Jennette McCurdy on Reclaiming Her Voice

13:41Jennette McCurdy:Oh, Jeanette. Well, I'm moved by your response and I just want you to know that I see you and it's important. No, please take your time. Thank you. I really appreciate you saying that. You look so pretty when you cry. Is that an inappropriate thing to say?

14:01Elizabeth Day:You really do. That is so kind and it is so felt from you. The generosity and the depth and insightfulness that you ask with is it's not always the case. And I understand that this is a part of the job. And, you know, I really want my, I care about my work. I put my heart and soul into, you know, into half his age for years. And this is a part of the job. And I'm grateful to have a platform where I'm able to do this, you know, these various press interviews and things to be able to have a platform for the book. I want people to read it. I care about people reading and I think it's really, you know, it's it's worth their time.

14:34Elizabeth Day:And I don't think I think, you know, people really ought to value their time most of all. And I do think this is a book worth their time. But it can be challenging when, you know, when when things are things can get personal or when, you know, people will ask questions about the memoir, which I wrote years ago. And it's something I'm so proud of. But ultimately, it's like to sometimes be kind of touted out and just be like, so that abusive mom of yours. It's like, can we just not for a second? And so I really appreciate you saying that. Of course.

15:05Jennette McCurdy:Let's get onto your failures because your first one is about the novel. Yes. Because you were writing a different novel and this is your first failure is that you didn't finish it. So tell us about that novel that you didn't finish.

15:18Elizabeth Day:I was. And I think this is such a key kind of element of the creative process. And I hope it's useful for somebody, for any creative out there. But I was working on another novel that I really, really liked. I was about, you know, six months in, pretty deep in. I had had, you know, multiple drafts at this point and was really in the thick of it. And I think this thing happens with creative ideas where initially, you tell me if you feel this way, if you agree, right? Initially, they're so attractive. Yeah. They're so sexy.

15:46Jennette McCurdy:Such a good way of expressing it.

15:47Elizabeth Day:It's the honeymoon phase. Yeah. You're dating. You're having sex a lot. Like, it's great. And then it becomes work. Inevitably it becomes work. and the honeymoon phase kind of fades. And it's like, okay, now we're really in the thick. We got our pants pulled up and we're in there. And then every other idea you have ever had starts to look real hot. And you think, if I could just not be in this, if I could just date that other one for a little bit, it'd be so nice or they're so beautiful if I could just. And so that's what happened here where I was six months into this other process and I was so deep in the project and half his age was just really pushing itself up on me.

16:23Elizabeth Day:And it was so intense that it got to the point where it was undeniable. And I said, okay, I will give half his age a week. I will, because I can't stop thinking about it, I will put the brakes on this other idea for a week. I'll work on half his age. I figured I would get it out of my system and then return to the other one, sort of going, oh, I'm so grateful to be in this long-term relationship and we are meant to be together. And that is not what happened at all. And 30 days later, I had a first draft of half his age. I just physically could not return to the other one. I'm very much a bodily writer.

16:53Elizabeth Day:And so, I mean, clearly I'm emotional. And so I kind of have to just work with it. I can't work against it. It doesn't work for my life, I've learned. So I had to go, okay, the excitement's in half his age. Let me get this out. I got the first draft out. And then I went back into the second and third, you know, every subsequent draft from there. And now, you know, nearly whatever, 20 drafts and two years later, this is clearly the one that was meant to be because it's the one that is. So fascinating.

17:16Jennette McCurdy:So much I want to ask you about that. That idea of feeling it in your body and having learned that you have to pay attention to that instinct is so powerful. Do you think that part of the reason you couldn't ignore this is because you'd spent so many years in a kind of control dynamic where you weren't able to follow your instincts? Oh, my God.

17:40Elizabeth Day:The only person who's put that that is so brilliantly said, such a such a wow, insightful connection. Yes, I think that's exactly it. I am, you know, I had eating disorders from age 11 through my early kind of 20s. And there was so much body denial. And I really, you know, it's what I had to do for the time. It's an important part of recovery is really accepting like, you know, you did what you had to do. And that's what it was for me. But it is so sad to me looking back on it, the amount of, it was a real betrayal to my own body and a real denial because of feeling things so intensely. and knowing if I would have literally come into contact with any of my emotions, all they would have been telling me would be to get out of all the situations I was in.

18:25Elizabeth Day:And you can't do that when you're 14. So, you know, thank God I had some sort of defense mechanism, some sort of coping mechanism. It might sound strange to say, given that it was such an unhealthy one, but it really was important to getting me through kind of that phase. It was all that I had, But there was so much body betrayal. And now, you know, as a 33 year old woman who is in touch with her emotions, painfully, like so in touch with her emotions, it is so clear to me that there is nothing more powerful than a woman's intuition. I believe that about all of us. I believe our bodies have inherent knowledge that if we try to kind of analyze our way, oh, and we can maybe if we can know our bodies know and denying our bodies is nothing but a disservice to our to a better life path for ourselves.

19:12Elizabeth Day:if we could just accept our emotions, allow our emotions, let them inform our decisions, I think 100 % of the time puts our lives on a better path. And that's definitely something that I continue to kind of relearn over and over through the years. Wow.

19:29Jennette McCurdy:That is exactly what I believe. Thank you so much for putting it into words. When this idea kept pushing itself against you, does that work, that phrase? Yes, I think it does. Yeah.

19:43Elizabeth Day:It's like it has to be, it had to be birthed. Like it was so in my body, you know, it was just, it's time.

19:49Jennette McCurdy:You had an age gap relationship when you were 18. Yes. When you first had the idea, did you think, is this another memoir? Was there ever a point where you thought, am I writing myself here?

20:01Elizabeth Day:No, there was never, never a point or a question in my mind about that because so much of kind of, the book, the novel is told entirely through the point of view of protagonist Waldo and really her voice was feeling very um clear to me and who she is and and um and what she wants and how she operates and it is you know she's entirely her own character and the the novel is entirely its own sort of story and I'm aware people will project me onto it because I just know that's going to happen I do think it would be a misread if that if if people do that but um but I get that that's kind of part of it although I will say to your point of being in an early, you know, an age gap relationship when I was 18, I do find it really important that there's some sort of significant personal connection to whatever it is that I write, especially fiction, I would say.

20:52Elizabeth Day:I think it's so important there's something deep in my bones that I really, really understand about kind of the core of the subject matter that I trust myself to tell that story. I trust myself to carry that kind of story. And then also it's just so much more fun to be able to build out and expand and get into various characters' points of view. And it's quite liberating to not be limited by life experience.

21:16Jennette McCurdy:And I read somewhere that you, in a later draft, had included more from Mr. Corgi's perspective, not in his words, but you were kinder to him in later drafts, even though he comes across brilliantly, but ultimately is this kind of pathetic figure. It's Waldo who has the power by the end of it. There's this one scene, it's just so telling where um he's he's he's left his marriage and he's able to blue tack up his poster of a clockwork orange and it's and and there's one corner of it that just keeps flapping down and waldo sees it and it's such a metaphor for just how his life is just sort of flapping down yeah um but what was that like for you sort of setting yourself that challenge of seeing of not demonizing him.

22:06Elizabeth Day:I'm glad you mentioned this because I think it does go back to kind of the not being finger wagging or moralistic. In earlier drafts, he was a bit more mustache twirly villain, a bit more on the nose, right? And I would read those drafts back and feel I could feel myself kind of writing defensive, both wanting to defend Waldo, protect Waldo rather, protect Waldo. And then also, I think, wanting to defend myself. This is how I feel about this. This is a bad situation. This is how I, the writer, feel about this. Right. And I could feel myself kind of intervening. And it's did not read well. You know, it didn't read well.

22:39Elizabeth Day:He wasn't believable. He wasn't grounded. Ultimately, I do believe that people are trying their best and failing miserably. Everybody. I think that is just a part of life. It's who we are. It's who I am. It's who everybody I believe is. And I also think nobody ever thinks they're the bad guy. So I know we're going to be reading this and we're going to be, most of us, if not all, if not 100 % of us, will be viewing Corgi a certain way and placing that judgment on him. But he doesn't feel that about himself. He believes he is making the best decision that he can at any moment and that he has the best of intentions.

23:13Elizabeth Day:And so I wanted that to kind of come through. And so I really had to sit with the point of view of what is it like to be a 40 year old man who has really not fulfilled any of the things that he thought, hoped or expected that he would. And I did I did feel for him as uncomfortable as that is to say. I do think it was important to writing him believably and ultimately to believing Waldo because she has to be a reliable narrator. The moment we discredit her as a narrator is the moment we're off, knowing that we're all older than her. We're reading this thing from somebody 10, 20 years younger than us.

23:47Elizabeth Day:You know, how do we make sure that we don't discredit her? And if she's painting him a certain way, we're going, well, then why did you fall for him in the first place? And it was so important to really make sure that Waldo was reliable.

24:00Jennette McCurdy:That's such a great point. How much, if at all, did that process help you recategorize or reanalyze your own age gap relationship? Hmm.

24:16Elizabeth Day:Oh, I I'm thinking now I'm like, I don't even know if I was I think I was so kind of in the thick of it that I wasn't really processing my own. I think ultimately some processing did wind up happening. Some closure was kind of found through the writing of it, but I wasn't really putting my own experience on it or kind of reflecting back to me. That might have been distracting or or limiting, you know, in a way. Maybe I would have put more judgment on it or something. I don't know. I'm working this out in real time here, but it really did feel like I was operating from, you know, I believe Mr. Corgi, he really feels real to me.

24:49Elizabeth Day:Waldo feels so, so real to me. And so it's kind of just working out the dynamics through who these people are.

24:59Jennette McCurdy:The other relationship that I found so compelling in this novel is the relationship between Waldo and her mother. I think you paint that really beautifully. Why was that important for you to explore?

25:11Elizabeth Day:I think family dysfunction or complicated family dynamics are something that I will always explore. I just wouldn't know how to write, you know, clean kind of healthy family dynamics. Like I would have not the first idea. Yeah, I'm literally like trying to think of what a line would be with a healthy dynamic. Here's your dinner, sweetheart. Have a great night. How was school? Like, I'm bored. Yeah. I'm bored. um yeah I think there's something sort of so much more juicy and interesting and it's also just it's what I know and I think it is writing is oftentimes a way for me to kind of find closure and and um work through things that I don't have the answers to myself sit with those um uncomfortable aspects of of families and so I think I think that's just something I'll always write yeah um I'm so if I can ask why are you so interested in failure I'm really curious

26:09Jennette McCurdy:Oh, what a lovely question. I think the short answer is that I think failure has stripped me of my old certainties about how I thought life was going to be and introduced me to the truth of who I really am. Wow And what I mean by that is like So much of life is driven by ego And also by social conditioning What we've inherited from our parents What we've inherited from society or culture Or the amount of rom-coms we've watched And so I grew up with this very sort of conventional notion Of what my life might be like And it did not go according to that plan By some metric And so I found myself feeling like such a failure At the age of 39 I'd gone through a divorce I tried and failed to have children.

26:57Jennette McCurdy:And online at that stage, it felt like everyone had perfect lives on Instagram. And so I was interested in the disconnect because it also made me feel alienated.

27:07Elizabeth Day:Wow.

27:07Jennette McCurdy:Wow. And since then, I've kind of become obsessed with it. I've learned so much through it, through talking to people like you who are so brilliant and wise and smart. I learn every time I have a conversation like this.

27:19Elizabeth Day:Wow. So it's sort of a switch at about 39 and just kind of life events. Wow. Yeah.

27:23Jennette McCurdy:Yeah. That's why I think you're so ahead of your time. You're 33. You are way ahead of where I was. I mean, thank goodness. Oh, I don't know about that. That's why. It makes so much sense.

27:34Elizabeth Day:And I really, I completely agree. I love sort of the premise of the podcast. I do think that, you know, the universe, whatever you want to identify it as does know more than we do. And I think there are so many things. And I'm so sort of this. I'll set my sights on some. I'll set my eyes on one thing and I'll just go. that's what it has to be and it needs to be this and I and I think I know best and I never do literally I can treat anything in my life where I've thought this is what's going to be best for me life goes actually no and it shows me what is going to be best for me absolutely so moved by

28:08Jennette McCurdy:that you've totally nailed it and and my not having the baby that I thought I always wanted has actually been, I think, the uncovering of my life purpose. Wow. Part of it is that I now strongly feel that part of my purpose is to speak for those people who don't and can't.

28:29Elizabeth Day:Yeah.

28:29Jennette McCurdy:Yeah.

28:30Elizabeth Day:Yes.

28:30Jennette McCurdy:So things like that are just so meaningful and profound.

28:34Elizabeth Day:Yes. You never really know why things are happening until after they've happened.

28:38Jennette McCurdy:So true. The thing that you do know is that you can have more faith that you're going to survive it. Yes. Because of how much you've survived already. Yes. Yes.

28:46Elizabeth Day:Oh, I can navigate this. Oh, you know what? I'm more adaptable. I'm more, this word can be kind of cringy or I find it kind of cringy, but resilient. Yes. Because I was thinking like, well, I'd rather not have to be fucking, can I say fuck? Oh, please swear I love that. Okay. Yeah. I'd rather not have to be resilient. Wouldn't it be great? Or like, oh, you know, challenges build character. I could afford less character. Like, I don't need to be resilient. I can afford less character. Let's go, baby. But, you know, I guess these are, these are, these just happen, you know.

29:15Jennette McCurdy:Jeanette McCurdy could afford less character is the best, is just the best line. You know those times late at night when you're scrolling and you see something online that you've been looking for and you just need to buy it right there and then. You click on the link, you add it to cart before hitting checkout. But then that sinking feeding as you realise you don't have your card anywhere near and don't want to get out of bed. But that's when you see it, that purple pay button that has all of your information saved, making checking out as simple as a quick tap of your screen. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and has so many benefits.

29:57Jennette McCurdy:You can set up your own design studio, use Shopify's AI tools that write product descriptions and even enhance your product photography. You can get the word out like you have a marketing team behind you. Easily create email and social media campaigns wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling. See fewer carts go abandoned and more sales. Go sign up for your one pound per month trial today at shopify.co.uk slash fail. Go to shopify.co.uk slash fail. Hey, you didn't hear this from me, but Normal Gossip is back for its ninth season Join me, Rachel Hampton, as I share the juiciest gossip from the real world with some very special guests.

30:45Jennette McCurdy:This season, we're bringing back some old friends, a Radiotopia buddy, and for the first time ever, a Nobel laureate. That's right. We have Malala on season nine. Normal Gossip is out on all your favorite podcast platforms. We're Molly and Tom and we're getting married. At Defining Love on Love Island, we are now navigating real life and wedding planning. On Nearlyweds, we share the honest highs, lows and the chaos of getting hitched. From budgets to guest lists to family dramas and the things no one prepares you for. We'll have new episodes every Tuesday, so make sure to subscribe to Nearlyweds on YouTube.

31:27Jennette McCurdy:And listen wherever you get your podcasts. let's get on to your second failure and i want to preface this by saying how grateful i am that you are going to talk about it oh i know it will speak to so many people and it's that early on in your eating disorder recovery you had lots of as you put it in quotation marks slips or failures can we go back to the genesis of your disordered eating yes and the first memory you have of it

31:58Elizabeth Day:I woke up when I was, I think I was 11 years old and I'd had a lump in my breast and I thought, oh no, my mother had cancer when I was two years old. She, you know, but it eventually recurred and she passed away when I was 21, but she had breast cancer when I was two. And so I was always kind of hyper, hyper, hyper aware of breast cancer is a scary looming thing. You know, it's hereditary. I could get it at some point. So I'm 11. I feel a lump in my breast. I think I've got breast cancer. I'm dying. Of course, it was just breast tissue. It was just a little bit of breast tissue developing. And my mom kind of told me that I was like, oh, you're getting boobs.

32:34Elizabeth Day:And it was a very hysterical, intense reaction. She really, you know, had a lot of fear around me growing up. She didn't want that to happen, I think, for a number of reasons. That's its own podcast. But so she taught me calorie restriction. And she was really, she really struggled herself. I didn't know this at the time, of course. I just thought my mom had very specific eating habits, which included not eating most of the time. She'd just have a tea with nothing in it for breakfast every day. Yeah, she had these sort of quirks around her eating that she then really taught to me. And it was as gross as it is to say it was a bonding opportunity for us.

33:17Elizabeth Day:I perceived it as a bonding opportunity. For me, it was like a fun sequence in the parent shop where they're like doing hand dives, but we're like counting calories together. And it just seemed like this little secret that we have that nobody else knows about and we do it in private. And how great because that makes us even closer and we're best friends and we're so enmeshed and codependent. And so I learned, you know, how to calorie restrict and was really, really intensely restricting my calories and very quickly developed anorexia and was hyper, hyper monitoring everything that went into my body until eventually I was, you know, a doctor.

33:50Elizabeth Day:And, you know, the doctor pulled my mother out of the room and said that she was, you know, concerned that I may have anorexia. It's the first time I've heard this word. And I thought literally my first thought was like, oh, that sounds like a dinosaur, like anorexia. But I could tell by the tone of her voice and how she was speaking with my mom that something was wrong. Because I think, you know, as kids, we're so perceptive and we pick up on these emotional cues better than many adults. Because by adulthood, we've stifled and suppressed and we're blocking, we're just avoiding at all costs so many times, so much of the time.

34:19Elizabeth Day:But as kids, we're just hyper in tune with these cues. So I knew something's wrong, but I also couldn't go near the reality of what that wrong thing was because my mom would never do that. And I needed my mom on that pedestal to survive. So it took a long, long time before I was able to kind of recognize that. This is something that I recognized, you know, after my mother passed at 21, 22. This is not something at 11 I'm like, well, I've got anorexia. You know, I didn't I wasn't piecing it together.

34:44Jennette McCurdy:I'm so sorry that you went through that. and this is not a podcast about your excellent memoir which by the way I listened to on audio oh that was a whole experience and you you did an incredible job of narrating it but that memoir opens with you at your mother's bedside as she's dying saying I've reached my goal weight because you felt like that was the thing that would most excite her and keep her alive believe that with

35:10Elizabeth Day:all my heart yeah and it's also funny it's also darkly comic and it's hilarious Yes. I'm like, mommy, I'm almost 86, whatever it was, pounds.

35:21Jennette McCurdy:Yeah. So your mother died and then you felt able to explore recovery. How did that happen?

35:31Elizabeth Day:I think because it had to, you know, it got to the point where I had kind of hit a rock bottom. I had lost a tooth from at this point, the anorexia had morphed into bulimia. So yeah, From 11 until 23. And it was really, really, that was incredibly intense and complicated because people don't really talk about this, but sort of bulimia to any person with an eating disorder feels like a failure off the bat. Like you've failed. You're never aiming for bulimia. You're aiming for anorexia. You failed at anorexia. You landed at bulimia. So you're constantly kind of just sitting in a cycle of shame. And there can be, you know, I say this with caution.

36:11Elizabeth Day:This is, there's truly nothing worse than an eating disorder. And I believe it is such a colossal waste of time and often happens to really smart people who have so many better things they could be doing with their time. So I say it with this caveat, but there could be a power to anorexia. There could be a real sense of, you know, accomplishment to it that is, of course, grotesque and deeply disturbed. But bulimia, there is none of that. It is just you are mired in shame. You are walking around feeling like everything you do is just you are a loser, a failure. It feels awful. And I think I couldn't tolerate that anymore.

36:47Elizabeth Day:I lost a tooth from bulimia. This was on a flight to do a really intense press trip. And a number of things had kind of collided at once. And I think it was just like, OK, I have to I have to do I can't avoid this anymore. I have to deal with it. It's time. My body finally, finally was just saying, I can't have you betray me anymore. Hey, you're going to have to listen. I mean, thank God for my body. It finally said we're done. We're done.

37:11Jennette McCurdy:Can I ask you what I hope doesn't sound like an ignorant question? Sure. When you were in the grip of your eating disorders, did you feel physically weak?

37:22Elizabeth Day:Yeah, exhausted. I'd also be sort of, you know, during the bulimia phase, it was, you know, I'd run 13 miles multiple days a week. And so it was constantly kind of in this state of exhaustion, which I think was helpful in avoiding emotion because there was no time. There was no space to kind of face anything. I'd feel the anxiety build up and then a purge. And then I'd feel kind of a relief and I'd feel so tired that I'd fall asleep, you know, and this would be I mean, throughout I would purge many times a day. This is, you know, but there was just I was operating from such a place of phenomenal exhaustion that there was no time to go.

38:05Elizabeth Day:Oh, wow, I really don't like much of my life. And how do I put it on a path that I do like? And, you know, there was no space to consider anything else because it was just perpetuating the cycle, the addiction.

38:15Jennette McCurdy:Wow. Thank you for explaining it like that. Yeah. So what was the first step in your recovery? Was it therapy or was it a decision that you made internally?

38:26Elizabeth Day:It was a therapist that wound up this, that did not kind of work out with that therapist, which I also think is key is you got to find the right person. But then I did find the right person in, I was on a shoot in Toronto and I found an amazing therapist who did a blend of dialectical behavioral therapy and schema therapy or schema based therapy. I don't know the exact name. And that worked really effectively for me. It's very pen and paper. You're very much, you know, a scientist experimenting with your life and just getting it all out on the page in terms of like there's a lot of different methods and homework every day that you're doing.

39:02Elizabeth Day:And that was transformative for me. I don't know if I would have recovered if I hadn't had those forms of therapy. And I also unfortunately don't think they would work for everyone. But I think if you have a personality type similar to mine, that's the way to go. I think that therapist and those forms of therapy were transformative.

39:21Jennette McCurdy:Was this the therapist who asked you to consider what good your eating disorder was doing for you?

39:27Elizabeth Day:Yes, that's exactly it. I found that fascinating. Isn't it so intriguing? Very early on in recovery, because I'm sitting there assuming, okay, I've hated sort of my body for so long and I've hated it. There's so much complexity there. How do I then turn this eating disorder into the villain so I can get over it? That's what I thought would be the case. And instead he's saying, maybe the first session, you know, what value does your eating disorder bring you? And I'm sitting there going, I'm paying you good money to get over this. I don't want to know what value it brings me. Like, help me get over it.

39:58Elizabeth Day:And he's saying, well, it's actually very, very important that you find the value because we need to find something of equal or greater value to bring in because there will be a void. There is going to be a void in your life when this goes away. And it is going to be, you're going to need something to fill it. and it was fascinating to sit there and go okay what value has it offered me and to piece that together and to really I mentioned earlier sort of appreciating it and that was a key part of recovery. Is it appropriate to ask you what that was? Let's see if I can remember well you know I sort of touched on this but but I didn't have space for my emotional experience which I think was too much for me to carry at that time I don't think I was at a place where you know certainly at 11, 12, 13, if I'm going, if I accept the reality, okay, my mom taught me an eating disorder.

40:45Elizabeth Day:My mom's teaching me that is like, honey, you've got to leave. Where to, where, where do you go at 11? So it was kind of a, it was a protection. I think it was protection from the, the weight of fame, from the confusion of having an identity that was not my own, that was so public facing and feeling like my own identity was faced by no one. I mean, no parent, no adult figure, no, there was no one. I think that's, while anecdotal, I think it's very common for people who grow up in the spotlight where it's just you are a product, you are a good, and you are viewed as that. You know, even if people are well-intentioned, it's just really, really, it's tricky for people to separate fame from a person.

41:32Elizabeth Day:Like, it's tough.

41:34Jennette McCurdy:I'm very moved by that. this failure quote unquote specifically addresses your your slip ups in recovery yes and i think that it's very important for people to know this that it's not linear recovery authentic recovery can never be linear so um tell us a little bit about those slip ups and what they taught you

41:58Elizabeth Day:so this is another kind of aspect early on in recovery um therapist had said hey give me a pamphlet and told me the importance of not letting slips become slides. He said, this is not going to be, you know, one-stop shop. You say you're ready to recover and then that's all that it takes is just conviction and determination and a strong, you're good. Discipline. Discipline.

42:20Jennette McCurdy:Yeah.

42:20Elizabeth Day:Yeah. Especially, you know, to a person with an eating disorder, like there is that discipline is so much a part of kind of the dysfunction of it that to assume that discipline is all you need and then to have a slip up. It's so common. Also, black and white thinking is really common for people who experience disordered eating. It's so common for that person to go, oh, I've had a slip. I'm a failure. It's all gone to waste. Okay, I'm off the wagon. So I might as well just have another slip and another and another because now I'm a failure. So this is how I identify. So I'm a failure. So I'm a failure.

42:56Elizabeth Day:So and you're just, again, perpetuating that cycle and you're stuck in it and just kind of mired in it. And he emphasized the importance of not letting slips become slides. So when you have a slip, you sit with yourself and you go, what can I learn from this? If you have a slip, a failure, you go, what is this telling me so that I can prevent it from happening again? What is all the information that I can glean from this? This is actually useful for me. That truly, yeah, changed my life. There were slips. There were many slips. But being able to go, I don't have to let this become a slide every single time.

43:30Elizabeth Day:What can I glean from this? I will take my slip. I would literally sit and I'd say, okay, I had four slips this week. Let's get to the bottom of them. And we would explore all of those slips in depth. And, you know, what were the vulnerability factors surrounding those slips? And why did this happen when? And it was such a useful part of the process.

43:50Jennette McCurdy:All failure is data acquisition, I often say. And that's the perfect example of it. Brilliant.

44:25Jennette McCurdy:Hey y 'all, I'm Maddie And I'm Poodle And together we host the podcast Reality Gaze We are two ridiculous homosexuals Who love nothing more than talking about reality television

44:34Elizabeth Day:And tearing in a new one So whether it's 90 Day Fiance, Love is Blind, Love After Lockup Or any other trash TV show about lonely hearts looking for love

44:43Jennette McCurdy:Your gay besties got you covered y 'all New shows every week Follow and listen to Reality Gaze wherever you get your podcasts It's Reality Gaze Let's fly

44:56Jennette McCurdy:How do you feel today you are in alignment with your body?

45:05Elizabeth Day:Checking in with my body. It's sort of buzzing right now. It feels pleasant. It feels safe. That's great. It feels really safe. I notice, you know, if I feel constricted or if I feel my body feels a no. Oof. And so much of my life, going back to kind of the accommodating and the people pleasing and all of that was about suppressing my no. And how can I, I feel it. I feel the rage. I feel it in my face. This is how I'm in touch with my body. I started listening to it. And then it's like, it's tricky when you start telling your body, when you start really listening to it, it goes, okay, here you go.

45:39Elizabeth Day:And it like throws you so much and you go, oh, can I handle this? And we can, you know, we can, but it's, but it doesn't mean it's not intense. And so, you know, thinking back to those, those times when it would be so much about, how can I turn my no into somebody else? It was more important to make my no into anybody else's yes. It didn't even matter if I respect that person, liked that person. It was just about accommodating them and being more convenient for them. And now I listen to my no's.

46:08Jennette McCurdy:That is so fucking incredible. I feel this interview is just, it's so serendipitous. Like everything that you are saying is feeding directly into my soul.

46:20Elizabeth Day:Oh, my God. I'm so glad to hear it. Oh, my God. Thank you.

46:24Jennette McCurdy:I feel like not only do we speak the same language, you elevate the language that I try to speak. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

46:30Elizabeth Day:Is there a no coming to mind? Whether or not you want to share, but is there something coming to mind? Yes. OK, OK. Great. Wow.

46:35Jennette McCurdy:For years, I didn't have a voice. I thought I did, but it wasn't my voice. and I was in a very dysfunctional, emotionally abusive, romantic relationship. And I used to get tonsillitis a lot. And it was only afterwards that I made the connection that I was like, oh, that's because I literally kept losing my voice. And recently I was lucky enough to go, bear with me, to this Swiss wellness clinic. Okay, I'm in. And this woman, she was a bioenergetic medical expert. I don't know what that means, but she was amazing. And I walked into her room and she said, oh, you're very tight here. And she like clutched her own neck.

47:17Jennette McCurdy:She's like, you're so tight here. You're breathing from your chest. You're not breathing properly. And she basically identified something that I'd lived with all of my life without knowing, which is that I wasn't sufficiently in my body. I wasn't fueling my body with enough air in order to be able to speak. She said, you actually have a very deep voice. And she got me to do these rounds of breathing. And my voice, literally, I became like Old Man River. But it felt so rooted. Embodied. Embodied is the word. And I was like, this is my voice. And I feel so at one with the earth.

47:53Elizabeth Day:Wow.

47:53Jennette McCurdy:It was an extraordinary revelation. Wow.

47:56Elizabeth Day:So was your voice quite different before? Was it sort of? Yeah.

47:58Jennette McCurdy:Well, I feel like it's got deeper. Maybe Hannah can tell me what it has. but it was it just felt in my trapped in my chest it was like I was scared literally scared of going deeper it's like coming from a sturdier kind of place yes wow wow and like you although we have different life paths I was just an extreme people pleaser and it meant that I lost all connection with my own desires and I ended up saying yes to really unhealthy things and spoiler alert that ended in divorce and all of that sort of stuff. And now I'm remarried to someone who I really feel able to communicate with. And I haven't had tonsillitis touchwood since.

48:37Elizabeth Day:Wow. Wow. It's incredible what our bodies tell us. Yes. Wow.

48:41Jennette McCurdy:And that piece around rage.

48:43Elizabeth Day:Yes.

48:43Jennette McCurdy:Again, I thought I was sad for so long. And then my best friend, the therapist was like, do you think you're sad or do you think it's an acceptable mask for what you're actually feeling? Ah, yes. Which was anger.

48:55Elizabeth Day:Yes, certain things are allowed, but heaven forbid a woman feel rage. There's all these quotes, hell hath not, what is it?

49:00Jennette McCurdy:Have no fury like a woman scorned. Yeah, it's like, yeah, damn fucking straight.

49:04Elizabeth Day:I know. Yes, watch out. Watch us, exactly. Instead, it's just this thing that's like, oh, we can't be a scorned woman. No, we are scorned. Yes.

49:11Jennette McCurdy:We're angry. Yes, fucking right. Oh, Jeanette, this is the most amazing conversation of all time. Thank you. Thank you. Your final failure is relationships.

49:22Elizabeth Day:Yes.

49:23Jennette McCurdy:I can't wait to get into this because it's got such a happy ending. Spoiler alert. But failed relationships, what did they teach you?

49:30Elizabeth Day:Oh, my God. Well, at the time, you know, there's so much. I would have this kind of this feeling when I would be at the on the cusp of a new relationship where it'd be this instant attraction. And it was this all consuming. I have to be with that person now. Now, now, now. More, more, more. Please, please, please. And the relationships would really start out with a deep, deep intensity. um there's also a real kind of certain kind of person I would I would tend to fall for but there was just so much dysfunction so much dysfunction like an amount that's embarrassing to admit that I think I actually think a lot of us experience this level of dysfunction but I think again we're kind of just tiptoeing around it and not really talking about it but it was real chaos and real kind of shameful behavior I think on both of our parts certainly on mine I'll own mine but I just had this feeling like something's not right ultimate like underneath I just like this is not how I want a relationship to look this this this is too reminiscent not you know not where my parents relationship it didn't go that far but um but it went too far and it didn't feel like what I wanted from a relationship even remotely I wanted something healthy I wanted something sturdy.

50:48I wanted something that felt really like we were both growing separately

50:54Elizabeth Day:as individuals and together. And that was not the experience. I finally just started getting like, honestly, self-help books. And I would just kind of see myself in all these relational patterns and, you know, taming your, I think there's one called like taming your outer child and books on whatever codependency all these different kind of um potential issues in relationships and I took that really seriously and as I remember the relationship that I was in when I kind of started getting all these books and I could really feel the fear in him as I was getting these books because it was like oh you could sense kind of a threat oh what does this mean and I completely understand that I empathize with that it can be oh this person's changing will I be safe you know but ultimately I remember taking kind of a I love a list and I had taken a list to him of like here's the things that I wish were different I wish it was this this this I wish I were more this way I wish we were more this way and and then he said well I kind of see a path too for the relationship and he just like drew me a little figure and it was like it sounds really it's I'm just gonna say it sounds worse than it than it was but maybe it's not the case it was literally like a doodle of just like a rainbow and it's like and then you know we're there at the end with kind of a pot of gold he's he's sounding worse than he was he was really really really he was a deeply kind person but right then it was just like that sinking feeling in in my gut and I know okay this has got it this is not gonna this is not somebody who wants to do the work who's willing to work with me I'm not saying that a relationship has to be from the get-go perfect roses and daisies, but I'm saying it has to be somebody who's willing to find a common language and a common engine that will get us through conflict.

52:44Elizabeth Day:You have to be able to resolve conflict effectively as a couple or it's just not going to work because there is going to be conflict. And if people say, there's people who I know who say like, oh, we've never had conflict. You're hiding shit. You're suppressing.

52:55Jennette McCurdy:You are in denial. You are lying.

52:58Elizabeth Day:And also there's this element of, have you heard of walk away wife syndrome? No, tell me more. Okay. It's sort of this idea that you have cried so many tears throughout the course of the relationship that by the time you are ready to leave, you're wiped out. You're almost stone cold. Oh my God. Right? I was a walkaway watch. Right? I feel like it's so common for us women because we've tried everything. We can. We've said what we need as many ways as we know how, as many times as we know how. We have said it and said it and said it and said it. Then we feel needy and we feel like we're too much for saying, can you can you can what if you just please or how about and then you're trying to change yourself to be more accommodating for him meanwhile no changes are happening I mean not always the case but a lot of times and then it gets to the point where it's okay you know what I am so emotionally exhausted and depleted that I have literally nothing left to give so I guess now I have to leave because I feel nothing for you anymore I feel nothing and that was the case for me every relationship that I left it got to a point where there were there were no tears left there was no pain left.

54:03Elizabeth Day:It was just a very kind of almost stoic breakup that was confusing to them because then they're going, wait, what? What's happened? And it's what's happened the past year and a half has happened. Have you not been here? You were here too. It's been so painful. It's been so painful. And of course, there are great moments as well. You wouldn't be in it, but there's so much pain that's just brutal. And so I think those realities, the walkaway wife syndrome, and then I need somebody who can kind of resolve conflict with me and be willing to be in the trenches with me was transformative. And also somebody who's compatible, like it's so basic.

54:38Elizabeth Day:And yet I think we overlook it and think that we can wedge ourselves in or maybe potentially get them to wedge into what we need. And it just doesn't, it's just, you've got to be similar in some key ways or it's not going to work. I really, I believe that.

54:50Jennette McCurdy:The walk away wife syndrome has explained something to me that I really struggled with in myself because I have felt shame around the fact that I was able to leave. And you're so right to identify that numbness. It wasn't a lack of feeling it was having felt too much.

55:07Elizabeth Day:For too long. Yes. You're wiped out. Yes. You're exhausted.

55:10Jennette McCurdy:Let me ask you something else about therapy adjacent, which I think part of my journey has been parenting my inner child. I think part of the reason I'm not a parent in the conventional biological sense is potentially because I needed to do that work before I was ready for the romantic relationship that I'm now in, which is one of equals. Do you feel you went on that journey too?

55:35Elizabeth Day:A hundred percent. Yeah. Inner child work was key for me. Have you ever done the artist's way?

55:42Jennette McCurdy:I haven't. And I've got an inner resistance to it and I'm not sure why. Really? Yes. I know you've done it several times.

55:49Elizabeth Day:Wait, yes. I've done it three times. I'm like, I'm embarrassed. The third time I did it with a friend and she like stopped, you know, six weeks in or something. And she's like, I stopped and I was like me too because I was too embarrassed to say that I was doing it for a third

56:00Jennette McCurdy:time I think it's just that do you have to get up and write three pages yes yeah the thing is is that my life already I have so much writing and so much work in it yeah not that it's work would it's so interesting the resistance I have is interesting fascinating that's another podcast

56:16Elizabeth Day:episode so I'm really curious I hope to offline with you about that but yeah the the morning pages are very much just like stream of consciousness you can't the idea is I if you You can't even just don't even pause your pen. Just kind of keep it flying. It can even be it can be complete. You know, I took a sip of tea. Why am I writing this? I hate that I'm writing this. This is so boring. I have to I have to write so much for work already. This is, you know, whatever. And you're just kind of getting the idea being you're getting out of your system. The things that are will be rattling around all day anyway.

56:44Elizabeth Day:So might as well get them out on the page. Ultimately, the way I view it is really a course in inner child healing.

56:51Jennette McCurdy:What can you tell us about your partner who you've been with for nine years?

56:55Elizabeth Day:Um, he's my best friend. I'll check in with my body. He's my best friend. I mentioned earlier sort of this instinct of, um, that I'd had with, with previous, um, partners. It doesn't even feel like the appropriate term, to be honest. Um, but with people that I'd been with where there was that instinct of like, I have to be with them now. It was this urgency. I met him through a mutual friend. And I was instantly extremely attracted to him, but had a sense of calm in my body. There was zero urgency. This is from somebody who had a hijacked nervous system their whole life. Like, for there to not be urgency is odd.

57:34Elizabeth Day:That's why I noticed it. No urgency. And this sense of, this person is very significant to my life. I don't know how. I don't have to know how. I don't have to know when. That's fine. This person is significant. And then, you know, we were friends and we'd kind of hang out in group settings and then we'd actually lost touch for over a year and then he called me out of the blue um I thought it was a butt dial because I hadn't heard from him and so on I thought that's so random and then he called me a second time and um I honestly can't remember whether I picked up when we spoke then or whether we reconnected later but then we got coffee and we talked for like four hours and we've been together for nine years

58:12Jennette McCurdy:nine years that's crazy I'm so happy for you thank you it makes me feel calm when you talk about him I'm lucky enough to have met him because he's actually here he does have a very calm aura doesn't he?

58:24Elizabeth Day:he's a really sturdy person he's the person that every one of his friends goes to for like I need advice everyone sort of rock

58:36Jennette McCurdy:Jeanette, I've adored every second of this conversation thank you so much for trusting me and for opening up in your beautiful eloquent compassionate heart-led way I don't for a second take it for granted and I am so grateful

58:54Elizabeth Day:for the existence of you thank you you too you too

59:02Jennette McCurdy:please do follow how to fail to get new episodes as they land on apple podcast spotify amazon music or wherever you get your podcasts please tell all your friends this is an elizabeth day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.