about your ex or your mommy issues.